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Nature of Specialization, Focus bonuses

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Bradd

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« Reply #15 on: <11-05-10/0407:41> »
Quote from: SR4A, pg. 61
The Shadowrun rules often call for a plus or minus dice modifier to a test. These modifiers can result from injuries and situational factors that affect what a character is trying to do.
Note the section header, Dice Pool Modifiers. This section defines dice pool modifiers and gives you two choices:
(a) Injury dice pool modifiers
(b) Situational dice pool modifiers.

The way that's worded, this isn't necessarily an exhaustive list. However, the rest of your analysis is pretty solid.

The impression I've gotten from developer comments (in the FAQ and on Dumpshock) is that the rule is intended to allow realistic situational modifiers while denying cheese. Unfortunately, there's no bright line between reasonable and cheese. The FAQ says to watch for the key phrase "dice pool modifier," but that leads to treating spell foci and weapon foci differently. Why? Is multicasting more cheesy than multiattacking?

As for specializations, I could see why people would interpret those as being "skill" dice rather than dice pool modifiers. On the other hand, they are situational modifiers ("when the particular specialty applies"), so it also makes some good sense to treat them as dice pool modifiers.

Oh, also:

Quote from: SR4A, pg. 61
Unless otherwise stated, any modifier mentioned is considered to be a dice pool modifier.

The "otherwise stated" modifiers are things like the skill modifiers granted by the Improved Ability power. Those are subject to the modified skill maximum (1.5 × the natural skill rating) and do count as part of the base dice pool. Attribute modifiers (augmentations) are another example. I don't know if there's anything else.

Medicineman

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« Reply #16 on: <11-05-10/0411:23> »
Okay, the OP is asking about clarification on whether Specialization is added before or after the dice pool splits. The FAQ demonstrates that it's before the dice pool splits. Bradd asked because the book wasn't clear on whether Specialization was a dice pool modifier or not. The FAQ clarifies that it isn't a modifier in the terms for splitting dice pools.

How is that wrong?
:)
Very easy, the BBB says clearly that Specialisation is a situational modifier.
Modifiers are to be added or subtracted after Poolsplitting.
So ,If FAQ say include it before splitting than they're simply wrong

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Chaemera

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« Reply #17 on: <11-05-10/0618:13> »
Quote from: SR4A, pg. 61
The Shadowrun rules often call for a plus or minus dice modifier to a test. These modifiers can result from injuries and situational factors that affect what a character is trying to do.
Note the section header, Dice Pool Modifiers. This section defines dice pool modifiers and gives you two choices:
(a) Injury dice pool modifiers
(b) Situational dice pool modifiers.

The way that's worded, this isn't necessarily an exhaustive list. However, the rest of your analysis is pretty solid.

Heh, leave it to me to insist on verbatim compliance. Nature of being an engineer, I suppose. I doubt they intended it to be an exhaustive list, but it's the only listing they give me and they don't tell me it isn't exhaustive (they do spell that out for plenty of other things). As a result, my knee-jerk thinking putting that together is "I've got my list, that's what they are, so go away". Regardless, anything not a threshold modifier, or explicitly listed as being other than a dice pool modifier, is a dice pool modifier.

Oh, also:

Quote from: SR4A, pg. 61
Unless otherwise stated, any modifier mentioned is considered to be a dice pool modifier.

The "otherwise stated" modifiers are things like the skill modifiers granted by the Improved Ability power. Those are subject to the modified skill maximum (1.5 × the natural skill rating) and do count as part of the base dice pool. Attribute modifiers (augmentations) are another example. I don't know if there's anything else.

Yeah, I hadn't thought to go dig up the skill / attribute modifying stuff. I guess I took it for granted that those are the non-dice pool modifiers. Good on ya for being thorough.
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FastJack

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« Reply #18 on: <11-05-10/0901:02> »
Okay, the OP is asking about clarification on whether Specialization is added before or after the dice pool splits. The FAQ demonstrates that it's before the dice pool splits. Bradd asked because the book wasn't clear on whether Specialization was a dice pool modifier or not. The FAQ clarifies that it isn't a modifier in the terms for splitting dice pools.

How is that wrong?
:)
Very easy, the BBB says clearly that Specialisation is a situational modifier.
Modifiers are to be added or subtracted after Poolsplitting.
So ,If FAQ say include it before splitting than they're simply wrong

with a wrong Dance
Medicienman
Okay, I just scanned through my copy of SR4A and I don't see anywhere that it says Specialization is a situational modifier.

Here's my opinion on the matter: I like the idea of putting Specialization before the split because it's part of the skill you learned. You "buy" the specialization to be better at that aspect of the skill above others. If you're firing twin Predator IV's at somebody, you don't get better at shooting with both Heavy Pistols, you simply better overall with Heavy pistols. Whereas if you're firing both guns at a target you can't see, then you get the Blind Fire modifier on each gun because the environment is working against you hitting the target.

Medicineman

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« Reply #19 on: <11-05-10/0922:02> »
Quote from: SR4A, pg. 68
A specialization grants the character a dice pool modifier of +2 dice on tests using that skill when the particular specialty applies.


I'll try to explain it from a different angle

I like the idea of putting Specialization before the split because it's part of the skill you learned.
Yes,but its applied only in that specific Situation (using the specialized Pistol)

Tracing Ammo is also part of the Pistol you shoot with ;)
If you shoot with tracing ammo it's a situational modifier(you get it when you have Tracer Ammo in the Mag)
Specialisation Heavy Pistols is also a situational modifier(you get it when You shoot heavy Pistols)
Its the same and therefore must be treated the same

HokaHey
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FastJack

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« Reply #20 on: <11-05-10/0937:14> »
Hmm... I see what you're getting at.

Here's the question though. You're firing two guns and have to split your dice pool. You have a specialization in Heavy Pistols. However, you've got a HP in your main hand and a Light Pistol in you off-hand, so you're told to use the lesser dice pool. Now, they both use the Pistols skill, but HP is specialized. If it's a situational modifier, then the HP gets two more dice than the LP. If it's not, then neither gun gets the bonus.

Medicineman

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« Reply #21 on: <11-05-10/1059:16> »
Hmm... I see what you're getting at.

Here's the question though. You're firing two guns and have to split your dice pool. You have a specialization in Heavy Pistols. However, you've got a HP in your main hand and a Light Pistol in you off-hand, so you're told to use the lesser dice pool. Now, they both use the Pistols skill, but HP is specialized. If it's a situational modifier, then the HP gets two more dice than the LP. If it's not, then neither gun gets the bonus.
Hmmm  ???
 
If you have the specialisation Heavy Pistols than you get the +2 Bonus (after Splitting the Pool ) for the Heavy Pistol only and not for the light Pistol.Simple as that

so you're told to use the lesser dice pool.
There is no Lesser dice Pool ?!!
the Pool is (f.E.) Pistols 5 and AGI 5 with Special HP.
so you simply split the Pool (5 & 5 Dice) and add +2 Dice for the Hand that holds the heavy Pistol

hokaHey
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FastJack

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« Reply #22 on: <11-05-10/1107:19> »
Hmm... I see what you're getting at.

Here's the question though. You're firing two guns and have to split your dice pool. You have a specialization in Heavy Pistols. However, you've got a HP in your main hand and a Light Pistol in you off-hand, so you're told to use the lesser dice pool. Now, they both use the Pistols skill, but HP is specialized. If it's a situational modifier, then the HP gets two more dice than the LP. If it's not, then neither gun gets the bonus.
Hmmm  ???
 
If you have the specialisation Heavy Pistols than you get the +2 Bonus (after Splitting the Pool ) for the Heavy Pistol only and not for the light Pistol.Simple as that

so you're told to use the lesser dice pool.
There is no Lesser dice Pool ?!!
the Pool is (f.E.) Pistols 5 and AGI 5 with Special HP.
so you simply split the Pool (5 & 5 Dice) and add +2 Dice for the Hand that holds the heavy Pistol

hokaHey
Medicineman
But, if the Specialization is added before the split, then the HP dice pool would be 12 versus the LP's dice pool of 10.

So, buy your reasoning then, if I'm firing with two HP's and I have specialization, I should get the bonus for each weapon? Even though I'm splitting the skill? This is why I don't think it should be applied after the split. If you can't get bonuses from Smartlinks/Laser Sights for firing two weapons, why should you get a bonus for Specialization?


Bradd

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« Reply #23 on: <11-05-10/1440:34> »
For what it's worth, I think the smartlink/laser issue is wholly separate from the pool/modifier thing. While there may be a game balance element to it, I think they're mainly just saying that you can't visually multitask sufficiently to get the targeting assistance. (Personally, I think that would be reflected better by granting the bonus, but before the split.)

Medicineman

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« Reply #24 on: <11-05-10/1459:31> »
But, if the Specialization is added before the split, then the HP dice pool would be 12 versus the LP's dice pool of 10.

So, buy your reasoning then, if I'm firing with two HP's and I have specialization, I should get the bonus for each weapon?


But ist NOT added BEFORE Splitting(thats why the FAQ failed !!)
its Added AFTER splitting the Pool
and Yes you get the Bonus for both HPs (as well as any other Situational Mod )
Shooting Akimbo is OK if it's a High Noon Duell at 5 Yards distance
But its getting Worse when  Sight,Movement ,Wound and other Modifiers are  added
you have much more negative than positive Modifier

, why should you get a bonus for Specialization?
I can only repeat myself(or better the BBB); because its by definition a situational Modifier
You could also Ask:"why only a -6 Modifier for Shooting Blind? It should be more ! "
 
 

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FastJack

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« Reply #25 on: <11-05-10/1515:06> »
For what it's worth, I think the smartlink/laser issue is wholly separate from the pool/modifier thing. While there may be a game balance element to it, I think they're mainly just saying that you can't visually multitask sufficiently to get the targeting assistance. (Personally, I think that would be reflected better by granting the bonus, but before the split.)
But, since this argument is all about the wording, I bring it up. I agree that the ruling is as it should be, since the Smartlink isn't "smart enough" to co-ordinate both hands.

@Medicineman

You keep saying the FAQ failed because you disagree with it. I say it succeeded because I agree with it. As I said before, I don't see anywhere in the SR4A/BBB that says Specialization is a situational modifier. It says it's a dice pool modifier, but does not confirm that it's situational. Are you saying that all dice pool modifiers are situational?

Bradd

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« Reply #26 on: <11-05-10/1621:50> »
I think he is saying that the FAQ fails because it contradicts the rules as written, not simply because he doesn't like it. Even if that's the rule as intended, it's not the FAQ's place to fix that kind of error. (Which is why this discussion is in the errata forum, BTW.)

Medicineman

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« Reply #27 on: <11-05-10/1720:38> »
You keep saying the FAQ failed because you disagree with it.

 :)
No I say they Fail because they contradict the BBB
(just what Bradd is saying/writing)

JahtaHey
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Chaemera

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« Reply #28 on: <11-05-10/2222:03> »
You keep saying the FAQ failed because you disagree with it. I say it succeeded because I agree with it. As I said before, I don't see anywhere in the SR4A/BBB that says Specialization is a situational modifier. It says it's a dice pool modifier, but does not confirm that it's situational. Are you saying that all dice pool modifiers are situational?

Why does it matter if they are situational?
Quote from: SR4A, pg 150
Split the pool  before applying modifiers.
The RAW doesn't say "situational" modifiers, it says modifiers, period. We've already explained that all changes to a die pool are considered die pool modifiers unless explicitly stated otherwise. The rules also say that (as stated above) specializations are dice pool modifiers. Therefore, the RAW explicitly tells us that they are added after splitting.

I seem to remember seeing somewhere a general description of splitting dice pools that wasn't part of the ranged combat section, if someone remembers where this is, 10k ¥ and a point of karma.
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FastJack

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« Reply #29 on: <11-05-10/2309:39> »
Specialization is mentioned three times in the SR4A. Only once (p. 68) is labeled a dice pool modifier. On pages 84, 121 it says as +2 dice to the skill.

Quote from: SR4A, p. 121
Neko wants a sneaky character whose specialty is urban areas. Neko takes the Urban specialization for her Infiltration skill. She writes in on her character sheet as Infiltration 5 (Urban + 2). That means she rolls 5 dice (plus attribute) for her skill on Infiltration Tests, and 7 dice (plus attribute) when infiltrating in an urban area.

To me, the line on page 68 labeling it a dice pool modifier is the part that is in disagreement with everything else. If you look at the original SR4 book, p. 63, it does not say dice pool modifier and it wasn't updated by the Errata for the book.

Since the original book, two-thirds of the SR4A and the FAQ all treat Specialization as an addition to the dice and not a dice pool modifier. So, until otherwise, I'll rule it as before the split until something more concrete comes along. I'll not ask y'all to do the same if you disagree, just giving you my reasons for doing so.