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[OOC] A Kriminal Affair

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Volker

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« on: <11-12-14/0535:17> »
This is the OOC thread for A Kriminal Affair (that is, group 2, GMed by Raven Runner and Volker).

Is there any convention about how and where dice results are displayed?

If I make any assumption about your character in the opening scene that don't fit (e.g. your character doesn't run in the morning), please just tell me!
« Last Edit: <11-12-14/0554:17> by Volker »
"normal speech"
whisper/"under your breath"
thought
"Matrix/email/..."
"sub-vocal"
"foreign language"

8-bit

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« Reply #1 on: <11-12-14/1112:00> »
Just so I am sure, Molly is calling Arachnos, right? She's not physically on his doorstep? Just don't want to pick up the phone only to have her walk in my door (although, you know, not a morning person, so that would be possible).

As for dice results, I prefer to have them all in the OOC thread. Considering that spoilers don't work for this thread (they got disabled a while back and never got reimplemented), it kind of breaks the flow of IC, in my opinion, if we have dice rolls there. I can do it, if everyone else wants to, but keeping them all in the OOC thread would be my preference.

Volker

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« Reply #2 on: <11-12-14/1115:09> »
She's calling, yep.

I'm fine with both.
"normal speech"
whisper/"under your breath"
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"Matrix/email/..."
"sub-vocal"
"foreign language"

Landmine

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« Reply #3 on: <11-12-14/1129:45> »
Speaking of which, Did you want us to roll for starting nuyen here?
"normal speech"  thought  "Matrix"   "Subvocal"  "Foreign Language"

Volker

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« Reply #4 on: <11-12-14/1259:18> »
Sure, go ahead!

@8-bit: Green is for matrix. I guess, you didn't email the good morning to Molly, did you? ;)
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« Reply #5 on: <11-12-14/1306:19> »
Sure, go ahead!

@8-bit: Green is for matrix. I guess, you didn't email the good morning to Molly, did you? ;)

Oh, thought we were using that for commcalls too. I'll edit it to normal speech.

Shrazkil

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« Reply #6 on: <11-12-14/1307:20> »
I will be a slow start, wasn't expecting to have game start so soon, I need to figure out how to change colors ( I see the option to as I type this just wanna get my sig set up for easy reverence), and get my finished sheet tonight to the GM's.

8-bit

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« Reply #7 on: <11-12-14/1313:50> »
I will be a slow start, wasn't expecting to have game start so soon, I need to figure out how to change colors ( I see the option to as I type this just wanna get my sig set up for easy reverence), and get my finished sheet tonight to the GM's.

The easiest way is to type [color="color you want"]Text here[/color]. You don't have to use quotation marks in the coding, that was just to make it easier to read.

Raven Runner

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« Reply #8 on: <11-12-14/1327:26> »
Welcome everyone!  As Volker is taking the lead on phase one I'll probably be hanging back and keeping of the IC thread...love reading it though!

Re: color...I wonder if it would be easier if every one just stuck with the color coding in their signature?  I'm finding it confusing when folks are typing using the colors for this game but their signature is is for a different game...and I wouldn't want folks to have to keep changing signatures.  For me, seeing what they wrote and having their signature right there to explain the colors is fine by me...and then every one can use what ever they want...but I totally understand if other folks (or you Volker) want to keep every one using the same colors...I will differ to group preference of course :)

Dice: I don't really care where they go...dice here does make the IC thread flow better...might also be weird though seeing what people are saying/doing in character and then having to switch to a different thread to see what they are rolling...again, what ever the group as a whole prefers is fine by me :)

Glad you're all here, and looking forward to an epic game!

Cheers, Raven

Poindexter

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« Reply #9 on: <11-12-14/1357:04> »
you can go ahead and edit that IC thread.

due to the attitude I'm getting from Volker, I'm gonna drop outta this one.

I sent him the character sheet, and i get back...

I'm not very happy with the lots of 1s and 6s in your build. This smells strongly like min-maxing. Might you explain in short words how you see that case?

Your lifestyle is low, yes? not squatter?

So i respond...

I gave him E in skills. picked three things for him to be good at, then used karma to buy him 1 in all the rest of the skills I thought he'd need to have, but not be a master of. E skills is a bitch, dude. I don't know what else to say. I'm not a min/maxxer.

Nope, squatter. Abandoned UPS truck is not low. Low has a front door with a landlord and shit.

and i get back...

Huh. Yeah, I believe that E in skill sucks, but then, it was your decision to go for E. So, you do see the point that this looks pretty strange, don't you? Spending the skill points in 6es and Karma in 1s is ... cost-efficient. I mean, if I buy some additional skills, I also buy the cheapest ones. I'm not stupid. But I do this once or twice in a build, and not 10 times. And I also buy 3s and 4s with my skill points. I won't force you into anything, but I'd really appreciate if your char's stats would become more, you know, realistic, natural, whatever.



But why? How are you defending your gear and all in a squatter? Sorry, if I take my role as a GM seriously I can't be okay with that. You have spent a fortune in things that can be stolen, or robbed. If you insist on squatter, I have to insist on throwing a lucky die to determine whether you are left in peace, robbed or geeked and robbed. My shaman has resources E (6000 nuyen, that REALLY sucks) and as a Dwarf he has +20 % lifestyle cost. I still gave him a low lifestyle, although I couldn't even afford a fake SIM!

so i respond...

Quote from: Poindexter
I don't know what to tell ya. I made the character the way it seemed to work out best for me. What would you prefer i spent the karma on?

A fortune in things?! Except for the extra ammo and the bike, he owns nothing he can't carry on his person all at the same time.

and i get back...

Umm, I don't really care on what you spend your character. I just point out that it is, let's say, very, very, very, very unlikely for any person, that there are exactly three things he mastered to a point close to perfection and a lots of things he has hardly heard about, but performs at a certain (poor) level. You have combat spell spellcasting at a level of friggin' 8 (!!) although you don't know more than a single spell? Cum on. Counterspelling also 6 with hardly any experience in magic, but Arcana and Assensing not a clue? How would a guy like Xem learn to use HEAVY WEAPONS? He's hardly able to point a gun at somebody. Summarized: You can leave him the way he is, but I'm a little bit unhappy (note: This is NOT a threat!!) because while I see that you are capable of some really awesome roleplaying (Your background story is amazing) I don't find this sense of a realistic yet awesome player character reflected by your stats. They look, to say it flat, constructed.

So, are you telling me that you run around with 4 TMPs and an AK everytime you got to a store and buy some milk? You sleep wearing your high-end armor jacket and your mask? Come on, dude.

I hope you're not pissed with me.

so i respond...

I knew there were two or three things i wanted him to be really good at, and a bunch of things i just wanted to have passing knowledge of. This was the only way i could think of to work it. I dumped a bunch of my starting karma into it to make it work out and i dont see how thats any cheesier than making up missing money with karma. Whatever you throw your E into, you end up making up the difference with karma. This is how characters get made. I don't see what the fuss is about? Not to mention, if you look at final dice pools, the difference is only 2-3 dice between some of the 6 skills and the 1 skills, due to fluctuating ability scores. Trust me, if i wanted to min/max this guy, i wouldnt have made a lightly armored melee fighter with a crap weapon and a low strength. Do you realize how many hits I need to even come close to damaging someone in a standard armor jacket?

IC wise, he spent a LOT of time, practicing, learning how to kill Sleeg when the time was right. Xems main strength is his dedication, willpower, and strength of purpose. When he sets his mind to mastering a thing, he does so. The guns, the sneaking, the computers, those are just things he needed to know the basic level of to get by, not worth focusing attention on. The heavy weapon skill is simply cause he knows that the guy with the grenade launcher doesn't "look like a mage" and he knows how hit squads think. "Geek the mage" is not just a thing people say OOC, y'know?

and i get back...

*sigh* fine by me

then there's...

A commlink, 4 pistols, rifle, a jacket, and a mask.

No, I don't carry everything (which aint much considering everything but the rifle fits in pockets in the jacket) with me all the time, nor do i sleep strapped to the gills with guns, but i DO have the good sense to hide my things when I leave them at home. If i get robbed, i get robbed, it's part of the world. I've only really got about 3-5k in gear sitting around the house if they get the rifle, and maybe 1-2k if they don't. Keep in mind, the squatter lifestyle IS a step up from street and you DO pay some "rent" on it, which obviously isn't really rent as one doesn't have a landlord at that level, but we assume that money gets used on general maintenance and a basic, if crude level of security. It ain't much, but it's something. . Anyone can get robbed, its just less likely the higher up you go on the ladder. Now all that being said, If a GM wants to rob me cause of a totally legal to purchase lifestyle before the game really gets going, then thats his business.

and his response right HERE is the reason I'm out.


Now, come on, don't get upset. You know it's fishy, don't you? You can't tell me, that if you're GM, and one of your char sleeps in a "van under and old overpass" with nice weapons and gear, that you would be totally ok with that? Seriously? Why should anyone invest in lifestyle if it doesn't matter anyway?

And I fucking don't "want to rob you", goddammit. If you accuse me of stuff like that every again you and I will have a problem, chummer. I'm GMing for more than 15 years, and never have I ever heard from a single soul that I treated anyone ever unfair (okay, save for one time when a player was not content with her karma reward). What Xem does is "legal" but very risky, not to say outright stupid and you goddamn know that. So please stop fucking around on a personal level ("But your Dwarf has no SIN." "You want to rob me although my build is according to the rules") and remain objective in that regard. You can't tell me, that you spent B on resources and can't afford a Low lifestyle.

Ok, buddy.

A- no one is upset. I am not trying to pull anything over on you and the multiple insinuations that I am is offensive.
B- You are the one who brought up having xem get his place robbed, then you freak out when i repeat it? whats your problem?
C- Aint no need for internet threats up in here. Grow up with your "We WILL have a problem, chummer." bullshit, huh?
D- Maybe i been GMing since yesterday and maybe I been GMing since the fuckin purple d and d box came out, but that aint relevant to this discussion.
E- I never said lifestyle didn't matter. Stop putting words in my mouth.
F- I never said Xem couldnt afford a higher lifestyle, but with the way i envisioned the character, that's the lifestyle he had. I'm sorry you have such a problem with it, and with your authority being challenged in any way.
G- Thank you for showing me your true colors before I got too invested in this game.
H- Mentioning that your SINless dwarf would have trouble renting an apartment is not "fucking around on a personal level".
« Last Edit: <11-12-14/1511:53> by Poindexter »
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Raven Runner

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« Reply #10 on: <11-12-14/1541:24> »
As I said on the other thread..

"Well, clearly things aren't going as well as could be hoped for...

Checking with the other group and seeing if any of them want to come over here makes sense...also, if none of them do, I know there are folks who have expressed interest in joining.

Also, to every one involved in this game, if there are any concerns or conflicts between any one in the future I'd like to know about it.  PMs mean that a lot can go on behind the scenes, and that's fine, but I don't like GMing a game where there are any serious disagreements going on and I (as one the the GMs) have no idea about it.

Lets keep this reasonable and in the open, thanks every one!

Cheers, Raven"

Poindexter

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« Reply #11 on: <11-12-14/1723:52> »
As I said on the other thread..

"Well, clearly things aren't going as well as could be hoped for...

Checking with the other group and seeing if any of them want to come over here makes sense...also, if none of them do, I know there are folks who have expressed interest in joining.

Also, to every one involved in this game, if there are any concerns or conflicts between any one in the future I'd like to know about it.  PMs mean that a lot can go on behind the scenes, and that's fine, but I don't like GMing a game where there are any serious disagreements going on and I (as one the the GMs) have no idea about it.

Lets keep this reasonable and in the open, thanks every one!

Cheers, Raven"

It wasn't the disagreement i had a problem with.

It was the multiple accusations of "min/maxxing" and then the threat really put the cherry on top.
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Volker

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« Reply #12 on: <11-12-14/2212:15> »
Hello, everybody.

@Poindexter:
I'm sorry that you're leaving and I'm also sorry I created hard feelings (as I also expressed e.g. in "I hope you're not pissed with me."). But I'm not sorry about what I wrote because this is still my opinion. If you use the skill points (which are equally expensive no matter which level you take) only for 5es and 6es and Karma (which is quite cheap at lvl 1) only for 1s, this is cost-efficient. If you, however, use ALL you skill points on 5es and 6es and buy 14 (in words: fourteen) skills on lvl 1 with karma, there is reason to ask you on your view about this, because it does smell like min-maxing. I did never say you were min-maxing, I asked your opinion and I said, I was unhappy about the unrealistic build but still fine with you to go for it. And RR and I were very specific about this being focussed on good roleplay rather than good stats.
I also uttered a similar opinion regarding another player's build (although it was by far less extreme) and nobody got emotional.

I am also quite positive that it is nothing a GM should not do to point out that it is really dangerous to live in a broken-down van when you carry stuff worth thousands of nuyen with you - tens of thousands if anyone realizes what your sword really is. This is not "wanting to rob you" anymore than letting the guards shoot at you during the run is "wanting to kill you".

And this is way I gut quite upset about your insinuation. I'm doing my job here, and if your char lives in a deliberately chosen dangerous situation, I have to make you aware of it and roll a lucky die whether you got away with it or not in case you stay in the danger zone. Raven Runner and I spent a whole lot of time and effort in this stuff and we still do. We try to create an exciting environment in which we all can have fun. I estimate things as good as I can, but if I have come to a decision, while I’m ready to discuss it in case I missed something (I make many mistakes and admit it), I also must ask players to accept a GM’s decision at some point.
That said: yes, I’m showing my „true colors“ any time: I try to be as fair as I can, I would never seriously harm any character unharmed, but I can also be strict if need be. The world our runners live in is not a pink feel-fine-zone. I think I always wrote in a respectful way (until, that is, when instead of logical arguments came a personal attack) and I always will.

So, to shortly answer your questions/statements before we can close that file.
Quote from: “Poindexter“
A- no one is upset. I am not trying to pull anything over on you and the multiple insinuations that I am is offensive.
B- You are the one who brought up having xem get his place robbed, then you freak out when i repeat it? whats your problem?
C- Aint no need for internet threats up in here. Grow up with your "We WILL have a problem, chummer." bullshit, huh?
D- Maybe i been GMing since yesterday and maybe I been GMing since the fuckin purple d and d box came out, but that aint relevant to this discussion.
E- I never said lifestyle didn't matter. Stop putting words in my mouth.
F- I never said Xem couldnt afford a higher lifestyle, but with the way i envisioned the character, that's the lifestyle he had. I'm sorry you have such a problem with it, and with your authority being challenged in any way.
G- Thank you for showing me your true colors before I got too invested in this game.
H- Mentioning that your SINless dwarf would have trouble renting an apartment is not "fucking around on a personal level".

A: You never explained me, however, how optimizing your stats in a unrealistic way does not fall under the catergory min-maxing.
B: I said, I will have to roll a lucky die to see whether your place gets robbed or not. This is no more „a GM wanting to rob you because of a legal build“ than some random critter on your way is „a GM wanting to kill you because of whatever“.
C: Until then, I never got personal. But there are limits to my patience and this is when I get offensed as a person. By the way, before the „we will get a problem“ statement there also was an if.
D: I was not posing with my experience as a GM, as you might remember, but pointed out that in more than 15 years everybody felt treated fair by me and that it might not only be entirely my fault if you feel pissed about me not wanting a B resources guy living a truck and feeling safely.
E: No, but you got furious when I explained you how lifestyle does matter in regards of security.
F: I have no problem with it. It’s you who has problem with the consequences of a squatter lifestyle. And please don’t argue about the risk of living almost unprotectedly with stuff worth a fortune for a starved group of gangers.
G: You’re welcome. I think it’s quite important to show who one is any time.
H: It is as it’s not in the least connected to our debate. And, by the way, my Dwarf is not SINless.

Okay, let’s get to happier business now.
Quote from: “Shrazkil“
I will be a slow start, wasn't expecting to have game start so soon, I need to figure out how to change colors ( I see the option to as I type this just wanna get my sig set up for easy reverence), and get my finished sheet tonight to the GM's.
No problem at all. To be honest, there’s still a lot o‘ things we have to sort out, but I thought, since the characters might want to chit-chat a bit before they get to business, we’d have plenty of time to do that even if we start now. And I was eager to play, as (as I think) most of you are ;)

Quote from: “Raven Runner“
Re: color...I wonder if it would be easier if every one just stuck with the color coding in their signature?  I'm finding it confusing when folks are typing using the colors for this game but their signature is is for a different game...and I wouldn't want folks to have to keep changing signatures.  For me, seeing what they wrote and having their signature right there to explain the colors is fine by me...and then every one can use what ever they want...but I totally understand if other folks (or you Volker) want to keep every one using the same colors...I will differ to group preference of course

I’m not sure if this will not get confusing, everybody using different colors. 8-bit and me are posting the color set in use in our signatures so you can look it up anytime. But I am also fine with everybody using different colors, if that’s easier for you.
What do the others think?
(Uh, by the way, since Poindexter’s out of the game anyway, I would prefer the colors that are still in my signature again :) ).

Quote from: “Raven Runner“
Also, to every one involved in this game, if there are any concerns or conflicts between any one in the future I'd like to know about it.  PMs mean that a lot can go on behind the scenes, and that's fine, but I don't like GMing a game where there are any serious disagreements going on and I (as one the the GMs) have no idea about it.
This all developed real fast. I think, you were sleeping all or most of the time. In any case, you were not online in between, as Poindexter and me were online at the same time and PMs were buzzing around like busy bumblebees. But yes, I should have CCed to you every PM and will do so in future. It started as a minor remark and then spun out of control. Sorry for that, chummer.

[EDIT: SnowDragon asked if there was still place. We could ask him if he wants to jump in spontaneously. If you like the idea, go ahead. I would ask, but I don't want to pass over you again.]
« Last Edit: <11-12-14/2249:08> by Volker »
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"sub-vocal"
"foreign language"

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« Reply #13 on: <11-12-14/2228:14> »
My current color set is what Volker proposed in the initial setup thread; so just ignore my signature for this game (it's not going to change, since I have many other posts that I would then have to edit to match). Honestly, the colors don't matter to me, as long as we all can understand each other and how things are divided.

I'm enjoying this beginning RP, but I'm not sure if I'm zooming ahead at all. I am fairly active, so just post in OOC if you want me to slow down for a day or two, in case others are busy.

Poindexter

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« Reply #14 on: <11-12-14/2324:56> »
A: You never explained me, however, how optimizing your stats in a unrealistic way does not fall under the catergory min-maxing.
B: I said, I will have to roll a lucky die to see whether your place gets robbed or not. This is no more „a GM wanting to rob you because of a legal build“ than some random critter on your way is „a GM wanting to kill you because of whatever“.
C: Until then, I never got personal. But there are limits to my patience and this is when I get offensed as a person. By the way, before the „we will get a problem“ statement there also was an if.
D: I was not posing with my experience as a GM, as you might remember, but pointed out that in more than 15 years everybody felt treated fair by me and that it might not only be entirely my fault if you feel pissed about me not wanting a B resources guy living a truck and feeling safely.
E: No, but you got furious when I explained you how lifestyle does matter in regards of security.
F: I have no problem with it. It’s you who has problem with the consequences of a squatter lifestyle. And please don’t argue about the risk of living almost unprotectedly with stuff worth a fortune for a starved group of gangers.
G: You’re welcome. I think it’s quite important to show who one is any time.
H: It is as it’s not in the least connected to our debate. And, by the way, my Dwarf is not SINless.

A- I explained it three times and quoted it above. You chose to disregard and continue with your insinuations, which by your own words were "extreme".
B- I'm not here to argue symantics. You brought up the possibility of robbery then got heated when i addressed it. grow up.
C- I never got personal at ALL. You keep telling me I'm mad, but you keep admitting you're the one who caught feelings here. Again, grow up.
D- Whatever
E- Furious? really? And just how were you able to ascertain this? Most of us have no way of knowing the emotional state of another over the internet, unless told (as you've told us). I'm chillin, dude. I think you're projecting your emotions on to others. Again, grow up.
F- I have no problems with squatter lifestyle. i was the one who explained to you that its all good and shit happens sometimes. I even mitigated possible losses. You overestimate the value of a few low end guns. Do the math. We're talking about less than 6k here.
G- yeah
H- The point was that you accuse me of taking it to a personal level when I never did any such thing. This bares to the discussion at hand in that it is yet another thing you accuse me of that is untrue.


I know what happened here dude.
From the first time you saw an addiction to Jazz on the sheet and thought i was talking about the music, cause you in your infinite wisdom couldnt be bothered to glance at the "drugs" section of the book, you thought I was trying to "pull something over on you" and no matter what I said to you, your assumption, accusatory tone, and overall dismissive and disrespectful attitude never toned down. In fact, they got worse the more I tried to explain my position.

There's no need to behave the way you've been doing. You need to work on that. Get mad if you want. I don't mind.

Good day sir.
« Last Edit: <11-12-14/2326:30> by Poindexter »
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