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What exactly can fix, fix

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Spooky

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« Reply #15 on: <10-17-17/1413:45> »
But the engraving is "damage", just like ink on a page is "damage". A metal plaque with raised letters, however, was made in that shape, and thus would restore to that.
Spooky, what do you do this pass? Shoot him with my thunderstruck gauss rifle. (Rolls)  8 hits. Does that blow his head off?

Senko

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« Reply #16 on: <10-17-17/1420:19> »
I had to give this one some thought and I  find that in the end I'd allow both examples of fix mainly because if you do start going with it restores deliberate damage you start opening a big can of worms. Why does it remove the writing from papyrus scrolls as deliberate damage but not the carvings from the tablet that is much more obvious deliberate damage. How about paint on a broken bookshelf or a ruin wall. What if you cast it on an elaborately carved pillar that's cracked do you remove the carving? For the metal plaque what if rather than being cast in that shape it was stamped, clothing that's been dyed a particular colour/patter, computer chips which I believe are etched, even a door which starts off as one panel then has a hole cut for the handle/lock?

If you start saying it fixes deliberate use as damage you run into a lot of problems and come back to making the spell largely useless for its intended purpose. I'd treat the object as being restored to their intended state as it were. So an unused diary is restored to new condition and a used diary doesn't lose the writing in it. It exists as a used diary thus when you cast fix on it to restore the water damage you don't remove that filled out part. However after thinking about this I think I'd require more hits to restore something that was missing parts of itself as opposed to one that is just in poor condition. That is you need more hits to restore a burnt piece of paper than you do one in good condition and maybe more still for a burnt piece of paper with writing on it as opposed to one that's blank although I'm still thinking about that.
« Last Edit: <10-17-17/1433:07> by Senko »

Kiirnodel

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« Reply #17 on: <10-17-17/1428:22> »
If the Heal spell doesn't remove tattoos, then the Fix spell wouldn't remove stains/inks.

If the material removed to form the engraving isn't present, the Fix spell can't fix it.

None of these things are considered damage to the object in the first place (structurally speaking). And they wouldn't be recorded as damage on a condition monitor for the object.


If a piece of a page is missing, or has been burned away/shot or anything like that, the Fix spell would repair the damage. But magic isn't smart, it couldn't know how the writing is supposed to be, so it either wouldn't be restored or would come back jumbled (depending on how it was damaged).
If you tear up a paper, you can use the Fix spell to make it whole again, but I would say you probably need to puzzle it back together in the right order first (otherwise it would come back as an abstract piece of artwork).


"Damage" from age or chemical changes in the object are debatable, so it would depend on the GM (and likely the individual situation). If something has become old and "brittle" I would say there is nothing that needs fixing (yet). A reinforce spell would be more appropriate in that sort of situation. On the other hand, if a metal device has started to rust through, I could see that as damage in need of repair...
It's all very subjective.

Reaver

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« Reply #18 on: <10-17-17/1432:45> »
 Isn't me unloading a gun into your engine block deliberate damage?

This is the problem. When start trying to add words or imply meanings to things... Everything can be twisted a bit to fit your ideal standard.

Not every spell has a great use all the time. In fact, many spells have a singular or very specific usage. (Doesn't stop people from trying things that spells were never intended for.).


Play carefully with wording and intent...
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Senko

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« Reply #19 on: <10-17-17/1437:39> »
As reaver said if you start saying the spell can fix damage but not deliberate damage you run into huge problems and not just with things like shooting holes in something a lot of objects even today require "deliberate" damage to work much less to be aesthetically appealing. Lets take a painting is the paint used to make it going to be fixed when you cast the spell on it after a leak causes it to get water damaged, what if its cut or part of its burnt away? When does that painting become just a blank canvas again if your saying that the spell fixes deliberate damage? Or take the car shooting lets say it was a go ganger who's art form is to express things with bullet holes? That is they don't just shoot holes in the car but shoot in a specific pattern? Spray painting  your house is that deliberate damage and if not why would the spell remove the graffiti but not the original coat of paint you put on? If it doesn't remove the graffiti why would it remove writing from a piece of paper?

EDIT
What if for the sake of argument you set the house on fire then put it out to get rid of the graffiti. Is that deliberate damage so it can't be undone, does it restore the house with unpainted wood, wood painted the colour it was when you bought the house, wood painted the colour you used because you hated the original one or wood with the graffiti intact?
For me it'd restore with the graffiti as the houses intended state is to be a painted house but it can't distinguish between your deliberate painting of it as yellow or the deliberate patterns of the graffiti.
Same with anything else it'll restore rust, water damage, fire damage, cutting but if someone paints a beard and moustache on the Mona Lisa it won't help because it can't distinguish between the original painting and the vandalism.
« Last Edit: <10-17-17/1453:57> by Senko »

Reaver

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« Reply #20 on: <10-17-17/1509:14> »
This is what the book has to say on the spell (since no one linked it yet)

Quote
FIX
(PHYSICAL)
Type: P Range: T
Duration: P Drain: F
Most spellcasters have devoted their efforts towards
learning spells rather than mechanics. This can leave
a magician in a bad situation when there is a need for
an emergency repair during a run. Fix allows the spellcaster
to repair damage to non-living materials, including
drones and vehicles. The caster must first touch the
object and then achieve enough hits to beat the item’s
Object Resistance threshold (p. 295, SR5).

Fix can repair any item with a weight equal to the
Force x the spellcaster’s hits in kilograms or less. This
spell can only repair broken items when all the pieces
are present. The weight limit applies to the damaged
part, not necessarily the entire vehicle. For example, if
you have a busted wheel, you would count that weight
not the weight of the entire vehicle
. Each hit scored repairs
1 point of Structure rating or 1 box of damage. An
object may only be affected by Fix once and thereafter
may not be repaired again by this spell.


SO, someone shoots out your tire, Fix will repair that with any net hits over the O.R of the tire ( a highly processed item, consisting of Processed rubber from hydrocarbons, Aluminum/copper cabling).

Someone makes off with your alternator Cap, you're screwed.

Your biggest limitations on this spell are the Object resistance of the item in question, and thus the weight of the object (as to gain hits you have to beat the O.R of the item).


So lets look at the Object resistance table (295)

Quote
INITIATIVE TYPE dice pool
Natural Objects                                                                                                                       3
Trees, soil, unprocessed water, hand-carved wood, metal cold-worked by hand)

Manufactured Low-Tech Objects and Materials                                                                     6
Brick, leather, simple plastics

Manufactured High-Tech Objects and Materials                                                                    9
Advanced plastics, alloys, electronic equipment, sensors

Highly Processed Objects                                                                                                     15+
Computers, complex toxic wastes, drones, vehicles


So to fix that flat tire, you are up against 9 dice (Manufactured high-tech object and material). Any hits after the resistance test are counted towards the weight of the object... And since a tire can weigh in between 6 and 15 kilos (https://www.oponeo.co.uk/tyre-article/how-much-does-a-tyre-weigh)... means you need 1 to 3 successes to restore 1 to 3 boxes of damage..... so not really a pristine fix up.  (assuming 6 magic, no overcasting, no reagents)

Fixing that drone is even harder.... and probably gets it back to "barely operable" condition... (as 1 hit restores 1 bot of damage.... provided you have the hits to match the weight.) 


Would it fix a book when a page has been shredded? if you had the bits and pieces, I would say "yes" and it would be readable. The object you are fixing is a "Book" not a single page of processed pulp product.
Same with an old clay tablet. It's a not a block of mud... its an instruction manual, or textbook, or whatever the intended purpose of the tablet was.

BUT, do keep in mind that Object resistance table and really think about what you are fixing...

A book isn't just a natural product because its made from wood pulp. That wood pulp has been treated by 60 different chemicals, run through 30 different machines, been combined with other materials, and then been mechanically printed on, cut, folded, had more chemicals applied to it, and finally shipped to you... all with minimal human contact... which makes it the very definition of "Highly processed".....

So books very well could be on par with fixing a drone... At that level of effort, you BETTER get the words! (and again, why wouldn't you, you are fixing a BOOK. not a page.)
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Mirikon

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« Reply #21 on: <10-17-17/1706:18> »
Since the text says Object Resistance Threshold, that doesn't make it an opposed test, but a threshold test. Meaning you would need 10 hits to fix 1 point of damage on a broken sensor system. And you'd need 7 hits to restore one point of damage to a tire. Fixing an entire drone or vehicle would need at least 16 hits. Fixing a tire would need a pool of 21+ to have an average chance of fixing at least one point of damage, unless you're spending edge and getting lucky. Meanwhile, a spare takes a couple minutes to switch out and costs 200 nuyen.
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Kiirnodel

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« Reply #22 on: <10-17-17/1725:11> »
Since the text says Object Resistance Threshold, that doesn't make it an opposed test, but a threshold test. Meaning you would need 10 hits to fix 1 point of damage on a broken sensor system. And you'd need 7 hits to restore one point of damage to a tire. Fixing an entire drone or vehicle would need at least 16 hits. Fixing a tire would need a pool of 21+ to have an average chance of fixing at least one point of damage, unless you're spending edge and getting lucky. Meanwhile, a spare takes a couple minutes to switch out and costs 200 nuyen.

If you want to be that exacting on it, then you can't use that chart. The chart lists Object Resistance Dice Pools, not Thresholds. It's obviously a copy-paste misprint when they decided to change from OR being a threshold to a dice pool.

Senko

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« Reply #23 on: <10-17-17/1917:27> »
You could also screw your players over by simply saying not all of the tire is present hence the bullet hole and thus you can't use the spell to repair it. Why I had my house rule about only needing 51% of the object something I just realised I hadn't made clear when reading the linked spell.