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Paragons

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« on: <05-13-17/1950:11> »
Should Paragons give only Matrix bonuses? While such rules aren't out for 5th (and it seems there may not be any), there are plenty of players that houserule such. In fourth Paragons gave bonuses only to Matrix related actions (plus resonance bonuses, natch), however the Matrix worked differently. In comparison to Mentor Spirits, both 4th and 5th, TMs seem to lose out on being rounded out. A Cat Shaman can be hard to detect due to their stealthy abilities, however any TM with a Paragon is just as capable walking around as they are in a recliner.

Why shouldn't a Paragon give a bonuses to non-Matrix related activities?

Kiirnodel

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« Reply #1 on: <05-14-17/0517:49> »
Because Mentor Spirits can affect the physical world, because Magic can affect the physical world. Resonance can't, therefore Paragons can't.

Paragon's giving a bonus on a Resonant action as well as a non-Resonant Matrix Action makes more sense, and is in-line with the sort of bonuses that Mentor Spirits give. They have a "general" bonus and a Magic-related bonus. Technomancy is still limited to the Matrix (or at least interactions with devices) so their "general" bonus would still have to be equally tech-related.

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« Reply #2 on: <05-14-17/1526:58> »
Resonance can't, therefore Paragons can't.

A high Level Puppeteer targeting that 18-wheeler begs to differ. :P

Nonetheless having a Paragon or Mentor Spirit influences the way you see and interact with the world. I don't think it unreasonable for someone with the Probe Paragon to get +2 to Perception or Alias to Disguise.

Kiirnodel

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« Reply #3 on: <05-14-17/2155:18> »
Resonance can't, therefore Paragons can't.

A high Level Puppeteer targeting that 18-wheeler begs to differ. :P

Only if that 18-wheeler is active on the Matrix, Puppeteer can't do anything if a device is wireless-off. It isn't affecting the physical world it's manipulating the Matrix.

Mirikon

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« Reply #4 on: <05-15-17/0015:20> »
Resonance can't, therefore Paragons can't.

A high Level Puppeteer targeting that 18-wheeler begs to differ. :P

Only if that 18-wheeler is active on the Matrix, Puppeteer can't do anything if a device is wireless-off. It isn't affecting the physical world it's manipulating the Matrix.

But since most of the 18-wheelers are rigger controlled by remote, or at least actively tracked by their corporations, that gives you the 'in' you need to get in and control the vehicle. Unless it is an independent owner-operator, the truck almost certainly is going to be connected to the Matrix, unless someone deliberately took the connectivity offline (such as when they're stealing the rig).
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Novocrane

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« Reply #5 on: <05-15-17/0046:26> »
Because Mentor Spirits can affect the physical world
Not exactly. They can affect followers.

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Your mentor spirit can have significant influence over you
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It can be seen and heard by those it chooses, and even physically interact with its followers.

Kiirnodel

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« Reply #6 on: <05-15-17/0223:03> »
But since most of the 18-wheelers are rigger controlled by remote, or at least actively tracked by their corporations, that gives you the 'in' you need to get in and control the vehicle. Unless it is an independent owner-operator, the truck almost certainly is going to be connected to the Matrix, unless someone deliberately took the connectivity offline (such as when they're stealing the rig).

Sure, but that's my point, Resonance needs the connection through the Matrix to affect things. Resonance can't make a flower do its bidding, for example. Remember, this was in response to the question "Why shouldn't Paragons give their followers bonuses outside of the Matrix?"

You asked for a reason why the shouldn't, so I answered that question. That's my answer: the Matrix can't affect the physical world without devices to act through. Magic can affect the physical world, which is why the influence of Mentor Spirits has an effect on some physical skills of their followers.

Now, if you ask what updated Paragons should provide in 5th edition, I'm not necessarily against them giving more bonuses to a broader variety of things. By and large Mentor Spirits were expanded to provide bonuses to a much more standardized list of things. Each one gives a bonus to some sort of physical skill, plus a Magical bonus related to the type of Awakened.

Personally, I think by-and-large most of the bonuses for Paragons should be kept primarily to the Matrix (again, they are a much more limited entity than Spirits). Having the Paragons give a bonus on a general skill plus a Resonant related ability would make sense and keep them somewhat in-line with Mentor Spirits. In 4th edition, Daedalus for example gave a bonus on Hardware tests and Machine/Fault sprites. Making them both +2 falls in line with the bonus that Mentor Spirits give.

But the description of Paragons never says anything about changing the way Technomancers interact with the world (at large), it is actually almost the opposite, it distinctly talks about how Paragons alter a Technomancer's manipulation of Resonance:
Quote from: Unwired pg 149
In game terms, allegiance to a paragon alters a technomancer’s behavior and affects how she manipulates Resonance in both positive and negative ways—reflected by certain advantages and disadvantages. A technomancer gains bonus dice when modulating Resonance (through the use of complex forms, skills, threading, or the use of Compiling) in accordance with the paragon’s area of influence.

During communion, a Technomancer's Paragon " gifted them with deeper insight into the Matrix and its digital mechanisms." Not sure where you think Probe, "the scout of the Matrix," makes you see the physical world any better.

Novocrane

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« Reply #7 on: <05-15-17/0305:12> »
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Not sure where you think Probe, "the scout of the Matrix," makes you see the physical world any better.
I imagine, in hypothetical, it would work similar to how an Attention Co-Processor allows you to observe better without actually helping you see better.

Moonshine Fox

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« Reply #8 on: <05-15-17/1119:06> »
During communion, a Technomancer's Paragon " gifted them with deeper insight into the Matrix and its digital mechanisms." Not sure where you think Probe, "the scout of the Matrix," makes you see the physical world any better.

Pattern recognition. Probe teaches you how to pick out the various patterns that repeat in specific relation or sequence to others and how to spot when code don't belong. While this skill would have nothing to do with the eyeballs, they still train you how to be observant of things around you in a way that could translate from pixel to meat.

Kiirnodel

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« Reply #9 on: <05-15-17/1636:49> »
Still think it would make just as much sense to have it give +2 on Matrix Perception and Matrix Search and +2 on Data Sprites