Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: LonePaladin on <04-13-11/1254:16>

Title: Acquiring Gear
Post by: LonePaladin on <04-13-11/1254:16>
I've found an area where the rules show some signs of breakage.

Here are the relevant rules for acquiring hard-to-find gear in play:

Let's run with your typical fixer (Negotiation 5, Charisma 5, Connection 4), and no other modifiers. For simplicity, I'm going to assume that the numbers are actually rolled, using the "minus 1 die per interval" option -- because, simply put, sometimes an item just can't be found. I'll also be buying automatic hits. This means the number of hits the fixer will accumulate will be 3-6-9-11-13-15-17-18-19-20-21.


Now for specific items:
So far, no big surprises, that's how the numbers play out. But there are scenarios where the acquisition rules start to show cracks.


First is a call for getting something in bulk -- this especially applies to ammunition, but can also run into things like grenades, pharmaceuticals, and pretty much anything where you can't have just one. Ammo is a particularly thorny case, because it's priced in small groups already.


In this case, where you're looking around for, say, 100 rounds of regular ammo, which numbers do you go by? If you go by the base price for a single unit, then you're looking at an interval of 12 hours, but if you take it as a bulk purchase, it becomes 1 day. If you take the bulk as a single item, it will be faster to find 50 rounds (the total price is 100¥, with a 12-hour interval) than it would be to find 60 (which would make the price 120¥, and double the interval).


If modifiers are applied to the base price -- things like used gear, or a flooded market -- do you use the modified price for determining the interval? Is the contact's "finder's fee" affected by these modifiers as well?


I'm really starting to miss the equipment rules from prior editions, where they explicitly spelled out the acquisition time per item, as well as giving a modifier for acquiring it through "normal" means (because there were some items that you could actually get cheaper though the shadow markets). I'd consider digging through the SR3 books and retconning these items, but there are things that have been added since then (like commlinks).


Maybe basing the acquisition time on an item's Availability, rather than the price, might fix this a little. I think it's odd that something with a high price, but low Availability can take longer than a cheap item with a high Availability.


F'rinstance: a basic cyberlimb costs 15,000¥, Availability 4. Our fixer can get it in two tests, one if he actually rolls the dice -- but each check takes a week. By contrast, a package of APDS rounds -- just ten of them -- would only cost 70¥, making the interval half a day. The 16 Availability, though, means that the fixer would need 7 tests, but this only works out to 3.5 days.


See what I'm getting at?
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: dashifen on <04-13-11/1408:26>
I usually only use those rules if you're not purchasing something that's legal through legal channels.  Usually, I figured anything with an availability of 8 or lower that's either legal or restricted a person with a fake ID or a legitimate SIN can purchase without having to roll unless it's being modified.  That cyberarm at availability 4 is completely legal. Just stop into your local chop shop and buy one.  For my tables, the SIN check is 1/2 the availability (round up) and there's a +2 for anything purchased that could in any way be used to harm or kill someone. 
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: Chance359 on <04-13-11/1651:45>
We ran into a similar problem with Missions.  It got to the point we'd just send one of the tables faces out to gear hunt, just because they had such a better dice pool. 

I would also like the see a revised version of previous editions avail codes. 
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: Bradd on <04-13-11/1717:57>
For simplicity, I'm going to assume that the numbers are actually rolled, using the "minus 1 die per interval" option -- because, simply put, sometimes an item just can't be found.

As an aside, I started out using that option and then quickly ditched it. An average character (dice pool 6) can only reach 7 hits on average using this method, and that's before accounting for glitches and critical glitches. That's barely enough to finish an Easy (6) test, and nowhere near enough to finish an Average (12) test. Surely an average character should usually finish an Average test?

With the decreasing dice option, you need about 6 dice to finish an Easy task, 8 dice to finish an Average task, 10 dice to finish a Hard task, and 12+ dice to finish an Extreme task. That's not too unreasonable at the high end, but it's way too hard at the low end. Also, note that a character with 3 dice cannot finish even an Easy task without rolling 100% hits or spending edge. Or to put it another way, if you're defaulting on a skill, it's practically impossible to finish even Easy extended tasks. That seems excessive to me.

Keep in mind that even the standard rules allow for the possibility of failure on extended tests; see p. 65, "Extended Tests and Glitches."
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: Damien Granz on <04-13-11/1955:05>
You should probably only be rolling if there's some good suspense to be had in wondering if a character can find something and how fast, otherwise you're wasting everyone's time rolling dice.

If it's non-restricted, non-forbidden, and under availability 12 and the character's not bleeding to death waiting for the item, then chances are just assign a markup % you think is fair and let them spend the nuyen, otherwise you're doing a lot of paperwork for something that is essentially a forgone conclusion.

Pretty much the similar rationale behind the 'Take 20' rule in D&D.
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: LonePaladin on <04-13-11/2124:47>
Didn't meant to imply that I always use the descending-dice-pool rule for getting things, it was just used for the examples.
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: CanRay on <04-13-11/2151:47>
So, what's the availability of Lesbian Elf Stripper Ninjas?
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: Damien Granz on <04-14-11/0003:01>
So, what's the availability of Lesbian Elf Stripper Ninjas?

Considering that's about what half the population of elves are, I think it'd be rather high.
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: Charybdis on <04-14-11/0230:36>
So, what's the availability of Lesbian Elf Stripper Ninjas?

Considering that's about what half the population of elves are, I think it'd be rather high.
Campaign dependent...

However they'd be bloody easy to find in the Body-puppet industry.
Examples below :)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vwnEIDSB02k/TYY1AvYKrCI/AAAAAAAAAyI/fN2d_ootFtk/s1600/Elven_Raider_by_cylithera.jpg)
(http://markzug.com/picture/elfcovertop.jpg?pictureId=2832443&asGalleryImage=true)
(http://philgamer.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/1270104031040.jpg)

Now, these are the only ones I could post from work. Other easily searchable links are definitely NSFW :P
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: LonePaladin on <04-14-11/0237:27>
Okay, okay. Rather than just pule about how the shopping rules are hinky, how about I propose a variant?

Here's the idea: the specifics on the Extended Test to acquire an item, legally or not, depends primarily on the item's Availability. The base price of the item is not a factor in this, as Availability is supposed to represent how difficult the item is to find. The Availability is the threshold of the test, and also sets the interval:

AvailabilityInterval
01 minute
1-310 minutes
4-630 minutes
7-101 hour
11-141 day
15-201 week
21+1 month

These assume that an appropriate seller is located; even buying a box of regular ammo at Weapons World may take a couple minutes of browsing. Fixers, arms dealers, and other contacts who regularly sell items will typically have a selection of common items on-hand, but it may take them a little time to fish them out of storage.

Glitches on the Availability test simply cause a delay; if the character is attempting to buy an item legally, the ID they are using might fall under scrutiny. A critical glitch means that the item is unavailable at that location -- the character will have to find another seller. This could also result in additional complications, such as a Lone Star raid on a gun-running operation, or a double-cross by the seller.

An item's Legality will not generally affect acquiring an item through the black market. Fixers, drug-runners, and arms dealers don't care if an item's illegal. If the character is attempting to get an item through a contact that is within the contact's reach for personal use, but would be risky and/or illegal to distribute, then the request counts as a Favor. For Restricted items, it would count as a Low Risk (2) Favor; Forbidden items are considered Moderate Risk (4).

Wallace is looking for some wheels, and asks his Lone Star patrolman contact if he can get a cruiser that is being decomissioned. A Chrysler-Nissan Patrol-1 has an Availability of 12R, reduced to 10R because it's used. The patrolman can probably pull a few strings back at HQ to get one pulled off the lot when it's being replaced, but get it before all the specialized equipment can be removed. Doing so might raise a few eyebrows, though, so this counts as a low-risk favor.

There are ways to get an item faster; if the character is willing to increase the base price of the item, every 25% increase reduces the item's effective Availability by 1 (to a maximum reduction of 10). This extra spending does not grant additional dice to the Availability Test. The cost increase is calculated after accounting for the Street Cost modifiers (SR4A, p. 312).

In addition, the modifiers to an item's Street Cost will affect the Availability. These modifiers are in addition to the cost modifiers.

SituationAvailability
Counterfeit/knock-off–1
Stolen–1
Used–2
Used in a crime under investigation–1
Market Flooded–3
Distribution channels monopolized+1
Law-enforcement crackdown+4
Market dry+2

In most cases, the Availability is not affected by the quantity being sought; if you can find one fragmentation grenade, you can probably find twenty.
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: Kontact on <04-14-11/0318:20>
Arms dealers actually care a good deal whether they're dealing contraband or legal arms...
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: FastJack on <04-14-11/0749:46>
AvailabilityInterval
01 minute
1-310 minutes
4-630 minutes
7-101 hour
11-141 day
15-201 week
21+1 month
I don't know about this. I mean, an interval of 30 minutes? Is your fixer/contact Dominoes?

"Hey, I need a Colt America Pistol. I'm on the corner of 3rd and Main in a gun fight with Knight Errant. Do you guys deliver?"

Then again, I don't have any problems with the listed intervals in the SR4A, since it takes into account that getting the gear isn't just calling a contact, it's about tracking down who has it, who can get it, negotiating the price, setting up the meet, going to the meet, etc., etc. Intervals are the time for each test. If you have an availability of 22, it's going to take 6-7 dice rolls to get the 22 successes with an average DP, so on objects costing over 10,000¥, it'll be a few months.
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: FastJack on <04-14-11/0753:05>
So, what's the availability of Lesbian Elf Stripper Ninjas?

Considering that's about what half the population of elves are, I think it'd be rather high.
Campaign dependent...

However they'd be bloody easy to find in the Body-puppet industry.
Examples below :)

Now, these are the only ones I could post from work. Other easily searchable links are definitely NSFW :P
I'm totally using that second picture for the Knight Errant recruitment posters. ;)
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: Redwulfe on <04-14-11/1117:43>
To cut down on dice rolling, especially on gear that is normally available to characters at creation, I usually let them roll once and then divide the total threshold they need by the hits they received on the initial test. Multiply this by the interval an you get how long it takes them to get it.

If it is Availability of 12 with a 1 day interval and they get 3 hits, it would take 4 days to get the item.

Another way to do it is allow them to by auto hits for the first test for gear they normally could get.

For consumables I add 2 to the availability of the item for every extra dose or box.

Anything that is F, above 12 Avail, or Rating higher than 6, requires legwork and role play to acquire. Regular rules apply and I degrade the pool. I do allow character to add extra dice for contacts they know it is the sum of all contacts connection ratings they have divided by 10 round down. Basically it is there connection rating for the roll. Usually this means they get it through there fixer as he adds dice due to contacts.

If they have three contacts at connection 2, 1 at connect 3, and two at connection 4, then they would get 2 extra dice as their personal connection rating is 1.7 or 2.

Red
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: LonePaladin on <04-14-11/1217:33>
I don't know about this. I mean, an interval of 30 minutes? Is your fixer/contact Dominoes?[/quote]
Just spitballin' here, really. All I did was take the table on Extended Test intervals and make up some number ranges for it -- editing was expected. Then again, items that aren't particularly hard to come by shouldn't take long to negotiate over: getting a Colt Manhunter might be as simple as hunting around a swap meet for an hour or so, or doing a Matrix search for a seller.

The rules seem to assume that all shadowrunners know where they can reach gray and black markets, and that they can find items like this without having to use (and pay) contacts for the privilege. Anything that is legal should be available somewhere, which brings up some unusual situations.

"I want to buy a taser."
[rolls dice] "Okay, it'll take you 24 hours to find a seller."
"They're legal. I just want to go to Weapons World and grab one off the shelf."

I still have an issue with the time required being based strictly on the price; if the Availability is supposed to represent how difficult it is to find the item, it shouldn't matter if it costs 10¥ or 10,000¥. It also leaves open the question of how buying something in quantity is figured -- whether you use the base figure, or the total price of the bundle. I've already pointed out ways in which that can get weird.

Continue with the suggestions.
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: Redwulfe on <04-14-11/1328:57>
Yes but the interval and availability test is only applicable to black market purchases.

By the rules it seems that you can only purchase items that do not have an availability through legal channels and everything else must be purchased illegally, but I tend to use common since as a guide and allow even items that have an availability to be found in certain specialty outfitters like weapons world. you have to show ID and it is logged with the purchase but you can skip the availability test for allot of items just bey buying them in a store.

The interval being based on cost seems to make more since to me as a black marketeer wants to move product so he would have lower cost items that will move rather than higher priced items in stock. Doesn't mean he can't get what you want it just means it will take longer.

Red
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: FastJack on <04-14-11/1340:16>
But it's a combination of the two. The interval is how long it takes for each iteration of a test. The Availability is how many successes are needed.

If an object is 20,000¥, but has an availability of 5, then there aren't going to be many iterations of the Extended Test, meaning they will be able to get the item in a week or two. But if an item is 50¥, but has an availability of 32, then you're going to be spending a lot of time tracking down a seller and negotiating delivery and such (probably around 10 tests ≈ 12*10 hours = 120 hours = 5 days).
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: LonePaladin on <04-14-11/1346:32>
I just wish they hadn't linked the interval time to the price, it makes for some very unusual results. It doesn't make sense to me that an expensive item may be easy to find (but takes a long time), while something cheap can be extremely hard to locate (but you get it quickly).
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: CanRay on <04-14-11/1426:02>
Find owner of gear.  Beat up owner of gear.  You now have gear.  :P
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: Bradd on <04-14-11/1704:17>
@LonePaladin: It doesn't seem so strange to me. Expensive things do take longer to find, in my experience, because they are less common, fewer people are willing to part with them, fraud is a greater risk, quality is a bigger concern, and so on. Big-ticket purchases like vehicles and homes take a long time for research, background checking, financing, and so on. Things are a bit different when you're talking about gray and black markets, but the same basic concerns are there. Also, expensive things often simply aren't available: You can't get the thing until somebody dies or makes a new one.
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: John Shull on <04-15-11/0350:12>
Shadowrunning is actually the process where many procurement needs are met.  Fixer or Johnson want item X,  they look into the particulars in getting it, individuals are hired to bring it back (usually told just enough to get them to do it but not enough that they could barter a reasonable fee, you have to control those costs), and then item X is picked up in some insane scheme, and then delivered back to the original Johnson.  It has a very familiar ring to it.
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: Kontact on <04-15-11/1648:23>
don't know about this. I mean, an interval of 30 minutes? Is your fixer/contact Dominoes?

Uncle Enzo's armaments:  Bullets in 30 minutes or you can shoot the driver.

Since the interval includes things like the meet, I can understand expensive orders taking longer.  When you, or your contacts, are dealing in expensive transactions, it can take a long time to establish the sort of trust and such for the exchange to take place.

When it's legal and purchased legally, then you can have it right away.  It's just tied to your SIN, which presents other problems.
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: CanRay on <04-15-11/1855:56>
I don't know about this. I mean, an interval of 30 minutes? Is your fixer/contact Dominoes?
More likely that's the amount of time you go walking around the streets to find the skeevy-looking fellow in the trenchcoat with the Ford Americar that has a trunk full of weapons.  Or less skeevy if your contact is Little Jacob, and that's how long it takes to get from where you are to where he feels safe parking.
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: Charybdis on <04-19-11/0023:52>
don't know about this. I mean, an interval of 30 minutes? Is your fixer/contact Dominoes?

Uncle Enzo's armaments:  Bullets in 30 minutes or you can shoot the driver.

Since the interval includes things like the meet, I can understand expensive orders taking longer.  When you, or your contacts, are dealing in expensive transactions, it can take a long time to establish the sort of trust and such for the exchange to take place.

When it's legal and purchased legally, then you can have it right away.  It's just tied to your SIN, which presents other problems.
Hmph, last time I tried buying anything legal in a decent sized city it took me 30 minutes just to find a parking spot.

Note: I'm not mentioning what it took to buy anything illegal.....  ::)
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: CanRay on <04-19-11/0026:50>
It's even longer if you take a bus like I do.

Of course, illegal stuff might be quicker to find depending on what neighborhood you're in, and what caters to the area.  If you're in a place full of Neo-Hippies, I'm pretty sure Mary Jane won't be that hard to find.  :P  Or, so I've heard.  ;)
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: Charybdis on <04-19-11/0045:49>
It's even longer if you take a bus like I do.

Of course, illegal stuff might be quicker to find depending on what neighborhood you're in, and what caters to the area.  If you're in a place full of Neo-Hippies, I'm pretty sure Mary Jane won't be that hard to find.  :P  Or, so I've heard.  ;)
Of course :P

back to deliveries though, I did have a courier NPC contact who was good at that sort of stuff. Don't have the write-up, but it was along the lines of:

Quicksilver: Elven bike rigger
'Now, where did I put that package?'
'Sign here,..and here...and...oh screw it, you look like the guy'
When it absolutely, positively has to be there....don't send this guy.
However, if your only chance of success is sending a package through three layers of gang territory, through a corp firefight and past ghoul-infested waters, Quicksilver's probably your best bet.
With his tricked out stunt-bike and intimate knowledge on the dynamic nature of sprawl traffic, this elf guarantees* delivery to any part of Seattle within 30minutes of pickup. Record breaking package-runs include
~ a ride half-way up Renraku pyramid during the shutdown (several news-cam drones were destroyed by sentry-turrets trying to record this activity)
~ Dragging a full lone-star HTR squad (including a riotmaster and two squad cars) into a running firefight between the Yakuza and Mafia in the docklands

*Guarantees limited to Bike and rider. Packages may be lost in transit.

Ahh, fun times.
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: CanRay on <04-19-11/0102:06>
If you read any of my Fan Fiction, my protagonist Nas is also a good option.

What is it with Elven Deliverymen?
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: LonePaladin on <04-19-11/0107:58>
Quicksilver: Elven bike rigger
'Now, where did I put that package?'
'Sign here,..and here...and...oh screw it, you look like the guy'
When it absolutely, positively has to be there....don't send this guy.
I want my players to write up their contacts this way.
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: Charybdis on <04-19-11/0136:42>
Quicksilver: Elven bike rigger
'Now, where did I put that package?'
'Sign here,..and here...and...oh screw it, you look like the guy'
When it absolutely, positively has to be there....don't send this guy.
I want my players to write up their contacts this way.
It's the old format for contacts, and I think it was always awesome.

I've got a bundle of them lying around from 20'ish years of Shadowrunning. Really should get off my @ss and compile them into a readable document....

Many are still in old Word-Perfect/Works formats....ahh MS-DOS, how I miss thee.
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: LankyOgre on <04-19-11/2151:57>
Shadowrunning is actually the process where many procurement needs are met.  Fixer or Johnson want item X,  they look into the particulars in getting it, individuals are hired to bring it back (usually told just enough to get them to do it but not enough that they could barter a reasonable fee, you have to control those costs), and then item X is picked up in some insane scheme, and then delivered back to the original Johnson.  It has a very familiar ring to it.

You call your contact and arrange to purchase item X. Your contact calls a Johnson to arrange acquiring item X on a corp. raid. Johnson calls you to arrange shadowrun. Adventure idea?
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: LonePaladin on <04-19-11/2346:09>
 ::)

I can see how this plays out.

"Hi. We need a rigger-adapted Ares Roadmaster, with a drone rack and ruthenium skin." "Lemme look around, I'll get back to you."

3 days later: "I'm Mr. Johnson. We've got a vehicle, currently sitting in this S-K facility, that we'd like picked up this evening."

Runners steal the van, thinking it looks familiar. The next day: "Hey, I got the Roadmaster, found one tricked out just like you asked."
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: KarmaInferno on <04-20-11/0147:01>
Nah.

Johnson gets custom van order from rigger. Johnson places order officially, exactly what was specified.

Fixer sends runner on job to steal van and deliver it and it's cargo to Johnson.

Johnson collects on insurance for the van, and whatever is in the van. Johnson also makes additional personal profit by selling van to Fixer.

Fixer calls Runner back, saying, hey, this van just turned up...



-k
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: Dead Monky on <04-22-11/1835:50>
Everyone wins!
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: Angelone on <04-22-11/2205:11>
Maybe it's the alcohol talking, but I love all of you.
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: CanRay on <04-22-11/2207:56>
Everyone wins!
Except for the poor guy that's trying to keep the Motor Pool under budget.
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: Angelone on <04-22-11/2213:43>
Everyone who counts wins anyway.
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: Dead Monky on <04-24-11/0926:36>
Amen to that.
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: Morg on <04-26-11/0313:52>
I still like the Idea of hacking an auto factory setting an automated pick up and delivery service to move the item to a drop point and have your drone pick it up (unless it is said Road Master then just have it auto pilot to the drop point and Hack it) and remember to bring your Tag wiper and jammer
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: Dead Monky on <04-26-11/0941:16>
Have fun spending the next six hours going over every square centimeter of your new car with that tag eraser.
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: Morg on <04-26-11/0948:28>
But it was Free  ;D

There's a question are structural Tag erasers feasible I could see a Mob chop shop needing one just drive in and fry the little buggers

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: Dead Monky on <04-26-11/0957:38>
I can see it.  I imagine it would have to be pretty powerful and would probably have to be set up a special room that you drive the car into.  Otherwise you'd likely end up frying every RFID tag in the building.  Not that that's always a bad thing.  ;D
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: ARCimedes on <04-26-11/0959:38>
My initial thought was an EMP inside a Farraday cage. But then I realized it would be very difficult to design something to wipe all of the tags and leave all of the other electronics in the vehicle intacts. I am not sure it can be done en masse like that.
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: KarmaInferno on <04-26-11/1535:49>
There is in fact a "vehicle tag eraser" modification, that when activated wipes any tags entering or placed on the vehicle.

Arsenal page 146.



-k
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: Dead Monky on <04-26-11/1625:19>
*facepalm*
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: Morg on <04-26-11/1659:48>
.....
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: ARCimedes on <04-26-11/1711:34>
There is in fact a "vehicle tag eraser" modification, that when activated wipes any tags entering or placed on the vehicle.

Arsenal page 146.



-k

The problem with that is it does not effect tags already in the vehicle. It is basically a large cage that erases any tags near it and requires a major installation. Basically, it is not a time saver for erasing tags from stolen vehicles. However, it does indicate that suspending all electronics would protect them. So you should be able to make a small cage to drive the vehicles into, turn off the vehicles and fry the tags.

-ARCimedes
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: CanRay on <04-26-11/1824:51>
"It also make Dimitri dance funny because of Russian cybernetics!  Hey!  D!  Walk in cage again!"  "Is nyet funny!!!"  "He is kidder, we all love him, he loves us."  "I shoot in face next time happens!"
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: ARCimedes on <04-26-11/1848:33>
"It also make Dimitri dance funny because of Russian cybernetics!  Hey!  D!  Walk in cage again!"  "Is nyet funny!!!"  "He is kidder, we all love him, he loves us."  "I shoot in face next time happens!"

Yeah, but he is bringing back the St. Vitus dance craze...

-ARCimedes
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: Teyl_Iliar on <04-28-11/0236:05>
Find owner of gear.  Beat up owner of gear.  You now have gear.  :P

I love this, because it's probably the way my longest living PC has acquired at least 75% of the things she has. Also, Canray, everywhere I see you post on this forum you make me laugh.  ;D *whew* I agree with angelone. I love you guys.

Now then on to my opinionated topic rant for the week....

The rules seem to assume that all shadowrunners know where they can reach gray and black markets, and that they can find items like this without having to use (and pay) contacts for the privilege. Anything that is legal should be available somewhere, which brings up some unusual situations.

"I want to buy a taser."
[rolls dice] "Okay, it'll take you 24 hours to find a seller."
"They're legal. I just want to go to Weapons World and grab one off the shelf."

I still have an issue with the time required being based strictly on the price; if the Availability is supposed to represent how difficult it is to find the item, it shouldn't matter if it costs 10¥ or 10,000¥. It also leaves open the question of how buying something in quantity is figured -- whether you use the base figure, or the total price of the bundle. I've already pointed out ways in which that can get weird.

Continue with the suggestions.

I'm really Feeling you on this one LP.  These rules are very frustrating for me. Considering that the focus of the world structure shadow runner's live in is a huge buyer's market plastered with neon signs and AR overlays screaming BUY BUY BUY at you everyday, it shouldn't be that damn hard to find low (10-12 or below) availability/legal gear and just buy it. It shouldn't take a 6/6 fixer a week to find, procure, and sell something like ammo/guns(shotguns, pistols, hunting gear)/cyberware these things may be harder to get in certain areas but unless theres a market crack down anything that is available for sale to SINner's should be almost as easy if not easier for a fixer to get just off hand. Otherwise they aren't a useful contact. (IMO)

The only time a runner is generally spending their nuyen is when they need something, and they usually need those things on short notice. If a fixer can't find that something quickly and easily it would/should be a huge blow to their reputation, and their clients would find someone who could deliver quickly. I mean if you're asking someone for something like M-1 garand clips on short notice, yeah I'd expect a wait time considering they're over 130 years old. But if I'm looking for cyberware that any joe could walk into a clinic and pick out from an AR overlay and have installed that day and it takes my fixer more than a week to get it I'd be like WTF man?! considering the way it's made to seem how the shadow markets work and with the amount of things floating around in it, these things shouldn't be THAT HARD to get legal or otherwise. /rant

Am I the only one that feels this way? >:(
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: LonePaladin on <04-28-11/0332:43>
I'm with you, Teyl. I'd like to see a revival of the old rules regarding availability, time to acquire, and legality. I also miss the Street Index, which resulted in some things actually being cheaper on the black/gray markets -- by the RAW, runners don't have the option of using "Turnpike Clearance Sales", without the GM applying some fiat.
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: Teyl_Iliar on <04-28-11/0437:50>
I'm with you, Teyl. I'd like to see a revival of the old rules regarding availability, time to acquire, and legality. I also miss the Street Index, which resulted in some things actually being cheaper on the black/gray markets -- by the RAW, runners don't have the option of using "Turnpike Clearance Sales", without the GM applying some fiat.
We really are on the same page chummer. :D If you've got 400 stolen guns that need to go now, and you got them at a 5 finger discount, you tend to say screw market value, selling them for half price is still getting me more than I started with, and it'll help me when the yaks looking for those guns don't find them on me. While I admit that something like that doesn't happen every day, It does happen enough that a smart supplier would know where to go and get those things/point the runner's at the sale. (if they didn't want to get their hands dirty.) Same thing applies to drugs, cyberware, the list goes on.  But that never seems to happen in this system. It's almost like the shadow markets and the people inside them meet once and then forget everything that happened after that meeting and start all over again the next time; no lasting connections made. If I was a seriously connected fixer, I'd remember who I trusted to do business with and what they regularly sell as to cut the amount of time between getting it from their storage to my buyer's hands at a cost that makes it worth everyones while to buy from me. It just makes Fraking sense.
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: ngfanatic on <04-28-11/0749:53>
There are already rules for that:

p312 20th anniversary edition has a section on street value wich could get you stuff at 10% actual price!!
But just today, act fast or it will be gone!
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: LonePaladin on <04-28-11/1157:25>
Those are just modifiers to an item's price, which either have to be specifically requested by the character (used/knock-off), or applied by the GM (stolen, market flooded, etc.). The rules don't state whether or not these modifiers affect the time required to acquire the item, and it wouldn't matter in most cases -- if something costs 40,000¥, a 30% discount doesn't lower the price enough to change the interval.

Especially when you add in the off-brand factor, this should make getting an item easier. If you just want a pair of sneakers, and you don't care if the brand-name says Reebork, it shouldn't take long to find a pair. Finding something used, though, might actually take longer, depending on the item. Finding a used commlink or light pistol should be very easy; finding a used Ares Roadmaster might take a while.

Some of the other price mods get tricky. For instance, "used in a crime under investigation". This seems to imply that the seller knows the item is hot -- and it seems to me that selling something like this would be a short road to a bad rep. Then there's "market flooded". Yeah, I can see the price going down a bit, but this should also make it significantly easier to find. "Market dry" and "police crackdown" should have the opposite effect, increasing the amount of time needed to find the item.

I'm not sure how to handle the possibility that an item's on-hand, at least by the numbers -- using GM fiat works, but that requires me to decide whether or not to make the player wait. I'm open to suggestions on this.
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: dashifen on <04-28-11/1342:24>
Frankly, and this sounds harsh but I don't mean it to be, you're the GM and you are going to have to make decisions like this.  Do your best to be fair, admit when you messed up and (if possible) correct things, and listen to and respect feedback.  As long as that's going on, the players are likely to be okay about things. 
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: LonePaladin on <04-28-11/1356:41>
No worries there, I have to do that sort of thing all the time. I just have a pet peeve on rules in RPGs that don't make sense, the ones that can produce weird results like the examples I've given.
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: CanRay on <04-28-11/1816:25>
With the new "Options" PDFs on the market, perhaps this can be addressed?
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: LonePaladin on <04-28-11/2314:54>
Or perhaps a catalog PDF, with all of the various price lists collated -- with the addition of these figures, updated for how things work in SR4. There's a lot of items that weren't in prior editions, and some things might have changed in rarity.
Title: Re: Acquiring Gear
Post by: Exodus on <05-14-11/1553:17>
We've found sticking with the rules to be kinda boring, I've had the players roleplay for gear. They exchanged a smuggling ship and the life of a former senator for a modified assault rifle, a truck, and a tracksuit.