Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: skalchemist on <11-09-19/1827:11>
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The heal spell (pg 136) says:
Injuries can only be affected once by any Heal spell
What does that mean? Does that mean you have to track which boxes come from which attacks somehow? Does it mean the rows of the condition monitor? Does it mean each person can only be healed once? I can't find a definition of "injury" in the rules that makes sense with this restriction.
Any clarification would be helpful.
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Simplest thing is to limit a character to being subject to one Heal spell per combat encounter.
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Simplest thing is to limit a character to being subject to one Heal spell per combat encounter.
That seems reasonable, Ajax, but to be clear, are you saying that is the rule? Or are you saying the rules are unclear and that is how you would handle it?
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The heal spell (pg 136) says:
Injuries can only be affected once by any Heal spell
What does that mean?
It just means that you are only allowed to heal a subject a second time if he take more damage after the first time you healed him...
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Simplest thing is to limit a character to being subject to one Heal spell per combat encounter.
That seems reasonable, Ajax, but to be clear, are you saying that is the rule? Or are you saying the rules are unclear and that is how you would handle it?
The rules as written mean you are only allowed to heal a subject a second time if they take more damage after the first time you healed them and you can only heal the newer damage not any damage that was "left over" from the first healing spell.
So, let's say that Samurai Sally gets shot and checks off five Physical Condition Monitor boxes. Then Harry Hermetic casts Heal on her and gets three net hits. Samurai Sally now has two Physical Condition Monitor boxes checked off... and she gets shot again!
Sally is having a bad day, but this time isn't hit as hard, so she only looses two Physical Condition Monitor boxes. Sally checks off two Physical Condition Monitor boxes, for a total of four. Harry Hermetic casts Heal on her, gets crazy lucky with his dice, and gets four net hits! But Sally is only healed for two boxes... Because injuries can only be affected once by any Heal spell.
That's a pain in the astral to keep track of.
So I say just limit everybody to one Heal spell per scene and call it a day. Generally speaking, most Shadowrun combat scenes don't last terribly long anyway, so its pretty rare anyone really needs to be healed magically more than once. If they do get really seriously injured, you can just handwave it and say the magician takes X number of hours to do their voodoo during off-screen time.
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Thanks. So "Injury" in this case essentially means "Each time the person was damaged".
I see where your house rule is coming from Ajax. We'll have to play around with this as we start our own campaign.
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To be exact, the rules state "single set of injuries" in places. Combined with the time limit, basically it's 'the injuries you just took together in that encounter can be treated'. If you use Heal during the fight, then that covers that set of injuries and you could use Heal again later. But if you treat afterwards, you only get 1 First Aid, 1 Medkit and 1 Heal to cover the entire set of injuries you took during that fight. Any second Heal would only cover the fresh damage, not the old one that you didn't manage to Heal before.
Of course Healing during a fight is rare, so it won't be much of a pain to track normally. Worst case, since this only applies to Heal (never saw First Aid being done during a fight), you could mark fresh injuries with a /, injuries not covered by a heal with a \ as well, and once both First Aid and a Medkit fail you as well, add a - , for / X * as different injury markers.
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If you’re injured to the extent that First Aid, Medkits, and Heal have all been used and you’re still not healthy, it’s time to evac. End the run and go visit your Street Doc.
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To be exact, the rules state "single set of injuries" in places. Combined with the time limit, basically it's 'the injuries you just took together in that encounter can be treated'. If you use Heal during the fight, then that covers that set of injuries and you could use Heal again later. But if you treat afterwards, you only get 1 First Aid, 1 Medkit and 1 Heal to cover the entire set of injuries you took during that fight. Any second Heal would only cover the fresh damage, not the old one that you didn't manage to Heal before.
Huh, that is really not clear in the rules that it works that way. Injury feels more like "damage from a particular attack" not "all damage taken during a fight". Michael, would you say the intent of the designers was one "heal" per fight, or one "heal" per instance of damage taken? I think you are saying the first.
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"Injury" does feel more like "damage from a particular attack," but that's not what the rules say. The rules say "set of injuries," which a singular source of damage is very clearly not - you do not have a set of 1 stab wound, but you might have a set of injuries that comprise a stab wound, a bullet wound, and some bruises from getting smacked with a hammer.
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I'm assuming once per fight, basically, unless you start healing during the fight. So basically for Heal, everything during the current fight since start / previous Heal.
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I assume this is like 3e, 4e, 4a, and 5e: Boxes of damage left over after magical healing are treated just like damage spellcasters and conjurers accumulate from drain. We’ve already had to track some boxes separately. Has this changed in 6e?
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Has this changed in 6e?
Nope.
Still the same.
You are only allowed to heal a subject a second time if he take more damage since after the first time you healed him.
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The heal spell (pg 136) says:
Injuries can only be affected once by any Heal spell
What does that mean?
It just means that you are only allowed to heal a subject a second time if he take more damage after the first time you healed him...
That's how we've played it since 3rd edition. Had to break a character's nose once because of it. 😁
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Note that 'has this changed since 5e' isn't newbie-friendly, we should first focus on the text within the 6w rules. The previous-edition know-how can help steer our interpretation, but we should try to keep things as newbie-friendly as possible.
Punching a guy to heal damage that you didn't manage to heal before, is exactly what we're arguing you CAN'T do, Gia. :P
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Specifically with respect to magical healing, the phrase "single set of injuries" (on page 120) seems much more confusing than helpful, and interpreting that as "all injuries received during a fight" doesn't seem to me to be the most obvious interpretation. To me the most obvious interpretation would be "all injuries resulting from a single attack".
Also, Xenon, I can't find anything on page 119 and 120 that says "you are only allowed to heal a subject a second time if he take more damage since after the first time you healed him." I accept that might have been the intent of the designers, but that is not clearly stated anywhere. Its just "single set of injuries". Both first aid and medkit specify "after the end of a combat encounter", so practically in those cases the first aid/medkit would be affecting all the hits received in the recently concluded fight. But a Heal spell only says "injuries can only be affected once" in its description on page 136 and does not include the "at the end of the combat encounter" phrase on page 120. It could clearly be cast within a fight as an action, so a definition of "injury" is necessary and none is provided.
To be clear, Michael and Xenon and others, I'm not trying to argue with you about whether you are right or wrong. I accept that given your greater experience that you are correct in what the intended interpretation of the rules should be. I'm just pointing it out that this interpretation is not conveyed through the actual rules text to a person such as myself, who hasn't done Shadowrun since 1992.
Michael, I suggest this might be a kind of change blindness? Or maybe the phrase "at the end of a combat encounter" is missing from the Magical Healing description on page 120? Either way, it seems like a candidate for a clarification and/or errata in whatever official document eventually arrives.
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so 6E wording is close to whats been around since 2E "A character can only be magically treated or healed once for any single set of injuries"
5e is probably more what you are looking for specific wording, "Any boxes of physical damage your target still had after any boxes are healed magically can only be healed by time and rest"
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5e is probably more what you are looking for specific wording, "Any boxes of physical damage your target still had after any boxes are healed magically can only be healed by time and rest"
That sentence is much clearer. I understand completely what that is telling me. Assuming that was the intent of the rule, then it seems like the full rule is something like this (with a practical non-rule bookeeping assumption to make the rule clearer)...
During a Fight:
* Magical healing can only heal damage boxes without an asterisk; damage boxes with an asterisk have already been "exposed" to ineffective magic healing and can only be healed by First Aid, Medkit, and/or natural healing and recovery.
* Whenever magical healing is used, mark any remaining unasterisked, unhealed damage box left after the healing with an asterisk.
Does that sound right?
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5e is probably more what you are looking for specific wording, "Any boxes of physical damage your target still had after any boxes are healed magically can only be healed by time and rest"
That sentence is much clearer. I understand completely what that is telling me. Assuming that was the intent of the rule, then it seems like the full rule is something like this (with a non-rule bookeeping assumption)...
During a Fight:
You can cast Healing spells on a person to heal them. Once they have been healed, mark each remaining damage box with a little asterisk or similar. Those damage boxes cannot be healed by magic; they can only be healed by First Aid, Medkit, and/or natural recovery/rest. Further damage taken during a fight (e.g. without an asterisk) can be healed with magic; again, mark any unmarked damage boxes with an asterisk.
Does that sound right?
That's correct.
(And I'll preface that's from the 5E perspective of healing from someone who helped write it)
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The problem there was that it used to be First Aid first, Heal second, with that sentence. So in SR5, if you used Heal, First Aid was eliminated as option if you hadn't used it yet. The streamlining in 6w now appears to be explicitly aimed at allowing all 3 kinds of healing once per set of injuries, so no more having to get the order right to get the most out of your healing tricks.
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Also, Xenon, I can't find anything on page 119 and 120 that says "you are only allowed to heal a subject a second time if he take more damage since after the first time you healed him."
skalchemist, the book is clear that you are not allowed to magically heal the same subject a second time until after he taken new injury that have not already been treated by magic healing.
SR6 p. 120 Magic
A character can be healed by Magic only once for any single set of injuries.
SR6 p. 136 Cleansing Heal
Injuries can only be affected once by any healing spell.
SR6 p. 136 Cooling Heal
Injuries can only be affected once by any healing spell.
SR6 p. 137 Warming Heal
Injuries can only be affected once by any healing spell.
SR6 p. 136 Heal
Injuries can only be affected once by any Heal spell (including Cleansing Heal, Cooling Heal, and Warming Heal).
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The problem there was that it used to be First Aid first, Heal second, with that sentence. So in SR5, if you used Heal, First Aid was eliminated as option if you hadn't used it yet. The streamlining in 6w now appears to be explicitly aimed at allowing all 3 kinds of healing once per set of injuries, so no more having to get the order right to get the most out of your healing tricks.
Yeah, there's a few differences
5e first aid can be applied within an hour of the target being wounded. 6e first aid has to be applied within a minute of target being wounded.
5e medkit was the autodoc tool to provide first aid or medicine instead of the character. 6e medkit is another first aid test in addition to the first aid kit test.
5e healing spell was only for physical damage. 6e healing spell is for physical and stun damage.
5e had an order between first aid and magic healing (no separate med kit healing). 6e you can use first aid, magic healing, and med kit in any order (Though there is a time factor that sets an implied order).
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[skalchemist, the book is clear that you are not allowed to magically heal the same subject a second time until after he taken new injury that have not already been treated by magic healing.
SR6 p. 120 Magic
A character can be healed by Magic only once for any single set of injuries.
SR6 p. 136 Cleansing Heal
Injuries can only be affected once by any healing spell.
SR6 p. 136 Cooling Heal
Injuries can only be affected once by any healing spell.
SR6 p. 137 Warming Heal
Injuries can only be affected once by any healing spell.
SR6 p. 136 Heal
Injuries can only be affected once by any Heal spell (including Cleansing Heal, Cooling Heal, and Warming Heal).
Xenon, what you call clear I call confusing. You are assuming "single set of injuries" = "all the damage taken in a combat encounter" (if I am understanding your earlier post). But setting aside previous edition knowledge (which I do not have), why does it have to mean that? My instinctual interpretation of that phrase is "all damage taken from a single attack". That would mean you could roll a heal spell for each attack, but if that healing did not clear off all that damage, the remainder would linger, but it wouldn't matter what order the attacks occurred. That would be more like "injury" was referring to the actual physical wounds. Consider this example:
Bob gets shot by a guard firing on Burst Fire and takes 3 damage. Then he gets shot by the same guard on Burst Fire and takes 3 more damage. Then he gets shot a third time by the same guard on Burst Fire and takes 3 more damage. Now I try to heal Bob.
Your interpretation is that all of those 9 damage are one "set of injuries". Reading other replies here, I think this is probably what the designers intended. But in the fiction, each of those attacks also caused a "set of injuries" in the English language sense of the phrase. Each attack meant that Bob was hit by one or more bullets, causing one or more holes in poor Bob. Each attack conceivably caused injuries, plural, to Bob and therefore could be considered a "set of injuries" in and of itself. Under that interpretation, each package of 3 is a different "set of injuries". I could therefore use heal on him three times. In fact, I would HAVE to use Heal on him three times if I wanted to try to heal him completely, because I couldn't heal all 9 damage at once, I could only heal it the chunks of 3.
The consensus seems to be that your interpretation is correct, and I'm fine with that. But I disagree, it is not clear at all, that's why I asked the question. I'd like to think if it was clear, I wouldn't have needed to ask. :)
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Bob gets shot by a guard firing on Burst Fire and takes 3 damage. Then he gets shot by the same guard on Burst Fire and takes 3 more damage. Then he gets shot a third time by the same guard on Burst Fire and takes 3 more damage. Now I try to heal Bob.
Once you successfully landed your heal spell Bob can now no longer be healed my magical means again. Magical healing can only be applied once for a single set of injuries. Injuries can only be affected once by any healing spell. Not twice. This is not ambiguous.
Your interpretation is that all of those 9 damage are one "set of injuries".
Yes....?
Each injury is 3 boxes.
The entire set of injuries are 9 boxes.
Heal is applied on the set of injuries (plural)
Heal is not applied on each individual injury (singular)
Each attack meant that Bob was hit by one or more bullets, causing one or more holes in poor Bob. Each attack conceivably caused injuries, plural, to Bob and therefore could be considered a "set of injuries" in and of itself. Under that interpretation, each package of 3 is a different "set of injuries".
How many bullets or knifes that was used to cause all 9 boxes does not matter.
Heal will always only be applied once on the entire set of injuries.
Heal will never be individually applied on each individual injury.
I could therefore use heal on him three times.
No.
In fact, I would HAVE to use Heal on him three times if I wanted to try to heal him completely, because I couldn't heal all 9 damage at once, I could only heal it the chunks of 3.
Citation needed that support your idea about individual Heal may be applied on individual injuries.
The consensus seems to be that your interpretation is correct, and I'm fine with that. But I disagree, it is not clear at all, that's why I asked the question. I'd like to think if it was clear, I wouldn't have needed to ask. :)
I find a lot of rules to be ambiguous (5th edition more so than 6th edition), but in this case it is clear that individual Heal spells will not be applied to individual injuries. Heal will be applied to the whole set of injuries.
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The consensus seems to be that your interpretation is correct, and I'm fine with that. But I disagree, it is not clear at all, that's why I asked the question. I'd like to think if it was clear, I wouldn't have needed to ask. :)
I find a lot of rules to be ambiguous (5th edition more so than 6th edition), but in this case it is clear that individual Heal spells will not be applied to individual injuries. Heal will be applied to the whole set of injuries.
I agree that what you are saying is likely what the designers intended, but I'm still not buying that is the only reasonable way to interpret the words in the rulebook.
But who cares? Further conversation on this topic is probably unfruitful. I claimed it was unclear, you claimed it was clear, then I didn't agree with you, then you didn't agree with me. Four posts back and forth on whether the wording is clear or unclear is probably all the topic really deserves. Unless you feel I am somehow doing an injustice to the designers or something, I'm happy to leave it at that.
I've gotten my questions answered, and know how to work with it in play. For that I thank everyone for their help.