Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: nifoc on <07-11-11/0549:03>
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Sorry if this has been asked before but...
The books seem to disagree on wether a skinlink is just a modifier on the gear you are using (as per SR4A p. 328) or wether you need some form of implant or other method of conducting the signal. This may be due to different authors understanding the technology differently or just a misunderstanding on my part, but I'd appreciate a clarification or a link to an official ruling if there is one.
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My understanding is that Skinlink uses your own skin's capacitance to transmit the signal.
Therefore, you Skinlink your PAN Hub, and you're pretty much good to go for things within Skinlink distance of your body (which is defined as anything worn on your person, basically).
Cyberware implants that are entirely internal may need to be modified, but I think most things work if they're in proximity to your skin. For instance, my street merc can't use his Skinlinked comm to run diagnostics on his Bone Lance unless he enables WiFi or jacks in for DNI...but his eyes, weapons, decoy comms, etc, are good to go.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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Other than I would assume that you need skincontact with the items in question, that was my first impression as well.
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Other than I would assume that you need skincontact with the items in question, that was my first impression as well.
In one of the descriptions, Unwired or SR4A, it states that Skinlink range extends out a bit, through clothing, so items in pockets or on your person are fine.
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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I guess it is a matter of taste, I just find it odd that anything that does not use a direct contact can be immune to wireless hacking.
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I guess it is a matter of taste, I just find it odd that anything that does not use a direct contact can be immune to wireless hacking.
Not immune...you just have to get really close. :D
Look at it this way - a weaponized commlink and a good Palming skill, and that smug Street Sammi with the Skinlink could be in for a surprise.
Come to think of it...I wonder if you could, with the right antenna array, perform Van Eck phreaking of someone's Skinlink? Hmm...but how to beam a signal back...hrmmm...modified tangent galvanometer...coherent beam...*mutter mutter*
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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I guess it is a matter of taste, I just find it odd that anything that does not use a direct contact can be immune to wireless hacking.
Despite it being not quite accurate, the military still uses the EMF model for describing wired communications (and as a justification for why damn near everything has to be clad, sheathed, or otherwise armored).
Basically, if I can use a magnetoscope, electroscope, or modern o-scope/spectrometer to find even slight variances in the electromagnetic field around, not on, a pair of wires, I can start drawing a data sample and I can derive your 0's and 1's. You can do this from a phenomenal distance with the right tools. The range of the broadcasting signal is far less important than the range of the detection tools, IRL.
Shadowrun, however, is not rooted in reality.
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Well you could read the signal range as how far away you can read a signal. It would still only allow two way communication when within signal range of the lowest rating device (and SR rules bother little with one way broadcasts).
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my question is what equipment actually are suggested to have a skinlink? The only thing with skinlink as a mod I've seen are weapons but what about smartclothes or goggles/glasses ... I didn't seen any kind of addon for those types of items.
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my question is what equipment actually are suggested to have a skinlink? The only thing with skinlink as a mod I've seen are weapons but what about smartclothes or goggles/glasses ... I didn't seen any kind of addon for those types of items.
Skinlink is in the corebooks gear section and can be added for every single piece of gear in the game, for weapons it might cost one mod slot if using those modding rules.
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my question is what equipment actually are suggested to have a skinlink? The only thing with skinlink as a mod I've seen are weapons but what about smartclothes or goggles/glasses ... I didn't seen any kind of addon for those types of items.
P. 328 of SR4A states that any item containing some form of electronics can be fitted with a skinlink.
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The advantage of skinlink is that it's a "hardwired" connection (Of sorts).
But, speaking as a computer tech, the only way I can see the skin working as a networking agent is as a Hub at best. Datastorms galore. Putting more than three or four items on the system would cause datastorms galore. From that standpoint, I'd suggest limiting it to things you certainly don't want hacked, such as a Smartgun.
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The advantage of skinlink is that it's a "hardwired" connection (Of sorts).
But, speaking as a computer tech, the only way I can see the skin working as a networking agent is as a Hub at best. Datastorms galore. Putting more than three or four items on the system would cause datastorms galore. From that standpoint, I'd suggest limiting it to things you certainly don't want hacked, such as a Smartgun.
Agreed. Had this been an implant, like the old smartlink before all this newfangled "wireless" stuff, it would have been less of a problem, but connecting everything to everything else through your skin is a datacrash waiting to happen already in progress.
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Eh. Go with old fashioned armored optical cables with routers.:)
-k
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hear now! don't run away from new ideas. A properly prepared hacker/drone rigger could have some serious fun with a properly employed skinlink mod on a drone. the drone itself would be slightly smaller than medium size (body 2 or 3, maybe 1). a small walker or an anthroform, quiet, unassuming, preferably cute or resembling a cleaning or repair drone (the less likely it is to be shot proactively, the better). when the individual who is known to be cybernetically enhanced isn't paying attention, the drone will attach itself to the unsuspecting sammie and the rigger will have a wonderful shot at gaining control.
obviously the sammy would get willpower [maybe strength] rolls to try to resist what his tech is doing, but that would have to be with his meat parts, since his previously stated tech would be following the riggers orders.
this would be a direct hack upon a persons meat body, likely effects would be inherently based upon what the victim possesses for cyberware (storytellers call). Likely systems affected from this method could be as follows: wired reflexes, muscle replacements, cyberlimbs, anything with a dni interface, etc... systems decidedly not affected by this method are as follows: anything organic, free floating nanobots (unless hive is contacted), and various items not connected via dni.
obviously this technique would do little against those who are not heavily cybered, and is extremely risky against fellow hackers who would then posssess a direct link back to the rigger/puppetmaster. resistance rolls would likely be exclusive actions, (the victim is fighting his own body), whether it ends up as a willpower or hacking challenge.
so... anyone rethinking skinlink yet?
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The advantage of skinlink is that it's a "hardwired" connection (Of sorts).
But, speaking as a computer tech, the only way I can see the skin working as a networking agent is as a Hub at best. Datastorms galore. Putting more than three or four items on the system would cause datastorms galore. From that standpoint, I'd suggest limiting it to things you certainly don't want hacked, such as a Smartgun.
Dunno, wifi is basically a hub like media. As such there should be little difference in behavior between using wifi and using skinlink. In a sense one is using the skin to put a faraday cage around the PAN.
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Its a pretty simple idea similar to wireless networking. You have an identification packet traveling through the same media as every other identification packet, but your device (weapon, goggles, comlink, whatever) all have their own individual address and only receive information sent to that address through your skin. Same way wireless devices communicate using a handshake system. "Hello Ares Predator IV, are you there?" "Yes I am here" "Go bang bang bang" bang bang bang "Action completed"
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Dunno, wifi is basically a hub like media. As such there should be little difference in behavior between using wifi and using skinlink. In a sense one is using the skin to put a faraday cage around the PAN.
Wifi is a Router- or Switch-like media. There aren't many Wireless Hubs that I've seen, but quite a few Wireless Routers with the rare Wireless Switch. The CommLink certainly works as a Wireless Router.
Just did a quick search, there are Wireless Hubs, but I haven't seen any in use anywhere personally. Of course, most of the places I go are either owned by fellow techs, or have had one of my fellow techs or myself asked for how to set things up.
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Dunno, wifi is basically a hub like media. As such there should be little difference in behavior between using wifi and using skinlink. In a sense one is using the skin to put a faraday cage around the PAN.
Wifi is a Router- or Switch-like media. There aren't many Wireless Hubs that I've seen, but quite a few Wireless Routers with the rare Wireless Switch. The CommLink certainly works as a Wireless Router.
Just did a quick search, there are Wireless Hubs, but I haven't seen any in use anywhere personally. Of course, most of the places I go are either owned by fellow techs, or have had one of my fellow techs or myself asked for how to set things up.
Your looking at it the wrong way. On a hub setup, every device plugged into the hub can read the signal any device send into the hub. Is that not also the behavior of a wifi signal or a skinlink signal? Hell, back in the day ethernet did not use hubs but a coax "bus". But for ethernet it was no difference, as the behavior is pretty much the same. Listen for a quiet spot in the traffic. transmit package. read package back. if result is garbled, wait for a random time and try again. Wifi is in no way switched, as anyone within receiving range of the transmission can pick it up. That one can get switches or routers with a wifi antenna built in do not change this fact.
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hear now! don't run away from new ideas. A properly prepared hacker/drone rigger could have some serious fun with a properly employed skinlink mod on a drone. the drone itself would be slightly smaller than medium size (body 2 or 3, maybe 1). a small walker or an anthroform, quiet, unassuming, preferably cute or resembling a cleaning or repair drone (the less likely it is to be shot proactively, the better). when the individual who is known to be cybernetically enhanced isn't paying attention, the drone will attach itself to the unsuspecting sammie and the rigger will have a wonderful shot at gaining control.
obviously the sammy would get willpower [maybe strength] rolls to try to resist what his tech is doing, but that would have to be with his meat parts, since his previously stated tech would be following the riggers orders.
this would be a direct hack upon a persons meat body, likely effects would be inherently based upon what the victim possesses for cyberware (storytellers call). Likely systems affected from this method could be as follows: wired reflexes, muscle replacements, cyberlimbs, anything with a dni interface, etc... systems decidedly not affected by this method are as follows: anything organic, free floating nanobots (unless hive is contacted), and various items not connected via dni.
obviously this technique would do little against those who are not heavily cybered, and is extremely risky against fellow hackers who would then posssess a direct link back to the rigger/puppetmaster. resistance rolls would likely be exclusive actions, (the victim is fighting his own body), whether it ends up as a willpower or hacking challenge.
so... anyone rethinking skinlink yet?
Oh noes! :o
But wait - DNI trumps your external attack for the Cyberware, and a Cyber Safety system is zero Essence cost (making it effectively free from the point of view of most Street Samurai), so their weapons will be able to override any attempt to gain control, as well.
Come to think of it, I may have my merc jack his commlink in. The Wifi is off, but it's Skinlinked as his PAN hub...on the other hand, I don't think anyone's ever had their brain fried via Skinlink. Hmmm...hacked commlink vs PAN-fried brains. Maybe I'll just leave that Skinlinked, after all!
-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
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One point I always give for datacables, especially for smartguns, is that they can be used as lanyards.
Very handy when you need to drop something damned fast, but still have it available to you.
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All wireless media behaves as a hub.
Every signal for every device communicating in a wireless cell must receive and sort out which signal belongs to each device. The wireless device itself most likely operates as a switch, which is to say that it makes switching decisions based on layer 3 information (and is thus faster than) rather than layer 4 information (like a router), less encapsulation to get to the information it needs.
It is in no way impossible for wireless devices to have 2 way communication when only one device has a signal range adequate to reach the other device. This is exactly how modern mobile phones work. I've explained this in much greater detail in other threads already.
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We have a pair of brothers in our gaming group who are always messing with eachothers characters. Such as getting into street fights, pulling pranks, driving off in the getaway car before their both in it then going around the block and picking them up. At one point one of them was playing a technomancer and the other was playing a sorta jack of trades. The one playing the technomancer would hack the others stuff and spam him with silly stuff just to mess with him. They never took it to the point where they jeperdized the others life, just brotherly fun. So the one playing the jack of trades starting putting skinlinks on anything he could to prevent this, such as his guns, his smartlink goggles, his comlink, his hand held radar.
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Ok here's the thing, skinlink is pretty dumb. It's a piece of magic tech "that just works". If it followed even the slightest bit of real world common sense it would be vulnerable as all get out to any sort of jamming, we're talking very very low signal strength modulated just right. Instead it is "magic wires", unjammable, mostly unhackable. By a one line statement in unwired cyberware is also presumed to be skinlink capable if you want it, so it's not as much skinlink as it is bodylink.
Now having said that cyberware hacking is also stupid as all hell as it basically discourages people to play cybered characters and instead get more Magicrun going on. I tend to presume that anything that doesn't have a direct benefit from being network capable will not be connected to any kind of networking. There's no benefit to putting your cyberlimbs on your pan so their out, ditto you wires, internal air tank etc.. Cybereyes and ears start to get somewhere as at least those you might be piping your pan in order to send it to somewhere else. But the most I allow people is subtle data maniplation (generally allowing the target intuition + logic or perception to notice the manipulation) or blanking the sense completely at least until the target can spend a simple to reboot their gear.
So in closing, skinlink is great for getting your gear to be accessible to your pan and for reducing your broacast footprint, but unless your specifically running separate links for your gear all skinlinked and another comlink that you use for communication with the outside world your not really closing any vulnerabilities just making them harder to get at.
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unless your specifically running separate links for your gear all skinlinked and another comlink that you use for communication with the outside world
Why wouldn't this be standard practice for anyone remotely conscious of their personal network security?
-k
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In part because it's a hassle, even smart people are suckers for convenience so you could be inconvenienced all the time to protect against a very very small occurance, or you could have all your stuff just works. Secondly a lot of players on here seem to want to have a level of security that in my mind most of their runners wouldn't have the knowledge to implement or see the need to. As a personal rule of thumb unless a character has hacking/cracking at at least one I presume they've gotten the big stuff but are missing some of the smaller fiddly bits and back doors.
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In part because it's a hassle, even smart people are suckers for convenience so you could be inconvenienced all the time to protect against a very very small occurance, or you could have all your stuff just works. Secondly a lot of players on here seem to want to have a level of security that in my mind most of their runners wouldn't have the knowledge to implement or see the need to. As a personal rule of thumb unless a character has hacking/cracking at at least one I presume they've gotten the big stuff but are missing some of the smaller fiddly bits and back doors.
You want proof of this?
I could tell you stories of having to support wireless home networks that were as secure as a screen door on the ISS.
I could also tell you about callers that were almost as stable as Windows ME.
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Seriously, though. Most runners AREN'T solo acts. A heavily cybered gun bunny would be toast going against megas without a hacker. And the hacker's job isn't JUST to hack through security so the gun bunny can kill everyone. The hacker, or a skilled rigger, is supposed to assist the team with their electronic securities.
First thing my hackers do when they first join a group, is to hack every member of the group. For the mage with just a commlink, have an agent stand-by ready to spam call that thing, setting it off without warning. For the cybered gun bunny, take him over, and make him dance. For the sprawl gangers... They got some nasty second-hand cyber that's easier and cleaner just to shut off.... And it keeps their tempers in check if they can't pummel you immediately... As for anyone else, just wave an RFID detector over them, and tell them what they had for breakfast.
There is NO excuse for a runner not to know about that stuff. The hacker of the team should be telling them all of this, for self-preservation, if for nothing else. His hoop's gonna get shot at too...
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First off, if your GM is letting you hack ware and make the street sams dance theres no help for them it doesn't follow the rules even in the slightest. Secondly hacking your teammates ware would get you killed at the tables I play at no matter how helpful you were trying to be.
As the old saying goes, if your going to tell someone the truth be funny or they'll kill you. Most characters take exception to their internals being tampered with.
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First off, if the Street Sam doesn't know NOT to link his 'ware up his commlink, it's going to be set-up that way. It makes it easier for the Mega's and KE to shut down the cybered trolls. So, it's sold and installed that way. Only makes sense. Secondly, cyberlimbs are computerized. There is a controlling computer in there, as simple as it may be. If a hacker gets into your cyberlimbs, they can make those limbs do ANYTHING within normal operational parameters. It's in Unwired if you don't believe me. Page 102. RAW, pure RAW. In fact, it uses taking over cyberlimbs as an example.
As for making them all look foolish, you point out that if you were a security hacker in a corp, you would have been able to end them all by now. Better to know, and have you fix their crap, than getting dusted by the Megas. Those that don't see it that way, well, the hacker already has access to their cyberlimbs. Let 'em take a long walk off a short pier.
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It's one thing to TELL people their stuff needs to be secured, and where it need work.
It's entirely another thing to crack their security and mess with them to prove a point.
The former will probably be treated as helpful advice.
The latter in Shadowrun will get you killed.
-k
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It's one thing to TELL people their stuff needs to be secured, and where it need work.
It's entirely another thing to crack their security and mess with them to prove a point.
The former will probably be treated as helpful advice.
The latter in Shadowrun will get you killed.
-k
I'm sure there are plenty of characters who would catch you trying to hack them, then respond to your excuse by beating you to within an inch of your life to demonstrate how helpless you are in the physical world. Those are the patient ones. The rest will just kill you.
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Helpful advice is taken as "Yeah, whatever. I'll do that when I get around to it." The only way to get that Sprawl Ganger to take the electronic world seriously, when he hasn't grown up around anything but physical threats, is to scare the piss out of him in a safe environment. He wants to constantly be on the look-out for payback, you let him know in no uncertain terms that you put a nice little back door into all that security you set up for him. He wants to push it, tell him you could make his cyber-arm choke him to death. This isn't an ice cream social, people. These are all borderline sociopaths you're playing. People from hard lives, making a living out of being an expendable resource. It's not D&D, no one is out to make themselves into big heroes. They're in it for the nuyen, or because there isn't anywhere for them to go but up.
So, no, being nice about it isn't always going to work. And when it doesn't, your character gets dead because the meat character could have sat down with you for ten minutes, while you made some simple adjustments to his cybereye's security protocols. Instead of cleaning his gun menacingly for the fifteenth time that day. Now, OUT OF CHARACTER, you're sitting around a table with people that hopefully have been playing for years in many different games. And they should know that if your character gets geeked by the team, you're only going to make something even MORE annoying. Hehehehe. My personal threat for the rest of the group is to make Cat-in-the-bag Man from Attitudes. But, back on target, skinlinks.
The rules are vague, but it's not like the makers of Shadowrun can INVENT a type of technology that will not only do this in game, but be able to completely satisfy all the electronic techs they have playing it. If they could do that, they wouldn't be making games, they'd be making millions on patents. So, you have to have some suspension of belief for the game to work. Skinlinks provide a way to set up your equipment so it's harder to hack from anything longer than touch distance. And getting a street sam to stand still long enough for you to hack his equipment is pretty damned hard.
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I dunno. Many of the characters I run across are the stone cold types that, if they think you're about to screw with them, won't even stop to ask why. They'll put a bullet in your brain. Then sell your body to an organlegger.
When you have a group of paranoid freak bastards that murder people for a living, the last thing you ever want to give them is a surprise. You might not get the chance to explain.
That said, most of the characters I've run across minimize their wireless usage anyhow.
My "old man" merc character goes one further, he still uses an old fashioned optic fiber body harness under his coat to hard-wire all his equipment that needs networking, and has a SEPERATE personal network for just the gear that actually needs a Matrix connection.
-k
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There's a reason he lived to be an old man in a business with a high death rate.
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"There are old runners, and there are bold runners. There are no old, bold runners."
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First off, if the Street Sam doesn't know NOT to link his 'ware up his commlink, it's going to be set-up that way. It makes it easier for the Mega's and KE to shut down the cybered trolls. So, it's sold and installed that way. Only makes sense.
This is your own invention nothing more nothing less, yes unwired does point out that there are ways to hack cyberware, but they are not put in as a law enforcement cutoff. They are exploiting holes in the code. I'm still skeptical you actually play with anyone / have played this scenario out as I really cannot see this sort of attitude ending in anything other then bloodshed at an actual table. It has been my observation that no matter how much people might desire otherwise 90%+ of people will not roleplay a scared character. They will roleplay a character that responds to threats with violence.
If the hacker tells me he has put a backdoor into my gear I kill him and then get my gear replaced or looked over by someone who I have a lot better trust relationship with. Simple and elegant. Any potential risk of scripted reprisals or potential problems is much preferable to allowing such an untrustworthy and unprofessional runner to walk the same sprawl with me.
I firmly believe most Shadowrun teams at least to start out operate on a level of mutually assured destruction. The hacker can conceivably hack the street sam, the mage can fireball the hacker, the street sam can shoot the mage before he gets a spell off. It's a highly fluid game of eggshells with hammers. THe first person that actually comments on the situation or threatens the others invites reprisal.
Some of the best life advice I was ever given was "Don't ever pull a knife unless you are going to stab someone right then" same principle. Don't threaten, just do it or don't bring it up. Better to keep that ace up your sleeve. If your really that concerned about their infosec hack their gear and make the changes yourself discretely.
Also another thing at my table, if your character does something fantastically stupid and gets geeked by another player (which has happened a grand total of twice in the last decade) and your response is to make a "reprisal" character, you'll be asked not to return.
Cool story bro time:
Just the other day my character outed himself as a ghoul to the other PC's after the GM let it slip out of character (i figured once the players knew I aught to just bring it up in character). We had a brief discussion about it my character explaining that he was a second generation ghoul and was therefore sterile from a virus standpoint, and while he did have certain dietary needs people die every day without his intervention so he didn't exactly look at teammates as meals on legs. One of the other characters whose had some bad luck with infected pointed his panther cannon at me during this discussion while everyone else played it relatively chill. My character slipped a note to the GM later about installing a backdoor on the characters cybereyes to shut them off with a command in case it came down to a conflict between them. Now i'm fully aware that if that character finds out there's going to be a fight, likely to the death, and once they've ran together a bit I'm going to remove the back door. But it is what it is. As you said, SR isn't a nice world, there's no reason for people to take electronic assault as anything other then assault, and your position as a hacker just isn't that strong enough to bank on alone.