[Overbyte]

1. Augmentation only applies to Augmentations, as Lightning Reflexes shows the clear distinction between Augmentation, Magical, & Chemical in its wording.

Actually the wording for Lightning Reflexes doesn't say that at all. It talks about various ways to get "initiative enhancement":
"This quality is not cumulative with any other Initiative enhancement, be it technological, chemical, or magical."
And since it says initiative you can IMO probably stack reaction enhancements with it (see below).

2. Initiative only applies to Initiative, not the nebulous 3 different attributes you keep trying to fit it into. Reaction is Reaction, Intuition is Intuition, & Initiative is Initiative. The Move by Wire System shows that Initiative isn't even bound by the +4 Augmented Bonus Maximum like a regular attribute is.

I totally agree. I'm not sure why people want to read "Initiative" as other attributes.

Really. All these limitations are just placed there for crunch reasons not fluff. Like the 5d6 initiative dice limit or the +4 augmentation limit.
They just don't want people stacking to ridiculous levels, so the GM should just be the arbiter of all this. But generally speaking I agree with what Zhoul is saying here. When it says Reaction, it means reaction, when it says Initiative it means Initiative (not Reaction). They are two separate things despite that one is figured from the other. It seems clear to me, and highly reasonable that you can stack Boosted Reflexes with Reaction enhancers. You get a different result, with different costs and different limitations than just taking Wired.

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

Lightning Reflexes is pretty much identical to Synaptic Acceleration I thought?  In what way is it different?

Lightning Reflexes stacks with Nothing! SA stacks with Reaction Enhancers, Drugs, & Increase Reflexes spell... so better in every way than Lightning Reflexes & Synaptic Booster 1. You can take a single level of it then supplement more Initiative Dice with Drugs or Spells.

someone really should do a spreadsheet what stacks with what

I would, if we only could come to some sort of consensus if
1) augmentation only applies to cyberware and bioware of if it also include spells, drugs, adept powers etc.
and if
2) increases to initiative actually mean anything that increases [physical] initiative (the sum of many parts) or if it only mean direct increases to physical initiative attribute or physical initiative dice.

.

1. Augmentation only applies to Augmentations, as Lightning Reflexes shows the clear distinctionbetween Augmentation, Magical, & Chemical in its wording.

2. Initiative only applies to Initiative, not the nebulous 3 different attributes you keep trying to fit it into. Reaction is Reaction, Intuition is Intuition, & Initiative is Initiative. The Move by Wire System shows that Initiative isn't even bound by the +4 Augmented Bonus Maximum like a regular attribute is.

We had a good compatability chart going on a thread a while back that included everything up to Lockdown. It's fallen back but that would make a good Sticky to keep right at the top for easy reference.

Unless you are talking about Missions games, where it has been specifically clarified that cyber, bio, magic, drugs, and anything else that increase something 'augments' it.

So why doesn't the book do that then? Or is because Missions is essentially an Official Houserule campaign? Which further makes the point that according to Core they aren't the same at all. Cause that's how I see it... since Missions restricts certain Qualities & other things in an effort to create a certain power level, it's Houserule not RAW. If Missions is really RAI, then there was a Splatbook that just came out called Chromed Flesh... that would have been the most appropriate place ever to address RAI to RAW.

[The Masked Ferret]

Unless you are talking about Missions games, where it has been specifically clarified that cyber, bio, magic, drugs, and anything else that increase something 'augments' it.

So why doesn't the book do that then? Or is because Missions is essentially an Official Houserule campaign? Which further makes the point that according to Core they aren't the same at all. Cause that's how I see it... since Missions restricts certain Qualities & other things in an effort to create a certain power level, it's Houserule not RAW. If Missions is really RAI, then there was a Splatbook that just came out called Chromed Flesh... that would have been the most appropriate place ever to address RAI to RAW.

Agreed, However, Mission's response to Chrome Flesh has not yet been released. We may see one before Gencon.

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

Unless you are talking about Missions games, where it has been specifically clarified that cyber, bio, magic, drugs, and anything else that increase something 'augments' it.

So why doesn't the book do that then? Or is because Missions is essentially an Official Houserule campaign? Which further makes the point that according to Core they aren't the same at all. Cause that's how I see it... since Missions restricts certain Qualities & other things in an effort to create a certain power level, it's Houserule not RAW. If Missions is really RAI, then there was a Splatbook that just came out called Chromed Flesh... that would have been the most appropriate place ever to address RAI to RAW.

Agreed, However, Mission's response to Chrome Flesh has not yet been released. We may see one before Gencon.

That's just going to be more Houserules... I'm saying that if Missions is RAI then they should have included it into Chromed Flesh as RAW. If Catalyst wants all things that give enhancements to be considered Augments, then they should have addressed it. But they didn't, so by RAI & RAW they are different distinctions as has been made by Core and never redressed.

[Xenon]

SR5 could be better at what terminology they use. They interchangeable use different words for the same thing and the same word for different meanings. This make many of their rules ambiguous and unnecessarily hard to interpret correctly.

Searching for the word Augmentation throughout the entire book it is my reading that this is Cyberware and Bioware. And that the +4 limit mentioned on p. 94 only applies to cyberware and bioware as a blanket general rule. If a piece of cyberware or bioware can break this limit then it need to be a specific rule that override the general (most augmentations that increase attributes does not mention any limit... they don't have to since all augmentations obey the +4 general rule).

It is further my reading that spells, adept powers and chemical substances that increase attributes does not obey the +4 augmented blanket general rule. If a spell, adept power or chemical substance have a limit then there need to be a specific rule that say so (which is why most spells and adept powers that increase attributes do have this specific extra rule).


After that Missions came out with their interpretation where they extended the general blanket rule of a +4 limit to include all spells, adept powers, chemical substances etc.


This is why I am no longer sure if "augmentations" specifically only include cyberware and bioware or if "augmentations" just talk about "increases" / "enhancements" in general and include everything.

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

K-10 & Custom Drugs both specifically mention that the +4 limit can't be broken with Drugs. Adept Powers are pretty self limiting in this regard,  but hey if someone wanted to take a +6 to one physical attribute  (depending on how much I liked them... sometimes it's nice to have inbuilt problems to make fun of how useless a character is) I'd definitely lobby they should be able to do it. If it was a friend I'd just explain how retarded it was to do that & help make a better character.

[Overbyte]

Searching for the word Augmentation throughout the entire book it is my reading that this is Cyberware and Bioware. And that the +4 limit mentioned on p. 94 only applies to cyberware and bioware as a blanket general rule.

I read it like this also (cyber/bio-ware is augmentation). I mean hell.. there is a whole book called "Augmentation". However, I am guessing for crunch reasons RAI may well be that anything that increases an attribute is "augmentation", so you don't have peeps with unlimited stats.

It is further my reading that spells, adept powers and chemical substances that increase attributes does not obey the +4 augmented blanket general rule. If a spell, adept power or chemical substance have a limit then there need to be a specific rule that say so (which is why most spells and adept powers that increase attributes do have this specific extra rule).

The description for Increase Attribute in SR5 it says "The Attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored, up to the target’s augmented maximum". So clearly they didn't want magic to exceed the +4.

[Bulshock]

My reading of how drugs interact with things is that they are a type of augmentation with regards to mechanics, albeit temporary ones.  Does this sound wrong?

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

My reading of how drugs interact with things is that they are a type of augmentation with regards to mechanics, albeit temporary ones.  Does this sound wrong?

That very well could be RAI but it sure isn't RAW... and the cluster fuck the Drugs Section of Chromed Flesh turned into definitely didn't change their basic operating system. We did get a ridiculous Drug Interaction Table that quickly becomes lethal using a Drug &;Stimm Patches... don't ever add a Trauma Patch on top of that. Bleeding out & dying slow will let your character live longer.

[Reaver]

Here, take all of this:

<hands zhoul crystal meth, cocaine, crack cocaine, 8oz of whiskey, herion, and a joint>

Now, drink, snort, smoke all that.

<stands back, starts watch>

In about 2 minutes you'll feel you're on top of the world.
In 20 minutes you'll be doing the funky chicken on the ground.
In 23 minutes you'll be dead.


People OD on drugs of ALL sorts at an alarming rate. I can't find it anymore, but I remember reading at the LA hospitals see about 500 cases of overdosing a DAY!

Heck, thanks to some really bad heroin in the BC coast and 70 OD deaths in 5 days, they issued a public service announcment here just last week.

Now, I havn't seen the drug rules yet (and won't till the physical book comes out) but I would expect mixing drugs to get lethal right quick!

In fact, in BC the 2 biggest drugs are Pot and booze. What a lot of people don't seem to get is that this is actually a VERY lethal combination! Normally when you drink, you will usually reach a point where you just can not drink any more, and you body starts rejecting the alcohol. (IE: you're shit faced, and start vomitting).
However, THC retards your vomit reflex, thus allowing you to keep that full belly of booze, and even continue to drink! And.... you get alcohol poisoning.

It happens so much here in BC that we even have a name for it:
"Green alcohol poisoning"

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

Wow... there's so much wrong there I'm not sure where to start. Ok... Pot & Booze can be lethal but only to idiot kids who don't know any better. Anyone with a lick of sense & experience that's never going to be an issue,real junkies aren't even doing pot & booze. Then you mentioned Bad Drugs... the Drugs themselves are bad, which seeing as how we have the option for Pharmaceutical Grade & Designer Grade even above Standard Grade, Bad Drugs are the issue there either. Finally your original example... the Drug Interaction Table would cover that. Where taking Drugs that effect the same Attributes causes heavy Stun Damage. The 8oz of Whiskey is the most dangerous thing there unless I'm being given what would count as 8 doses of every other Drug in the game as well.

Which leads me to wonder... do you have any extensive drug use experience? Cause I don't see why I would have any reason to do all those different drugs at once. That's idiot kid who doesn't know any better behavior again. So I shoot up the Crystal Meth (liked Crank better for injecting)... the Coke/Crack is just annoying to do now, the whiskey/herion/weed are all downers. So there might be a Social reason to have some liquor or weed, but that's just a glass in my hand or pass the joint around at the party thing not idiot kid behavior of drinking 8 shots of liquor which is only going to ruin the high. But there are drugs on that list that do go together quite well... a Speedball, which is where you shoot up the herion & coke. Great coke rush but instead of a quick crash you have a nice slow slide into a nod.

The old Drug Interaction effects from core are way better than the new Drug interaction Table which means you can't use Stimm or Trauma Patches without problems. Sure took much of anything is bad... I have a job as a Commercial Diver where things like O2 Toxicity & Nitrogen Narcocious are serious issues that need to be watched out for. Where the very air we breathe can become poisonous or a narcotic. But to make the Mechanics of the game that punishing is not right. To prevent the use of Stimm & Trauma Patches as well as messing up some good speedballs like Cram/Psyche, not useful.

[Sterling]

Wow... there's so much wrong there I'm not sure where to start. Ok... Pot & Booze can be lethal but only to idiot kids who don't know any better. Anyone with a lick of sense & experience that's never going to be an issue,real junkies aren't even doing pot & booze. Then you mentioned Bad Drugs... the Drugs themselves are bad, which seeing as how we have the option for Pharmaceutical Grade & Designer Grade even above Standard Grade, Bad Drugs are the issue there either. Finally your original example... the Drug Interaction Table would cover that. Where taking Drugs that effect the same Attributes causes heavy Stun Damage. The 8oz of Whiskey is the most dangerous thing there unless I'm being given what would count as 8 doses of every other Drug in the game as well.

Which leads me to wonder... do you have any extensive drug use experience? Cause I don't see why I would have any reason to do all those different drugs at once. That's idiot kid who doesn't know any better behavior again. So I shoot up the Crystal Meth (liked Crank better for injecting)... the Coke/Crack is just annoying to do now, the whiskey/herion/weed are all downers. So there might be a Social reason to have some liquor or weed, but that's just a glass in my hand or pass the joint around at the party thing not idiot kid behavior of drinking 8 shots of liquor which is only going to ruin the high. But there are drugs on that list that do go together quite well... a Speedball, which is where you shoot up the herion & coke. Great coke rush but instead of a quick crash you have a nice slow slide into a nod.

The old Drug Interaction effects from core are way better than the new Drug interaction Table which means you can't use Stimm or Trauma Patches without problems. Sure took much of anything is bad... I have a job as a Commercial Diver where things like O2 Toxicity & Nitrogen Narcocious are serious issues that need to be watched out for. Where the very air we breathe can become poisonous or a narcotic. But to make the Mechanics of the game that punishing is not right. To prevent the use of Stimm & Trauma Patches as well as messing up some good speedballs like Cram/Psyche, not useful.

Sheesh!

It's good to see you have an active imagination.

Tell me, are you familiar with the ADC requirements for random drug testing?

[Reaver]

Hey, you're the one saying "why can't I take a stimulant, a depressant, a cogaulant, and a amphedamine without problems??"

ANY time you mix a cocktail of meds together, bad things happen fast.

There are many combinations of perscriptions for average, every day drugs that lead to lethal consiquences.

Taking a Viagra while on nitrates results in lethal low blood pressure.

Taking amphedamines while on kidney medication results in liver damage.

Many meds for mental disordes have a severe adverse reaction when combined with alcohol.

My father's eye medication, his goudt meds, and his blood pressure meds caused him to go into cardiac arrest. - and those were prescribed by his fucking doctor!!


So yes, I have SEEN first hand what drug interactions can do.


EVERY YEAR, I attend at least 2 services for fallen brothers/sisters who die from overdoses, be it drugs or alcohol. (The industrial constuction trades have a high incidence of drug and alcohol use.)

It takes far less to kill you then you think when you start mixing drugs. And the new drug table in Chrome Flesh reflects this. Is it perfect? No, but it IS more realistic.

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

Sheesh!

It's good to see you have an active imagination.

Tell me, are you familiar with the ADC requirements for random drug testing?

Unfortunately none of that is based on my imagination, I was not a good kid. But I've never gotten O2 Toxicity at work (that's a bad time if it doesn't kill you & you have to stay in a hyperbaric chamber for at 3 days minimum) but I've definitely been Narc'd at work with isn't that dangerous cause the supervisor is yelling at you in your dive helmet. SCUBA diving it's scarier... saw a video of a guy in Poland who got confused and walked down instead of up reading his depth gauge wrong til he died.

Hey, you're the one saying "why can't I take a stimulant, a depressant, a cogaulant, and a amphedamine without problems??"

ANY time you mix a cocktail of meds together, bad things happen fast.

There are many combinations of perscriptions for average, every day drugs that lead to lethal consiquences.

Taking a Viagra while on nitrates results in lethal low blood pressure.

Taking amphedamines while on kidney medication results in liver damage.

Many meds for mental disordes have a severe adverse reaction when combined with alcohol.

My father's eye medication, his goudt meds, and his blood pressure meds caused him to go into cardiac arrest. - and those were prescribed by his fucking doctor!!


So yes, I have SEEN first hand what drug interactions can do.


EVERY YEAR, I attend at least 2 services for fallen brothers/sisters who die from overdoses, be it drugs or alcohol. (The industrial constuction trades have a high incidence of drug and alcohol use.)

It takes far less to kill you then you think when you start mixing drugs. And the new drug table in Chrome Flesh reflects this. Is it perfect? No, but it IS more realistic.

Yes... there are of course bad Drug interactions but they shouldn't be a surprise every time. OD's happen for 3 main reasons.... the Drugs themselves are bad (not an issue if using Standard, Pharmaceutical, Designer Grade), people are shooting up their regular doses in unfamiliar settings because your body doesn't have it's normal start up period (why most rock stars or actors die right at the start of tours or finishing movies), or they are trying to kill themselves on purpose. The amount of people who actually die from doing drugs in comparison to the amount of people who do drugs is a very small percentage.

Things like Nitrates & Viagra are dangerous not because they are that dangerous but because it's an old person with a weak heart already. The majority of prescription drug dangers come from the fact that those aren't healthy people taking them. They don't have the resilience to have any minor issues go wrong because their body is already not functioning correctly. A young man can take Viagra & Nitrates (though why he's taking nitrates is a mystery) and the worst that's going to happen is that he feels woozy.

I'm again trying to figure out why you imagine junkies are taking all these different drugs simultaneously? Sure I had those kinds of days but they were very rare and it was over the course of the entire day. Where me & my roommate had drank beers in the morning, got some crystal for lunch, snorted some coke when our other roommate got home in the afternoon, taken some X when a buddy came over that evening, smoked some weed & drank at the party that night. Sure my roommate that I started the morning with who had physical tourettes ended up spazzing out and I had to sit with him and blow weed in his face till his body calmed down for about an hour... but I was fine. So was he once we got his tourettes to stop acting up, which again is a case of a preexisting problem being exasperated not something that was inherently caused by the drugs in the first place. So using unhealthy peoples reactions in comparison to healthy peoples reaction to the exact same stimuli is disingenuous at best.

[prionic6]

I agree that the drug interactions are unrealistic, especially for higher grade drugs (pharmaceutical). But we don't know what these turbo-future-drugs contain... Someone who knows about medicine should at least be somewhat able to predict the kind of side effects that would happen.

On the other hand, combining two drugs is generally safe - the worst that will happen is the doubling of the crash effects. Mixing three or four drugs gets dangerous really fast though. It may be needed for game balace.