Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: markelphoenix on <08-01-20/1851:44>

Title: SR6 Cyber Torso Question/Calrification
Post by: markelphoenix on <08-01-20/1851:44>
In Cyberlimbs section, it states that cyber skulls do not have an agility or strength attribute. It does not mention Torsos not having agility or strength stat. Is this intentional? If so, when would you penalize a player to use the Torsos' lower stats if the Torsos str and agi score are less than their cyber arms and cyber legs?
Title: Re: SR6 Cyber Torso Question/Calrification
Post by: Sir Ludwig on <08-02-20/2151:16>
We play it like Cyber Skulls. 

Hope that helps.

Best,
SL
Title: Re: SR6 Cyber Torso Question/Calrification
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-02-20/2246:48>
The relevant rule is on pg 288:

Quote
Attributes for limbs may vary, but dice pools
are always built from the lowest attribute of all
the limbs unless the test solely involves that singular
location (gamemaster’s discretion).

The question at hand is in turn answered by asking more questions:

Does the task the character is performing require the use of more of your body than just the limb in question?
If "No": then use the stats of that limb.
If "Yes": then use the lowest stat of ANY involved body part, to include the cybertorso as it is a cyber"limb". 

Now very few physical acts do NOT involve your core/torso, but it's a generally accepted convention that an attack can be resolved via the attributes of a single limb.  So, the "gamemaster's discretion" is the key wildcard in this rule.
Title: Re: SR6 Cyber Torso Question/Calrification
Post by: Xenon on <08-03-20/0749:27>
...ANY involved body part
Any involved limb, not body part.

Unless things changed in 6th edition a human body have 4 limbs. 2 legs and 2 arms.


SR5 p. 455 Cyberlimbs
Cyberskulls and –torsos are included in the “cyberlimbs” category, though they are in fact shells rather than full replacements (or actual limbs).


Edit. Nope. Same in SR6. A human body still have 4 limbs. 2 legs and 2 arms.

SR6 p. cyberlimbs 288
Limbs are operable appendages, skulls are a shell but also offer neck and face movement, and a torso is casing for the ribs but also replaces all the muscles of the core (having abs of steel becomes a literal thing).
Title: Re: SR6 Cyber Torso Question/Calrification
Post by: markelphoenix on <08-03-20/0818:58>
...ANY involved body part
Any involved limb, not body part.

Unless things changed in 6th edition a human body have 4 limbs. 2 legs and 2 arms.


SR5 p. 455 Cyberlimbs
Cyberskulls and –torsos are included in the “cyberlimbs” category, though they are in fact shells rather than full replacements (or actual limbs).


Edit. Nope. Same in SR6. A human body still have 4 limbs. 2 legs and 2 arms.

SR6 p. cyberlimbs 288
Limbs are operable appendages, skulls are a shell but also offer neck and face movement, and a torso is casing for the ribs but also replaces all the muscles of the core (having abs of steel becomes a literal thing).

At this point, I hope they add to Errata an explicit call of torso beside skull in regards to not having an Agility or Strength score.
Title: Re: SR6 Cyber Torso Question/Calrification
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-03-20/0919:35>
...ANY involved body part
Any involved limb, not body part.

Unless things changed in 6th edition a human body have 4 limbs. 2 legs and 2 arms.


SR5 p. 455 Cyberlimbs
Cyberskulls and –torsos are included in the “cyberlimbs” category, though they are in fact shells rather than full replacements (or actual limbs).


Edit. Nope. Same in SR6. A human body still have 4 limbs. 2 legs and 2 arms.

SR6 p. cyberlimbs 288
Limbs are operable appendages, skulls are a shell but also offer neck and face movement, and a torso is casing for the ribs but also replaces all the muscles of the core (having abs of steel becomes a literal thing).

Cybertorsos are a type of cyberlimb. 

In 6e, refer to page 288.  Under the cyberlimb section, it lists the types as Skull, Torso, Arms, Legs. 

I don't think there's any valid ground to stand on to try to say that a cybertorso is NOT a cyberlimb.

Ergo, the standard metahuman body has a potential SIX cyberlimbs.  Now unlike 5e we no longer have to average across all involved body parts... just take the weakest link in 6e for the dice pool.
Title: Re: SR6 Cyber Torso Question/Calrification
Post by: penllawen on <08-03-20/1014:44>
I don't think there's any valid ground to stand on to try to say that a cybertorso is NOT a cyberlimb.
Other than the fact that torsos are very definitely not limbs...

I mean, I get what you’re saying, and I’d rule that way myself. But the nomenclature could use changing to match this, if it is indeed the intent.
Title: Re: SR6 Cyber Torso Question/Calrification
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-03-20/1059:48>
Torsos are not limbs, sure. But that's a non sequitur as the issue at hand involves neither torsos nor limbs, but cybertorsos and Cyberlimbs instead.

Cybertorsos are absolutely a form of cyberlimb. And therefore governed by the rules for Cyberlimbs.
Title: Re: SR6 Cyber Torso Question/Calrification
Post by: penllawen on <08-03-20/1125:20>
You can see why new players could be confused though, surely?
Title: Re: SR6 Cyber Torso Question/Calrification
Post by: Sir Ludwig on <08-03-20/1445:35>
SSD

Thanks for the call out.  I knew how it use to be but had a new player argue / rule book me as we were wrapping up a game.  I missed the muscle comment about torso p288, and will make the change I. Our game.  Additional, Penllawen make a good point.

Missing 5th edition has made me rusty.
Best,
SL
Title: Re: SR6 Cyber Torso Question/Calrification
Post by: markelphoenix on <08-03-20/1502:55>
SSD

Thanks for the call out.  I knew how it use to be but had a new player argue / rule book me as we were wrapping up a game.  I missed the muscle comment about torso p288, and will make the change I. Our game.  Additional, Penllawen make a good point.

Missing 5th edition has made me rusty.
Best,
SL

Personally, I think best homerule is Torso is treated same as skull. Seems too prone to gm / player conflict on what does and doesn't require torso strength and agility
Title: Re: SR6 Cyber Torso Question/Calrification
Post by: Xenon on <08-03-20/1536:50>
Language in 6th edition is perhaps not very 'strict' and you can often no longer do a 'strict' reading of the rules it seems... :-/

But a *strict* reading of 5th edition stated that arms and legs were *limbs* while torso and skull where *shells*. And test were either using the lowest rating of all *limbs* involved (careful coordination) or the average rating of all *limbs* involved (no careful coordination needed). it specifically says *limbs* (which include arms and legs but not torso and skull) rather than *cyberlimbs* (which could perhaps also include torso and skull).

In 6th edition we now always use the lower rating (so we don't have to worry about when average values should be applied or not). And in 6th edition skull explicitly don't count (so we know that we don't have to worry about that either) - but that also mean that the intent seem to be that attribute values for torso now *do* count (at least for activities that involve the whole body; such as sprinting, climbing, swimming, etc).

But since cyberlimbs are now restricted to augmented maximum of +4 and since stacking armor don't really give you a benefit once you secured your tactical advantage I doubt that we will see many characters with full body replacements so the question how to resolve it is probably moot anyway.


In Cyberlimbs section, it states that cyber skulls do not have an agility or strength attribute. It does not mention Torsos not having agility or strength stat. Is this intentional? If so, when would you penalize a player to use the Torsos' lower stats if the Torsos str and agi score are less than their cyber arms and cyber legs?
In this case:

SR6 p. 290 Cyberlimb Accessories - Attribute Increase
If an activity could reasonably be interpreted to use the whole body in some way (e.g., sprinting, climbing, swimming), then the cyberlimb increase would not apply.
Title: Re: SR6 Cyber Torso Question/Calrification
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-03-20/1602:35>
The issue of this cyberlimb completely replacing all biological matter and that cyberlimb being a shell and leaving wet stuff inside is irrelevant to the question of "is the shell a cyberlimb".

Whether any meat remains behind is irrelevant to whether a cybertorso is a cyberlimb or not.

Where are the rules for cybertorsos?  Page 288.  More specifically, they're a nested subtype inside the cyberlimb heading.  They're a hierarchical peer to cyber arms and cyber legs. While literal readings can be landmined, typing cybertorsos as a kind of cyberlimb is not a misreading.  The intent isn't unclear. 

Indeed, if you were to argue that cybertorsos are NOT a cyberlimb despite being nested as a type under that heading, then by that same argument a Combat Axe is NOT a Blades weapon.

Frankly, that argument (just because it's nested under that type doesn't mean it's one of those types) is nonsense.
Title: Re: SR6 Cyber Torso Question/Calrification
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-03-20/1614:18>
Pedantry alert... this tangent won't be very much fun.  Just a heads up for people who only cared about the basic question on the face of the original post...

... And in 6th edition skull explicitly don't count (so we know that we don't have to worry about that either) - but that also mean that the intent seem to be that attribute values for torso now *do* count (at least for activities that involve the whole body; such as sprinting, climbing, swimming, etc).

Actually, the rule is:

"Note that Strength and Agility increases have
no effect when they are included in a cyberskull."

Not that "you don't count the Skull's relevance to an action if, somehow, the head's Strength or Agility is relevant to the action".  So if, for example, you're trying to bite someone, the cyberskull's attributes are pegged at the baseline 2 and if you do improve them, the increased value is ignored.

So even if you were to expand that rule to the torso, it wouldn't mean you ignore the torso's relevance in any physical action... you'd be ignoring any values beyond 2.  Obviously, this is a hypothetical rule expansion I heartily recommend against.
Title: Re: SR6 Cyber Torso Question/Calrification
Post by: markelphoenix on <08-03-20/1614:59>
Honestly, this just reinforces my cyberlimbs are trash view.
Title: Re: SR6 Cyber Torso Question/Calrification
Post by: dougansf on <08-03-20/1619:44>
Agreed with SSDR.

Skull has a specific rule breaking the general rule of cyber"limbs" that they get AGI and STR ratings. Torso is a cyberlimb, it lacks wording preventing attributes, so it can get them.
Title: Re: SR6 Cyber Torso Question/Calrification
Post by: Xenon on <08-03-20/1623:46>
"is the shell a cyberlimb".
I think you missed my point...


Limbs = arms and legs
Cyberlimbs = not only arms and legs but also torso and skull.


Whenever they use the word "Limbs" then, with a strict reading, they only talk about "arms and legs".
If they use the word "cyberlimbs" then they not only talk about "arms and legs but also torso and skull".


"take the average value of all limbs involved in the task." = arms and legs
"If a task requires the careful coordination of several limbs, use the value of the weakest limb." = arms and legs

"Cyberlimbs cannot hold any bioware, nor any cyber-implants that take up Essence rather than Capacity." = arms, legs, torso and skull
"Essence cost, Capacity, and other stats can be found on the Cyberlimb table." = arms, legs, torso and skull
"Cyberlimbs have other useful features." = arms, legs, torso and skull
"They give you 1 extra damage box on your Physical Condition Monitor for each cyberlimb you possess" = arms, legs, torso and skull
"Cyberlimbs can be dangerous even if they don’t have cyberweapons installed— their unarmed Damage Value is (STR)P." = arms, legs, torso and skull
Title: Re: SR6 Cyber Torso Question/Calrification
Post by: Xenon on <08-03-20/1632:41>
Pedantry alert... this tangent won't be very much fun.  Just a heads up for people who only cared about the basic question on the face of the original post...
To continue on that road.....

If a test involve your whole body then it actually doesn't matter if you increased all cyberlimbs, including cybertorso (and skull). The cyberlimb increase accessory does not apply. Hard stop.

SR6 p. 290 Cyberlimb Accessories - Attribute Increase
If an activity could reasonably be interpreted to use the whole body in some way (e.g., sprinting, climbing, swimming), then the cyberlimb increase would not apply.



Skull has a specific rule breaking the general rule of cyber"limbs" that they get AGI and STR ratings. Torso is a cyberlimb, it lacks wording preventing attributes, so it can get them.
Which is what I wrote here:

...in 6th edition skull explicitly don't count (so we know that we don't have to worry about that either) - but that also mean that the intent seem to be that attribute values for torso now *do* count
Title: Re: SR6 Cyber Torso Question/Calrification
Post by: markelphoenix on <08-03-20/1640:01>
"is the shell a cyberlimb".
I think you missed my point...


Limbs = arms and legs
Cyberlimbs = not only arms and legs but also torso and skull.


Whenever they use the word "Limbs" then, with a strict reading, they only talk about "arms and legs".
If they use the word "cyberlimbs" then they not only talk about "arms and legs but also torso and skull".


"take the average value of all limbs involved in the task." = arms and legs
"If a task requires the careful coordination of several limbs, use the value of the weakest limb." = arms and legs

"Cyberlimbs cannot hold any bioware, nor any cyber-implants that take up Essence rather than Capacity." = arms, legs, torso and skull
"Essence cost, Capacity, and other stats can be found on the Cyberlimb table." = arms, legs, torso and skull
"Cyberlimbs have other useful features." = arms, legs, torso and skull
"They give you 1 extra damage box on your Physical Condition Monitor for each cyberlimb you possess" = arms, legs, torso and skull
"Cyberlimbs can be dangerous even if they don’t have cyberweapons installed— their unarmed Damage Value is (STR)P." = arms, legs, torso and skull

Confused on Str adding to unarmed dmg. Feels more like an editing error for an example than an intentional mapping of cyber arms dmg code to str of arm.
Title: Re: SR6 Cyber Torso Question/Calrification
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-03-20/1655:31>
"is the shell a cyberlimb".
I think you missed my point...


Limbs = arms and legs
Cyberlimbs = not only arms and legs but also torso and skull.


Whenever they use the word "Limbs" then, with a strict reading, they only talk about "arms and legs".
If they use the word "cyberlimbs" then they not only talk about "arms and legs but also torso and skull".


"take the average value of all limbs involved in the task." = arms and legs
"If a task requires the careful coordination of several limbs, use the value of the weakest limb." = arms and legs

"Cyberlimbs cannot hold any bioware, nor any cyber-implants that take up Essence rather than Capacity." = arms, legs, torso and skull
"Essence cost, Capacity, and other stats can be found on the Cyberlimb table." = arms, legs, torso and skull
"Cyberlimbs have other useful features." = arms, legs, torso and skull
"They give you 1 extra damage box on your Physical Condition Monitor for each cyberlimb you possess" = arms, legs, torso and skull
"Cyberlimbs can be dangerous even if they don’t have cyberweapons installed— their unarmed Damage Value is (STR)P." = arms, legs, torso and skull

I did indeed miss your point.

However, there's a 2nd order problem with viewing it that way... if STR/AGI is only factored in when using an arm or leg, then adding STR/AGI is useless for torsos and skulls.  Yet we know it's only useless when added to a skull.  Ergo, you must get to use the STR/AGI on your cybertorso.  And by extension, it therefore has to have the potential be factored in... the best way to reconcile that is to consider the language you're citing as meaning "cyberlimb" when it says "limb".

I'm gonna quote you to support my argument against yours ;)

Language in 6th edition is perhaps not very 'strict' and you can often no longer do a 'strict' reading of the rules it seems... :-/
Title: Re: SR6 Cyber Torso Question/Calrification
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-03-20/1659:27>
Confused on Str adding to unarmed dmg. Feels more like an editing error for an example than an intentional mapping of cyber arms dmg code to str of arm.

It was a commonly overlooked 3rd paradigm for handling unarmed melee damage.  (the other two being STR/2+X, and static DVs)

Personally, it was my goal to unify the three different paradigms for calculating unarmed damage all into 1 universal paradigm.

The errata that got published... didn't use all my proposals. :P
Title: Re: SR6 Cyber Torso Question/Calrification
Post by: markelphoenix on <08-03-20/1701:28>
Hardening directly contradicts (Str) P

Hardening
Through this process, the skin/limb is hardened to make it more club-like and damaging. When at-tacking unarmed, the user has a DV of 3P (increase to 4P if Strength is 7 or greater) and a Close Attack Rating of 6.
Title: Re: SR6 Cyber Torso Question/Calrification
Post by: Xenon on <08-03-20/1715:53>
Confused on Str adding to unarmed dmg. Feels more like an editing error for an example than an intentional mapping of cyber arms dmg code to str of arm.
(The above rules are from 5th edition since a 'strict reading of the rules' doesn't really apply anymore)



then adding STR/AGI is useless for torsos and skulls. 
Bingo!

Yet we know it's only useless when added to a skull. 
In this edition yes, now when they explicitly mention that it is pointless in raising your attributes for your skull they indirectly state that there now is a point in raising your attributes for your torso... which is strange, because the only time when torso would be involved is when you use your whole body but when you use your whole body you don't get to use your increase attribute cyberlimb accessory anyway.


I think it would have been more clear if they either:

Just put the same phrase on torso that they put on skull. Then it would be clear that you should not raise your torso attributes once and for all.

Or:

Changed the whole body example and explicitly state that attribute ratings of torso would factor into the test rather than increase attribute not being used at all. Then it would be clear that you should raise your torso attributes once and for all.



I need to think more on what the text actually says and what the intent actually might be............ to be continued ;)
Title: Re: SR6 Cyber Torso Question/Calrification
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-03-20/1728:06>
Seems like the intent is pretty clear.

It only becomes muddled if one insists that cybertorsos are excluded from the rule governing how cyberlimbs work, on the basis that a key clause in the sentence uses "limb" instead of "cyberlimb".

Frankly if you don't do that, there's no confusion.

A key tenet in rules lawyering is that if you can read the rule one way where it doesn't work, but read it another way where it DOES work, you should just read it the way where it works.
Title: Re: SR6 Cyber Torso Question/Calrification
Post by: markelphoenix on <08-03-20/1735:03>
Confused on Str adding to unarmed dmg. Feels more like an editing error for an example than an intentional mapping of cyber arms dmg code to str of arm.
(The above rules are from 5th edition since a 'strict reading of the rules' doesn't really apply anymore)



then adding STR/AGI is useless for torsos and skulls. 
Bingo!

Yet we know it's only useless when added to a skull. 
In this edition yes, now when they explicitly mention that it is pointless in raising your attributes for your skull they indirectly state that there now is a point in raising your attributes for your torso... which is strange, because the only time when torso would be involved is when you use your whole body but when you use your whole body you don't get to use your increase attribute cyberlimb accessory anyway.


I think it would have been more clear if they either:

Just put the same phrase on torso that they put on skull. Then it would be clear that you should not raise your torso attributes once and for all.

Or:

Changed the whole body example and explicitly state that attribute ratings of torso would factor into the test rather than increase attribute not being used at all. Then it would be clear that you should raise your torso attributes once and for all.



I need to think more on what the text actually says and what the intent actually might be............ to be continued ;)

In regards to using 5e rules for (Str)P damage, posted right above showing how Hardening, an option for Cyberarms, explicitly invalidates carrinyg over the 5e interpretation.
Title: Re: SR6 Cyber Torso Question/Calrification
Post by: Xenon on <08-03-20/1800:59>
Seems like the intent is pretty clear.
As I said. That was the outcome with a "very strict reading of the text" as written in 5th edition (as a strict reading of the text used to be a thing in that edition).


If we leave 5th edition and focus on 6th edition instead.
In 6th edition Increase Strength and Increase Agility does not seem to have any effect on cyberskulls:

SR6 p. 290 Attribute Increase
Note that Strength and Agility increases have no effect when they are included in a cyberskull.


When using your whole body (where Increase Strength and Increase Agility on cybertorso would potentially be used) it seem as if Increase Strength and Increase Agility have no effect:

SR6 p. 290 Attribute Increase
If an activity could reasonably be interpreted to use the whole body in some way (e.g., sprinting, climbing, swimming), then the cyberlimb increase would not apply.



I read this as Increased Strength and Increase Agility are only useful on arms and legs in 6th edition.
(Unless you have any suggestion on a situation where torso would be used that does not at the same time include your whole body).
Title: Re: SR6 Cyber Torso Question/Calrification
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-03-20/1813:30>
I read this as Increased Strength and Increase Agility are only useful on arms and legs in 6th edition.
(Unless you have any suggestion on a situation where torso would be used that does not at the same time include your whole body).

GM Discretion is already explicitly invoked.  The torso can be involved while leaving out some combination of arms/legs whenever the GM says so.

If you're in a sniper's prone position, if I'm the GM I might say sure you only need use your primary arm's AGI stat for the attack test.  If you're standing and using a rifle, I'll probably insist you need to use the lower of the two arms, on the basis of rifles being "two handed weapons", even though the number of hands necessary isn't something recognized by the rules.

Now as I said there's a convention that's got inertia from 5e to go ahead and allow a melee/unarmed attack be resolved by a single limb.  6e doesn't include the language 5e did about "a leading limb" in an attack, so strictly speaking a close combat attack probably SHOULD factor in both legs, your core, AND both arms, since even knife fighting still involves using your free hand/arm for balance/misdirection.  But that'd probably be viewed as hostile/adversarial, and I personally wouldn't recommend it.

But using a 2 handed melee weapon? ok, you absolutely HAVE to be using both arms... it's prima facie.  No legs are considered due to convention.  However, I'd submit that if you're using both arms, you pretty much HAVE to also be using the core/torso.  The only time you'd be using both arms without using your core would be some niche cases like doing braced bicep curls or such.

So, in the realm of GM discretion... if you wanna katana-chop someone... I'd say you factor in both arms and the torso, but not the legs.  YMMV.  And that variance is baked in to the rule already.
Title: Re: SR6 Cyber Torso Question/Calrification
Post by: Xenon on <08-04-20/0233:11>
Yeah... I guess you are right.

So some tables will rule that you use torso with all unarmed combat. Other tables will rule you just use one arm or one leg.
Some tables will rule that you use torso and two arms with a all katana attacks. Other tables will rule you just use one arm.

...and because of a general lack of exact language or guiding examples in this edition as a whole I guess they are all within the realm of RAW. And we will also not really know the original RAI less the author choose to step in and explain his intention when writing the chapter.

Some parts got easier (no more discussion if a specific test use average or lowest value, no longer have to think about both customization and enhancement when buying the limb) while other parts got harder (the fact that you can now increase attribute and the only limit being that you have capacity and resources but that you in-game can only utilize augmented limit of +4 seem to be less than clear for a lot of people and it also seem to be tricky to get a clear answer when attributes of torso are included and when you instead just use attributes of limbs).