Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Lethrendis on <08-08-20/0715:45>

Title: 6E car transport
Post by: Lethrendis on <08-08-20/0715:45>
Hi, while playing, we didn't agree on the possibility of disconnecting the car from the Matrix. A police car with a driver has become the target of a hacker attack, can the driver disconnect the car so he can drive himself? I assume it's illegal, but is it possible?
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-08-20/0719:35>
A car is a device, so you could turn off the wireless. Whether it's legal depends on where you are.

To quote Rigger 5.0:
Quote from: p155
Nearly every modern vehicle made in the 2070s has
the ability to be piloted remotely or purely through
its electronic controls as well as its manual/mechanical
controls.

If you want the car to still be online but not controllable remotely, you'd need a specific override that will be in the detailed-vehicle-rigger book. But just turning off the wireless, is perfectly possible without that.
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: Lethrendis on <08-08-20/0757:50>
TY, exactly as I thought.
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <08-08-20/1148:36>
If it was a players car I probably wouldn't push it, especially if its a riggers car. Similarly I would assume a police car might have a higher hacker risk so they might have a easy off switch. But lets say its a stolen car, I'd let them do it but it would require electronics skill or hacking to do so. My assumption is most cars just wouldn't have that as a switch or option, its like your air bag its on unless you take serious action to deactivate it.  And if you were in a town that required something like grid guide I'd increase your handling checks as you are forced to dodge cars that don't see you outside of emergency maneuvering.
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: Xenon on <08-08-20/1346:10>
Not at books atm but iirc turning off wireless in this edition already require an electronics test.
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-08-20/1349:36>
...Similarly I would assume a police car might have a higher hacker risk so they might have a easy off switch...

In my mind, it doesn't make sense from a traffic safety perspective to go wireless-off.  Police and emergency vehicles especially so... how is Grid Guide going to divert traffic out of your way if it can't see you?

Personally, I'd say a police car's defense against criminal hacking is being protected by the precinct host and attending spider(s).  Gotta crack a very stout police host in order to frag with the police car pursuing you...
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-08-20/1408:26>
GridGuide can still see the car through all the subscribed vehicles their sensors, but it sure won't like you.
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: 0B on <08-08-20/1425:35>
...Similarly I would assume a police car might have a higher hacker risk so they might have a easy off switch...

In my mind, it doesn't make sense from a traffic safety perspective to go wireless-off.  Police and emergency vehicles especially so... how is Grid Guide going to divert traffic out of your way if it can't see you?

Personally, I'd say a police car's defense against criminal hacking is being protected by the precinct host and attending spider(s).  Gotta crack a very stout police host in order to frag with the police car pursuing you...

I don't think it'd be too much of a stretch to say that emergency vehicles have a manual mode, but that might be more of a "in case crash 3.0 happens" or "because of that blackout last month that took out all electronic systems, we're going to have steering wheels in our cars as a backup."
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: CanRay on <08-08-20/1428:52>
GridGuide can still see the car through all the subscribed vehicles their sensors, but it sure won't like you.
GridGuide sees car that doesn't have a GridGuide Subscription.

GridGuide makes sure it doesn't get any lane change options in order to hit every red light on its way to its destination.

GridGuide almost has a garbage truck merge into the lane that the Ghost Car is in.

GridGuide boxes the Ghost Car with a bunch of minimum subscription cars and makes the person in this box watch as higher tiered members roll right on by in what used to be the carpool lane.

GridGuide makes sure there's a cop close to the Ghost Car if it's speeding.  Ticket time.
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-08-20/1555:43>
In my campaign there were mages running over the highway with Movement while invisible. Since every now and then a camera would pierce the Illusion, GridGuide's system would freak out and try to avoid a collision, which led to dangerous sudden maneuvers and complaints. So the speedsters got a simple choice: use a GPS tracker, or become free game. As in, a big truck swerving into the lane of the invisible speedster...
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <08-08-20/1618:06>
Not at books atm but iirc turning off wireless in this edition already require an electronics test.

It does but its basically a non existent test that people cheese that 3 point quality with. This is just my assumption but I'd assume some devices due to safety concerns would make it harder to turn off. Its not just navigating to your iphones system and switching wi-fi off.
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <08-08-20/1620:09>
...Similarly I would assume a police car might have a higher hacker risk so they might have a easy off switch...

In my mind, it doesn't make sense from a traffic safety perspective to go wireless-off.  Police and emergency vehicles especially so... how is Grid Guide going to divert traffic out of your way if it can't see you?

Personally, I'd say a police car's defense against criminal hacking is being protected by the precinct host and attending spider(s).  Gotta crack a very stout police host in order to frag with the police car pursuing you...

I'd assume they have better matrix security, but I probably would have a last ditch easy shut off switch as well.  I might not just so I don't spoil the hackers fun.
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <08-08-20/1621:57>
GridGuide can still see the car through all the subscribed vehicles their sensors, but it sure won't like you.
GridGuide sees car that doesn't have a GridGuide Subscription.

GridGuide makes sure it doesn't get any lane change options in order to hit every red light on its way to its destination.

GridGuide almost has a garbage truck merge into the lane that the Ghost Car is in.

GridGuide boxes the Ghost Car with a bunch of minimum subscription cars and makes the person in this box watch as higher tiered members roll right on by in what used to be the carpool lane.

GridGuide makes sure there's a cop close to the Ghost Car if it's speeding.  Ticket time.

I like it.  That's meaner than what I'd do.  Like I said I'd just bump the handling tests a bit.  Gridguide might technically see you through its other subscribed cars but it has no idea what you are doing. So cars wont just get out of your way in as timely as a fashion.
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: markelphoenix on <08-08-20/1709:07>
GridGuide can still see the car through all the subscribed vehicles their sensors, but it sure won't like you.
GridGuide sees car that doesn't have a GridGuide Subscription.

GridGuide makes sure it doesn't get any lane change options in order to hit every red light on its way to its destination.

GridGuide almost has a garbage truck merge into the lane that the Ghost Car is in.

GridGuide boxes the Ghost Car with a bunch of minimum subscription cars and makes the person in this box watch as higher tiered members roll right on by in what used to be the carpool lane.

GridGuide makes sure there's a cop close to the Ghost Car if it's speeding.  Ticket time.

I like it.  That's meaner than what I'd do.  Like I said I'd just bump the handling tests a bit.  Gridguide might technically see you through its other subscribed cars but it has no idea what you are doing. So cars wont just get out of your way in as timely as a fashion.

Given how far along we've come with our limited technology in regards to self driving vehicles, I would be extremely surprised if the 2080s couldn't handle pico-second adjustments spread across the meshed vehicles on the Grid in response to a none grid vehicle entering the traffic flow.
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <08-08-20/1946:45>
GridGuide can still see the car through all the subscribed vehicles their sensors, but it sure won't like you.
GridGuide sees car that doesn't have a GridGuide Subscription.

GridGuide makes sure it doesn't get any lane change options in order to hit every red light on its way to its destination.

GridGuide almost has a garbage truck merge into the lane that the Ghost Car is in.

GridGuide boxes the Ghost Car with a bunch of minimum subscription cars and makes the person in this box watch as higher tiered members roll right on by in what used to be the carpool lane.

GridGuide makes sure there's a cop close to the Ghost Car if it's speeding.  Ticket time.

I like it.  That's meaner than what I'd do.  Like I said I'd just bump the handling tests a bit.  Gridguide might technically see you through its other subscribed cars but it has no idea what you are doing. So cars wont just get out of your way in as timely as a fashion.

Given how far along we've come with our limited technology in regards to self driving vehicles, I would be extremely surprised if the 2080s couldn't handle pico-second adjustments spread across the meshed vehicles on the Grid in response to a none grid vehicle entering the traffic flow.

Ordinary driving maybe.  Car chase driving I'm not so sure. Also i figure there is a reason its mandatory in certain areas. Do they have the tech to make it work, maybe do they spend the money to use that tech?

Edit to add this isn't just about not being on grid guide, but shutting down the wi-fi entirely. Even if you are not on grid guide its how your car interacts with the world. On a game mechanics side of things, there should be a penalty to being able to just full on avoid a hack.
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: hulka on <09-01-20/0726:59>
The question therefore remains whether the Grid Guide is connected to wireless in the car or not.
If the GG is independent and guides the car without the need to connect to wifi, then I can turn off wifi at any time without penalty.
However, if the GG is connected via wifi, then turning it off threatens traffic and cannot be turned off while driving.
If anyone turns off the wifi while driving, then it leads to the automatic stop of the vehicle, the car is taken over by the Pilot and he guides him to a safe stop.
Or the car continues in its original direction until it hits something.
IMHO Police cars are controlled by law and as such must be identifiable and cannot turn off wifi. Their protection is provided by the Host.
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: Michael Chandra on <09-01-20/0821:54>
Given how GridGuide can't use road-wires everywhere and needs to connect with all the cars, I'd say that GridGuide won't function without wireless. But your car still has an autopilot without GridGuide.
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: hulka on <09-01-20/0902:47>
That's exactly my opinion.
However, if Autopilot loses connection and does not know the exact conditions of traffic, then its primary directive is to stop the car safely.
And for another, if so, then turning off wifi may not be possible while driving.
The car's safety protocol should not allow this.
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: Hobbes on <09-01-20/0950:19>
GG isn't Omnipresent, Drone and Vehicle Autopilot work without GG just fine.  They certainly work better with something like Grid Guide coordinating all the other traffic though. 

Pilot Programs also function just fine without Wireless.  Giving a flying drone orders without Wireless presents some challenges ; )   But you can certainly plug into your car and give it commands, and the Autopilot will do its best.  Verbal commands or manual input are also options.

Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <09-01-20/0955:46>
...Giving a flying drone orders without Wireless presents some challenges ; ) ...

while this is true, if 5e fluff carries over into 6e it's not impossible.  Namely: drones (and vehicles) understand voice commands just fine.  You can literally tell your flying drone what you want it to do, even while you have its wireless capability shut off.  Of course, it'd have to be within voice range for that to work...
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: penllawen on <09-01-20/1011:24>
I think the best way to think about GridGuide in terms of mechanics is that itís a gigantic RCC in the sky, with all the vehicles within its purview connected to it. It gives them some extra dice via something like a super-autosoft, which lets the autopilots on each vehicle travel faster / closer / safer than it could do otherwise. GridGuide can issue commands to vehicles which are then carried out by the autopilot on the vehicle to the best of its ability.
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: Michael Chandra on <09-01-20/1149:13>
That's exactly my opinion.
However, if Autopilot loses connection and does not know the exact conditions of traffic, then its primary directive is to stop the car safely.
And for another, if so, then turning off wifi may not be possible while driving.
The car's safety protocol should not allow this.
Nah, a car has maps and cameras, so it can still navigate.
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: Xenon on <09-01-20/1225:36>
If the GG is independent and guides the car without the need to connect to wifi, then I can turn off wifi at any time without penalty.
A wireless disabled vehicle will not automatically recharge and it's mapsofts will not be automatically updated (you will not know the latest traffic jam situation, know about the accidents that might have impact on traffic, know if the bridge up ahead is about to open or not etc).


If anyone turns off the wifi while driving, then it leads to the automatic stop of the vehicle, the car is taken over by the Pilot and he guides him to a safe stop.
If you are connected to GridLink then the autopilot of the vehicle cannot exceed speed limits and the vehicle can be remotely shut down.

If you are connected to GridLink but run a GridLink Override (or if you turn wireless off) then the autopilot of the vehicle can exceed speed limits and the vehicle cannot be remotely shut down.


Or the car continues in its original direction until it hits something.
No...

That pretty much only happen if nobody is controlling the vehicle and the vehicle's autopilot have been disabled. Or perhaps if the vehicle have been bricked.

A vehicle with an Autopilot that have access to the correct autosofts (in a vehicle that runs GridLink Override) can take all sorts of actions (evasive maneuvers, perform stunts, participate in car chases, firing on-board weapons etc) and unless the vehicle have an active metahuman pilot it will also automatically take over control to make sure you don't crash into stuff.

You can also manually take control over the vehicle. Driving it like people used to drive vehicles back in 2020. You never need a wireless connection for physically driving something yourself. At least in 5th edition, manual control override autopilot.

And you can also control it via AR or VR. Even if it is wireless disabled (via direct connection). At least in 5th edition, this override both autopilot and manual control.

And if the vehicle have a rigger adaption and you have an implanted control rig or is a technomancer with a machine mind echo you can also control while being jumped in. Even if it is wireless disabled (via direct connection). And at least in 5th edition this would override autopilot, manual control as well as regular remote control.


However, if Autopilot loses connection and does not know the exact conditions of traffic, then its primary directive is to stop the car safely.
Where did you read this?

Sensors (such as cameras and range finders) and most vehicle features (such as lane assist, adaptive cruise control and various map softs) and it's own onboard autopilot (and it's locally loaded autosofts) don't suddenly stop working just because the vehicle is not connected via wifi....
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: hulka on <09-01-20/1523:07>
Thanks, I had a slightly different idea of how the Grid Guide works.
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: penllawen on <09-01-20/1732:00>
Thanks, I had a slightly different idea of how the Grid Guide works.
Donít worry about it, the canon is pretty thin for this stuff. Itís why it comes up so often!
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: Sir Ludwig on <09-01-20/2122:11>
MC,

Invisible mages running across a busy street.  Guess that is why we have those pictures on lawn mowers that tell you not to stick your fingers into the blades.

Who would be at fault if they are hit?  GG, driver/owner of vech/invisible mage?  Sounds like I got a game idea where the runners are hired to get proof the mages where invisible for (insurance company, GG, driver). To help win the case.

Regards,
SL
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: Hobbes on <09-02-20/0949:44>
The Mage would be liable for damages from their activities.  Magical or Mundane. 

If you lay out in a crosswalk in your concrete themed ghillie suit the driver that runs you over isn't at fault.

It's like throwing out concealed objects on the road, if they cause damage you're liable.  Even if that object is your own spine.
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: Sir Ludwig on <09-02-20/2221:20>
Hobbes,

I understand that by letter of the law that is how it should work.  I also watch the news each morning and get bombarded by the "have you been hurt on the job" or "Is your employer not paying you fairly"?  Also, I had owned a large industrial building that received roof hail damage.  We even had video's of the hail from security cameras.  Took me 18 months to get them to pay the claim.  That being said, I wondered what would happen on insurance companies when you got people that can cast invisibility. 

Best,
SL
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <09-02-20/2246:07>
Convincing some deserving beneficiary to drop a lawsuit on behalf of a Mr J working for the insurance company is exactly the kind of job that counts as "Working for the Man".
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: Hobbes on <09-02-20/2310:39>
Hobbes,

I understand that by letter of the law that is how it should work.  I also watch the news each morning and get bombarded by the "have you been hurt on the job" or "Is your employer not paying you fairly"?  Also, I had owned a large industrial building that received roof hail damage.  We even had video's of the hail from security cameras.  Took me 18 months to get them to pay the claim.  That being said, I wondered what would happen on insurance companies when you got people that can cast invisibility. 

Best,
SL

So, it costs money to litigate, even when you win.  A lot of Insurance companies simply settle to avoid the litigation costs and eliminate the risk of a huge judgement.  So, yes, even when your cause is virtuous and just, some money guy may just write a check 'cause it's not worth the risk/expense to pay the other guy off.

Intent comes into it.  Was there an opportunity to avoid the damage also plays a factor.  At least that is what I was told in the very boring lectures I needed to sit through to get my Series 6 License. 

And yes, Insurance companies don't write out (presumably) 6 (7?  8?) figure checks easily.  The one I briefly worked for resented the three figure checks they had to cough up occasionally for me  ; ) 
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: Reaver on <09-02-20/2312:00>
MC,

Invisible mages running across a busy street.  Guess that is why we have those pictures on lawn mowers that tell you not to stick your fingers into the blades.

Who would be at fault if they are hit?  GG, driver/owner of vech/invisible mage?  Sounds like I got a game idea where the runners are hired to get proof the mages where invisible for (insurance company, GG, driver). To help win the case.

Regards,
SL

It hasn't been touched on much in the recent editions (there is a blurb in Street Grimoire), but when magic is involved, it is always considered a premeditated act...

Now, how would that apply to a mage crossing a street while invisible? Suicide sounds like the likely investigative result.
("Why would a mage walk out into traffic while Invisible if NOT to commit Suicide? There is no chance anyone or any sensor could see him..")

However,, keep in mind, mages that can actually cast spells are in the very much minority. (5% of the population is awakened, which includes all types of awakened. So spell casters are going to be rare, spell casters that also know invisibility, less so.. )

While I could see Insurance companies trying this stunt, the number of times it would come up would be minuscule compared to all the other new scams for insurance fraud that the wireless matrix opens up.... and the legal and financial ramifications of said "wireless fun"....
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: Ghost Rigger on <08-09-21/1310:00>
GridGuide can still see the car through all the subscribed vehicles their sensors, but it sure won't like you.
GridGuide sees car that doesn't have a GridGuide Subscription.

GridGuide makes sure it doesn't get any lane change options in order to hit every red light on its way to its destination.

GridGuide almost has a garbage truck merge into the lane that the Ghost Car is in.

GridGuide boxes the Ghost Car with a bunch of minimum subscription cars and makes the person in this box watch as higher tiered members roll right on by in what used to be the carpool lane.

GridGuide makes sure there's a cop close to the Ghost Car if it's speeding.  Ticket time.
Necroposting, but there are a number of wireless-off vehicles that should not be so poorly accommodated. High-security cargo transport, for instance, as well as VIP transport. In your opinion, how does Gridguide account for this?
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: Reaver on <08-09-21/2020:31>
GridGuide can still see the car through all the subscribed vehicles their sensors, but it sure won't like you.
GridGuide sees car that doesn't have a GridGuide Subscription.

GridGuide makes sure it doesn't get any lane change options in order to hit every red light on its way to its destination.

GridGuide almost has a garbage truck merge into the lane that the Ghost Car is in.

GridGuide boxes the Ghost Car with a bunch of minimum subscription cars and makes the person in this box watch as higher tiered members roll right on by in what used to be the carpool lane.

GridGuide makes sure there's a cop close to the Ghost Car if it's speeding.  Ticket time.
Necroposting, but there are a number of wireless-off vehicles that should not be so poorly accommodated. High-security cargo transport, for instance, as well as VIP transport. In your opinion, how does Gridguide account for this?

Graft.
Money talks.
Back room handshakes.

There are other ways to make things work for you then just a subsrciption. (Hello the entire shadow economy).
Besides, everything you described is exactly who would be subscribed to GG.

That VIP, or HTT needs clear roads, clear intersections and On/Off ramps: everything a GG subscription can provide.

Need a 2 block buuble around the Prez's motorcade? Gridgride does that. (Or well enough with what, 90% of traffic routed through it)
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: Ghost Rigger on <08-10-21/2155:34>
Yes, but that overlooks that despite needing the benefits of Gridguide, the VIP or HTT also needs to have wireless turned off for maximum security. You can install manual override and gridguide override, but that doesn't remove the fundamental problem that as long as one has wireless turned on there's a non-zero chance the vehicle can bricked before you can do anything. Yes, you can put a top notch decker in the vehicle. That'll protect against any script kiddies, and it'll probably protect against any shadowrunners..........but at a certain point, "probably" isn't enough. And besides all that, we all know that the mantra of the super-rich is "rules for thee, but not for me". If I've got enough money, then I don't care that Gridguide only works when wireless is turned on; I want it to work when wireless is turned off, and someone is going to make it that way!

What I'm getting at is that I believe that at the highest level of Gridguide subscription, a secret level most people don't even know about, Gridguide will give you VIP treatment while you have wireless turned off; what I'm asking is how this might be achieved.

My preliminary thoughts on the matter are that perhaps such drives cannot be done spontaneously (by which I mean, there must be some warning to Gridguide beforehand, more than 5 minutes but no more 24 hours) and also that at least one accompanying vehicle must be connected to Gridguide....that there will be at least one accompanying vehicle is a given. After all, we are talking about a level of security where there is going to be a convoy rather than a single vehicle.
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-10-21/2215:48>
I think you're trying to swim upstream here, Ghost Rigger.

Frankly, if you absolutely must make your tippy top priority motorcade as unhackable as possible, just incorporate the vehicles inside a WAN run by the most epic host you have.  Get the best of both worlds:  you have gridguide to divert traffic out of your way, and you can't even be targeted for a hack until the enemy hacks their way past that epic host's event horizon.
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: MercilessMing on <08-11-21/1033:13>
Does that kind of set up still work in 6th?  PANs/WANs protected by a proper Host? 
Also, WANs should really be a proper thing in the game instead of just homebrew that makes sense.
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-11-21/1225:19>
To the best of my knowledge:

5e was worded in such a way that any devices slaved to a host could not be perceived by any personas outside that host. But, the writer's intent was apparently the opposite of that.

6e is worded similarly, with a new writer for the matrix rules... so 5e's writer's intent, whatever relevance it had in 5e, is much less so in 6e.

Regardless: The actual term WAN isn't used in 6e, but it's irrelevant.  It's archaic as of this edition. You absolutely can have hosts protect devices in 6e.  Afterall, a car is no different from a maglock, when it comes to how the matrix works.  And whether you need to be IN the host before hacking the maglock or the motorcade is irrelevant to whether or not the host and spiders' stats are invoked when trying to hack those devices.

As an aside: I don't want to overpromise but we are trying to get an official FAQ approved.  It will be very nice to get official answers on if, and when, you can spot devices protected by a host from outside a host, and many other things too.
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: Smogg on <08-11-21/1345:21>
In 5e it was very easy to protect and slave everything and I think the general consensus was to do just that, so that only hackers completely maxed (16 dice+) out had a shot at doing anything useful. In combat it was even worse as by the time the hacker had bricked that rifle, the street sam had already killed the guard and 3 of his friends.

Since 5e has been quite dominated by large online communities, I think a side effect is the impression that shadowrunners are everywhere and every man, woman, child and their pets needed to protect against hackers.

Personally my philosophy is that in the sixth world, people trust the matrix. Generally people won't get hacked even if their PAN is a meta link because:
- Matrix is build to protect against simple hacking (like that of todays script kiddies)
- Hacking is very illigal
- Cyberdecks and Cyberjacks are illigal and very expensive.
- Shadowrunners are relatively rare, expensive and illigal to hire.

My experience of 6e is that general matrix protection is limited especially with regard to Comlink-PANs. If you have a high end comlink, maybe you can protect a few favorite items, and not even that well. Items slaved to hosts can still be hacked wireless from the outside and generally the best way to protect against a hacker is to bring one.

I think this is extremly important because it gives the team hacker so many more options during a run and even during combat. There is no need to shut down the hacker. Let him bring some creativity to the table. And if you really want to, have a spider show up to occupy him.

I hope the Matrix book will bring some more details on hacking, but hopefully not in a way that limit the matrix role on the team as we saw in 5e. I mean just look at mages for comparason. There is no real general protection against magic except magic.

In case of a convoy that had to run on GridGuide and be wirless on and HAD to be protected, I would simply put in a spider of appropriate level to deal with any hostile hackers and likely a mage as well at that level. Your hacker wont be able to do much effective hacking while in matrix combat.


Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: Ghost Rigger on <08-11-21/1548:33>
I think you're trying to swim upstream here, Ghost Rigger.
Going to have to disagree. There is no reason Gridguide couldn't give a wireless-off vehicle the VIP treatment provided it could properly identify it.....which is a trivial matter, now that I've thought about it for a bit. A security tag would be sufficient for this purpose, and may have the added benefit of making the vehicle appear to have it's wireless turned on. I'd wager that a 5 nuyen security tag plus the secret VIP gridguide subscription is cheaper than lugging a good spider around, and it's more secure.
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: Hobbes on <08-11-21/1602:41>
I think you're trying to swim upstream here, Ghost Rigger.
Going to have to disagree. There is no reason Gridguide couldn't give a wireless-off vehicle the VIP treatment provided it could properly identify it.....which is a trivial matter, now that I've thought about it for a bit. A security tag would be sufficient for this purpose, and may have the added benefit of making the vehicle appear to have it's wireless turned on. I'd wager that a 5 nuyen security tag plus the secret VIP gridguide subscription is cheaper than lugging a good spider around, and it's more secure.

6th world VIPs don't travel in a throwback vehicle.  If it's a real VIP with significant security the vehicle is being driven by a Rigger, so will need to have some kind of wireless connection to do the Rigger thing.  The hacker will have to deal with a Jumped in Rigger before hijacking the vehicle wirelessly, and that isn't going to be subtle.  Bricking the RCC or dumping the Rigger is going to give the game up.  A meat space driver can flip the vehicle to wireless off once it's clear the Matrix defenses have been compromised. 
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: Ghost Rigger on <08-11-21/1612:21>
Or the rigger can be inside the vehicle with a wired connection. I honestly don't know why you'd want the rigging to be done remotely in this scenario.
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-11-21/1629:12>
Or the rigger can be inside the vehicle with a wired connection. I honestly don't know why you'd want the rigging to be done remotely in this scenario.

If you have a vehicle protected by a host, you're not gaining anything by putting the rigger's body physically inside the vehicle.  In fact, you're losing a seat that could have otherwise been occupied by another cybered up bodyguard.
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: Ghost Rigger on <08-11-21/1704:51>
If you have a vehicle protected by a host, you're not gaining anything by putting the rigger's body physically inside the vehicle.
Why is it protected by a host? I have already explained that it's trivial to set up a VIP vehicle to benefit from Gridguide while having it's wireless turned off. At this point you're just trying to justify an initial assumption.

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In fact, you're losing a seat that could have otherwise been occupied by another cybered up bodyguard.
Nah, you're breaking even because you don't need a spider anymore.
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: Xenon on <08-11-21/1830:25>
If you want to stay fully connected to GridGuide (access to real-time updated google maps, up-to-date traffic situation, fully self driving vehicle, status of next two-three traffic lights, recharging your vehicle via GridLink, etc) then you need to be wireless enabled. Full stop on this one.

If you wish to remain connected but without all the drawbacks (risk of getting remotely shut down, cannot exceed posted speed limits, etc) while also get access to a rotating identifier so you cannot be tracked for an extended period as well as still accessing GridLink for recharging your vehicle you would typically install a GridLink Override Electromagnetic Modification.

Hackers typically cannot remote control a vehicle that is already being remote controlled (unless the hacker have a control rig implant, the vehicle have a rigger interface and the hacker actually jump into the vehicle) and if a rigger is already jumped in then there is no way for a hacker to control the vehicle (at least as long as the rigger is not removed from the equation somehow). Remote control override is a risk while driving manually while the car is connected but ti mitigate this risk you would typically install the Manual Control Override Power Train Modification. While active the vehicle can only be manually controlled from within the vehicle (can also not be driven via AR or VR, not even from within the vehicle).

Even in areas of the city where GridGuide and GridLink are available I guess you can also still run your vehicle wireless disabled and drive the vehicle yourself without being connected at all. But in some areas of the city this might actually not be legal...! And I would imagine that driving through an intersection without traffic lights might become quite a challenge if your vehicle is not handshaking with all autonomous vehicles that are also driving through the intersection (at 80 mph from all four directions at the same time).
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-11-21/1841:04>
If you want to stay fully connected to GridGuide (access to real-time updated google maps, up-to-date traffic situation, fully self driving vehicle, status of next two-three traffic lights, recharging your vehicle via GridLink, etc) then you need to be wireless enabled. Full stop on this one.

Hard agree.

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If you wish to remain connected but without all the drawbacks (risk of getting remotely shut down, cannot exceed posted speed limits, etc) while also get access to a rotating identifier so you cannot be tracked for an extended period as well as still accessing GridLink for recharging your vehicle you would typically install a GridLink Override Electromagnetic Modification.

Depending on whether host event horizon is or is not in play, putting the rigger/vehicle matrix icon inside host is an alternative that's damn near a case of "get your cake AND eat it too".  Distance based Noise doesn't even factor in- ideal for a remotely driving Rigger!

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If you wish stay connected while still also making sure hackers will not remote control your vehicle you would typically install the Manual Control Override Power Train Modification. While active the vehicle can only be manually controlled from within the vehicle (no driving via AR or VR). But note that hackers typically cannot remote control a vehicle that is already being remote controlled (unless the hacker have a control rig implant, the vehicle have a rigger interface and the hacker actually jump into the vehicle) and if a rigger is already jumped in then there is no way for a hacker to control the vehicle (at least as long as the rigger is not removed from the equation somehow).

I mean you COULD... but there are better options.  Namely: hire a good rigger to drive and hire a good spider to perform overwatch.  Or... if you've already got a stout host anyway.....

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Even in areas of the city where GridGuide and GridLink are available I guess you can also still run your vehicle wireless disabled and drive the vehicle yourself without being connected at all. But in some areas of the city this might actually not be legal...! And I would imagine that driving through an intersection without traffic lights might become quite a challenge if your vehicle is not handshaking with all autonomous vehicles that are also driving through the intersection (at 80 mph from all four directions at the same time).

I happen to agree.  Running wireless-off (or without GridGuide) on GridLink equipped motorways is likely illegal in most jurisdictions.  For the exact reason you said: when everyone ELSE is on GG and whipping through intersections at carefully timed and spaced intervals under computer control, someone attempting to thread that cross traffic manually is a fragging hazard to themselves and everyone else around them.
Title: Re: 6E car transport
Post by: Xenon on <08-12-21/0608:37>
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If you wish to remain connected but without all the drawbacks (risk of getting remotely shut down, cannot exceed posted speed limits, etc) while also get access to a rotating identifier so you cannot be tracked for an extended period as well as still accessing GridLink for recharging your vehicle you would typically install a GridLink Override Electromagnetic Modification.

Depending on whether host event horizon is or is not in play, putting the rigger/vehicle matrix icon inside host is an alternative that's damn near a case of "get your cake AND eat it too".  Distance based Noise doesn't even factor in- ideal for a remotely driving Rigger!
If you want to be connected to GridLink without running GridLink Override then you are subject of getting remote shut down and cannot exceed posted speed limits. No matter if the vehicle out on the grid is slaved to a host or not.

But say your vehicle is having a GridLink Override Mod (or if you choose to not connect to GridGuide at all even though you are wireless enabled) being inside a host while remote controlling a vehicle out on the grid that is slaved to the host will for sure give the vehicle good matrix defenses (unless the hacker is inside the vehicle itself, using a physical direct connection, or if the hacker is inside host the vehicle is slaved to, in which case the hacker will be considered directly connected to the vehicle no matter where in the world it is located... in both cases this mean the hacker get to ignore noise and host ratings while hacking the vehicle).