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[6E] Edge limits and bonus edge for immediate use

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Multifish2

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« on: <05-13-21/1251:06> »
There are quite a lot of rules that grant a bonus edge for immediate use with a specific action or lose it (which I'll refer to as temporary edge); this leads to some questions when combined with the different edge limits.

1. What happens if this occurs when the player already has their maximum of 7 edge?
Do they gain a temporary 8th edge, so could spend 1 edge on that action and still end with 7 or do they just lose the bonus, so if they spend 1 edge on the action end with 6.

2. Does this temporary edge count towards the limit of 2 bonus points of Edge in a combat round?

3. Does spending this temporary edge count as their 1 expenditure of edge for this action?

Many thanks

Xenon

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« Reply #1 on: <05-13-21/1405:54> »
They are regular edge points that follow regular edge rules.
The only exception is that this edge point is lost once the action is completed.
« Last Edit: <05-13-21/1431:02> by Xenon »

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #2 on: <05-13-21/1410:46> »
So yes, technically speaking there's no difference between bankable Edge and use-or-lose Edge.

Speaking personally though, I like to think of use-or-lose Edge as being exempted from all other Edge limitations.  On the basis of "use it or lose it" being the specific that trumps general.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

MercilessMing

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« Reply #3 on: <05-13-21/1428:05> »
As I read it:
1: They can't gain the Edge.  Gaining a temporary edge is still gaining edge even if you don't bank it.
2: Yes it still counts, I don't think the book makes a distinction between bankable and temporary edge.
3: Yes, if you spend that edge then that's your edge expenditure.  You can combine it with other edge for a bigger effect though of course.

If you think those edge rules are too prohibitive though, you could exempt temporary edge or change the rule to how many edge you can bank per turn.
« Last Edit: <05-13-21/1430:09> by MercilessMing »

Xenon

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« Reply #4 on: <05-13-21/1431:17> »

1. What happens if this occurs when the player already has their maximum of 7 edge?
You can't spend 8 Edge on an action where you gained a bonus edge, if that is what you are asking. The limit of number of Edge points you can have is 7 (even if your Edge Attribute is lower).


2. Does this temporary edge count towards the limit of 2 bonus points of Edge in a combat round?
It count as if you are gaining a point of Edge which mean you can only gain one more point of edge during this combat turn.

Having said that, I would personally house rule this as if you gained one point of edge if you actually used it, but if you choose to not use it then the point was taken away and I would rule that it does not count as if you already gained a point of edge during this combat turn.


3. Does spending this temporary edge count as their 1 expenditure of edge for this action?
You are not allowed to take two different edge boosts linked to one action just because you gain a bonus edge point that have to be spend on this action, if that is what you are asking. You are only allowed to take one Edge boost per action (but you can take the same Edge boost multiple times, for example you can re roll several dice by spending several edge at once).

Multifish2

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« Reply #5 on: <05-13-21/1514:03> »
Thanks for the responses so far.

1. What happens if this occurs when the player already has their maximum of 7 edge?
You can't spend 8 Edge on an action where you gained a bonus edge, if that is what you are asking. The limit of number of Edge points you can have is 7 (even if your Edge Attribute is lower).

I was more interested in the case I specified, if I spend 1 edge on an action with the boost do I end up with 7 or 6. The reason I think there is some ambiguity on this point is that on p.45 it states "In the session, Edge can be carried over and accumulated up to a limit of 7". By definition this temporary Edge can never be carried over/accumulated so is it even covered by this rule?

2. Does this temporary edge count towards the limit of 2 bonus points of Edge in a combat round?
It count as if you are gaining a point of Edge which mean you can only gain one more point of edge during this combat turn.

Having said that, I would personally house rule this as if you gained one point of edge if you actually used it, but if you choose to not use it then the point was taken away and I would rule that it does not count as if you already gained a point of edge during this combat turn.
I was leaning towards something similar to your house rule as the wording here says  "No player may gain more than two points of Edge in a combat round". The player is certainly not gaining any advantage from the Edge bonus if not used, but that is not relevant when RAW. However, it would lead to odd cases where if you have multiple ways of gaining this temporary Edge over the course of a single round, then the first 2 triggers would eliminate all Edge for the whole round whether you used it or not which doesn't seem right.

3. Does spending this temporary edge count as their 1 expenditure of edge for this action?
You are not allowed to take two different edge boosts linked to one action just because you gain a bonus edge point that have to be spend on this action, if that is what you are asking. You are only allowed to take one Edge boost per action (but you can take the same Edge boost multiple times, for example you can re roll several dice by spending several edge at once).
Yep, agreed. This one seems the most clear based on the rules, but thought it worth checking while asking the other two :-)
« Last Edit: <05-13-21/1533:05> by Multifish2 »

MercilessMing

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« Reply #6 on: <05-13-21/1604:58> »
On the... bright side? ... if you have 7 Edge and trigger, say, Toughness, although you can't gain benefit from that quality, it also doesn't count toward your 2 per turn.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #7 on: <05-13-21/1658:25> »
This would be why I consider 7 Edge a trap.
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Xenon

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« Reply #8 on: <05-13-21/1730:28> »
I was more interested in the case I specified, if I spend 1 edge on an action with the boost do I end up with 7 or 6. The reason I think there is some ambiguity on this point is that on p.45 it states "In the session, Edge can be carried over and accumulated up to a limit of 7". By definition this temporary Edge can never be carried over/accumulated so is it even covered by this rule?
As I read it,

If you have 7 edge then you will not gain a temporary bonus edge (same as you would not gain an edge point if you AR is 4 higher than targets DR if you already have 7 edge). If you did you would end up with 8 edge that you could spend on this action. 8 is over the limit of 7 limit.

If you choose to spend 1 edge point (of your already existing 7 edge points) on this action even though you will not gain a bonus edge because you were at the limit of 7 already then you will end up with 6 edge when the action is completed.

Sir Ludwig

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« Reply #9 on: <05-13-21/2253:32> »
Multfish2,

Welcome to the forums.

At the time, no one in our group had 7 edge.  So,  I hadn't thought about the "Edge 7 trap" until Michael C pointed it out in another post.    I went down the rabbit hole and recently recommended to a new player not to making a 7 edge "Lucky" character.    He still went, which I'm cool with it's a game, but we have been running it just like Xenon's 17:30:28 post.  Just an FYI: That dude will usually burn an edge fairly early in the game just to open up some breathing room. 

Regards,
SL
Si vis pacem, para bellum

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #10 on: <05-14-21/0016:21> »
Multfish2,

Welcome to the forums.

At the time, no one in our group had 7 edge.  So,  I hadn't thought about the "Edge 7 trap" until Michael C pointed it out in another post.    I went down the rabbit hole and recently recommended to a new player not to making a 7 edge "Lucky" character.    He still went, which I'm cool with it's a game, but we have been running it just like Xenon's 17:30:28 post.  Just an FYI: That dude will usually burn an edge fairly early in the game just to open up some breathing room. 

Regards,
SL

Yeah, Michael Chandra has a point about starting at the ceiling, but it's not hard to find viable ways to spend Edge immediately that are not wastes.  At the very least, you can always drop from 7 edge down to 5 to give a teammate who's NOT at 7 an edge point.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Xenon

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« Reply #11 on: <05-14-21/0153:35> »
no one in our group had 7 edge. 
Note that you can have less than 7 edge attribute and still save up until you have 7 edge during the encounter. If you gain more edge beyond that point then they will be wasted. And if you after the encounter still have 'overflow edge points' then they will also be wasted.

So,  I hadn't thought about the "Edge 7 trap"
From my post in the house rule thread;
Humans and Edge
...you can save Edge across multiple combat rounds to build up a maximum of 7 Edge points (or 8 for Humans) for that big play!

Multifish2

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« Reply #12 on: <05-14-21/0154:23> »
Thanks everyone. So based on the discussions Iíll be running it with the house rule of only counting temporary edge towards the 2 edge round limit IF it is used, but otherwise all other edge rules apply.

Also been really good highlighting how characters with 7 edge (or even 6) need to be careful to get the most out of that by burning some early if they are going into a situation they know they will be able to generate more edge.

Xenon

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« Reply #13 on: <05-14-21/0349:56> »
Also been really good highlighting how characters with 7 edge (or even 6) need to be careful to get the most out of that by burning some early if they are going into a situation they know they will be able to generate more edge.
Edge points are filled up and spend so frequent that it doesn't really matter if a point is lost here and there (but yes, if you are at 6+ edge points and don't have anything else to spend it on you might as well spend 2 edge points to give 1 edge point to one of your allies).

It's the same with actions really. You get new minor actions so often that it is not the end of the world if you don't use up all your minor actions in every single combat turn.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #14 on: <05-14-21/0813:24> »
One of my houserule posts on Edge: https://shadowland.blog/2020/05/06/houserules-edge-cinematic-play/

Short summary, the blogpost has the detailed explanation as to what and why:

Players:
- 2 Edge max gained per ACTION, including temporary Edge.
 -2 Edge KEPT max per combat round
- Edge Pools max at 9.
- Edge transfers ignore the limit, BUT you canít transfer non-kept Edge.
- If you and an ally are attacked together, and you transfer gained Edge immediately to the ally, it counts as kept Edge (and is restricted by the 2 kept max limit).

Grunts:
- (Unit-size/5, rounded up) Edge Boosts allowed per turn, instead of 1 Edge Boost per turn for the entire unit.
- Downed grunts still count for the unit size (see rule above), but routed grunts do not. Routed grunts also cannot gain or spend Edge.
- 2 Edge KEPT max per combat round, for the entire unit combined.
- If Edge cannot be kept or spent, due to the Edge Boost and Edge Kept limits, convert the remaining point(s) into bonus dice
- When multiple grunts are attacked at the same time, they gain Edge together (so just once), but also spend Edge together (e.g. they gain 1 Edge but spend 2 to reroll two of their failures? Then each grunt gets the benefit of the reroll).
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