[Kiirnodel]

Actually, I think AR is "turtle" based on the description. I'm not familiar with the terminology, but let's see if I can break it down.

Based on what Hobbes said, when a decker would "turtle" they would use old-school input/output and interact with the Matrix without jacking in. Jacking in being the term for going VR into the Matrix. They would do this as a defensive measure so that they wouldn't get biofeedback from IC or if they got dumped (avoiding dumpshock). That's basically what deckers do now when they try to hack from AR instead of diving in through VR.

The only way I can think of that would be considered using a device without being in AR or VR modes would be interacting with the physical device, effectively using a Commlink the same way we use a Smartphone now. But I think that is still (technically) considered AR mode.

Now, there are plenty of devices that you can interact with that wouldn't be considered a Matrix action, and telling your toaster to make toast would probably fall into that category. "Use Simple Device" isn't a Matrix action, for example.

[Hobbes]

"You can perform Matrix actions in any of the three modes." Can is not must.

"Mommy why doesn't Grampa use Trodes like everyone else?"
"Semantics dear, Semantics."

"You can perform Matrix actions in any of the three modes."  RAW you need to show me where it says you can perform Matrix actions without using one of those three modes. 

A rule that states if X then you can do Y does not imply that you can always do Y.  "X" is what enables you to do "Y".  The default is you can't do a thing unless some rule enables you to do a thing.

If I have a Levitate spell cast on me, I can fly.  Nowhere in the rules does it say I can fly, except with Levitate (or similar) Magics.   "You can perform Matrix actions in any of the three modes."  Nowhere else in the rules does it say you can perform Matrix actions.  You need to use one of the three Modes any of which forms a Persona.

As a GM if a Player wanted to perform a Matrix Action of some kind but didn't want to, or couldn't, form a persona, I may let it happen if they can give me a decent RP reason.  Direct Access, manual controls or interface of some kind, whatever, I'll let players RP stuff.   

[Hobbes]

@Kiirnodel

I really like your post. The only point of issue I have is that there is no role for a "turtle" as Hobbes called it. It implies that everything running on the matrix has to be tied to a persona or pan. There needs to be an "default admin" account on devices for initial setup to bring them into your pan set it up to except ownership and receive your persona. Also, "When a person uses a device to connect to the Matrix, the device’s icon is subsumed by the persona’s icon..." implies that your intent is to connect to the matrix, but if you push the button on the coffee machine and it pulls the latest firmware to ensure quality of coffee, its performing the matrix search its self as a "turtle" / "default admin". Now they still registered ownership to you when you bought it. So when the coffee max pro sends its icon across the matrix to check for those firmware udates... they can still log into the device gather its serial and confirm owner ship. Like wise when someone breaks into your commlink with brute force attack to get a mark it sends you a bruteforce warning. You don't have to login with your persona for it to perform that action.

Device Icons doing stuff blurs the line between Personas and Device Icons and is a grey area.  The Coffee Pot example, it's clearly using Send Message on its own.  Download a software update?  That's Invite Mark most likely to some Host somewhere that sends out the Software update and clearly an exchange of information takes place. 

Obviously for the world to work Device Icons aren't as passive as the rules describe.  Clearly they're capable of taking Matrix actions of some kind on their own. 

[ClaytonCross]

The only way I can think of that would be considered using a device without being in AR or VR modes would be interacting with the physical device, effectively using a Commlink the same way we use a Smartphone now. But I think that is still (technically) considered AR mode.

Now, there are plenty of devices that you can interact with that wouldn't be considered a Matrix action, and telling your toaster to make toast would probably fall into that category. "Use Simple Device" isn't a Matrix action, for example.

Could a commlink be duel natured? Some uses of commlink would fall under "Use Simple Device" but other uses being "Matrix actions"?

Its kind of like Hobbes said,"As a GM if a Player wanted to perform a Matrix Action of some kind but didn't want to, or couldn't, form a persona, I may let it happen if they can give me a decent RP reason.  Direct Access, manual controls or interface of some kind, whatever, I'll let players RP stuff."

Hobbes, when wrote that "Can is not must." I thought  semantics too ... and your not wrong on your reasoning. On second thought and with the description of AR on p229 "Your persona can go anywhere in the Matrix using this view." that Kiirnodel pointed out, it does appear that AR creates a persona even though your logged in instead of jumped in.

I had 2 concerns with a requirement for persona for ALL matrix actions.
1. Access of multiple devices at once.
2. Novocrane claiming you could get an initiative bonus from carrying a matrix enabled gear, mage with coffiee pot gets +1d6.

I think though you can only have a persona created with one device at a time and "Use Simple Device" actions on other equipment would not require the creation of your persona on that device. Example: I am using my deck in AR to hack a camera and receive a call from my fixer on my burner meta-link commlink (which is not on my pan due to risk to my deck).

Also, Your reply to Novocrane about AR initiative was spot on. If any further point was needed there:
"When in AR, you use your normal Initiative and Initiative Dice." SR5 p229  I read normal as Physical.

So I think ...  ... that just because its matrix enabled and interacts with the matrix does not mean you create a persona to use it. You can push "on" without AR. Some simple uses of Devices, mostly sending messages, that use matrix actions but don't require the use of Attack and sleaze don't require a persona. Any matrix action that receives player stats as part of the dice pull would require a persona. So if your sending a quick message from your deck but not actively defending it, or its just sitting there by itself, your not creating a persona. As a result it defends itself with a device rating and Firewall. If your hacking on the device and have created a persona, then the defense is intuition and firewall. Any matrix action it performs by itself as a product of up keep and its base function (incoming calls and automatic updates, etc) do not require the device to have a persona...That is my view on it anyway.

[Kiirnodel]

It is true that the rules never say that the Persona is the source of the Matrix attributes, nothing says that personas are the only things that can perform actions on the Matrix. Case in point, IC don't have Personas, but they can cause quite a bit of trouble for hackers.

Personas are the result of a user interacting with the Matrix, when you load up your Commlink and say "Hello Matrix" you've formed your persona.

When a device is running through its regular processes automatically (service updates), it simply does it. It doesn't form a persona, no user is logged in. The Device doesn't need a persona, that much is true. The user needs a persona when they log in, though.

[ClaytonCross]

@ Kiirnodel

Another great post. You say what I am trying to say significantly more clearly and in 1000 less words.

The last point of separation between us is this...
If I log onto a device AR... persona formed. I am aware of what it is doing and supply my stats for its actions and defense
It is alone on a table it uses it device rating and appropriate state for automated actions.
If I write a text message to a buddy, hit send and walk away. I did not send the message and I am not there to provide my stats. The commlink sent the message as I walked away and used its own stats.

So for me its a "Use Simple Device" hand wave but a matrix action for my commlink....

[Kiirnodel]

Sure, probably. The rules also mention that whenever a test calls for a mental attribute, that it uses the attribute of the owner, even if you aren't actively using it. In those sorts of situations, your previous interactions and the way you keep the device "settings" are what let your Mental attributes still step in, even when you aren't actively using it. If it is completely unattended it uses the Device Rating for any Mental Attribute. (Page 237, last paragraph). The example they give is a door lock, where the user set's it up and then simply forgets about it (leaving it completely unattended), so it uses Device Rating for any missing Mental attributes it needs.

In your situation where you set the commlink down and "let it do its thing," I could see that being considered an attended object (since you commanded it to do the action, then set it down to let it complete it). And in that particular situation, your Persona might still be active on the device at that particular time too. Similar to how a computer doesn't always automatically log out the last user.

I've had things run this way before, for simple situations where a full-blown hack isn't really what I want the group to be doing. I might have a security guard be considered "still logged in" on their commlink which has the permissions to do certain actions. In that situation they might be able to tell the commlink to perform certain actions (like open that locked door) because the guard had the proper permissions and they are using his access. After a certain amount of time, or if the action is considered "higher security" it might require verification (which the group couldn't give, as they aren't the guard), and at that point they lose access as the commlink locks up or logs that user out.

I may have taken that in a different direction than you intended ClaytonCross. If that's the case, I may have misunderstood your concern. Are you worried that those three situations should be handled in different ways?

[Hobbes]

I had 2 concerns with a requirement for persona for ALL matrix actions.
1. Access of multiple devices at once.
2. Novocrane claiming you could get an initiative bonus from carrying a matrix enabled gear, mage with coffiee pot gets +1d6.

1.  Is legit.  RAW that gets very fuzzy if you think about it too hard.  Commonly a Decker running Overwatch for the team won't have enough DR on a Deck to cover everyone's Wireless gear so frequently has a Commlink to make a team PAN.  How is the Decker using the Deck to do the thing he does but occasionally still doing stuff with the PAN and the Gear on the PAN.  The RAW is quite explicit that you can only have one Persona formed and you need to re-boot to form another.  GMs need kinda have to hand waive some of the weirdness that happens if a Decker is using a Deck and a Commlink.  TM's too, if they've formed a Living Persona and are using a Commlink for something else.  RAW, Technomancers pretty much can't use a Commlink for anything, but that's silly. 

2.  I am not aware of any AR only initiative bonuses.  That could be problematic. 

@Kiirnodel  - IC are Persona Icons as far as I know.  So are Agents and Sprites.  They're all targeted like Persona Icons anyway.

[Kincaid]

There's no AR bonus to initiative. 

Unattended devices can do all sorts of things without a persona directing them.  My coffeemaker begins brewing while I'm in the shower, but it does that because I spent time beforehand setting it up.

If you've formed your persona using one device and are the owner of, or have marks on, an unattended commlink, you can use a variety of Matrix Actions to access the commlink's functionality.

If you have the commlink in your hand, you can Use Simple Device to use some of its functions (camera, etc.) without forming a persona.  Send a text message to your buddy is a Send Message action.

Players generally interact with the Matrix "in one of three modes" (p 229): AR, cold-sim, and hot-sim.  Turtles are discussed in Data Trails (p 17-18).  They exist (visit your under-funded public library to try one today), but have largely been replaced.  In my game, personae generated by turtles are generic to the machine, not specific to the user, which limits their functionality in a number of ways.

[Hobbes]

If you have the commlink in your hand, you can Use Simple Device to use some of its functions (camera, etc.) without forming a persona.  Send a text message to your buddy is a Send Message action.

Technomancer has Living Persona to do Technomancer things.  Burner Commlink is in a pocket.  Technomancer owns the Commlink and has all the marks.  Either A. Technomancer digs commlink out to use his thumbs to type like some kind of Grognard from the 20's.  B.  Technomancer re-boots Living Persona to form a Persona with the Commlink.  C.  Technomancer uses a Complex Action to do anything with the Commlink via Control Device, even things that would normally be a Free Action for any other Runner with a Commlink.  D.  GM handwaives because silly. 

Why is a Technomancer using a Burner Commlink?  Because he's a criminal dealing with other criminals and is a good runner.  Admittedly, this situation really doesn't matter in non-combat time, but if you're in initiative passes and the TM needs to send a simple "go" message via the Burner...

Totally a theory crafted scenario explicitly thought up to point out the issue, any sane GM in game would handwaive and carry on.  (if they even thought about it).  It's part of the player frustration with the Matrix rules that you're needing a GM to make a call more frequently with the Matrix rules than any other part of the game.   Crunch/Fluff/Fun conflict more frequently with the Matrix Rules, hopefully the GM goes with "fun" but that's a relative thing.  In Missions games where you've got different players and GMs the Matrix stuff is usually the part that bogs things down the most.

I've said before that the 5th edition Matrix rules are overall the best Matrix rules for any edition of Shadowrun, but they're the most frustrating sub-set of 5th edition by a long shot.  IMO and IME anyway.

[firebug]

The type of action this is (i.e., Free, Simple, Standard,
and Complex) is the same as the type of action attempt-
ed with the device, and it requires 1 mark for Free Ac-
tions, 2 marks for Simple Actions, and 3 marks for Stan-
dard or Complex Actions.

So, Option C works completely fine.

[Kincaid]

This speaks more to issues surrounding TMs than it does personae, but I give TMs a high degree of latitude when it comes to aspects of their living persona.  So adopting a new commcode (eqv.) for a run is fine.

[firebug]

For what Hobbes just said, the issue could still come up if a decker wants to use their burner 'link instead of their deck (such as to make it so they aren't obviously a decker if the message is traced back to the device).  Just, as I said, Control Device is not always a Complex Action, so it's not actually less efficient to do it that way.

[Hobbes]

For what Hobbes just said, the issue could still come up if a decker wants to use their burner 'link instead of their deck (such as to make it so they aren't obviously a decker if the message is traced back to the device).  Just, as I said, Control Device is not always a Complex Action, so it's not actually less efficient to do it that way.

Using the Burner Com to signal a Detonator for example.  But if Control Device can be a Free action, then no worries. 

Like I said, any sane GM is going to handwaive this stuff, but Matrix rules confusion does pop up at tables more often than the other game sub-systems.  And it does because the Matrix is such a huge part of the game world and the players/GMs want incorporate it, but get stymied in the ticky-tacky stuff.