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6E car transport

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Reaver

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« Reply #30 on: <09-02-20/2312:00> »
MC,

Invisible mages running across a busy street.  Guess that is why we have those pictures on lawn mowers that tell you not to stick your fingers into the blades.

Who would be at fault if they are hit?  GG, driver/owner of vech/invisible mage?  Sounds like I got a game idea where the runners are hired to get proof the mages where invisible for (insurance company, GG, driver). To help win the case.

Regards,
SL

It hasn't been touched on much in the recent editions (there is a blurb in Street Grimoire), but when magic is involved, it is always considered a premeditated act...

Now, how would that apply to a mage crossing a street while invisible? Suicide sounds like the likely investigative result.
("Why would a mage walk out into traffic while Invisible if NOT to commit Suicide? There is no chance anyone or any sensor could see him..")

However,, keep in mind, mages that can actually cast spells are in the very much minority. (5% of the population is awakened, which includes all types of awakened. So spell casters are going to be rare, spell casters that also know invisibility, less so.. )

While I could see Insurance companies trying this stunt, the number of times it would come up would be minuscule compared to all the other new scams for insurance fraud that the wireless matrix opens up.... and the legal and financial ramifications of said "wireless fun"....
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #31 on: <08-09-21/1310:00> »
GridGuide can still see the car through all the subscribed vehicles their sensors, but it sure won't like you.
GridGuide sees car that doesn't have a GridGuide Subscription.

GridGuide makes sure it doesn't get any lane change options in order to hit every red light on its way to its destination.

GridGuide almost has a garbage truck merge into the lane that the Ghost Car is in.

GridGuide boxes the Ghost Car with a bunch of minimum subscription cars and makes the person in this box watch as higher tiered members roll right on by in what used to be the carpool lane.

GridGuide makes sure there's a cop close to the Ghost Car if it's speeding.  Ticket time.
Necroposting, but there are a number of wireless-off vehicles that should not be so poorly accommodated. High-security cargo transport, for instance, as well as VIP transport. In your opinion, how does Gridguide account for this?
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

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Reaver

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« Reply #32 on: <08-09-21/2020:31> »
GridGuide can still see the car through all the subscribed vehicles their sensors, but it sure won't like you.
GridGuide sees car that doesn't have a GridGuide Subscription.

GridGuide makes sure it doesn't get any lane change options in order to hit every red light on its way to its destination.

GridGuide almost has a garbage truck merge into the lane that the Ghost Car is in.

GridGuide boxes the Ghost Car with a bunch of minimum subscription cars and makes the person in this box watch as higher tiered members roll right on by in what used to be the carpool lane.

GridGuide makes sure there's a cop close to the Ghost Car if it's speeding.  Ticket time.
Necroposting, but there are a number of wireless-off vehicles that should not be so poorly accommodated. High-security cargo transport, for instance, as well as VIP transport. In your opinion, how does Gridguide account for this?

Graft.
Money talks.
Back room handshakes.

There are other ways to make things work for you then just a subsrciption. (Hello the entire shadow economy).
Besides, everything you described is exactly who would be subscribed to GG.

That VIP, or HTT needs clear roads, clear intersections and On/Off ramps: everything a GG subscription can provide.

Need a 2 block buuble around the Prez's motorcade? Gridgride does that. (Or well enough with what, 90% of traffic routed through it)
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #33 on: <08-10-21/2155:34> »
Yes, but that overlooks that despite needing the benefits of Gridguide, the VIP or HTT also needs to have wireless turned off for maximum security. You can install manual override and gridguide override, but that doesn't remove the fundamental problem that as long as one has wireless turned on there's a non-zero chance the vehicle can bricked before you can do anything. Yes, you can put a top notch decker in the vehicle. That'll protect against any script kiddies, and it'll probably protect against any shadowrunners..........but at a certain point, "probably" isn't enough. And besides all that, we all know that the mantra of the super-rich is "rules for thee, but not for me". If I've got enough money, then I don't care that Gridguide only works when wireless is turned on; I want it to work when wireless is turned off, and someone is going to make it that way!

What I'm getting at is that I believe that at the highest level of Gridguide subscription, a secret level most people don't even know about, Gridguide will give you VIP treatment while you have wireless turned off; what I'm asking is how this might be achieved.

My preliminary thoughts on the matter are that perhaps such drives cannot be done spontaneously (by which I mean, there must be some warning to Gridguide beforehand, more than 5 minutes but no more 24 hours) and also that at least one accompanying vehicle must be connected to Gridguide....that there will be at least one accompanying vehicle is a given. After all, we are talking about a level of security where there is going to be a convoy rather than a single vehicle.
« Last Edit: <08-10-21/2200:59> by Ghost Rigger »
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #34 on: <08-10-21/2215:48> »
I think you're trying to swim upstream here, Ghost Rigger.

Frankly, if you absolutely must make your tippy top priority motorcade as unhackable as possible, just incorporate the vehicles inside a WAN run by the most epic host you have.  Get the best of both worlds:  you have gridguide to divert traffic out of your way, and you can't even be targeted for a hack until the enemy hacks their way past that epic host's event horizon.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

MercilessMing

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« Reply #35 on: <08-11-21/1033:13> »
Does that kind of set up still work in 6th?  PANs/WANs protected by a proper Host? 
Also, WANs should really be a proper thing in the game instead of just homebrew that makes sense.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #36 on: <08-11-21/1225:19> »
To the best of my knowledge:

5e was worded in such a way that any devices slaved to a host could not be perceived by any personas outside that host. But, the writer's intent was apparently the opposite of that.

6e is worded similarly, with a new writer for the matrix rules... so 5e's writer's intent, whatever relevance it had in 5e, is much less so in 6e.

Regardless: The actual term WAN isn't used in 6e, but it's irrelevant.  It's archaic as of this edition. You absolutely can have hosts protect devices in 6e.  Afterall, a car is no different from a maglock, when it comes to how the matrix works.  And whether you need to be IN the host before hacking the maglock or the motorcade is irrelevant to whether or not the host and spiders' stats are invoked when trying to hack those devices.

As an aside: I don't want to overpromise but we are trying to get an official FAQ approved.  It will be very nice to get official answers on if, and when, you can spot devices protected by a host from outside a host, and many other things too.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Smogg

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« Reply #37 on: <08-11-21/1345:21> »
In 5e it was very easy to protect and slave everything and I think the general consensus was to do just that, so that only hackers completely maxed (16 dice+) out had a shot at doing anything useful. In combat it was even worse as by the time the hacker had bricked that rifle, the street sam had already killed the guard and 3 of his friends.

Since 5e has been quite dominated by large online communities, I think a side effect is the impression that shadowrunners are everywhere and every man, woman, child and their pets needed to protect against hackers.

Personally my philosophy is that in the sixth world, people trust the matrix. Generally people won't get hacked even if their PAN is a meta link because:
- Matrix is build to protect against simple hacking (like that of todays script kiddies)
- Hacking is very illigal
- Cyberdecks and Cyberjacks are illigal and very expensive.
- Shadowrunners are relatively rare, expensive and illigal to hire.

My experience of 6e is that general matrix protection is limited especially with regard to Comlink-PANs. If you have a high end comlink, maybe you can protect a few favorite items, and not even that well. Items slaved to hosts can still be hacked wireless from the outside and generally the best way to protect against a hacker is to bring one.

I think this is extremly important because it gives the team hacker so many more options during a run and even during combat. There is no need to shut down the hacker. Let him bring some creativity to the table. And if you really want to, have a spider show up to occupy him.

I hope the Matrix book will bring some more details on hacking, but hopefully not in a way that limit the matrix role on the team as we saw in 5e. I mean just look at mages for comparason. There is no real general protection against magic except magic.

In case of a convoy that had to run on GridGuide and be wirless on and HAD to be protected, I would simply put in a spider of appropriate level to deal with any hostile hackers and likely a mage as well at that level. Your hacker wont be able to do much effective hacking while in matrix combat.



Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #38 on: <08-11-21/1548:33> »
I think you're trying to swim upstream here, Ghost Rigger.
Going to have to disagree. There is no reason Gridguide couldn't give a wireless-off vehicle the VIP treatment provided it could properly identify it.....which is a trivial matter, now that I've thought about it for a bit. A security tag would be sufficient for this purpose, and may have the added benefit of making the vehicle appear to have it's wireless turned on. I'd wager that a 5 nuyen security tag plus the secret VIP gridguide subscription is cheaper than lugging a good spider around, and it's more secure.
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

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Hobbes

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« Reply #39 on: <08-11-21/1602:41> »
I think you're trying to swim upstream here, Ghost Rigger.
Going to have to disagree. There is no reason Gridguide couldn't give a wireless-off vehicle the VIP treatment provided it could properly identify it.....which is a trivial matter, now that I've thought about it for a bit. A security tag would be sufficient for this purpose, and may have the added benefit of making the vehicle appear to have it's wireless turned on. I'd wager that a 5 nuyen security tag plus the secret VIP gridguide subscription is cheaper than lugging a good spider around, and it's more secure.

6th world VIPs don't travel in a throwback vehicle.  If it's a real VIP with significant security the vehicle is being driven by a Rigger, so will need to have some kind of wireless connection to do the Rigger thing.  The hacker will have to deal with a Jumped in Rigger before hijacking the vehicle wirelessly, and that isn't going to be subtle.  Bricking the RCC or dumping the Rigger is going to give the game up.  A meat space driver can flip the vehicle to wireless off once it's clear the Matrix defenses have been compromised. 

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #40 on: <08-11-21/1612:21> »
Or the rigger can be inside the vehicle with a wired connection. I honestly don't know why you'd want the rigging to be done remotely in this scenario.
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #41 on: <08-11-21/1629:12> »
Or the rigger can be inside the vehicle with a wired connection. I honestly don't know why you'd want the rigging to be done remotely in this scenario.

If you have a vehicle protected by a host, you're not gaining anything by putting the rigger's body physically inside the vehicle.  In fact, you're losing a seat that could have otherwise been occupied by another cybered up bodyguard.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #42 on: <08-11-21/1704:51> »
If you have a vehicle protected by a host, you're not gaining anything by putting the rigger's body physically inside the vehicle.
Why is it protected by a host? I have already explained that it's trivial to set up a VIP vehicle to benefit from Gridguide while having it's wireless turned off. At this point you're just trying to justify an initial assumption.

Quote
In fact, you're losing a seat that could have otherwise been occupied by another cybered up bodyguard.
Nah, you're breaking even because you don't need a spider anymore.
« Last Edit: <08-11-21/1712:01> by Ghost Rigger »
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

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Xenon

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« Reply #43 on: <08-11-21/1830:25> »
If you want to stay fully connected to GridGuide (access to real-time updated google maps, up-to-date traffic situation, fully self driving vehicle, status of next two-three traffic lights, recharging your vehicle via GridLink, etc) then you need to be wireless enabled. Full stop on this one.

If you wish to remain connected but without all the drawbacks (risk of getting remotely shut down, cannot exceed posted speed limits, etc) while also get access to a rotating identifier so you cannot be tracked for an extended period as well as still accessing GridLink for recharging your vehicle you would typically install a GridLink Override Electromagnetic Modification.

Hackers typically cannot remote control a vehicle that is already being remote controlled (unless the hacker have a control rig implant, the vehicle have a rigger interface and the hacker actually jump into the vehicle) and if a rigger is already jumped in then there is no way for a hacker to control the vehicle (at least as long as the rigger is not removed from the equation somehow). Remote control override is a risk while driving manually while the car is connected but ti mitigate this risk you would typically install the Manual Control Override Power Train Modification. While active the vehicle can only be manually controlled from within the vehicle (can also not be driven via AR or VR, not even from within the vehicle).

Even in areas of the city where GridGuide and GridLink are available I guess you can also still run your vehicle wireless disabled and drive the vehicle yourself without being connected at all. But in some areas of the city this might actually not be legal...! And I would imagine that driving through an intersection without traffic lights might become quite a challenge if your vehicle is not handshaking with all autonomous vehicles that are also driving through the intersection (at 80 mph from all four directions at the same time).
« Last Edit: <08-11-21/1837:40> by Xenon »

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #44 on: <08-11-21/1841:04> »
If you want to stay fully connected to GridGuide (access to real-time updated google maps, up-to-date traffic situation, fully self driving vehicle, status of next two-three traffic lights, recharging your vehicle via GridLink, etc) then you need to be wireless enabled. Full stop on this one.

Hard agree.

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If you wish to remain connected but without all the drawbacks (risk of getting remotely shut down, cannot exceed posted speed limits, etc) while also get access to a rotating identifier so you cannot be tracked for an extended period as well as still accessing GridLink for recharging your vehicle you would typically install a GridLink Override Electromagnetic Modification.

Depending on whether host event horizon is or is not in play, putting the rigger/vehicle matrix icon inside host is an alternative that's damn near a case of "get your cake AND eat it too".  Distance based Noise doesn't even factor in- ideal for a remotely driving Rigger!

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If you wish stay connected while still also making sure hackers will not remote control your vehicle you would typically install the Manual Control Override Power Train Modification. While active the vehicle can only be manually controlled from within the vehicle (no driving via AR or VR). But note that hackers typically cannot remote control a vehicle that is already being remote controlled (unless the hacker have a control rig implant, the vehicle have a rigger interface and the hacker actually jump into the vehicle) and if a rigger is already jumped in then there is no way for a hacker to control the vehicle (at least as long as the rigger is not removed from the equation somehow).

I mean you COULD... but there are better options.  Namely: hire a good rigger to drive and hire a good spider to perform overwatch.  Or... if you've already got a stout host anyway.....

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Even in areas of the city where GridGuide and GridLink are available I guess you can also still run your vehicle wireless disabled and drive the vehicle yourself without being connected at all. But in some areas of the city this might actually not be legal...! And I would imagine that driving through an intersection without traffic lights might become quite a challenge if your vehicle is not handshaking with all autonomous vehicles that are also driving through the intersection (at 80 mph from all four directions at the same time).

I happen to agree.  Running wireless-off (or without GridGuide) on GridLink equipped motorways is likely illegal in most jurisdictions.  For the exact reason you said: when everyone ELSE is on GG and whipping through intersections at carefully timed and spaced intervals under computer control, someone attempting to thread that cross traffic manually is a fragging hazard to themselves and everyone else around them.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.