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Bull's Eye Double-Tap / Burst

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welldressedgent

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« on: <04-22-18/2358:19> »

The Bull's Eye Burst called shot (RnG p116) triples the AP value of a weapon firing APDS ammo. Is this formula (Weapon AP + APDS AP) x 3 or (Weapon AP) x 3 + APDS AP? If the latter, is there any point to using this called shot with machine pistols / SMGs?
wdg

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #1 on: <04-23-18/0004:00> »
As a general mathematical rule of operations, you multiply first and then add.  BTW that's the trick to those puzzles you see on social media where icons stand in for un-specified numbers... e.g. 2+2x3 is 8, not 12.

Looking at the page myself, it's pretty clear.  It says "The Attack results in an AP increase equal to the base AP multiplied by the number of bullets in the burst, with a maximum modifier of x3".

Between the rules of math and the explicit specification that you're multiplying the Base AP, there's really no argument to be had that it could possibly include APDS before multiplication.  And yes, it does look like guns with a base AP of 0 get no benefit from that particular called shot as anything multiplied by zero is zero.
« Last Edit: <04-23-18/0006:44> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

welldressedgent

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« Reply #2 on: <04-24-18/1143:44> »
Good to know, thanks for the math lesson. Algebra seems so long ago.
Sure sucks for the smg guys, though.

wdg

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #3 on: <04-24-18/1157:42> »
Yeah, SMGs are totally outclassed by Assault Rifles.  If the GM doesn't enforce concealability rules, the SMG guy is gonna have a bad time when everyone else totes rifles.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Tecumseh

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« Reply #4 on: <04-24-18/1317:46> »
FYI, this one was errata'd. Here's the errata text:

Quote
The last sentence under the Effects sub-header should be changed from “The attack results in an AP increase equal to the base AP multiplied by the number of bullets in the burst with a maximum modifier of x3” to “The attack results in an AP increase equal to the base weapon AP multiplied by the number of bullets in the burst with a
maximum modifier of x3.”

If your weapon's AP (before ammo) was -1 it is now -2 (double tap) or -3 (burst). If it was -2 then it is now -4 or -6.

Having played with both versions of the rule - pre- and post-errata - the new one is much better. The old version was stupidly powerful, to the point where you would rarely use anything else.

Some would argue that the new version is only worthwhile for assault rifles using burst, since you want the benefit (extra -4 AP) to offset the cost (-4 dice to hit). That's true, but even when using a non -2 AP weapon the called shot still has some value for high-armor targets, including spirits where you're trying to overcome Immunity to Normal Weapons.

Jack_Spade

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« Reply #5 on: <04-24-18/1354:36> »
Actually, the best use for this trick are Semi Auto sniper rifles. A SA burst with an Ares Desert Strike is exactly what mundanes need to stop mage types and their spirits.
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Tecumseh

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« Reply #6 on: <04-24-18/1408:10> »
That's a good use too, especially since high-Force spirits can be dodgy little fraggers that can be hard to drill with a -4 modifier. So much the better if they don't get to dodge at all.

Spooky

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« Reply #7 on: <04-24-18/1517:01> »
Or for when you need to take down that assault troll, use the Barrett......
Spooky, what do you do this pass? Shoot him with my thunderstruck gauss rifle. (Rolls)  8 hits. Does that blow his head off?

PiXeL01

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« Reply #8 on: <04-24-18/1734:57> »
I must admit I never understood the difference between before and after the errata. It seems the same to me.

Would anyone be kind enough to provide a calculation for the two, say using an Ares Alpha?
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Kiirnodel

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« Reply #9 on: <04-25-18/0324:04> »
Before the errata, some people thought you add the extra AP from APDS modification then multiply. The errata made the writing more explicit to clarify that you don't.

Personally, in my games, I've altered when this extra called shot can be used. I did it to control how people use it, for both in-game sense as well as power control. I ruled that the Bull's Eye Double-Tap/Burst can only be used in conjunction with the Double-Tap, Aimed Burst, or Brain Blaster attacks.
The idea there is that those attack types are the ones that aim at lining up bullets to hit targets more (rather than the default bursts that just send more bullets down-range to make it harder to dodge). So a) it just makes more sense, and b) it keeps some of the cheese down by preventing those high-powered Sniper Rifles using Semi-Auto bursts to get -22 AP...

Really, I always found it odd that this uses weapon AP at all. If the idea is that the bullets are carving the way for each-other, wouldn't it make more sense that the AP from the bullet would be multiplied?

Marcus

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« Reply #10 on: <04-25-18/0326:59> »
Yeah the 20 ap thing is pushing it to far imo.
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PiXeL01

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« Reply #11 on: <04-25-18/0813:01> »
Uh, I see. Thank you for clarifying
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Jack_Spade

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« Reply #12 on: <04-25-18/1406:19> »
I've got some kind of deja vu with that discussion.

Bull's Eye DT/B is far from overpowered if you take a look at the numbers
Three dice equal roughly 1 point of damage or damage negation
Taking the Vitals Shot you gain 2 points of damage, equaling roughly 6 additional dice

For a standard assault rifle with AP-2 using Bull's eye burst is therefore only of interest if you are confronted with special armor - be it vehicle or hardened. Otherwise increased damage is usually more beneficial (and less expensive bullet wise)
Every point of additional AP can be converted roughly into one point more effective damage. Which caps out at AP -5 with the Ranger Arms SM-5.
Hand loaded Ex-Ex bullets with a Vitals Shot will have the same effect and are both weapon independent and cheaper.
The only weapon that you can make more effective with this trick is the Barret Model 122 with -6 AP.

Therefore, the only reason to use Bull's Eye is against targets with hardened armor who can take tremendous punishment without breaking.
Once you are in that territory, mundanes need every last bit of advantage they can get. Especially against high force spirits this is often the only option besides using large amounts of explosives to take care of the spirit and the adjoining neighborhood.

Abuse is easily prevented if the opponents mirror the tricks the players use.

Or in short:
Mundanes having nice things is not a bad thing.
After all, nobody seems to have a problem with mages overcasting indirect combat spells for ridiculous AP and damage increases that completely ignore spirit armor...
 
talk think matrix

To strive, to seek, to find and not to yield
Revenant Kynos Isaint Rex

Cabral

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« Reply #13 on: <05-23-18/1035:00> »
FYI, this one was errata'd. Here's the errata text:

Quote
The last sentence under the Effects sub-header should be changed from “The attack results in an AP increase equal to the base AP multiplied by the number of bullets in the burst with a maximum modifier of x3” to “The attack results in an AP increase equal to the base weapon AP multiplied by the number of bullets in the burst with a
maximum modifier of x3.”

If your weapon's AP (before ammo) was -1 it is now -2 (double tap) or -3 (burst). If it was -2 then it is now -4 or -6.

Having played with both versions of the rule - pre- and post-errata - the new one is much better. The old version was stupidly powerful, to the point where you would rarely use anything else.

Some would argue that the new version is only worthwhile for assault rifles using burst, since you want the benefit (extra -4 AP) to offset the cost (-4 dice to hit). That's true, but even when using a non -2 AP weapon the called shot still has some value for high-armor targets, including spirits where you're trying to overcome Immunity to Normal Weapons.
Technically, as worded, wouldn't a - 2 AP weapon firing a 3 round burst be -8 (-2 increased by -2 x 3)? I don't think that was intended, but as phrased.

For 0 AP weapons, you could house rule a minimum -1 AP for each round after the first.

ShadowcatX

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« Reply #14 on: <05-23-18/1126:45> »
Nope, -6. It's increased for every bullet after the first.

Really, unless you're using the perfect weapon and going for the perfect target, you're usually better off using your called shot for damage, not for AP.