[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Okay, so here's the thing: I like ultrasound.  I like the idea of Improved Sense: Ultrasound.  But it would be a game breaker if you got it for 0.25 power points.  So then you try to build it, with Improved Sense (High-Frequency Hearing) and Voice Control, for 0.75 PP - but the kicker is that Voice Control specifically doesn't allow for ultrasound, thus:

You can mask your voice and imitate sounds within the normal range of metahuman vocalization (no infrasound or ultrasound) and mimic the voices of others.

(Bolding mine.)

Darn!

But wait!!  Street Grimoire came out with several 'advanced powers' - powers which require the adept to first possess other powers.  The standard Kinesics, followed by Kinesics Mastery, is a good example of this.  So let's do the same - why not 'Ultrasound Projection', or even just 'Vocal Mastery', which enables the adept to create sounds outside the normal range of metahuman vocalization, i.e. infrasound and ultrasound?  If you follow the pricing of that specific example, then 'Vocal Mastery' would cost 1 point - tough for the ordinary adept, but for someone dedicated (and following a Path), they might get a cost break on it. No matter which, though, if you allow the adept 'Vocal Mastery', then you have 0.25 (Improved Sense: High-Frequency Hearing) + 0.5 (minimum 1 level of Voice Control) + 1 (Vocal Mastery) = 1.75 points for Ultrasound.

... sounds reasonable to me.

[Xenon]

Remember that you are also blind while using Ultrasound Sensor.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

For the gizmo and for the cyberware, sure.  When it comes to an adept power, though, since it's a hearing / vocal enhancement, I wouldn't make them blind.

IMO, adepts are meant to be superhuman - able to outrace trains, leap (off) tall buildings, see in the dark, all that kind of thing.  For the cyberware, they haven't figured out how to combine the 'sonic bitmap' into a standard vision - so it currently replaces it.  This, IMO, is crappy, and it might be something I ignore in my game - but if you have both running, then you CAN be flashed / glared, etc.  (The immunity to glare and such is because you're no longer seeing with light, but getting ONLY the sound overlay instead.  You can do both, but then you might take penalties due to sudden flares as your eyes/mind has to adjust.)

[Xenon]

For the gizmo and for the cyberware, sure.  When it comes to an adept power, though, since it's a hearing / vocal enhancement, I wouldn't make them blind.

The gizmo version doesn't, but the cyberwear version do.
The improved sense provide the same enhancement (with its pros and cons) as the cyberwear version.

...but if you have both running, then you CAN be flashed / glared, etc.  (The immunity to glare and such is because you're no longer seeing with light, but getting ONLY the sound overlay instead.  You can do both, but then you might take penalties due to sudden flares as your eyes/mind has to adjust.)

Are you arguing that this is RAW?

[Xenon]

Being blind while using the power is also a great way to balance  the fact it only cost 0.25 power points....

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Since there IS no adept power of Improved Sense (Ultrasound), it obviously cannot.  The enhancement that I've suggested, however, would have a very similar effect as the cyberware (no hiding w/in 50m, etc.) but accomplish it completely by way of another sense, hearing, as well as vocal control - a bat's echolocation doesn't mean the bat is blind, only that it using hearing to get a very detailed mental image of its surroundings.  That it's primarily using a different sense, i.e. its projection and its hearing, to guide itself, is part and parcel of it - but it still doesn't mean that it can't see light.

As for the rest, Xenon, don't get pugnacious at the drop of a hat.  Also, don't cut out the very critical part of my statement - specifically about being something that I may ignore in my game.  Did I SAY that I was arguing that that's how the rules are written?

No.

So stop trying to start a fight.

I may happen to be theorizing that that's the reason (and reasoning) behind the effect, but obviously that isn't the way the rules are written - because, y'know, RAW in this case doesn't get into an intricate technical explanation of the design and design philosophy of a gadget that doesn't actually exist.  If you want to debate the in-universe reason for your ocular nerve (real or artificial) being overriden, feel free - but don't get frickin' "Are you arguing that this is RAW?" on me.

[Xenon]

A house rule then.
I have no issue with that.
If you were offended by my question, then i apologize.




As for RAW.
The Improved Senses power allow you to take any sense enhancement provided by cyberware of bioware as long as the enhancement does not give you a bonus dice to Perception Tests or needs wireless to work.

Improved Senses (Ultrasound Sensor) for 0.25 power points is therefor a valid variant; but since the cyberware version of Ultrasound Sensors make you blind while you use it I fail to see why the adept power would not as well.




What I am saying is that if you house rule that Improved Senses (Ultrasound Sensor) only give you the positive sides of the cyberware version (and not the negative sides) then you might want to also house rule a higher power point cost (as compensation).

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Uh, no.  No, we pretty thoroughly disproved that 'Improved Senses (Ultrasound Sensor)' is a viable example, because you have no ultrasound emitter.  'Improved Senses (High-Frequency Hearing)' would be the improved sense to let you hear / detect ultrasound pulses, but just like there's no adept ability - especially not an Improved Sense! - that makes you shoot beams of light out of your eyes so that you can see better in the dark, there's no adept ability to allow you to emit ultrasound pulses.

I DID give a suggestion as to how you could have a functional Ultrasound sense, but you appear to be ignoring that.  'Improved Sense (Ultrasound Sense)' is, so far, only your own house rule.

[Xenon]

1) Ultrasound Sensor come in a cyberware version
(...that provide a "sense" similar to what bats use to locate bugs during nighttime).
2) It give no bonus to Perception Tests.
3) It does not require Wireless On.

SR5 p. 310 Improved Sense
Any sense enhancement provided by cyberware or bioware can be provided by this power, unless that enhancement either gives you bonus dice to Perception Tests or needs wireless to work (or both).

...you have no ultrasound emitter...

So, would you consider it to be a viable Improved Sense Power as long as you bring an active ultrasound emitter...?

[Namikaze]

I would allow it to work so long as the adept has both Improved Sense: High Frequency hearing (ultrasound, whatever term you want to use) and Voice Control.  Otherwise, it would be a purely passive ability.

[Tarislar]

I found this months ago but didn't find another debate thread to post it in till just now.

But, Ultra Sound is an option per Street Grimoire as I'm reading it.

Pg. 108

[SENSE] CRYPTESTHESIA
(PASSIVE, DIRECTIONAL)
Type: M Range: T
Duration: S Drain: F – 3
Sense Cryptesthesia (“paranormal perception”) is
an advanced form of Clairvoyance (p. 286, SR5) and
Clairaudience (p. 286, SR5). Each Cryptesthesia spell allows
the subject to utilize a different augmented sense
such as low-light vision, thermographic vision, enhanced
smell, or ultrasound at a chosen point within the
spell’s range. These senses mimic the effects of headware
cybernetic enhancements (p.451, SR5). The subject
need not possess the sense to utilize it while the spell is
powered. However, each sense requires a different spell
(for example, Sonar Cryptesthesia or Enhanced Vision
Cryptesthesia).
Magicians cannot use senses granted by Cryptesthesia
to target others with spells. The
caster must touch
the subject to trigger the spell.

To me that can be read as Magic has the ability to mimic Ultrasound and labels it as an Augmented Sense & even goes on to mention Headware senses & a version called Sonar sense.

Whether or not you agree, there is one more piece to add to the debate.

Me, I say let it exist as a Vision Enhancement as Beaumis suggested for targeting inside 50m and skip the sensor rating parts since there is no way to label it as a "Rating" really.

I'd also make it have to be turned on/off since when its on you'd see things in "Daredevil Vision" w/o the fun of stuff like Colors or anything that isn't moving.  Useful for shooting in the dark at close range. 

[ZeConster]

1) Ultrasound Sensor come in a cyberware version
(...that provide a "sense" similar to what bats use to locate bugs during nighttime).
2) It give no bonus to Perception Tests.
3) It does not require Wireless On.

SR5 p. 310 Improved Sense
Any sense enhancement provided by cyberware or bioware can be provided by this power, unless that enhancement either gives you bonus dice to Perception Tests or needs wireless to work (or both).

A sense enhancement isn't the same as a sense, though.

[Xenon]

A sense enhancement isn't the same as a sense, though.

Fair enough.

That would mean Improved Sense only enhance our existing five basic senses (smell, feel, vision, hearing, taste).
....and does not give us access to "new" senses; like Dare Devil's "sonar sense".

[Mirikon]

Also, spells and adept powers are on a completely different scale, especially when talking about passive adept powers. A spell requires a mage to resist drain every time he uses it, and he takes sustaining penalties (or otherwise invests in something to negate those penalties) while it is active. None of that applies to an adept's passive powers.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Thing is, Namikaze, Voice Control states it can't emit things outside human possibility, giving as specific examples both ultrasonic and infrasonic emitting, as I quoted above.

Xenon, since Improved Sense (High-Frequency Hearing) is already an adept ability, when you get down to it you need to be able to do two things:

• Be able to emit a unique ultrasonic pattern, for the echoes of which you are specifically listening via IS (High-Freq Hear).
• Be able to translate that echo-pattern - which is going to come in at different times - into an accurate three-dimensional image of your surroundings.

For all its many faults, IMO the Ben Affleck Daredevil movie did the imagery for Daredevil's super-hearing really well, and it's what I think of when I imagine ultrasonic senses.  In SR, you would specifically need additional abilities/powers to do the two above abilities.  Since Vocal Control specifically states it can't do ultrasonic, you need 'Advance Vocal Control', 'Vocal Mastery', or whatever.  If you want to price that at 0.5 PP, that'd be cool, but the Kinesics / Kinesics Mastery pattern suggests you need to spend a bit more on the 'Mastery' version.  Berserk and Berserker's Rage have equal costs, with the former a prereq for the latter; Elemental Body (1 PP) needs Elemental Strike (0.5 PP), which in turn needs Killing Hands (0.5 PP).

What is missing, of course, is item #2 above - being able to interpret those echoes.  I don't think of that as a gimmie ... but 0.25 points might do it, or simply having Motion Sense might.  In fact, having a straight enhancement to Motion Sense - Extended Motion Sense - might simply do the trick, with Motion Sense a prerequisite.  Extended might turn the range from (Magic) meters to (Magic x 10) meters, and itself cost 1 PP, turning the set into a total of 1.5 PP.

... hm.  No. No, this is what I'd use:

Zone SenseCost: 1.0 PP
Prerequisites: Blind Fighting, Motion Sense, Improved Sense (Any Two Hearing) OR Combat Sense OR Enhanced Perception
          Improving upon its prerequisites, Zone Sense enables an adept to perceive and interact (such as in combat) with all objects and creatures within (Magic) x 10 meters.  This ability builds upon the combination of natural and magical senses used by Motion Sense as well as the sensory improvements found in the Improved Senses, Combat Sense, and/or Enhanced Perception abilities to extend and perfect the adept's ability to perceive their surroundings.  Similar in function to ultrasound sensors, this ability negates all light/glare and visibility penalties, as well as any accrued for being visually blinded (e.g. -6 for Blind Fire, or -8 for Blinded).  This latter, note, does not apply if the target is unable to be seen due to being behind an object.  Like ultrasound, it is stopped by physical barriers between the adept and objects, including but not limited to walls, windows, and the like; one cannot see through walls with this power.
          The non-ocular focus used by this ability causes the adept to close their eyes, as they are making senses besides sight their primary; the eyes, therefore, can be a distraction, so why not close them?  An adept who wishes to keep their eyes open and remain aware of their surroundings may do so with a -8 penalty to all visual-based Perception tests; this may be overcome with a Willpower + Intuition [Mental] test, reducing the penalty by 2 per hit.  (More than 4 hits do not give a bonus.)
          Zone Sense improves upon, and its advantages therefore functionally replace, those granted by the adept power Blind Fighting as well as the martial technique Strike the Darkness.

With Blind Fighting (0.5 PP), Motion Sense (0.5 PP), and 0.5 PP worth of other non-exclusively-visual sense enhancements required, the total cost for this is 2.5 PP - and in order to not take a pretty big hit to your visual perception, you need to make a pretty tough Mental test.