Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: Sichr on <05-20-13/0752:28>

Title: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <05-20-13/0752:28>
As some of us noticed in Upcomming releases, this "Sybila virus plotline" was intentionaly leaked ;) Anything known to it? (somehow this resonates with "Cassandra alternative" mentioned in some amazon preorder)
Title: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <05-20-13/0758:27>
My mistake. Fastjack, can you please move this thread to "Secret history" section? Thank you!
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Mirikon on <05-20-13/0830:54>
I'm fairly certain it has everything to do with what has happened to Fastjack, Miles Lanier, and others.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Dragonslayer on <05-20-13/0846:50>
What happen to Lanier?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Mirikon on <05-20-13/0857:01>
Read Storm Front.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <05-20-13/1053:50>
Read Storm Front.

This. That book is awesome :) Almost as good as Safehouses ;)
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Basic on <05-20-13/1131:18>
Wait what is the "Sybila virus plotline" ?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <05-20-13/1152:16>
Thanx Boll

From the retailers previews:

Shadowrun: Stolen SoulS Shedding further light on the Sybil virus plotline, this Shadowrun, Fifth Edition sourcebook provides extensive information on New York City in the Sixth World, as well as details on extraction runs, giving shadowrunners tools, gear, and technique that can help get people out of tightly guarded spots. Scheduled to ship in July 2013. PSI CAT27200............................$44.99

August


Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Mirikon on <05-20-13/1554:12>
Wait what is the "Sybila virus plotline" ?
I am 95% certain that this is what is happening to Fastjack, Miles Lanier, and others. Given the melding of man and machine, it was only a matter of time before a computer virus was able to affect the wetware in this way. I wonder if Pax is involved somehow...
Title: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <05-20-13/1610:42>
I wonder if that is what was described in "Eye of the hurricane"
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Mirikon on <05-20-13/1615:04>
It certainly fits the symptoms, yes. And it would prove that implants aren't the only way to get it. I'd say that the same thing happened out on Evo's Mars base. Closed network with a virus that no antivirus software would recognize? Everyone's getting it in short order.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Ragnarok on <05-20-13/1731:27>
It certainly fits the symptoms, yes. And it would prove that implants aren't the only way to get it. I'd say that the same thing happened out on Evo's Mars base. Closed network with a virus that no antivirus software would recognize? Everyone's getting it in short order.

Is this the plan for the entire SR universe?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: RHat on <05-20-13/1751:22>
It certainly fits the symptoms, yes. And it would prove that implants aren't the only way to get it. I'd say that the same thing happened out on Evo's Mars base. Closed network with a virus that no antivirus software would recognize? Everyone's getting it in short order.

That character had nanotats, and it is clear nanotech is in some way involved.

I'm certain this is that plot, thogu - the name simply cannot be a coincidence.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Mirikon on <05-20-13/1805:29>
Indeed. The question, then, is where did the virus come from? It seems clear that this is some kind of computer virus capable of rewriting the mind of the infected person. While the AI angle looked good for a while, this part has me leaning more towards Dissonant technomancers. So far (to my knowledge), they are the only ones that have really been able to generate viruses capable of affecting the user's meat.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <05-20-13/1829:53>
Don't be silly.  What do you think Black IC is?  This is a clear, obvious outgrowth of psychotropic IC - albeit in an uncontrolled manner.  Each affected individual had interaction with a certain very few locations - locations which were chock full of server farms containing electronic sentients (to form a group to sum up AI, E-Ghosts, and Free Sprites) upon whom the electronic version of vivisection was being performed while they were alive and aware of it happening.  This is exploratory surgery without anesthetic - and, in fact, making sure your patient is awake so they can feel all the pain, watch what's being done to them, and scream at the horror of it.

The spirit power of Possession/Inhabitation is far, far closer to what is actually happening.  And 'revenge' seems to me to be the primary motivator there ...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Mirikon on <05-20-13/1849:34>
Not quite, Wyrm. All those things you described (Psychotropic IC, possession, and inhabitation) are all instant effects. They don't allow the person to switch back and forth like what we're seeing. It may be closer to PAB technology, but as it is (apparently) categorized as a virus, I'm looking more at Dissonant technomancer/sprite powers.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: VajraSupremus on <05-20-13/1902:17>
Don't forget the clues from that corp helping out those afflicted by the toxins of the Tsimshian Protectorate.

[spoiler]Also, what did that alternate personality tell FJ to do? Get a genewipe and nanohive from that aforementioned corp.Why? Speculation is that the genewipe cleans up the body/makes the neural cortices more malleable so as to alter as these mysterious beings wish, and the nanohive accelerates the process. It's like the Haunting Virus in Eclipse Phase[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Angelone on <05-20-13/1917:28>
I think the virus came from Mars and was sent back to Earth in one of Evo's drone convoys. The cause is something they found there, I believe Dr. Juliette Sanderson was patient zero and K445-G20-Echo whatever it is would be the cause. It's detailed in Hazard Pay in the space chapter, you can find Dr. Sanderson in the fiction.

Or I'm completely wrong.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: RHat on <05-20-13/1931:29>
I'd really like it to be something to do with Dissonant Technomancers and/or Entropic Sprites, simply because I'd like to seem them become a more substantive threat in-setting.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Angelone on <05-20-13/1937:25>
It would be funny as hell if we found out if it was something Plan 9 did all along. He meant to unleash it against Snopes but lost control.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: CanRay on <05-20-13/2013:07>
It would be funny as hell if we found out if it was something Plan 9 did all along. He meant to unleash it against Snopes but lost control.
That's exactly what they want you to think!  ;D
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Aryeonos on <05-20-13/2302:44>
So what, Plan 9 goofed and killed other jackpointers?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Angelone on <05-20-13/2333:04>
Infected a few including him/herself.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <05-20-13/2353:00>
Not quite, Wyrm. All those things you described (Psychotropic IC, possession, and inhabitation) are all instant effects. They don't allow the person to switch back and forth like what we're seeing. It may be closer to PAB technology, but as it is (apparently) categorized as a virus, I'm looking more at Dissonant technomancer/sprite powers.

... I guess you aren't familiar with Judas Psychotropic, are you?

Sorry, Mirikon, but you're arguing from a Linear A perspective, where X must follow Y, and therefore Z.  You aren't acknowledging any possibility of steps in the middle - things we simply haven't seen, and never will, because they are assumed to have happened.  We didn't progress immediately from PersonaFix Chips to Psychotropic IC - but all those middle steps are in the In-Character data path.

You also aren't paying attention to the parallels to the several different kinds of spirit bonds ...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: cynicforever on <05-21-13/1040:53>
uh, Hi
If I can make a guess? In a nutshell, some electronic entities(A.I.'s and/or E-ghosts) are using nanites to "hack" people.

Almost everyone mentioned in that part of stormfront has had some kind of treatment involving nanite machines in the past or present. Maybe the entities learned how to use nanites to reprogram the brain so they could control or even inhabit it.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Angelone on <05-21-13/1840:37>
Honestly, that's probably close. It's just a question if all the people infected have nanites. Miles Lanier doesn't iirc.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Lacynth40 on <05-21-13/1923:24>
Honestly, that's probably close. It's just a question if all the people infected have nanites. Miles Lanier doesn't iirc.

I'm sure somewhere along the line Lanier got nanites... Maybe just a little hive to keep his arteries clean or whatnot.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: VajraSupremus on <05-21-13/1923:47>
The nanites don't look to be mandatory, but they could accelerate the neural architecture being revamped according to these invisible boogeymen's desires.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Crimsondude on <05-21-13/2010:09>
Not quite, Wyrm. All those things you described (Psychotropic IC, possession, and inhabitation) are all instant effects. They don't allow the person to switch back and forth like what we're seeing. It may be closer to PAB technology, but as it is (apparently) categorized as a virus, I'm looking more at Dissonant technomancer/sprite powers.

... I guess you aren't familiar with Judas Psychotropic, are you?

Sorry, Mirikon, but you're arguing from a Linear A perspective, where X must follow Y, and therefore Z.  You aren't acknowledging any possibility of steps in the middle - things we simply haven't seen, and never will, because they are assumed to have happened.  We didn't progress immediately from PersonaFix Chips to Psychotropic IC - but all those middle steps are in the In-Character data path.

You also aren't paying attention to the parallels to the several different kinds of spirit bonds ...

Do not presume that any of these hypotheses are exclusive or, of course, correct.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: RHat on <05-21-13/2018:06>
It's important to note that dissonomancers are able to transmit Dissonant diseases through their bioelectric field.  Meaning they simply need to get close to you.  If they've found a way to do that over a distance using the Earth's EM field...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Aryeonos on <05-21-13/2106:00>
You like them dissonants don't 'cha? Can't blame you though, I think they're pretty neat.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Ragnarok on <05-21-13/2135:56>
Can someone please tell me what goes on in Storm Front?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Patrick Goodman on <05-21-13/2207:33>
Can someone please tell me what goes on in Storm Front?
A lot of shit blows up.

No, seriously, a lot of shit blows up. I'm not being facetious. Singularly unhelpful, but not facetious.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Prodigy on <05-21-13/2210:39>
Also, if you want to know what goes on in a book, buy it. Not trying to be mean, but writers gotta eat too ya know.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: CanRay on <05-21-13/2211:38>
Can someone please tell me what goes on in Storm Front?
This. (http://youtu.be/q0POXW4V1_k)  ;D
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Neurosis on <05-21-13/2218:05>
Can someone please tell me what goes on in Storm Front?
A lot of shit blows up.

No, seriously, a lot of shit blows up. I'm not being facetious. Singularly unhelpful, but not facetious.

He is being entirely accurate. : ) For instance, I got to blow up Denver. Great big bloody chunks of Denver. Great fun.

My girlfriend was so sad (she's from there).

CanRay's post? Also accurate! (Also an accurate description of RIFTS, but that's neither here nor there.)
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Ragnarok on <05-21-13/2248:28>
Also, if you want to know what goes on in a book, buy it. Not trying to be mean, but writers gotta eat too ya know.

I'm not trying to be an inconsiderate prick either, but being unemployed makes it hard to buy such books.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Ragnarok on <05-21-13/2250:49>
Can someone please tell me what goes on in Storm Front?
This. (http://youtu.be/q0POXW4V1_k)  ;D

I love that movie.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Prodigy on <05-21-13/2321:13>
I hear you. Basically the answer is a summation of humongous events that are going to change the SR world. If you can buy a book, this is a great one.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: RHat on <05-21-13/2332:16>
You like them dissonants don't 'cha? Can't blame you though, I think they're pretty neat.

Partly, it's because I feel they're very underutilized.  Taking Twilight Horizon as an example, they'd have been far, far better for some parts of that plotline than what was done - but it seems like the writer had completely forgotten that they existed.

Besides, they're kind of awesome as villains.  Just consider all the terrifying tthings you can build a NORMAL technomancer to do, and crank that all up to 11.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Crimsondude on <05-21-13/2356:14>
Hey RHat, did you ever see this? The Frenzy Dissonant virus: http://crimsondude.tumblr.com/post/13382267276/non-canon-bonus-artifacts-unbound-material (http://crimsondude.tumblr.com/post/13382267276/non-canon-bonus-artifacts-unbound-material)




Oh, this reply post to my linking to it earlier is delightful: http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=9067.msg161002#msg161002
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Aryeonos on <05-22-13/0038:02>
I'd like to see more dissonants, I mean, as a usually hacker player it'd give me Cool StuffTM to do. Unlike other "Threats" in the future they don't sound stupid to me, but that's do to my general hatred of "Epic Tier" events, and characters.

I will give them the mark of  LEGITIMATELY INTERESTING
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: RHat on <05-22-13/0221:43>
"Threats" isn't the term for "Epic Tier", or anything - it's things like bug spirits, shedim, toxics and twisted...

Crimsondude:  That is AWESOME.  Of course, from the Dissonant angle...  Is there any reason that couldn't use Pryon as an infection vector?  Think about it - guy goes around making incidental contact with a bunch of people (shaking their hand, brushing past them, "accidentally" reaching for something at the same time as they do...); there's a lot of things you could do with a bunch of people going berserk on command.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: cynicforever on <05-22-13/0556:03>
Honestly, that's probably close. It's just a question if all the people infected have nanites. Miles Lanier doesn't iirc.

Miles Lanier doesn't have any nanite enhancements, but he does have cyberware. I remember reading somewhere, cybertechnology I think, that they use nanites to connect and maintain the links between the meat and the ware. Could be he went in for maintenance and in the process, one of the e-entities hijacked the process. Not enough to immediately take control, but enough to establish a "beachhead". Then slowly, as Lanier connects to the matrix, it begins mapping the brain, then starts making modifications. Eventually, it makes enough changes that it can start giving the victim sort of "post hypnotic commands", where the subject is asleep, he will automatically connect to the matrix. Further changes are made, eventually allowing the entitiy to actually "possess" the victim. Then its a matter of taking full control, if possible.

Same could be said for Leonization treatments, I remember reading somewhere that nanites are used in the procedure. Another kind of freaky idea is that one article from stormfront about the advertising nanites on the pamphlet. Could suggest that someone/thing is actively "recruiting".
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Patrick Goodman on <05-22-13/1115:01>
Also, if you want to know what goes on in a book, buy it. Not trying to be mean, but writers gotta eat too ya know.

I'm not trying to be an inconsiderate prick either, but being unemployed makes it hard to buy such books.
There's always this (http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=38247&view=findpost&p=1199313).
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Crimsondude on <05-22-13/1150:08>
"Threats" isn't the term for "Epic Tier", or anything - it's things like bug spirits, shedim, toxics and twisted...

Crimsondude:  That is AWESOME.  Of course, from the Dissonant angle...  Is there any reason that couldn't use Pryon as an infection vector?  Think about it - guy goes around making incidental contact with a bunch of people (shaking their hand, brushing past them, "accidentally" reaching for something at the same time as they do...); there's a lot of things you could do with a bunch of people going berserk on command.

That is a possibility. It could definitely work that way if Frenzy evolved or was modified.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Boomstick on <05-22-13/1628:52>
Well, nothing says that nanites have to be "permanent", and some nanotech has transient uses.
I second the fact that nanotech is used in leonization and for bridging the connexions to neural system.
It was in shadowtech, and told again in man and machine and augmentations.

One guess is that simsense, in a broad sense, could be used.
Since simsense is stimulating the would neural system, it is the perfect way to
remodel neural connexions. Cause in the end, when taken in simsense, you never
know if it is real or not, so it should have the same effect than real experience
(at least, with all failsafe removed, like in BTL and personachips).

I guess that development of nanotech neural amplifiers was a step toward this.

Maybe there could be a relationship to something that came from above,
but maybe there are also sequels from the beginning of the new matrix.
After all, we never knew what became the AI and the Jormugand.
Since spontaneously AI appeared, then, it means that somehow the X
factor that made AI what they are disseminated, and I guess the Jormugand had a role to play
into this.
And then, there would be some signal or semi autonomous foreign tech.
And it would become sentient, by the grace of meeting this.
Since spontaneous AI are said to be related to their original programming,
maybe this foreign tech was meant to collect infos about us, as a spy, or an arbiter.
Or had to evaluate if our tech could handle digital minds to save from extinction.
And then, it ran south.

Other possibilities, more down to earth, are psychotropic IC embarking knowbots
becoming sentients, and insanely powerful by inheriting both large chunks of the most
powerful AI on earth code, and dissonant power, with the knowledge of Deus to level the thing
(after all, it included some kind of mental programmation of the nodes of its network, if I remember well).

What I am fearing about is all the possibilities it opens for unwired critters becoming something
more too. Like being reprogrammed to run havok or act like an army, with an hive mind.
And what about weaponized biodrones (largely developed using nanotech).
And that is not even considering unwired critters gone "shapeshifters", in matrix, what would it be like?

At last, that is just the tip of the iceberg. The wolf's killer was stupid enough to show off.
But what about the ones who would retain most memories of their victims, blending in the masses,
running their strange agenda, maybe without even being conscious of it in surface.
Hope the possibility does not exists and that somehow, they have to take the whole personality and
be acting in design. That would make them, even with memories and skills, a lot more obvious
and previsible opponents, that could be tracked by personality tests, "lie detectors" and mind probing.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Angelone on <05-22-13/1913:16>
The interesting part to me is the whole Society of the Phoenix Arisen when one of the possessing entities is "summoned".
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Warmachinez on <05-23-13/2125:33>
I would rather use the term "Called"...

Either way, what really frightens me is the fact that they were able to cast magic by controlling their hosts, which means if they control people with exceptional skills, then they become exceptionaly dangerous.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: RHat on <05-23-13/2127:49>
The interesting part to me is the whole Society of the Phoenix Arisen when one of the possessing entities is "summoned".

It was a little like saying "Can I talk to (name) now?" - both are in one body, and they were trying to bring the one forward.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: CanRay on <05-23-13/2138:29>
The interesting part to me is the whole Society of the Phoenix Arisen when one of the possessing entities is "summoned".
It was a little like saying "Can I talk to (name) now?" - both are in one body, and they were trying to bring the one forward.
"There is no Dana, ONLY ZUUL!"
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Aryeonos on <05-23-13/2356:21>
How many Ghostbusters references are we at in this thread...?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: RHat on <05-24-13/0012:21>
Not enough?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Aryeonos on <05-24-13/0026:28>
The number you have dialled has been lame since 1989.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Hellion on <05-24-13/0205:14>
Hey RHat, did you ever see this? The Frenzy Dissonant virus: http://crimsondude.tumblr.com/post/13382267276/non-canon-bonus-artifacts-unbound-material (http://crimsondude.tumblr.com/post/13382267276/non-canon-bonus-artifacts-unbound-material)




Oh, this reply post to my linking to it earlier is delightful: http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=9067.msg161002#msg161002
I love "Frenzy" gonna have to use it in a game :D

And i have to say i love the idea of it being a Dissonant disease or something similar.... The concept of someone who can do as much as a technomancer can and do it to be evil just seems like a great plot hook to me.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: RHat on <05-24-13/0329:52>
Hey RHat, did you ever see this? The Frenzy Dissonant virus: http://crimsondude.tumblr.com/post/13382267276/non-canon-bonus-artifacts-unbound-material (http://crimsondude.tumblr.com/post/13382267276/non-canon-bonus-artifacts-unbound-material)




Oh, this reply post to my linking to it earlier is delightful: http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=9067.msg161002#msg161002
I love "Frenzy" gonna have to use it in a game :D

And i have to say i love the idea of it being a Dissonant disease or something similar.... The concept of someone who can do as much as a technomancer can and do it to be evil just seems like a great plot hook to me.

Dissonants can do MORE.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Hellion on <05-24-13/0545:53>
Hmmm me thinks I got to go look at my books tonight and get more details I skimmed that section of Unwired!!!
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: RHat on <05-24-13/0624:30>
Highlights are basically additional Echoes and the ability to have malware complex forms - but that's actually pretty huge right there.  Dissonant viruses are pretty much at the GM fiat level of capability, and some of those echoes do things like inflict actual physiological diseases on people through the dissonomancers bioelectric field.

And every last one, no matter how high functioning they are, is psychotic - and for the most part, due to how high TM mental stats trend towards for good reason, they're going to be VERY high functioning.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Mirikon on <05-24-13/0929:04>
They are the TM equivalent of toxic shamans, only they have the ability to hide their nature. You find one in the 'trix, hit them as hard as you can, or log out immediately, and go find their meat body.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: CanRay on <05-24-13/1037:05>
How many Ghostbusters references are we at in this thread...?
Yeah, sorry, been on a Ghostbusters kick for some reason recently.

In other news, I finally found my Ghostbusters DVDs!  ;D
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Boomstick on <05-25-13/0826:02>
By writing in the "Thor hijacking" topic, came an idea to my mind.

Do you think that the virus is allowed by the new matrix architecture,
is helping but not directly related, or just unrelated?
And in the former cases, don't you think that the most powerful the nodes
you would visit, like what did FastJack at first with the invite of the corps,
the more likely you would be to be infected?

Also, if the new architecture is mandatory to allow this thing to develop,
what about involvement of corps (like Azzie, or on the other side, Evo,
who could see it as a new step toward the post humanity they want to achieve)
or of undercover elements inside with their own agendas?

Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Mirikon on <05-25-13/0828:58>
Not related to the new matrix at all. Symptoms started back in 2073, apparently. No, this is something else.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <05-25-13/0836:26>
I agree. The worst viruses SR universe know both Crash virus and Jormugand brought immediate effects, with no signs of problems prior to the attack. This is different. More like it evolved by itself, than being designed with purpose...
Also...
somehow I feel this can be some Consensus evil twin
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Mirikon on <05-25-13/1441:42>
Let's take a moment and sum up what we actually know so far. We've found two possible infection vectors: nanoware/cyberware and being exposed to the NeoNET system in Albuquerque (as FastJack was). It is possible that exposure to other infected systems causes infection as well (which would explain the rapid spread of the virus through the Gagarin complex on Mars). This does not mean to say that there aren't others. Those infected begin to develop what appears to be a split personality, and the second personality seems to have at least some access to the original's memories and abilities. The Society of the Phoenix incident indicates that Awakened infected would keep their powers in their second persona, at least, which implies that Emerged infected would do the same. The FastJack/SEARCH dialog appears to indicate that adding new 'ware may help speed the 'conversion' process, as well as showing that (at least some of) the secondary personas are innately hostile to the primary ones. The secondary persona attempts to hide its presence from others, possibly until it gains enough strength to take total control, and has an innate self-preservation (or perhaps collective-preservation) response to threats, sometimes even sacrificing its host (and possibly itself) to evade capture.

Did I miss anything?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Boomstick on <05-25-13/1551:44>
I have to add something:
if the virus allows Awakened capacities, so far as we have known
that Emergent and Awakened capacities were mutually exclusive.
So it would seem to rule out a Dissonant origin for the virus.

Are we even sure that it came from Mars? I missed the point, I will read the topic again).

Maybe the additional augmentations don't really speed up the process (maybe it is Jack's feeling,
but who knows, as its mind might be altered in its sensations and perceptions, and possibly memories,
as we see in "Eye of the Hurricane" that the guy should at least remember that he don't remember doing something,
and he only become aware of it when put in the face), or not only, but rather keep
it ongoing, as DNA contains a lifetime of infos that would try to reverse back the basics
of the brain structures to their normal functions, which are indeed not to host
an alternative personality with who knows which abilities (because, yes, part of your personnality is genetic,
and part of your behavior related to the way your brain structures are organized, which is at first decided by genetics
as well as informations acquired by environmental stimuli)

Then it would make sense to use genewipes to "clean the ground up/format" before install.
Turns to me like if these secondary persona were the evolutions of AI induced technomancers,
without the input of the AI to come alive but with the flaw of being dependent of nanotech
to maintain this state.
So after all, the kind of statements we saw on Jackpoint maybe was a try to scare us not to try and
discover the truth. Or maybe it is really some kind of VVHMH digital version. And then,
say hello to shitloads hitting fans.

On a side topic, do we know if Emergent capacities can appear outside of Manasphere?
I mean, it makes sense they can work outside of it, as they have their own environment of choice.
But aren't the advent of these capacities linked somehow to the "manasphere" created by such amount
of life in computer systems, despite them being dry at first and improper for the development of such kind
of "magical" capacities.

Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: RHat on <05-25-13/1803:36>
You cannot possess Resonance and Magic together.  That does not render Awakened immune to Dissonant diseases.

AI induced technomancers aren't a thing, though AI induced otaku were.

SEARCH specifically asked Jack to get specific ware to do things the "easy way", so ware is certainly involved somehow.

And we don't really know what Resonance/Dissonance is or how it works; some theories link it to the Earth's EM field.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Boomstick on <05-25-13/1824:48>
Well, while it was called a virus, I would have felt that being some sort of "foreign organism" having
some special abilities, it would be in some way exclusive of whatever other special abilities
the host would have. Which would rule out the capacity to handle other powers.
But you made a point, and actually VVHMH could affect technomancer, so my idea was
flawed (lacking definition for myself leading to forget details like these).

Can we really be sure for technomancers? I know all weren't at Matrix 0/Novatech for Crash 2.0,
but the mix with a super dissonant worm which was maybe the most pervasive thing into the matrix
at that time, and 3 of the most powerful AI (and actually the only one at the time)
certainly had side effect outside of this restricted host.
Since we could observe some AI awakening everywhere around the world.
And TM came quite at the same moment. Not to say both are related
(I don't think that new AI have the kind of power Deus had) but that Crash 2.0
messed up thing deeply.
Or maybe, that the change in the very nature of Matrix, since there were already "natural otaku",
not dependent on AI.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: RHat on <05-25-13/1828:10>
Yes, we can.  Many were not even remotely able to connect to the Matrix at the time.  Further, not all of the otaku at ground zero Emerged - I've seen no indications, even, of higher rates amongst the survivors from that battle.

Hell, I'm pretty sure I recall mention of some Emerging well after that event.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <05-25-13/1913:19>
The eye of the Hurricane.
the guy was hitting family databases on purpose, not indifferently hacking around. May it be just the part of the bigger picture? IMO yes... All points Mirikon have raised are relevant, as far as we know, and I than him for this summary.
So...there is some agenda and individual cases infected are acting towards the same goal?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: VajraSupremus on <05-25-13/2059:16>
It's possible the family databases were broken into in order to look for other potential subjects. Even now we have full genealogical and genetic profiles of our families and the individuals within. They know how to convert people with this digital virus, so they look for the most viable targets through these databases, to increase success rates.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <05-26-13/0622:59>
Little quote Ive missed before:
Quote from: Corporate Guide, p. 106
Dr. Sharon stopped before a door marked SJT958.
Unlocking the door with an old-fashioned key, she opened it.
“We are cultivating autonomous biological control systems.
‘Wetware.’
Unfortunately, growing biological masses that
can keep pace with non-organic computational systems has
been difficult to say the least. This is why we’re pursuing other
avenues of research.”

Here it is. MCT once again?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Boomstick on <05-26-13/0636:47>
I would have thought that it would adress some kind of synthetic brain in a jar issues;
at the time, and we know that it is a possible option for cyborg building.
But that could make sense.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Mirikon on <05-26-13/0722:36>
Little quote Ive missed before:
Quote from: Corporate Guide, p. 106
Dr. Sharon stopped before a door marked SJT958.
Unlocking the door with an old-fashioned key, she opened it.
“We are cultivating autonomous biological control systems.
‘Wetware.’
Unfortunately, growing biological masses that
can keep pace with non-organic computational systems has
been difficult to say the least. This is why we’re pursuing other
avenues of research.”

Here it is. MCT once again?
Possible. Obviously, the 'other avenues' they talked about was putting technomancer brains in jars with special cyberware that allowed them to keep their abilities, but made them go rapidly insane. But the original project? Maybe. Still, this seems to have started with EVO and NeoNET, so that'd be a stretch.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <05-26-13/0732:53>
It won`t be the first case of "not-so-successfull-industrial-espionage"  :)
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <05-26-13/0933:32>
Lol and this Smiling Bandits memo a few down:
Quote from: Corporate Guide, p. 112
// upload uniformat text attachment :: user
The Smiling Bandit :: 04/11/72 //
From: Kenchi Inoue, Vice President, Drive-Ware
Technologies
To: Drive-Ware Employees, Neo-Tokyo Office
....

For decades, Mitsuhama clinics around the world have
offered assistance to those in need. Whether it is
rebuilding communities devastated by the Crash
and Crash 2.0, offering assistance to countries
devastated by natural disasters, or giving psycho-
logical counseling to AIPS sufferers, Mitsuhama
has always extended a hand to the international
community in times of need. Now you can help
with our next charitable project.
Despite the progress made against horrible
twentieth-century diseases, many poverty-level
families continue to suffer from preventable birth
defects and genetic ailments. By donating a small
portion of your paycheck, you can help fund an
immunization program in your local community.
Help Mitsuhama help the world. Together, we can
restore civilization, one community at a time.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <05-26-13/1002:07>
Speculating further:
Quote from: Corporate Guide, p.114
Mitsuhama’s wetware research appears to be bearing
fruit. Using some ultra-secret technique, MCT created a
biomass capable of data mining in a consumer orders database.
Apparently the biomass has a higher success rate of matching
customers to future purchasing decisions then any software
program because it is capable of independently developing
algorithm variables beyond those that exist in MCT ’s hold-ngs.
While this is a long way from the fully automated wetware drones
MCT wants to be producing , it’s a significant advance in wetware
research

On the same page they talk about progress made in Nanotechnologies. But what strikes me the most is the purpose of wetware and the naming of the Virus: Sybila. The Prophet.

While it is apparent from prior quotes that the progress isnt that good as expected, there are many leads that support this hypthesis. Strange I cross this completely unintentionally
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Mirikon on <05-26-13/1521:39>
That quote is about the Rose Garden, where they keep all the TM brains in jars. See Corporate Intrigue.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <05-26-13/1525:19>
Checked later on. Still, there is more than just 1 lab IMO...IDN if the mission in CI means that Project Rose Garden is completely destroyed. There may be more Gardens, MCT is hunting TMs globaly, not just in LA.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Boomstick on <05-26-13/2139:36>
That quote is about the Rose Garden, where they keep all the TM brains in jars. See Corporate Intrigue.
Well, TM in a jar fit well the vengeful part for being persecuted, I guess, at least as much
as an AI could. That could make what make them feel in a war with humans, and
the added punch factor of MCT's experiments could have them gifted with nasty abilities,
if they needed even more. One step more toward dissonance.
Or their experiments to merge brains with tech as a way to Immerse faster?
Could make sense, if you consider it is becoming the tech more?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <05-26-13/2303:05>
Good ol' Dr. Halberstam.  Will the echoes of your work never fade?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: DamienHollow on <05-27-13/0057:39>
You know what, i normally only have one or two bits of cyber-ware... I think I'll just leave those out from now on.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <05-27-13/0455:06>
I heard best rigs are made by MCT. I may avoid Riggers for a while. TBH...one of my PbP characters, Omar, is perfect candidate. Rig, nanohive wiith rigbooster nanites...I see it comming soon :P
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Dinendae on <06-01-13/0602:04>
I heard best rigs are made by MCT. I may avoid Riggers for a while. TBH...one of my PbP characters, Omar, is perfect candidate. Rig, nanohive wiith rigbooster nanites...I see it comming soon :P

<insert evil GM laugh here>
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Boomstick on <06-01-13/1543:43>
While reading Augmentations the other day, I found some reference to a whole group of people born from artificial wombs (in the same way that vat grown clones used for biotech). And about the fact that they were not alone. And also about the techniques used to try to make the clone brains develop in a natural fashion, followed by saying of successes being to manage to handle simple matrix interfaces. Could be some "concept proof" for the development programs made for cyborg building with artificial brains, but also could have leaked to other "people development" topics and ended in some wrong way. I think it is interesting, even if I would not say that it could be responsible for technomancers rise as I think they are just the second wind of what caused otakus, but the differences between both and this adaptation in a so short time leave only two possibilities: this is something related to a strange form of "empathic magic" that spread into matrix tech as "life" developped there, or it is some planned evolution by people who knew that there was going to have some change cause we have observed that this kind of thing took a long time to develop, even for SR tech.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: DamienHollow on <06-01-13/1701:07>
I heard best rigs are made by MCT. I may avoid Riggers for a while. TBH...one of my PbP characters, Omar, is perfect candidate. Rig, nanohive wiith rigbooster nanites...I see it comming soon :P

<insert evil GM laugh here>

They aren't all that hard to play without cyber. You loose the bonus dice from the rig but it does mean you're safe from the virus by our current understanding.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Bull on <06-05-13/0129:24>
Hehehehehe

<grin>
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: CanRay on <06-05-13/1220:12>
Hehehehehe

<grin>
Heh. (http://youtu.be/lb8fWUUXeKM)
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <06-05-13/1827:03>
Hehehehehe

<grin>
Heh. (http://youtu.be/lb8fWUUXeKM)

you like links?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmmwpPvd798
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Angelone on <06-05-13/2019:20>
Little do we know the virus is caused by Sparkle Brand toilet paper. To be truly safe we must use Brillo Pads.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: CanRay on <06-05-13/2250:38>
Little do we know the virus is caused by Sparkle Brand toilet paper. To be truly safe we must use Brillo Pads.
Well...  Trolls are safe.  :P
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Malathis on <06-06-13/1223:17>
Little do we know the virus is caused by Sparkle Brand toilet paper. To be truly safe we must use Brillo Pads.
Well...  Trolls are safe.  :P
Is that because they use brillo pads already, or they don't use either?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: CanRay on <06-06-13/1254:12>
Brillo Pads, Built Troll Tough!
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Angelone on <06-06-13/1750:05>
Now available quilted Brillo pads!
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: GiraffeShaman on <06-06-13/2341:08>
Whatever you do, don't squeeze the troll's Charmin.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Mithlas on <06-07-13/0044:20>
I'd say that the same thing happened out on Evo's Mars base. Closed network with a virus that no antivirus software would recognize? Everyone's getting it in short order.
What happened on Mars? I can't even recall off-hand how many corps are active there besides Evo.

if the virus allows Awakened capacities, so far as we have known that Emergent and Awakened capacities were mutually exclusive. So it would seem to rule out a Dissonant origin for the virus.
True in general, but the system at play here could be in tandem instead of simultaneous. It could be a dissonant-through-cyberware net-virus that merely sends control through the attached meat, which would then affect a degree of whatever was part of that person (like being Awakened).

part of your personnality is genetic,
and part of your behavior related to the way your brain structures are organized, which is at first decided by genetics as well as informations acquired by environmental stimuli)
As this is part of my degree, I can tell you that genetics do not make the personality - although some people explain it like this, it's a grossly inaccurate oversimplification. More accurately, it forms some very wide borders on what our personality can develop, as well as occasionally facilitating certain personality development.

Still, this seems to have started with EVO and NeoNET, so that'd be a stretch.
Unless it was a project (started by MCT?) intended to screw up EVO, and it plowed through its expected parameters and started infecting more people than the original targets (who may not have been heard from yet).
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Angelone on <06-07-13/1010:07>
Evo is the only corp actually on Mars. Ares has a base orbiting one of the Mars' moons.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: CanRay on <06-07-13/1257:55>
I wonder if they found the portal to Hell yet, and if one lone Marine has to deal with it?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Boomstick on <06-07-13/1755:29>
True in general, but the system at play here could be in tandem instead of simultaneous. It could be a dissonant-through-cyberware net-virus that merely sends control through the attached meat, which would then affect a degree of whatever was part of that person (like being Awakened).
Mirikon also pointed out something like that.
One thing there is still is that possessed TM can't use their abilities. It wouldn't do in the other direction, too, if it was really some kind of possession I guess. But it is metagame thinking. I guess that they would not want to break the parallels between magic and technomancy.

Quote
part of your personnality is genetic,
and part of your behavior related to the way your brain structures are organized, which is at first decided by genetics as well as informations acquired by environmental stimuli)
As this is part of my degree, I can tell you that genetics do not make the personality - although some people explain it like this, it's a grossly inaccurate oversimplification. More accurately, it forms some very wide borders on what our personality can develop, as well as occasionally facilitating certain personality development.
Well, I said parts, and I am very well aware of that. But as with examples like some people having an allele being completely immune to some kind of addictions while others are exposed to ten years earlier onsets, or the fact that borderline, schizophrenic, antisocial and thrill-seeking personalities are more bound to be driven in addiction, or that some gene alleles increase the risk of having some or other neurosis and so on, you can easily imagine that what is true for pathologies is true also for the basal working of the brain. And, also, that what is valid assessment for all cognitive processing like "music/face recognition", "memory reinforcement", "conditioning sensitivity", praxia, and so on, could also be for more "emotive" functions. In any case, our personality is also widely a product of our own personal abilities, because we are bound by our own abilities to interpret signals and stimuli of our environment. 
 So I would not set these borders as wide as you do.  Tests showed that depending on individual abilities, there are schemes of learning that lead easily to improvement or frustration. And guess what?  In some conditions, there are no taylored teaching, so a whole part of people in these conditions are literaly left apart (and potentially, driven in a state where they can't learn properly basics, be it reading, writing or so on, and it could apply also on "relational skills" and "personality"). Indeed, that's a combination of environment and background and genetics, but it means that genetics still play a good part, with alleles granting us some levels of abilities in differents mental tools.  There is not so much of exceptional people because it usually makes them dysfonctional in some way, but evolution did, in some way, select a level of intelligence and abilities that is balanced for us being able to overcome problems with our smarts while not being overwhelmed by it. Because at times, you just have to be a grunt, fight your way, break things, steal the day without being too empathic, and get the girl.
So there are not a lot of variability for each tool and that flatten differences, which makes people relatively equal to become anybody depending on the environment, but as with combinations of variable things, sometimes differences add up in some directions and go beyond the regular  boundaries.
At least, that's my theory, for the last part, the beginning being a lot of proven things by people before me.
It hope this is not too grossly and inaccurately oversimplified for you;)

________________________________________________________________________________________________________
At first I came back to this thread in order to speak about something else:
reading Nath's unofficial Storm Front errata proposition on the board, the "Ada" name rang some bells.
Is there a link with Ada lovelace (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_Lovelace), or even better, with Gibson and Williams "The Difference Engine "
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Difference_Engine)?
If there was, well, the topic being "computer science" and its potentiality, well I guess that it would fit to Sybil virus.
And Oh shit, as I write I guess I stroke some spot, because the history follows Sybil Gerard, a political courtesan and daughter of an executed Luddite leader (she is borrowed from Disraeli's novel Sybil).

And spoil about the history;[spoiler]she has multiple identities, there is some degrees of alternate reality involved and  some very powerful computer mac guffing in the form of punched cards. Sybil's name is itself drawn from this book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybil_%28novel%29 where the story is about exploitation and society divides[/spoiler]

While the stories contents are not indeed the same than the storyline for Sybil virus, I guess there could be some degree of inspiration from these real facts, not that it will  help more regarding Shadowrun to know what is really going on.
But I think there is really something.

Edit: my looking made me found so far some relationship of Ada to "Gödel's theorems (at least in Gibson/Williams book).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_theorem
They are also known as "incompleteness theorem".
I wonder if now I saw some kind of relationship I am making all these up or if that makes sense for someone else?

Edit 2: I had another question; I was under the feeling that something in Wolf's entity post on Jackpoint was familiar, but I don't have a photographic memory anymore and not very used to english literature in original version, so maybe my feeling recognizes some meaning but not exact words because I read the translated version of the book where some sentence was picked up...
But there is more meaning to this than just a straight manifesto. There is more symbolism to it because of relationship with a previous work, I guess?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <06-07-13/1830:30>
It is nice to have game written by such educated people. I love this feed for thought...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Boomstick on <06-07-13/1835:48>
Well, I am actually very surprised that I read nothing such this before.
I made the connection because of the Ada name (which in SF, is not a name, but an acronym), but actually Williams/Gibson book is widely known among cyberpunk readers, and even Ada lovelace is pretty well known around people who study computer sciences. I actually know here because even if I never studied these formally, I got some interesting conversations about it which then went about her. She was an amazing person.
And I am just wondering if these are just hommage names, or if there is more than that to the names?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Boomstick on <06-07-13/2146:19>
Don't know if anybody found that: https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/3003481329/69b76cc7794d4273e8068ca6f0e1c084.jpeg
on this twitter: https://twitter.com/srschletz.

Here are my hypotheses about what is the entity who wrote:

[spoiler]Maybe it is some strange fusion of both of the greatest threats of Matrix and Magic.
It seems to have had some problem with nanoforges, and to be a fan of Ares since the event.
A big fan. Which are using insect spirits, in some way.
Taking up both thing, pushing them to eleven? Well, gestalt is a good solution, the whole is superior to the sum of the part.
There are sprites which are basically spirits of the matrix. Then came unwired creatures. We still don't know for "insect spirits" but Matrix in itself is a hive of people. Maybe we are the insects to be crushed by "Mantis" viruses that came to life. Be it by Magic or AI, or Dissonance or everything at the same time. Smelling like shit, I wanted to make a hack if I could play SR5 (wishful thinking) but I think things are gonna be nasty inside the Grid now.
Making me think about Echo, which was a program designed to kill other programs. Viruses. Deus, which was the most monstruous abomination we ever made, thinking of himself as a god over human insects. And who had so much power he was able to transform human flesh into biologic hosts for himself. Megaera/Morgane, whose "mind" went south after humans "studied" her "alive". Jormugand, another abomination fated to destroy the Matrix as we know it.
Everything there rings some bell about the new entity.
And remember, first ICE came to be created because corps took up remnants of the Virus of the first crash, whose origin was never known, and which somehow found a way to kill human (as far as we know it, it was only biofeedback consequent to simsense malfunction. But maybe it was designed to track humans and kill them. Maybe he wanted it, too). I would not be surprises that Novatech host was scavenged in the aftermath in the same way they tried to use the Virus code. They never learn. Maybe in some way, they created some "matrix dna pattern" that was able to resonate alike magic with DNA in a way opening channels to some nasty thing, like some kind of Mantis spirit, or it is just plain nasty code borrowed from 4 of the most potent Matrix Entity in the whole shadowrun history.
I am eager to know more.
Damn!
[/spoiler]

And that bit of japanese song about the sentence "we rewrite our lives" found in the text of Wolf;
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/632693-silent-hill-book-of-memories/62598613
[spoiler]
Quote
[
This isn't the life that I dreamed it could be
I'm starin' into the eyes of the shell left of me

and now, every decision I make
the good, the pleasure, and the pain
could simply all be erased
if I choose it to be


this nightmare unfolds like a rose awakes to the spring
always so close to the sanity I'm trying to cling to

I'm tearin' out the pages 'cause it hurts
to be forced to feel the hearts break
how much of this torture can I take?
is it not worth the risk to create
just one
more try
I know that I can fix it

if you could rewrite our life any way that you please
would you tear out the pages of our memories?
would you take back the pain and all the hurt we create?
or could you be satisfied with the love that you've made
with me?

if you could rewrite our life any way that you please
would you tear out the pages of our memories?

would you take back the pain and all the hurt we create?
or could you be satisfied with the promise you made?

so we rewrite our lives but it's not what we think
in the chaos we dance as we stand on the brink
always one change away from makin' ourselves complete
the world will perish in flames
and I'll watch as you fade from me


we write our love psalm
rewrite our love psalm
we write our love psalm
rewrite our love psalm
/quote]

Now, I know that this part of my post is the less solid, and is on the boundaries of funny, but I like how some randomness would make it fit with the topic at work;)
[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <06-08-13/0330:52>
well, we have posession based traditions in magic, why not having this being matrix equivalent for sprites or some memetic entities...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Boomstick on <06-08-13/0731:58>
If I remember well, Mantis spirits were  the ones who automatically succeeded in merging with bodies thus being stealth, compared to the others who would be in insect or merged form? That could fit.
I am making sense here? Or is it just really wild speculation of myself gone crazy?

The only thing that would not make sense here is the relationship with nanobots and gentech. Apart of the fact that those new tech "predates" the previous ones, but that's very far-fetched.
Does possessing spirit need some sacrifice to do such? I don't remember that?
But it could be some "Essence drain" power version which works in this way (and thus as Essence is assimilated, that would be like a "Karma sacrifice" made to make something magic permanent. But that would be a premiere here in the game system and the internal logic of the world.)
So I am still balancing between both possibilities I stated. One is just an addition to the other, but actually they could be as well separated.
That would not make them less dangerous or freaky.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <06-08-13/0811:02>
No speculation is crazy enought. As we have Materialization power for Spirits, I would expect Sprites too would be able to affect physical world. If the first signs are in this form, I wont be surprised. But since it is mentioned in plotline campaign product I would bet that it would be more like one-time event that is set to motion by some current powerplayers. OR maybe introducing a new one....
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Boomstick on <06-08-13/0824:36>
Maybe, maybe not. TM were introduced as part of plots, in some ways. Shedim too, and while they are not as much active, they did not faded completely, or am I wrong?
But I guess that will make a good campaign were players will have to have some role in fighting back. Or helping them.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <06-08-13/0832:15>
Maybe, maybe not. TM were introduced as part of plots, in some ways. Shedim too, and while they are not as much active, they did not faded completely, or am I wrong?
.....

Now that is one thing I was really currious about. Do they get lost completely after Dulkezahns Rift being closed? Or they remained, since Astral Gateway power gives Master Shedims option to summon further vanguards of this type into our plane???
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Crimsondude on <06-08-13/1551:15>
Those that were already around continue to exist, but the Astral Gateway power doesn't work for Master Shedim to summon more of them.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <06-08-13/1602:08>
Ahh...so no more Astral Gateway to Shedim metaplane? Thats sad  :'( it was my favourite "cinematics" and vilain. Well since team participates on Artifacts campaign, and since they have personal grudge against Shedims since their first run, surviving Unbound they may consider their victory. Good to know. Thx for info
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Bull on <06-08-13/1836:22>
Note that just because the doorways sealed up, doesn't mean they're gone.  They're just a bit more rare.

Bull
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <06-08-13/1838:05>
Note that just because the doorways sealed up, doesn't mean they're gone.  They're just a bit more rare.

Bull

I understand. There is still a few of them to hunt. In Kongo, perhaps. Or some undead pirates... ;)
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Crimsondude on <06-08-13/1904:54>
Or Ibn Eisa, who is still lurking on the shadows and has been eerily silent.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <06-08-13/1945:18>
Yep.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: CanRay on <06-08-13/2130:34>
Note that just because the doorways sealed up, doesn't mean they're gone.  They're just a bit more rare.

Bull
I like 'em Medium-Rare.  ;)
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: VajraSupremus on <06-08-13/2152:00>
From a scientific perspective, the Rift was pretty much the primary gate just because of how stable it was. Essentially an unbreakable Quantum Entangled portal. Now all they have go on for keeping up numbers are however they breed(if they do that is), or forcing the creation of less stable gates to bring in others.

I wonder if they do reproduce. Probably in a really grotesque fashion.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Dragonslayer on <06-08-13/2305:56>
Note that just because the doorways sealed up, doesn't mean they're gone.  They're just a bit more rare.

Bull

The Shedim are easily startled, but will be back in greater numbers.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: RHat on <06-08-13/2311:00>
Actually, my read on it is that with the Rift closed it is presently utterly impossible (without some serious goings on to change circumstances) to get to their home metaplane from Earth at all.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Dragonslayer on <06-09-13/0126:30>
It's a sad day when a classic Star Wars quote goes unnoticed.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Black on <06-09-13/0128:05>
Actually, my read on it is that with the Rift closed it is presently utterly impossible (without some serious goings on to change circumstances) to get to their home metaplane from Earth at all.
I also believe that this is the case.  That said, you can never predict what the future may hold...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Bull on <06-09-13/0130:04>
There are always exceptions. There's an artifact one of the Season 4 Missions that, when used in the proper way at the proper time, opens a gateway to the Shedim's home plane. It's entirely possible there are other such artifacts in existance.

However, they can;t travel freely anymore, and it will be very rare and unusual if any more show up (if at all).
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Boomstick on <06-09-13/1126:52>
I suggest that we open another thread for this Shedim topic, which is not really related to Sybil virus. Actually, there would be a lot to say about the things noticed before about ADA and the difference engine. And that folk with a mantis profile photo on his twitter. But my knowledge is pretty limited regarding recent events.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: CanRay on <06-09-13/1519:02>
So, when is Zuul and Vinz Clortho showing up?  ;D
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <06-09-13/1650:47>
So, when is Zuul and Vinz Clortho showing up?  ;D

They are already here
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Boomstick on <06-22-13/2220:34>
Then there's Sybil, which we still don't have a good grasp on... you know what, forget the data jack... i'll use goggles and bio-ware.
We don't know if bioware implantation use nanotech, you know. That could be in some body areas;) So maybe no implanted character is safe.
It it uses nano tech it would the pink goo kind which can't be reprogrammed. So unless it's in the nanites from the get go you should be safe.
Muhuhahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

New hint about that or just something to stress us out?;) I guess I would not take the chance.
As I said there, For the nanite part, we don't know if they act directly, through their programming, in which case Damien is right, or as a relay for something else. Remember, a little things are not working in conventional ways here.
Sometimes it feels like the nanites could be the medichlorians the Sybil needs to express its force. Again, that's gonna be nasty.

And they seems to take a great pleasure to what the reveal's gonna be. I guess a lot of players won't;)
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: CanRay on <06-22-13/2257:57>
And they seems to take a great pleasure to what the reveal's gonna be. I guess a lot of players won't ;)
There's gotta be SOME perks to the job.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Boomstick on <06-22-13/2339:32>
Wish you to enjoy it well. The storm is coming (and I guess you will hear a general Oh Drek the day of the great reveal)
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Longshot23 on <06-23-13/1226:18>
Just to add some possible additional fuel for speculation:

I was re-reading Conspiracy Theories, and got to Snopes' report on the IOND. Three IOND/MIT&M professors apparently were trying to make "mystical copies" of people. Perhaps a free spirit got hold of at least part of the method, and its efforts play a part in the Sybil effects.

The report doesn't say more than the professors were fired.  Nothing about their legal status, what happened to the . . . specimens, or where the research is now. Also it doesn't say when this happened.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Mirikon on <06-23-13/1436:28>
I'm going to have to go with "highly unlikely" for that scenario, Longshot. This seems to clearly have a tech (specifically nanotech) angle to it, which runs counter to any magical theories, since magic and tech don't mix. Not unless some core elements of the setting have been redone. Also, the fact that this kind of thing is happening outside the gaiasphere as well would nix a magical connection.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Boomstick on <06-23-13/1442:23>
Are You thinking about Mars for "outside the Gaiasphere", Mirikon?
Did not they create a limited manasphere? And also, are we sure it was the Sybil up there and not something else?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Mirikon on <06-23-13/1450:02>
Are You thinking about Mars for "outside the Gaiasphere", Mirikon?
Did not they create a limited manasphere? And also, are we sure it was the Sybil up there and not something else?
The symptoms fit. Unless there are two separate but nearly identical 'strains' going at the same time (even less likely than the magical angle at this point), it is best to work under the assumption that what happened in Gagarin Base is Sybil. And anything magical at less than Great Dragon strength would have been wiped out by the trek from Earth to Mars. Given that, and the fact that most of Lanier's reports focused on nanotech, Lanier at least is convinced there's a nanotech angle. The Phoenix thing still can fall under the tech angle, given that there are plenty of Awakened types who ruin their Talent to grab ware as a shortcut to power. Given that SEARCH wanted Fastjack to get some new ware, and that either getting new ware or exposure to infected systems seems to be the key factor, the magical angle is pretty much dead.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Boomstick on <06-23-13/1552:47>
No need to be much convinced, just to rule out the points I thought about after LongShot's post.
Thank you^^

Still wonder if we have seen something as a project SEARCH which could be a part of something, in case Sybil could not be as spread out as we suppose it to be. Or there could be a few major entities taking up "choice targets" like Jack, and a lot of minor shooting at random fitting targets?

If we suppose that it comes from above, then, has it been created above, or lifted up then changed, or lifted up but already that dangerous and wanting to avenge from the experiment performed on it on Mars?
That could give us leads about their motivations?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: VajraSupremus on <06-23-13/1847:56>
It is glaringly obvious the only non-mundane threat that could have a hand in this are the Dissonants.

Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: RHat on <06-23-13/2040:58>
It is glaringly obvious the only non-mundane threat that could have a hand in this are the Dissonants.

Which raises the question of whether it fits the style of any known Dissonant strain...  It's actually chillingly suitable to the Cyberdarwinist agenda, come to think of it.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: VajraSupremus on <06-23-13/2052:46>
I see that and also equal parts The Sublime. Turn all able hosts into meatspace chattle to then direct in places they would not or could not be.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: DamienHollow on <06-24-13/1946:11>
I'm going to have to go with "highly unlikely" for that scenario, Longshot. This seems to clearly have a tech (specifically nanotech) angle to it, which runs counter to any magical theories, since magic and tech don't mix. Not unless some core elements of the setting have been redone. Also, the fact that this kind of thing is happening outside the gaiasphere as well would nix a magical connection.

I vaguely remember something about cyber-zombie-mages.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: DamienHollow on <06-24-13/1952:20>
What if it is a rampant Pink Goo scenario? Only instead of the eat everything kind of problem we have a sort of organic (near-cell like) nanite that's going all slime mold on us... Okay, that made no sense. What I'm proposing is that we have an organic threat akin to a bacteria that infect a host then become a multi-celled organism with their own agenda. Only instead of gathering into a pile of slime, they fuse with the host. This way they can integrate with the body and any cyber-ware on a case by case basses... What if Type-O genetics are somehow involved?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Boomstick on <06-25-13/1552:54>
I vaguely remember something about cyber-zombie-mages.
Well, I don't remember but I think that any cyberzombie has a magic of 1. I don't think they can initiate or still maintain magical or technomantic power. I should look at augmentations, I know pretty well this chapter. But AFMB
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <06-25-13/1726:21>
What if it is a rampant Pink Goo scenario? Only instead of the eat everything kind of problem we have a sort of organic (near-cell like) nanite that's going all slime mold on us... Okay, that made no sense. What I'm proposing is that we have an organic threat akin to a bacteria that infect a host then become a multi-celled organism with their own agenda. Only instead of gathering into a pile of slime, they fuse with the host. This way they can integrate with the body and any cyber-ware on a case by case basses... What if Type-O genetics are somehow involved?

Little quote Ive missed before:
Quote from: Corporate Guide, p. 106
Dr. Sharon stopped before a door marked SJT958.
Unlocking the door with an old-fashioned key, she opened it.
“We are cultivating autonomous biological control systems.
‘Wetware.’
Unfortunately, growing biological masses that
can keep pace with non-organic computational systems has
been difficult to say the least. This is why we’re pursuing other
avenues of research.”

Here it is. MCT once again?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Boomstick on <06-25-13/1758:59>
I do remember of reading wetware again in Augmentation. Or Corporate enclaves, about Neo Tokyo. I know because i looked quite extensively for a good translation of the term for my players.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Longshot23 on <06-27-13/1248:38>
Okay, so is the Sybil 'virus' the result of someone picking up the Saeletra reference and running with it?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Michael Chandra on <06-27-13/1605:09>
Oh gods no I hope not. I'm still putting money on Saeletra blocking nukes.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Boomstick on <06-27-13/1704:37>
Okay, so is the Sybil 'virus' the result of someone picking up the Saeletra reference and running with it?
How would it be? What are you implying actually?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: VajraSupremus on <06-27-13/1839:21>
Memetics? Or an unknown force guiding and shaping the world from the Awakening beyond?

Does this line of thinking have anything to do with FJ catching that message?
Title: Re:
Post by: Sichr on <06-27-13/2156:24>
Saletera?
Title: Re:
Post by: DamienHollow on <06-28-13/0318:49>
Saletera?

An unknown, unidentified entity who on December 24, 2011 sent a single message to the Shadowland BBS...
         "Good morning world. Welcome back. Play nice." - Saeletra

And unfortunately that's all she wrote. No one has seen or heard from her since. Of course this is assuming anyone would have a clue who or what she was. Might not even be a she, could be a him, or an it... or a yet to be defined...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Longshot23 on <06-28-13/0607:09>
Okay, so is the Sybil 'virus' the result of someone picking up the Saeletra reference and running with it?
How would it be? What are you implying actually?

More of a question for the writers than anything else. Apparently, the original intent behind the posting is lost - so I'm just wondering if it's been co-opted for the Sybil 'virus' metaplot.
Title: Re:
Post by: Malathis on <06-28-13/1320:56>
Saletera?

An unknown, unidentified entity who on December 24, 2011 sent a single message to the Shadowland BBS...
         "Good morning world. Welcome back. Play nice." - Saeletra

And unfortunately that's all she wrote. No one has seen or heard from her since. Of course this is assuming anyone would have a clue who or what she was. Might not even be a she, could be a him, or an it... or a yet to be defined...

The greatest Red Herring ever?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: DamienHollow on <06-28-13/1807:36>
I always figured it was just forgotten by the developers and ret cond as a sarcastic dragon or some such thing.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: carmachu on <06-28-13/2001:24>
Now I'll admit that my shadowrun history is a bit hazy, but I can swear this sounds familiar, inso much that wasn't there a story somewhere where folks use to share and swap bodies via the matrix? I recall a guy sharing taking over a woman's body for a night of fun and she woke up to her place a wreck with marshmellows and such.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: DamienHollow on <06-28-13/2112:46>
Now I'll admit that my shadowrun history is a bit hazy, but I can swear this sounds familiar, inso much that wasn't there a story somewhere where folks use to share and swap bodies via the matrix? I recall a guy sharing taking over a woman's body for a night of fun and she woke up to her place a wreck with marshmellows and such.
When are the devs just going to suck it up and make a full on homage to Ghost in the Shell...? Awe crap... What if Sybil is a form of Ghost Hacking? Did you have to go that far trying to make the hacker "combat" capable? By the way, whose with me on changing the phrase to geek the hacker?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Mirikon on <06-28-13/2118:09>
Now I'll admit that my shadowrun history is a bit hazy, but I can swear this sounds familiar, inso much that wasn't there a story somewhere where folks use to share and swap bodies via the matrix? I recall a guy sharing taking over a woman's body for a night of fun and she woke up to her place a wreck with marshmellows and such.
Well, there's the Proteus board, which are basically metahuman biodrones for whoever the real master is behind the scenes, but other than that, the only way to go swapping bodies would be if two people were using rigged anthroform drones, or using magic, such as possession spirits or artifacts with crazy powers.

However, stories like what you are talking about do come up in Ghost in the Shell (where again, there are full-body cyborgs who sometimes switch bodies, but not via the matrix). The idea of something trying to take over and rewrite your consciousness via the computer has been done several times in cyberpunk and anime.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: carmachu on <06-28-13/2205:37>

Well, there's the Proteus board, which are basically metahuman biodrones for whoever the real master is behind the scenes, but other than that, the only way to go swapping bodies would be if two people were using rigged anthroform drones, or using magic, such as possession spirits or artifacts with crazy powers.

However, stories like what you are talking about do come up in Ghost in the Shell (where again, there are full-body cyborgs who sometimes switch bodies, but not via the matrix). The idea of something trying to take over and rewrite your consciousness via the computer has been done several times in cyberpunk and anime.
No, wasn't ghost in the shell or any other items in anime(because I don't watch any of that stuff). Now I'm going to have to go book by book and find it again.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Red Canti on <06-30-13/1753:28>
I wonder if they found the portal to Hell yet, and if one lone Marine has to deal with it?
His cause is just. His will is strong and his gun is very, very large.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <07-01-13/1547:49>
Now I'll admit that my shadowrun history is a bit hazy, but I can swear this sounds familiar, inso much that wasn't there a story somewhere where folks use to share and swap bodies via the matrix? I recall a guy sharing taking over a woman's body for a night of fun and she woke up to her place a wreck with marshmellows and such.
Well, there's the Proteus board, which are basically metahuman biodrones for whoever the real master is behind the scenes, but other than that, the only way to go swapping bodies would be if two people were using rigged anthroform drones, or using magic, such as possession spirits or artifacts with crazy powers.

However, stories like what you are talking about do come up in Ghost in the Shell (where again, there are full-body cyborgs who sometimes switch bodies, but not via the matrix). The idea of something trying to take over and rewrite your consciousness via the computer has been done several times in cyberpunk and anime.

AFAI it was matrix action, well it was wired download/upload transfer, not wireless...
IMO quite a lot of stuff in GItS was hardwired, for serious cyberbrain hacking standard telephone booth was used etc. Motoko was jacking in all the time etc...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Lysanderz on <07-01-13/2202:58>
Funny because a Male version of Motoko is my first big 5th edition project to continue my trend of "Famous People as Shadowrunners"

After all, she disappears after the 2nd Gig.
Title: Re: new game
Post by: Sichr on <07-03-13/1836:50>
...and came back in SSS as multi-body character.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: DamienHollow on <07-03-13/2051:25>
There's a reason she's on my top 10 most hated characters list, right along side of superman and Alucard from Hellsing.
 I think at this point our biggest question is... "What is it's method of action?" If we can figure out how it affects the body then we may know what it is. Because it implied that it wanted a nano hive we can safely say that whatever it is it can hijack cyber-ware directly. This would require the ability to interface with it in either the same manner as another computer/brain or to directly alter it by acting like a nanite and physically rewiring it.
Title: Re: new game
Post by: Sichr on <07-04-13/0040:59>
Nano plots are quite popular in my games since DE: Invisible war. I'll have lot of fun in my games :)
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Basic on <07-18-13/1119:06>
What if this has to do with the program JackBNimble or a different form of it. Being no one knows what happened to it.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Hellion on <07-18-13/2014:58>
What if this has to do with the program JackBNimble or a different form of it. Being no one knows what happened to it.

That's actually a really good thought, it certainly seems to be similar in its operation, or at least what i know about the JackBNimble program.
Title: Re: new game
Post by: Sichr on <07-19-13/0526:48>
Can you point me to this jackBNimble? I fail to recall anything about it.
Title: Re: new game
Post by: Malathis on <07-19-13/1005:37>
Can you point me to this jackBNimble? I fail to recall anything about it.

iirc, JackBNimble was a program given to the Captain via the Big D's will, it went off durring System Failure and "Saved" people. I'm not sure where any other references to the program may be.
Title: Re: new game
Post by: RelentlessImp on <07-19-13/1054:03>
Can you point me to this jackBNimble? I fail to recall anything about it.

iirc, JackBNimble was a program given to the Captain via the Big D's will, it went off durring System Failure and "Saved" people. I'm not sure where any other references to the program may be.

Here (http://danvolodar.ru/ancientfiles/Artifex.htm#24a).
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: SoyCaf on <07-20-13/2131:57>
Body hijacking virus? Made by something(s) inhuman that want into the real world?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <07-21-13/0649:46>
Since the "We Are Free" message left on the walls by those possibly infected, I can pretty much see connection to the Message Lanier was sent by Ace (in building a case chapter in Stormfront)
Title: Re: new game
Post by: Basic on <07-21-13/1019:43>
Can you point me to this jackBNimble? I fail to recall anything about it.

The JackBNimble program was bequeathed to Captain Chaos by Dunkelzahn when he died, and the Captain never managed to break the encryption on the file. In 2065, the assault of the Jormungand worm shredded the encryption on the file and caused it to activate, "saving" Captain Chaos and others who were dying in the Matrix. The current whereabouts of JackBNimble are unknown.
As a program, JackBNimble has no physical representation. In the Matrix, it has only been seen as a shadow. The JackBNimble program appears to be at least as complicated as a semi-autonomous knowbot, and appears to be able to "save" deckers as files - which, under certain circumstances, can appear to "wake up."

Now lets say just for a moment that some how this program got infected by a virus. With it's ability to pull peoples minds from there bodies. What if it does this but also now has the ability to put something in a body from the matrix ?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Hellion on <07-21-13/1630:29>
Can you point me to this jackBNimble? I fail to recall anything about it.

The JackBNimble program was bequeathed to Captain Chaos by Dunkelzahn when he died, and the Captain never managed to break the encryption on the file. In 2065, the assault of the Jormungand worm shredded the encryption on the file and caused it to activate, "saving" Captain Chaos and others who were dying in the Matrix. The current whereabouts of JackBNimble are unknown.
As a program, JackBNimble has no physical representation. In the Matrix, it has only been seen as a shadow. The JackBNimble program appears to be at least as complicated as a semi-autonomous knowbot, and appears to be able to "save" deckers as files - which, under certain circumstances, can appear to "wake up."

Now lets say just for a moment that some how this program got infected by a virus. With it's ability to pull peoples minds from there bodies. What if it does this but also now has the ability to put something in a body from the matrix ?

As far as I understood it, most ports are configured for two way traffic so if you can download you should be able to upload... The other point it that if you can forcibly "save" a personality, I'm sure you can also replace it... It's something that would have to be so your surviving test subjects don't give you away.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Lysanderz on <08-02-13/1412:08>
Since we're talking about nanotechnology and D's will, how about this one:


To the corporations and governments of the world, I leave the formula for an infant vaccination that should be administered to all children born after 31 October 2060.


I have no idea if anything from this has been resolved, but it seems like a potential thing to me.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Deltaomega on <08-02-13/1457:20>
Since we're talking about nanotechnology and D's will, how about this one:


To the corporations and governments of the world, I leave the formula for an infant vaccination that should be administered to all children born after 31 October 2060.


I have no idea if anything from this has been resolved, but it seems like a potential thing to me.

I don't think it's likely. Guys like Fastjack that are infected were around long before the 2060 date.

As for speculation from my end. I suspect someone is trying to shove E-Ghosts into people. Or at the very least their personalities.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Basic on <08-02-13/1534:16>
Did we let one techomancer get to powerful ?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Lysanderz on <08-02-13/2103:55>
This is so far beyond Puck, if that is who you are hinting at Basic.

And the fact that Jack was there BEFORE the beginning date could explain why he has the virus. Everyone before that date would be at risk if they've undergone whatever treatments tend to trigger it.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Chrona on <08-03-13/2321:12>
I just had a sort of epiphany moment while thinking about the 2050s and Shadowrun 4th Ed missions when Mecurial sprung to my mind.

Am I correct that I remember reading about her having a dis-associative personality disorder. And shes well known for her 'ware. Maybe it wasn't just BTLs.

Or the Sybil Virus is spawned from BTL code.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Mirikon on <08-07-13/1448:54>
AFAIK, Mercurial's split personalities happened from long term BTL abuse (as well as a few personal tragedies). While it is possible that Sybil originated from BTL code somewhere, I don't think it would be connected to Maria Mercurial, or we would have heard about it a long time go. Afterall, there's been beetleheads in the shadows for decades now, and this is clearly different from anything we've seen to this point. Now, if dissonant sprites got hold of BTL code to try and become inhabitation sprites...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Dragonslayer on <08-07-13/1455:45>
I don't know if I've posted this before or not, but...

...having read Stormfront, I get the nagging suspicion that someone let Captain Chaos out of his box, and he's rather pissed at what's happen in his absence.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Marzhin on <08-07-13/1553:41>
I don't know if I've posted this before or not, but...

...having read Stormfront, I get the nagging suspicion that someone let Captain Chaos out of his box, and he's rather pissed at what's happen in his absence.

What makes you think that?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Eremitic Fool on <08-07-13/1556:35>
I've always figured Cap'n Chaos and the e-ghost brigade would eventually make a comeback. Would make some sense with the personality changes, one mind with many consciousnesses. It would also add another degree of danger, never knowing who you might bring back from the Matrix.

In a semi-related note, is Eliohann still a veggie hooked up to life support? I remember he and Celedyr had a close relationship, and it wouldn't surprise me if the techno-wyrm has been working on a way to bring him back.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Chrona on <08-07-13/1639:49>
AFAIK, Mercurial's split personalities happened from long term BTL abuse (as well as a few personal tragedies). While it is possible that Sybil originated from BTL code somewhere, I don't think it would be connected to Maria Mercurial, or we would have heard about it a long time go. Afterall, there's been beetleheads in the shadows for decades now, and this is clearly different from anything we've seen to this point. Now, if dissonant sprites got hold of BTL code to try and become inhabitation sprites...
Yeah like i said I know it was known to be from BTL abuse but its the nearest thing we have pre-sybil so i just thought it might be similar.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Mirikon on <08-07-13/1647:50>
Actually, the closest thing I've seen to what Sybil seems to be doing is Insect Spirits inhabiting their host. At least originally, the bugs required their host to be prepped for them, and took some time to fully assert control, during which time the victim was 'coccooned'. If we look at what Sybil is doing, the process of 'overwriting' the host seems similar to how Inhabitation works. And some threats from the darker corners of the Resonance Realms would be fun.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Chrona on <08-07-13/1659:34>
Ive read storm front but unless there's info in some book ive not read, or a fiction in 5th ed core ive not gotten to yet that tells us more, most of our info comes from how its effected Fastjack. While Search definitely seems to be trying to overwrite him, we dont know for certain it has the other infected, it might be acting differently. So I was just looking for characters with disassociative personalities all ready.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: RHat on <08-07-13/1749:48>
Ive read storm front but unless there's info in some book ive not read, or a fiction in 5th ed core ive not gotten to yet that tells us more, most of our info comes from how its effected Fastjack. While Search definitely seems to be trying to overwrite him, we dont know for certain it has the other infected, it might be acting differently. So I was just looking for characters with disassociative personalities all ready.

There are a lot of inferences to be made from Lanier's datadump.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Chrona on <08-07-13/1757:33>
There are a lot of inferences to be made from Lanier's datadump.

I guess i didn't infer as much as others, or I've forgotten. id ask what the main points are but i don't want to waste anyone's time.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Typtrich on <08-08-13/0031:33>
I wonder if its possible that this is linked to Horrors?

The reason I say this is because it occurs to me that those who know of horrors have been focusing on stopping horrors manifesting into this world through the magical realms, however, it seems pretty plain to me that while resonance =//= magical they are equivalent, both seem to be a manifestation of will manipulating the physical world and from the fact that they are mutually exclusive and seem to follow very similar game rules they likely are at some proto-level the same thing.

If this is true then the Horrors are very likely to be able  to use resonance to bridge to this world. The most worrying thing (beyond them succeeding) is absolutely no one is watching for it or even considers it a possibility.

Also, if increased magical activity makes bridging easier what about matrix (resonance) activity?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Crimsondude on <08-08-13/0049:01>
D:
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Dragonslayer on <08-08-13/0322:57>
I don't know if I've posted this before or not, but...

...having read Stormfront, I get the nagging suspicion that someone let Captain Chaos out of his box, and he's rather pissed at what's happen in his absence.

What makes you think that?

Sorry, meant to respond to this sooner.

The interaction between FastJack and his hitch hiker seemed, to me at least, personal.  It wanted FastJack to know that it was responsible for what had been happening to him, and what was going to happen.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: DamienHollow on <08-08-13/0324:44>
what did he do to make the Ct. so mad? I thought CC handed it over to Fast Jack.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Dragonslayer on <08-08-13/0337:41>
Except CC was all about free source information, anyone was welcome, not matter who you were.  Hell, Bid D and Hestaby were poster from time to time during CC's running of his board.

Fastjack went the opposite direction, info was for the few and trusted, and the masses got what said members decided they could have.  It was a distortion of what CC wanted, and if he started roaming the net again, he might have taken issue with that.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: DamienHollow on <08-08-13/0358:29>
So Fast jack tried to make it "secure" (not like the AAA aren't doing that in spades already and messing with our lives in the process.) I liked CC's approach.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Lysanderz on <08-08-13/0948:05>
Annnnnnnnnd now I have an awesome plot hook for a future game.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <08-09-13/0312:23>
D:
*headsmack*  Further and further afield ...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: calaen on <08-22-13/0105:46>
Right, lets take a moment to consider what we know.

Fastjack and Riser were most likely infected when they both broke into a facility owned by Neonet.  A tech deadzone - no wireless for miles.

From this, we can learn several things.  The first of which, is a commonality in time of infection, suggesting common cause - both of them have cyberware that would allow a direct interface, and most cyberware that they would have had?  This cyberware would have been installed utilizing nanotech to make the delicate neural connections, since the metahuman brain and neural system is quite complex and delicate.  All rehashes of what we already knew.

The second thing we learn from this statement, is that Neonet knew that there was a serious security problem here.  'A tech deadzone, no wireless for miles.'  This screams at me.  Neonet is known for its work with wireless and the matrix, and no wireless in the vicinity of any of their holdings tells me that they had reason.  Under normal circumstances, this would be a security measure intended to keep deckers from sitting in the wireless cafe and casually breaking in.  I however, suspect that this was a countermeasure not intended to keep people out, but rather, to keep artificial intelligences and E-ghosts in.  All pretty obvious.

Now, lets do some conjecture with that.  You want to keep an AI in,  You want to keep an E-ghost in.  There are two possible reasons for this, the first being that you wish to experiment on them, as Celedyr (if I recall correctly, the dragon has a lot to do with Neonet) was working on it.  But this leads us to the next piece of information - the databanks of this place are described as massive, which suggests a lot of storage required.

If you're working with experimental subjects... particularly those that are not only intelligent but potentially dangerous, and you have to access them regularly?  You seperate them.  You lock them down individually to minimize the threat they represent - and you do so in such a way that they have hardware walls between them, not partitions and firewalls.

I can only conclude the following:  These AI and E-ghosts had been deemed criminals, or classified as dangerous, and thus needed to be contained.  At this point, the only thing one can expect is that you would construct a wireless facility, cram them into storage, and not talk a lot about it.  They can't do damage if they can't get out, hence the wireless, and if they damage the systems they are in, they only hurt themselves.  Killing the AIs would be a waste, as they can, at this point, be extracted and used as test subjects at a later date.

Next thing we have is a clue, given to us by ol' SEARCH himself.  He is an algorithm, or started as such - designed to be adaptive, to self educate, and given his name as such.  "SELF EDUCATING AUTONOMOUS REASONING COMBAT HACKING"  Artificial intelligences aren't designed or created - they are born, spontaneously created when an agent or a program evolves.  Some are simple, even animalistic.  Others, like SEARCH, much less so, but they occur spontaneously, and their personalities may very well be dictated by their original functions.  He also further indicated his origins when he indicated that FastJack was an intruder in the matrix - as though SEARCH himself is not... as though he is a creature of the matrix, which suggests either an AI, or a technomancer... but a technomancer would have no need of Jack's body... certainly no desire for a body that lacks technomantic abilities, and especially no desire for a body that is a senior citizen.  Given that piece of information, and the intellect of the AI, why go after Jack, unless you were trapped within him (not willing to discount the possibility.)

FastJack is a very intelligent man.  I do not believe that it would be difficult to count him as a genius, in multiple areas.  He has 'superior hardware' in that skull of his.  I would hazard Riser also has above average IQ.  Although it is again conjecture, I would make a guess that with rare exception, those infected are individuals functioning at higher than average intellectual levels.

Back to my original statement about Search: Search was designed for a criminal function.  He is by his nature unstable and dangerous.  He will grow within the original parameters of his programming.

The second clue is much less obvious, but still there, if you know where to look.  Mindstorm Neurotechnologies.  It is simultaneously an attempt at misdirection, and a strike intended for the heart.  It is not unreasonable to believe that criminal AIs and E-ghosts, given time, even limited access to a body, would create a means to their end - and until stormfront, I had never heard of Mindstorm Neurotechnologies... further, large Nuyen Transfers were made to "Riser" - thus indicating that the AIs have a desire for wealth.  If that wealth was kept secret, it could be put to purpose.

This means may very well be Mindstorm.  I tend to believe that the genewipe is actually a means to assert themselves as individuals within the world - Tabula Rasa: A blank slate.  I will however concede that as conjecture, as it may very well set things up to make it easier for them.  But why the nanohive?  If this virus perpetuates itself through nanoware, that means that either a subject must continually dose themselves with nanoware, as it washes out of the body over time, or, there must be a nanohive.

This means that those infected should, in theory, become uninfected after a relatively short time.  Nanoware is likely an infection vector, but it is likely not the only means by which this problem perpetuates itself.  Even a single missed treatment would be a cure for the problem, otherwise - and I find it improbable that the infected... those who have been so infected for several years, have not missed at least one treatment in that time.

Ah, but thats the thing.  (Please forgive my meandering thought process here) half the stuff on the planet is constructed of nanotech, and nanotech has been malfunctioning lately.  But these are artificial intelligences, and if they're smart enough to hijack bodies, why would they glitch a potential means of infection vector, something so seemingly innocent as a T-shirt?

Except that they didn't glitch the T-shirts, did they?  You wear those on your body.  Direct physical contact, chance for inhalation vector infection, skin contact infection, even oral ingestion when someone absently chews on a T-shirt, or other article of clothing.  I'd even be willing to make a bet that things that are consumed or worn on the body or otherwise have close contact (like a nanofax made toothbrush, perhaps?) are the only items being reliably constructed.

I don't know about you, but I think maybe it is time for a run on Mindstorm.

Now that I think on it, if I were a mess of AIs and E-ghosts that are hijacking bodies?  I would be really quiet anywhere my infection vector (theoretically nanoware)) might be concerned... and real noisy somewhere else.  Like if I had influence over nanoware, but that wasn't my infection vector, and I wanted to trick someone like me, I would make exceptions for things that would make sense as infection vectors, such as T-shirts, and let them go off without a hitch, bit glitch everything else.  Make a big flash and noise, get everyone looking at everything that doesn't matter to me (its a lot like politics) so I can go about my business uninterrupted, unless the glitches were side effects, in which case, I'd be making efforts to leave no discernible patterns, focusing so that glitches effect my infection vectors less, but not completely removing them.  Metahuman pattern recognition can be played against metahumans, it is both a powerful tool in our arsenal, and a powerful weakness to those who know how to exploit it.

Then again, perhaps its not something the AIs and Metasapients are doing to the nanotech.  Perhaps someone actively working against them is messing with the nanotech to reduce the infection vector.  The more I look at it through a paranoid microscope, the more I begin to suspect that there are more players at the table than I thought were dealt to.  I hate a card game where you can't see the other players, gives me the feeling everyone is cheating.

Ugh, I sound like Plan9.

... only thing I know for certain, is its time for a run on Mindstorm.  The answer is in the names.

Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: RHat on <08-22-13/0143:10>
If it's something like Inhabitation Sprites, the idea that one body isn't as good as any other might be largely foreign to them - or they might even mistake mental capability for physical capability.  Or it could just be targets of opportunity.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Crimsondude on <08-22-13/0357:29>
Celedyr could have put the Albuquerque lab anywhere in the world. Why'd he pick a bunch of caves that were probably controlled by back-to-nature magicians that he had developed a relationship with in mountains that are very sacred to the locals?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: RHat on <08-22-13/0417:53>
Free security that doesn't rely on electronic means (which would be horribly unreliable at best with any of the theories that have been tossed around)?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <08-22-13/0720:59>
Celedyr could have put the Albuquerque lab anywhere in the world. Why'd he pick a bunch of caves that were probably controlled by back-to-nature magicians that he had developed a relationship with in mountains that are very sacred to the locals?

why anyone else would? Alyo he is in good possition to deal with such people..
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Mirikon on <08-22-13/0756:08>
Celedyr could have put the Albuquerque lab anywhere in the world. Why'd he pick a bunch of caves that were probably controlled by back-to-nature magicians that he had developed a relationship with in mountains that are very sacred to the locals?
As RHat said, free security. Putting guards at a lab adds security. Putting the lab off the Matrix adds security. Putting the lab in a dead-zone, tech-wise, adds security. Having the area surrounded by friendly locals who view the area as sacred, and are likely to be on the lookout for any intruders adds security. Put all that together, and you have a very secure site, without having to go to the extremes of an MCT zero zone (which draws attention).

Plus, since this is obviously something involved in the matrix, there are few better places for a controlled test lab than a facility that is completely cut off from the matrix. Much like how research on viruses always takes place in a sterile environment.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: calaen on <08-22-13/1731:02>
You know, they did put a satlink into the system to give Jack access.  Security breach.... I feel like a lot of escapes must have been made during that time.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <10-03-13/0214:20>
Right, lets take a moment to consider what we know.

Fastjack and Riser were most likely infected when they both broke into a facility owned by Neonet.  A tech deadzone - no wireless for miles.

From this, we can learn several things.  The first of which, is a commonality in time of infection, suggesting common cause - both of them have cyberware that would allow a direct interface, and most cyberware that they would have had?  This cyberware would have been installed utilizing nanotech to make the delicate neural connections, since the metahuman brain and neural system is quite complex and delicate.  All rehashes of what we already knew.

The second thing we learn from this statement, is that Neonet knew that there was a serious security problem here.  'A tech deadzone, no wireless for miles.'  This screams at me.  Neonet is known for its work with wireless and the matrix, and no wireless in the vicinity of any of their holdings tells me that they had reason.  Under normal circumstances, this would be a security measure intended to keep deckers from sitting in the wireless cafe and casually breaking in.  I however, suspect that this was a countermeasure not intended to keep people out, but rather, to keep artificial intelligences and E-ghosts in.  All pretty obvious.

Now, lets do some conjecture with that.  You want to keep an AI in,  You want to keep an E-ghost in.  There are two possible reasons for this, the first being that you wish to experiment on them, as Celedyr (if I recall correctly, the dragon has a lot to do with Neonet) was working on it.  But this leads us to the next piece of information - the databanks of this place are described as massive, which suggests a lot of storage required.

If you're working with experimental subjects... particularly those that are not only intelligent but potentially dangerous, and you have to access them regularly?  You seperate them.  You lock them down individually to minimize the threat they represent - and you do so in such a way that they have hardware walls between them, not partitions and firewalls.

I can only conclude the following:  These AI and E-ghosts had been deemed criminals, or classified as dangerous, and thus needed to be contained.  At this point, the only thing one can expect is that you would construct a wireless facility, cram them into storage, and not talk a lot about it.  They can't do damage if they can't get out, hence the wireless, and if they damage the systems they are in, they only hurt themselves.  Killing the AIs would be a waste, as they can, at this point, be extracted and used as test subjects at a later date.

Next thing we have is a clue, given to us by ol' SEARCH himself.  He is an algorithm, or started as such - designed to be adaptive, to self educate, and given his name as such.  "SELF EDUCATING AUTONOMOUS REASONING COMBAT HACKING"  Artificial intelligences aren't designed or created - they are born, spontaneously created when an agent or a program evolves.  Some are simple, even animalistic.  Others, like SEARCH, much less so, but they occur spontaneously, and their personalities may very well be dictated by their original functions.  He also further indicated his origins when he indicated that FastJack was an intruder in the matrix - as though SEARCH himself is not... as though he is a creature of the matrix, which suggests either an AI, or a technomancer... but a technomancer would have no need of Jack's body... certainly no desire for a body that lacks technomantic abilities, and especially no desire for a body that is a senior citizen.  Given that piece of information, and the intellect of the AI, why go after Jack, unless you were trapped within him (not willing to discount the possibility.)

FastJack is a very intelligent man.  I do not believe that it would be difficult to count him as a genius, in multiple areas.  He has 'superior hardware' in that skull of his.  I would hazard Riser also has above average IQ.  Although it is again conjecture, I would make a guess that with rare exception, those infected are individuals functioning at higher than average intellectual levels.

Back to my original statement about Search: Search was designed for a criminal function.  He is by his nature unstable and dangerous.  He will grow within the original parameters of his programming.

The second clue is much less obvious, but still there, if you know where to look.  Mindstorm Neurotechnologies.  It is simultaneously an attempt at misdirection, and a strike intended for the heart.  It is not unreasonable to believe that criminal AIs and E-ghosts, given time, even limited access to a body, would create a means to their end - and until stormfront, I had never heard of Mindstorm Neurotechnologies... further, large Nuyen Transfers were made to "Riser" - thus indicating that the AIs have a desire for wealth.  If that wealth was kept secret, it could be put to purpose.

This means may very well be Mindstorm.  I tend to believe that the genewipe is actually a means to assert themselves as individuals within the world - Tabula Rasa: A blank slate.  I will however concede that as conjecture, as it may very well set things up to make it easier for them.  But why the nanohive?  If this virus perpetuates itself through nanoware, that means that either a subject must continually dose themselves with nanoware, as it washes out of the body over time, or, there must be a nanohive.

This means that those infected should, in theory, become uninfected after a relatively short time.  Nanoware is likely an infection vector, but it is likely not the only means by which this problem perpetuates itself.  Even a single missed treatment would be a cure for the problem, otherwise - and I find it improbable that the infected... those who have been so infected for several years, have not missed at least one treatment in that time.

Ah, but thats the thing.  (Please forgive my meandering thought process here) half the stuff on the planet is constructed of nanotech, and nanotech has been malfunctioning lately.  But these are artificial intelligences, and if they're smart enough to hijack bodies, why would they glitch a potential means of infection vector, something so seemingly innocent as a T-shirt?

Except that they didn't glitch the T-shirts, did they?  You wear those on your body.  Direct physical contact, chance for inhalation vector infection, skin contact infection, even oral ingestion when someone absently chews on a T-shirt, or other article of clothing.  I'd even be willing to make a bet that things that are consumed or worn on the body or otherwise have close contact (like a nanofax made toothbrush, perhaps?) are the only items being reliably constructed.

I don't know about you, but I think maybe it is time for a run on Mindstorm.

Now that I think on it, if I were a mess of AIs and E-ghosts that are hijacking bodies?  I would be really quiet anywhere my infection vector (theoretically nanoware)) might be concerned... and real noisy somewhere else.  Like if I had influence over nanoware, but that wasn't my infection vector, and I wanted to trick someone like me, I would make exceptions for things that would make sense as infection vectors, such as T-shirts, and let them go off without a hitch, bit glitch everything else.  Make a big flash and noise, get everyone looking at everything that doesn't matter to me (its a lot like politics) so I can go about my business uninterrupted, unless the glitches were side effects, in which case, I'd be making efforts to leave no discernible patterns, focusing so that glitches effect my infection vectors less, but not completely removing them.  Metahuman pattern recognition can be played against metahumans, it is both a powerful tool in our arsenal, and a powerful weakness to those who know how to exploit it.

Then again, perhaps its not something the AIs and Metasapients are doing to the nanotech.  Perhaps someone actively working against them is messing with the nanotech to reduce the infection vector.  The more I look at it through a paranoid microscope, the more I begin to suspect that there are more players at the table than I thought were dealt to.  I hate a card game where you can't see the other players, gives me the feeling everyone is cheating.

Ugh, I sound like Plan9.

... only thing I know for certain, is its time for a run on Mindstorm.  The answer is in the names.

wow do you wander about!!!

But make some great points :thumbs up:

However, I think I am seeing a little more to this...  So allow me to add to what you have said please:

Those taken over seem to have a purpose. This means they have a plan... they are organized.... and they have a target.
And all this means they have an agenda. We are dealing with terrorists. The only question now is from "where" and "who".


Why did FastJack feel the need to arrange with Riser to terminate the team BEFORE they went in? What did Jack know? What was he trying to keep hidden? We know from the other JPers reaction that this is not FastJack's usual MO, so we now know he had an inkling of what was going on....

(away form my PDFs and DTF books.. so going off memory) that dead zone actually had an uplink station (Riser turned it on to get Jack access remember). So whatever (or whoever) was in those servers could have been remotely uploaded, and downloaded to a master facility... and (if I remember right) it was run by several Corporations... We know from earlier in Strom Front Celedyr has been ripping apart AI and other Techno-sapients for a while now trying to understand what makes them work... (I know I would be pissed)

Then there is the new matrix protocols and the reason given as to why they came about....... that hackers had damaged the basic foundation of the code to the point of unrepair..... and as an example of this, De la Mar points to the failure of nanotech (which apparently NEEDS a wireless connection to work.. who knew!)... Oh and that Nanotech? It has been in use in one form or another since 2060... only then it was used in bioware and cyberware implantation surgeries, and gene tweeking (that is from several books.... arsenal, Corp guide, 6th world almanac). basically, If you have augmentation, you have been exposed to nanotech. (hey augmented Adept, where's your God now? :P) and POSSIBLY the infection vector....

Or is it?

Thinking like those sick, twisted, insane writers Catalyst employs (God I love you guys! NEVER stop being sick twisted insane writers!!!), Nanotech is not the infection. It's the control rig. My guess is, Nanites are not failing, they are being rewritten and programmed Via the wireless matrix to act like combination of a persona fix cut out, and rewiring the brain to allow access to both movement and memory.. much like a rigger controls a drone. Now, some cyberware would enhance and speed up this process, like wired reflexes (Geek the Sammy First now?!?!?), skill wires, and other complex bio/cyberware (made with and by Nanites remember!?!) that interfaces with the nervous system or brain. Hence why Rizer and Plan 9 succumbed before Lanier and Fastjack.

I think in 'Jack's case we are dealing with a red herring... or a double whammy. I think Jack was already infected with nanites but they were dormant. AND he picked up a hitchhiker in that deadzone run. It was the combination of the two that did Jack in.

In most other cases, we have collectives of agents working together... We have Plan 9 and his masters (to whom he is selling out runners to), We have the marines and the marines wife. (That last message sounded like it was meant for the "Operator" of the Wife "Drone")

Most of the known cases of infection have been people that could strike out AT the a certain Mega Corp... this also tells me that the infection rate may actually be Targeted... or something else. and that "else" is: Mindstorm Neurotechnologies. I bet if we did a little digging (as I said, away from my books/pdfs ATM) we would find out that this little corp is a subsidiary of a certain Corp again :P AND, that they do genemods, Cyber ware, bio ware, research and installations..... with a heavy dose of Nanites. :P

And the Kicker of it all is:   <drum roll please>

Del la Mar and a few select other KNEW of this, and the terrorist plan to use nanites and the wireless matrix to reprogram and "rig" people... hence why she has crusaded for this upgrade for YEARS!!!! The Super strict protocols of the matrix, while not impeding AIs, would stop the sending of the rogue "transformation" protocol to be sent (and thus Rigging mass amounts of people.) This was their only real hope of combatting this threat... lock down and Grid off the Matrix. control the transmission, control the threat.... and this is because a physical strike on the terrorists is futile. They have no physical form... they are Techno sapients.. A.I's, free sprites, Techno'd critters, and the like.... Some faction of the techno community that has a royal hate-on for a certain corp..... and have decided that the best way to deal with them is in the meat, where a simple "off" command or a switch won't shut down their attacks and where actual damage can truly be done. (shred a server, they restore a back-up... Blow-up an arcology....)

However, I think the terrorists stumbled on to Del la Mar's true plan and decided they had to act... they triggered the "transformation" code before they were truly ready, thus limiting the spread to where they were active and limiting it's growth and "infection" rates.... This is why Nano devices and material made with/from nanites start falling apart, they are responding to the signal, and attempting to re-write a meta-human body... but there is no body.. so it turns to soup....

Or worse, Lanier, Jack, Rizer and Plan 9 are the transmitters themselves after infection.... and they themselves are leaving "dirty code" out there to infect others in their wake and not realize it.... which would mean, thanks to Jack, That the orbital defense platforms have been exposed.. and while the new matrix was in BETA code form!!! (Am I seeing a thor strike on a certain Corp in the near future??!?! Am I seeing the 6th edition ground works ALREADY being laid?!?!)



Whatever the Sybil Virus is, it is big. As in "Wreak your whole year" big.... whenever this gets dropped in our laps, expect a dramatic shake up.....










And until then, my awakened unaugmented brothers and sisters. Keep a large gun, spell, spirit, or melee weapon at hand for when that chummer with a little too much ware starts acting "off"...
And nuke in the back of the head the first chance you get... cause he will probably do the same to you!


Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Marzhin on <10-03-13/0900:40>
For those who have picked up Splintered State (nice little adventure by the way) there are some additional clues in there (though no big reveal -- as they say, this will be for another book :p).
Apparently this all started with the Megacorps' secret research about e-ghosts (as we already knew), and from there it somehow "evolved" into a virus.
They're now officially calling it "cognitive fragmentation disorder" or "the CFD virus". It is described "a technologically propagated computer virus that can directly influence human brainwaves in a manner superficially similar to simsense, changing thoughts, overwriting memories, and altering behavior patterns" or, and I really like the metaphor, "Imagine a handful of other people’s ghosts, thrown into a blender. Put the blender on puree, and then pour the finely chopped ghost slurry directly into every nook and cranny of your brain."
All this info begins with "all you need to know for now is..." so I guess there will be some new twists along the road :)
In any case, this is definitely building up to become the first big metaplot of SR5. Ain't nothing like a good old "body snatcher" scenario :)
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <10-03-13/0953:13>
Its out already?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: martinchaen on <10-03-13/1403:53>
Man, this was an interesting thread to read. Now I want to run home and finish Storm Front.

Sichr; http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=13048.msg240456#msg240456
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <10-03-13/1412:12>
+1
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Lysanderz on <10-17-13/1752:32>
Wait wait wait, Lanier is infected with it? Damn, I was hoping to use him for a table of mine. Anybody have any places where I can read the details on that?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <10-17-13/1802:17>
Wait wait wait, Lanier is infected with it? Damn, I was hoping to use him for a table of mine. Anybody have any places where I can read the details on that?

Storm Front :P


Lanier comes to Jack and lays out what he knows and that he has been probably infected for several years... but when he noticed the effects, he left the corp so as to not be able to hurt the corp, or himself in the process.... its a great read with no solution given... and sketchy details about the virus.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Mirikon on <10-17-13/2103:33>
Splintered States is the first of the adventures going into it, I believe.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <10-17-13/2232:25>
Splintered States is the first of the adventures going into it, I believe.

....

Great :(

an other book to buy and not have the time to read :(

<cries to himself>
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: CanRay on <10-18-13/0028:31>
Great :(

an other book to buy and not have the time to read :(

<cries to himself>
Trust me, it could be far, far worse.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <10-18-13/0119:36>
Great :(

an other book to buy and not have the time to read :(

<cries to himself>
Trust me, it could be far, far worse.

all the time to read..

but no money to buy?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: CanRay on <10-18-13/0129:02>
Great :(

an other book to buy and not have the time to read :(

<cries to himself>
Trust me, it could be far, far worse.
all the time to read..

but no money to buy?
Worse.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <10-18-13/0139:08>
Great :(

an other book to buy and not have the time to read :(

<cries to himself>
Trust me, it could be far, far worse.
all the time to read..

but no money to buy?
Worse.

 :o
.
..
...
....

Oh!

All the time to read, all the money to buy,


No eyes to see!!!!
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: CanRay on <10-18-13/0240:08>
Great :(

an other book to buy and not have the time to read :(

<cries to himself>
Trust me, it could be far, far worse.
all the time to read..

but no money to buy?
Worse.
:o
.
..
...
....

Oh!

All the time to read, all the money to buy,


No eyes to see!!!!
Worse still.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <10-18-13/0343:12>
eaten by mutated finches?

Lost of an island with a volleyball for a friend?

get the new book, only to have industrial bleach spilled on it, turning all the pages white?

Ex-wife wants yet MORE money?

Daughter crashed her car... AGAIN??!?!?!

ALL my condos burned down... at the same time?!?

Rabid weasels in the pantry?

Be forced to write source material for annoying fans that threaten to hurt you if you don't put out a new book soon??


Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <10-18-13/0401:34>
oh!! I know!!

Evil petting zoo bunnies coming for my soul....







<damn, now I'm hungry>
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Michael Chandra on <10-18-13/0931:42>
What corp had the corpse of that matrix dragon again? Wasn't that NeoNet?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: CanRay on <10-18-13/1526:07>
eaten by mutated finches?

Lost of an island with a volleyball for a friend?

get the new book, only to have industrial bleach spilled on it, turning all the pages white?

Ex-wife wants yet MORE money?

Daughter crashed her car... AGAIN??!?!?!

ALL my condos burned down... at the same time?!?

Rabid weasels in the pantry?

Be forced to write source material for annoying fans that threaten to hurt you if you don't put out a new book soon??
Worse.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Mirikon on <10-18-13/1611:35>
eaten by mutated finches?

Lost of an island with a volleyball for a friend?

get the new book, only to have industrial bleach spilled on it, turning all the pages white?

Ex-wife wants yet MORE money?

Daughter crashed her car... AGAIN??!?!?!

ALL my condos burned down... at the same time?!?

Rabid weasels in the pantry?

Be forced to write source material for annoying fans that threaten to hurt you if you don't put out a new book soon??
Worse.
Being forced to live in Canada and not ever get to play in a game of Shadowrun?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <10-18-13/1709:34>
eaten by mutated finches?

Lost of an island with a volleyball for a friend?

get the new book, only to have industrial bleach spilled on it, turning all the pages white?

Ex-wife wants yet MORE money?

Daughter crashed her car... AGAIN??!?!?!

ALL my condos burned down... at the same time?!?

Rabid weasels in the pantry?

Be forced to write source material for annoying fans that threaten to hurt you if you don't put out a new book soon??
Worse.
Being forced to live in Canada and not ever get to play in a game of Shadowrun?

I live in Canada, And I can ALWAYS get a shadowrun group together no matter where I go. Course, I have a captive supply of players, and boredom will bring them to the table like bears to honey.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <10-18-13/2004:45>
This kind of worthless speculation means nothing more than noise on the background. Deal with it.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <10-18-13/2010:12>
This kind of worthless speculation means nothing more than noise on the background. Deal wirh it.

Some of us love our "worthless speculation" :D

and as to noise on the background.... time to install a better filter if it's bothering you :P
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: RHat on <10-19-13/0344:31>
eaten by mutated finches?

Lost of an island with a volleyball for a friend?

get the new book, only to have industrial bleach spilled on it, turning all the pages white?

Ex-wife wants yet MORE money?

Daughter crashed her car... AGAIN??!?!?!

ALL my condos burned down... at the same time?!?

Rabid weasels in the pantry?

Be forced to write source material for annoying fans that threaten to hurt you if you don't put out a new book soon??
Worse.
Being forced to live in Canada and not ever get to play in a game of Shadowrun?

I live in Canada, And I can ALWAYS get a shadowrun group together no matter where I go. Course, I have a captive supply of players, and boredom will bring them to the table like bears to honey.

He's making a joke about the CanRay curse - he never gets to play, he always has to GM.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <10-19-13/0356:59>
I know :P


Just rubbing a little dirt into CanRay's wounds :P

here he is in the "big" cities of Canada (well, ok ONE of the big cities of Canada)

and here I am in the middle of nowhere (we have to bring in our electricity, toilets, food, shelter, supplies.... sometimes by kilometers of dirt roads, sometimes by helicopter)

yet I get 2 to 3 games a week, and he gets none.



Here's looking at CanRay and his Curse! Cheers! <raises beer>
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: grid_roamer on <10-19-13/0701:03>
 Here's my wild speculation..  :)

Sybil and VITAS connections.

 The relationship of VITAS to the sybil: virus is such;
The discovery of the Awakened and their subsequent labeling as a'threat' caused the Matrix development to take on a sinister path.
Example:The AI infiltrations of the Matrix are not that, but engineered process to push development of the matrix therefore the pushing the userbase development. A simular 'infection' protocol is necessary for both. So VITAS was born for the purpose of defining a suitable 'userbase' by eliminating unfit subjects.
The Sybil vector was to further make the Matrix userbase more acceptable hense the inorganic infection schedule...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <10-19-13/0757:45>
nice. paranoid as hell and nice...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <10-19-13/0801:58>
Here's my wild speculation..  :)

Sybil and VITAS connections.

 The relationship of VITAS to the sybil: virus is such;
The discovery of the Awakened and their subsequent labeling as a'threat' caused the Matrix development to take on a sinister path.
Example:The AI infiltrations of the Matrix are not that, but engineered process to push development of the matrix therefore the pushing the userbase development. A simular 'infection' protocol is necessary for both. So VITAS was born for the purpose of defining a suitable 'userbase' by eliminating unfit subjects.
The Sybil vector was to further make the Matrix userbase more acceptable hense the inorganic infection schedule...


Plan 9!!! you've changed your handle!!!

Wow, that would be a REALLY big meta plot... VITAS was over and done with by 2030s.... (except for a few small flare ups)
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: grid_roamer on <10-19-13/2005:06>
I also got ideas about dragons and such being able to stop it all by inacting a population control plan  :-\  but........

 :D
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <10-19-13/2014:39>
I also got ideas about dragons and such being able to stop it all by inacting a population control plan  :-\  but........

 :D

Believe the correct term you are looking for is:

"Dragon finger food"
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: SnackerBob on <10-20-13/1818:39>
I haven't seen a lot of references to Brackhaven's potential infection. Now, I haven't read Season 4, but I can't really see a good reason for tanking Seattle's economy except as a Sybil initiated thing.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <10-20-13/1913:20>
I haven't seen a lot of references to Brackhaven's potential infection. Now, I haven't read Season 4, but I can't really see a good reason for tanking Seattle's economy except as a Sybil initiated thing.

Depends on what the Virus wants (and it DOES seem to want something...)
Look at the know infected:

Riser, an assassin, with links to the Smoker's club, a highly skilled wetwork team.
Fastjack, THE hacker of the known world.
Lanier: A VIP of one of the largest, most powerful MegaCorps on the planet.
Plan9: An individual with ties to the fringe (crazy) element of the world.... where, believe it of not, the first clues to the planetwide conspiracy would first be noticed.
Brackhaven: the governor of one of the most important sprawls on the North America and access to most of the world thanks to it's position as a trading port and the presence of every single Mega on the planet.

So, now you have,

The best info finder, Assassins, Corp assets, a city and rumor control all under the fingers on a Virus..... And it Seems to have intelligence and a plan....


*****

Best not sleep tonight, never know what is going to use your body while you're "away"
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: SnackerBob on <10-20-13/1945:24>
One of the things that I've noted is that the virus has an Agenda, but not necessarily cohesive vision. Each new personality is an individual, and they aren't working completely in sync. Most seem to attempt  secrecy, but then there's the Serial killing, a blatant hack of Richard Villier's email, and SEARCH taunting Fastjack.
So I propose that the virus doesn't really initially know how to be human (and that some personalities don't really care to be), and that while there is the agenda to get meta bodies, there isn't a unified vision on how to accomplish it.
I've also noted that air vector nanotech hasn't been mentioned. It's possible that the NEOnet facility had some sort of way to put nanites into a host's bloodstream, where they reprogram other manures in order to reproduce.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <10-20-13/2213:29>
One of the things that I've noted is that the virus has an Agenda, but not necessarily cohesive vision. Each new personality is an individual, and they aren't working completely in sync. Most seem to attempt  secrecy, but then there's the Serial killing, a blatant hack of Richard Villier's email, and SEARCH taunting Fastjack.
So I propose that the virus doesn't really initially know how to be human (and that some personalities don't really care to be), and that while there is the agenda to get meta bodies, there isn't a unified vision on how to accomplish it.
I've also noted that air vector nanotech hasn't been mentioned. It's possible that the NEOnet facility had some sort of way to put nanites into a host's bloodstream, where they reprogram other manures in order to reproduce.

which would explain why those with Nano hives get taken over faster.....


but there are some REALLY frightening aspects of Cybil as well.... Remember the mages? they blew themselves (and every one else) up with MAGIC.....

So that means if an awakened gets infected and taken over... Sybil now has all the power of the mage!!!

Cybil.... ritual magic.... a disregard for organic life.....


Sweating yet?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: SnackerBob on <10-20-13/2222:11>
One of the things that I've noted is that the virus has an Agenda, but not necessarily cohesive vision. Each new personality is an individual, and they aren't working completely in sync. Most seem to attempt  secrecy, but then there's the Serial killing, a blatant hack of Richard Villier's email, and SEARCH taunting Fastjack.
So I propose that the virus doesn't really initially know how to be human (and that some personalities don't really care to be), and that while there is the agenda to get meta bodies, there isn't a unified vision on how to accomplish it.
I've also noted that air vector nanotech hasn't been mentioned. It's possible that the NEOnet facility had some sort of way to put nanites into a host's bloodstream, where they reprogram other manures in order to reproduce.

which would explain why those with Nano hives get taken over faster.....


but there are some REALLY frightening aspects of Cybil as well.... Remember the mages? they blew themselves (and every one else) up with MAGIC.....

So that means if an awakened gets infected and taken over... Sybil now has all the power of the mage!!!

Cybil.... ritual magic.... a disregard for organic life.....


Sweating yet?

Oh yeah. Sybil is a HUGE threat. I personally theorize at this point that Sybil is a way for AIs to come to the meat world. And with the power of the hosts Magic, they're terrifying. But it seems that the Sybil hosts are a bit fragmented currently. They don't share a plan like many other threats have in the past. Hopefully this aids in thwarting them.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <10-20-13/2233:04>
Now is that cause we don't have all the pieces to the puzzle so we can't see the full picture? Or is it cause they are truly fragmented....

I am thinking it's the former.... as they seem to be striking out at one particular Mega Corp more then anything else (read Storm Front to figure out which one!)

The mages took out some serious investors into a Mega Corp biotech branch, and they themselves were working with that Bio-tech company...

Lanier ordered several attacks on that company while under the control of Cybil.

Fastjack Hacked that company several times, for no reason he can figure out.

Plan 9 had runners killed that were working for that Corp. (through telling the Corps of their up coming runs)

Riser killed several top shadow talents that worked mostly for that Corp...


Sounds like they have a plan to me! But there may be rogue elements that just want something else as well....
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: SnackerBob on <10-20-13/2243:37>
It's interesting that Sybil targets 2 megas. I'm trying to avoid spoilers, too.

Side note: What should we name the folks who have the Virus? Sybellines?

We can't call them Infected.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <10-20-13/2247:19>
It's interesting that Sybil targets 2 megas. I'm trying to avoid spoilers, too.

Side note: What should we name the folks who have the Virus? Sybellines?

We can't call them Infected.

I like the "Walking timebombs of doom" :D

hmmm.. I guess that is a little wordy :P
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: martinchaen on <10-20-13/2338:29>
How about... MICE (Matrix Induced Chronic Encephalitis).

Oooor... APE sufferers (Artificial Personality Echo). Or "Inhabitated" as opposed to infected...

There's always the Splintered State term; CFD, or Cognitive Fragmentation Disorder. We could always refer to them as the Fragmented, I suppose.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: DamienHollow on <10-21-13/0027:52>
"Instant sleeper agent in a virus gone wrong", anyone? I see no reason this couldn't have been invented as a way of trying to turn people into spies or saboteurs without their knowledge and just doesn't work.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Black on <10-21-13/0058:48>
"Instant sleeper agent in a virus gone wrong", anyone? I see no reason this couldn't have been invented as a way of trying to turn people into spies or saboteurs without their knowledge and just doesn't work.

Like a nano-based pesonality chip?  The legacy of dreamchipper with some Deus as well... oh...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <10-21-13/0125:42>
How about... MICE (Matrix Induced Chronic Encephalitis).

Oooor... APE sufferers (Artificial Personality Echo). Or "Inhabitated" as opposed to infected...

There's always the Splintered State term; CFD, or Cognitive Fragmentation Disorder. We could always refer to them as the Fragmented, I suppose.

Fragmented.... nice...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <10-21-13/0126:48>
"Instant sleeper agent in a virus gone wrong", anyone? I see no reason this couldn't have been invented as a way of trying to turn people into spies or saboteurs without their knowledge and just doesn't work.

Like a nano-based pesonality chip?  The legacy of dreamchipper with some Deus as well... oh...






HELLO BOYS!!!! I'M BAAAAAAACK!!!!
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Malathis on <10-21-13/1017:31>
It's interesting that Sybil targets 2 megas. I'm trying to avoid spoilers, too.

Side note: What should we name the folks who have the Virus? Sybellines?

We can't call them Infected.

I like the "Walking timebombs of doom" :D

hmmm.. I guess that is a little wordy :P

WTD's, I like.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: martinchaen on <10-21-13/1023:27>
Fragmented.... nice...

I have the solution to CFD, by the way; get a non-dissonant Technomancer to run defrag... Ta-daaaaa!
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <10-21-13/1207:06>
De-frag in some context could end up like Unborn...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: martinchaen on <10-21-13/1305:08>
Unborn, Sichr?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <10-21-13/1310:42>
I guess its one of those jokes you cannot translate...

De-frag...in the f**ck meaning of "frag", means parents never had sex...it erases someoine`s timeline completely, like he was never born...thus unborn :p
just a reminiscence from one fantasy game played long time ago, where players messed with time traveling...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: martinchaen on <10-21-13/1324:37>
Aaaah, yeah, I didn't catch that at all :p
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: martinchaen on <10-30-13/1135:03>
Have been re-reading the shadowrun.com threads, and this one from back in January caught my eye.
http://www.shadowrun.com/2070/2013/01/11/farewell-to-scott-schletz-aka-wolf/

It's obviously a reference to Sybil and CFD; but I have no familiarity with Wolf or Scott Schletz...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <10-30-13/1317:06>
Nice catch
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: DamienHollow on <10-31-13/0115:16>
You know, this Sybil thing is really starting to make me mad. It's taunting us at this point and I want nothing more than to pin it down, what ever it is, and rip it's guts out for study. I can tolerate a threat I can avoid fighting, like most of the great dragons. I even learned to ignore that pain in the backstory, Harlequin. Anything I can learn to deal with I can accept, but Sybil so far just shows up and jacks your body without any chance of survival (unless someone has beaten this thing back and I just don't know about it.) W know that none of the usual antibiotics/antivirals stop it and nano-hives are a VERY BAD IDEA. Whole thing just sounds like another way GMs get to play god at this point. Throw us a freaking bone already.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <10-31-13/0140:52>
<writes in note book: "watch 'Hollow for signs of infection.">

Seems like the tech world has a 'Big Bad' to watch out for now...

about time something nasty tech wise bubbled to the surface. I mean its been a decade since Deus.. and with as many people using (abusing) the matrix, it was only a matter of time before something came about from all the garbage code flooding the matrix....
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sendaz on <10-31-13/0619:13>
An interesting point is they may well end up painting themselves into a bit of a corner.

We now potentially have AI programs/nanotech that is rewriting people.   

Dissonance users already are able to create Dissonant viruses that leave their victims with all sort of nasty effects.

How long before an enterprising and twisted TM devotes some time to creating a new submerged ability that might let them basically run Puppeteer through an infected/hacked persona.

Imagine your decker not just going into convulsions when slammed with this, but suddenly pulling a pistol and starting to shoot those around them all the while with a goofy grin on their face?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: martinchaen on <10-31-13/0739:16>
Looks like this one could also be related: http://www.shadowrun.com/2070/2013/05/17/knight-errant-conducts-crackdowns-on-illegal-street-clinics-claiming-public-health-nuisance/

"And still more pessimistic chummers are telling me this crackdown will last for as long as people keep showing up with multiple personalities at various hospitals and prisons. Frag me!"

"As a nice twist to this already-crappy news story, Evo is already promising to open clinics that will replace street docs to treat the poor, the SINless, and the shadowrunners with no questions asked."

Since when did a mega do anything out of charity; smells rotten to me...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Michael Chandra on <10-31-13/0854:58>
Just noticed your post in the other topic, Sichr, yer slow. :P
Quote from: Michael Chandra, June 1
I got a theory on why they're targeting street docs. The Sybil virus preys on genetech/nanotech people, those who got engineered enough that weaknesses appeared, cracks for them to exploit. So clearly anyone with that is a risk factor and you want to know exactly who you need to keep an eye on, as well as make sure all enhancements are done by instances you can control. Street docs? You can't control those, and you don't know who they treated. So the only way to keep in control and prevent another Chicago is getting rid of the uncontrollable factors.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Marzhin on <10-31-13/0908:45>
I hope this plot plays a part in future Missions. I love how paranoid things are becoming.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Michael Chandra on <10-31-13/0922:57>
Already began: Carbon Copy. And it's suspected to play a part in Boston, we'll see how bad things get. :) Also Splintered State.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <10-31-13/1334:51>
Just noticed your post in the other topic, Sichr, yer slow. :P
Quote from: Michael Chandra, June 1
I got a theory on why they're targeting street docs. The Sybil virus preys on genetech/nanotech people, those who got engineered enough that weaknesses appeared, cracks for them to exploit. So clearly anyone with that is a risk factor and you want to know exactly who you need to keep an eye on, as well as make sure all enhancements are done by instances you can control. Street docs? You can't control those, and you don't know who they treated. So the only way to keep in control and prevent another Chicago is getting rid of the uncontrollable factors.

I dindn`t get this?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <10-31-13/1349:01>
I just started to think about FJs role in this whole situation, and I wonder if he was "splittered" even before he conducted that run that set those entities free, whatever they were. Going back to the roots, someone need to find out more about this instalation and recover as much as possible about its origin, because clearly those who were holding the doors closed knew what they have imprissoned in their virtual cells.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <10-31-13/1350:06>
and also...if that is the case, how did FJ got infected prior to this jailbreak...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Michael Chandra on <10-31-13/1946:49>
Just noticed your post in the other topic, Sichr, yer slow. :P
Quote from: Michael Chandra, June 1
I got a theory on why they're targeting street docs. The Sybil virus preys on genetech/nanotech people, those who got engineered enough that weaknesses appeared, cracks for them to exploit. So clearly anyone with that is a risk factor and you want to know exactly who you need to keep an eye on, as well as make sure all enhancements are done by instances you can control. Street docs? You can't control those, and you don't know who they treated. So the only way to keep in control and prevent another Chicago is getting rid of the uncontrollable factors.

I dindn`t get this?
I already talked about that link 4 months ago over at SRU. ^_^
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Crimsondude on <10-31-13/2153:42>
How long before an enterprising and twisted TM devotes some time to creating a new submerged ability that might let them basically run Puppeteer through an infected/hacked persona.

Imagine your decker not just going into convulsions when slammed with this, but suddenly pulling a pistol and starting to shoot those around them all the while with a goofy grin on their face?

That virus "exists" in a non-canon capacity. I meant to include it in an adventure, but I seem to have forgotten and didn't notice until it was too late to change it. The stats are on my tumblr and have been posted here somewhere.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: RHat on <10-31-13/2213:28>
How long before an enterprising and twisted TM devotes some time to creating a new submerged ability that might let them basically run Puppeteer through an infected/hacked persona.

Imagine your decker not just going into convulsions when slammed with this, but suddenly pulling a pistol and starting to shoot those around them all the while with a goofy grin on their face?

That virus "exists" in a non-canon capacity. I meant to include it in an adventure, but I seem to have forgotten and didn't notice until it was too late to change it. The stats are on my tumblr and have been posted here somewhere.

And it is freaking evil in the best possible way.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: DamienHollow on <11-03-13/2201:27>
Crazy new idea guys... Anyone here have Corporate Guide? Start on page 109 and read the entire MCT splash. What if this is the "Rose Garden?" These guys like to play dirty with technomancers, right? What if it backfired?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: martinchaen on <11-03-13/2203:29>
That was mention earlier in this thread, DamienHollow.

http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=11017.msg204256#msg204256
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <11-04-13/1137:37>
the question is...what happens to persona when technomancer dies? :)
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <11-04-13/1203:41>
the question is...what happens to persona when technomancer dies? :)

99.99999995% of the time, it goes poof.

the other times..... well, lets just say..... "who you gonna call?"
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <11-04-13/1524:09>
the question is...what happens to persona when technomancer dies? :)

99.99999995% of the time, it goes poof.

the other times..... well, lets just say..... "who you gonna call?"

And is this also valid for those trapped in Rose Gardens?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: DeathStrobe on <11-04-13/1711:48>
the question is...what happens to persona when technomancer dies? :)

99.99999995% of the time, it goes poof.

the other times..... well, lets just say..... "who you gonna call?"

And is this also valid for those trapped in Rose Gardens?

Well...if a brain in a jar has .01 essence, they're probably not going to have enough resonance to be considered TMs anymore.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Mirikon on <11-04-13/1717:17>
Except that the wonderful folks at MCT developed some cyberware that forced TM jarheads to retain their resonance abilities, at the cost of going irretrievably insane.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <11-04-13/2001:11>
Also remember essence loss only happens when you "replace" the meat. Not just losing the meat.
so the essence loss for being a brain in a jar may not be as high as you think....
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: All4BigGuns on <11-04-13/2012:56>
Also remember essence loss only happens when you "replace" the meat. Not just losing the meat.
so the essence loss for being a brain in a jar may not be as high as you think....

Except for the following:

Quote from: Augmentation Page 163
At the end of the surgery, the cyborg is le with an Essence of 0.1.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <11-05-13/0359:17>
Also remember essence loss only happens when you "replace" the meat. Not just losing the meat.
so the essence loss for being a brain in a jar may not be as high as you think....

Except for the following:

Quote from: Augmentation Page 163
At the end of the surgery, the cyborg is le with an Essence of 0.1.

but its not a cyborg yet. Its just a brain in a jar.... no connections for the control of a drone body have been installed. Its just hanging out in a neutrate bath....

I imagine there is some essence loss. But not to the point of being 0.01 essence left as that would destroy the resonance of the brain, rendering the entire point of the process mute.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Mirikon on <11-05-13/0621:03>
Reaver, putting the brain in the jar makes them a cyborg. Whether they're inserted into a drone, or just left someplace to soak in the nutrient solution, they're a cyborg. That is what a cyborg is, a brain in a jar, which sometimes gets put into other things.

And yes, under normal circumstances dropping to .01 Essence would destroy your resonance abilities. But see my earlier comment about how MCT discovered some cyberware that makes that not happen. Or just read Corporate Intrigue. It'll be in the chapter where they rescue Puck.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Malathis on <11-05-13/1003:17>
To be a cyborg there would need to be some sort of headware attached to the brain to have an interface, a TM in a jar wouldn't need this headware changing how much essence that would be lost, however minimal.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: martinchaen on <11-05-13/1059:07>
As Mirikon just stated, I'd highly advise reading Corporate Intrigue; it has some interesting information for sure.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <11-05-13/1207:06>
And you are talking about a major - major - loss of what-makes-you-you.  Injuries have been known to result in essence loss, with no cyber replacement required; it's just part and parcel of how essence works, which is meant to be left somewhat vague.  Essence is psychological, spiritual, psychic, however you want to put it - and getting permanently scooped out of your body is going to make a major lasting impression, no matter what implants you do or do not have.

Remember, kids, the numbers describing the game - especially in Shadowrun - are not the entire story.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <11-05-13/1234:59>
And then you are talking about some place where your self can hide away untouched, connected to this world only by that small piece of living being still inside of your ware. Apply first law of thermodynamics and you get something pretty interresting...
Awakened beings exist in more than single plane. if you kill the mage, what happens with this awakened part of himself? Yes , you can say it disappears into the mana static background. OR. one can think this awakened part of the sould goes somewhere deep. And from time to time, it can find its way back and make the connection to the world of flesh once again. We have seen Shedim before. Now...how is this Sybil virus different? TMs resonance pattern possibly fades away. But maybe it just slips away, maybe to Divided City, and sometimes it finds its way back to the world of flesh, and, using nanites, it anchores for long enought time to prepare vessel for itself to "inhabit".
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: CanRay on <11-05-13/1959:42>
Remember, kids, the numbers describing the game - especially in Shadowrun - are not the entire story.
As I've had to tell quite a few players, "Read the fluff, it is important."

I remember hearing about a gamer that got a BAR in a Noir game awhile back, and thought he could hide it under a jacket.  Not a trenchcoat, a regular jacket.  All he had read are the stats.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Black on <11-05-13/2050:56>
What's a BAR?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: RHat on <11-05-13/2056:44>
What's a BAR?

Old firearm.  Assault rifle, if I remember right.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Longshot23 on <11-05-13/2119:29>
BAR - Browning Automatic Rifle. WWII era Battle Rifle.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: CanRay on <11-05-13/2141:30>
What's a BAR?
Old firearm.  Assault rifle, if I remember right.
Close, it was a precursor to an assault rifle.  It was a light machine gun, magazine-fed (http://world.guns.ru/machine/usa/browning-m191-bar-e.html).
BAR - Browning Automatic Rifle. WWII era Battle Rifle.
More LMG than Rifle (http://world.guns.ru/machine/usa/browning-m191-bar-e.html).  The Bren is another example of the same idea.  A magazine-fed (rather than belt-fed) lightweight weapon that could be carried by a fire unit.

This was in the bad old days when anything had to be water-cooled to be considered reliable.  Even so, swapping barrels in battle was a good idea, or else it could, and would, catch on fire.

In other words, something you can barely hide inside of a van.  ;)
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Mirikon on <11-05-13/2204:28>
Unless, of course, you modified it like Bonnie and Clyde did. After all, the BAR was their weapon of choice.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Marzhin on <11-06-13/0033:47>
Unless, of course, you modified it like Bonnie and Clyde did. After all, the BAR was their weapon of choice.

You could say they were raising the bar...  ;D :-X
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Michael Chandra on <11-06-13/0454:33>
♫ Used to drive a tank and shoot a B.A.R. ♫
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <11-06-13/1156:49>
Please, gentlemen, stick with the topic...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: DeathStrobe on <11-06-13/1325:41>
Please, gentlemen, stick with the topic...
Seriously, these puns are un-bar-able.

Anyway, I guess if the Rose Garden keeps enough essence, that'd explain why Rox in a Box hasn't gone insane from cyberpsychosis or other mental defects, like full cyborgs suffer. But I'm not a big fan of the idea of a brain in a jar keeping their humanity inspite of just being a brain in a jar.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <11-06-13/1350:48>
Brain in a jar in UV zone possibly won`t be able to tell you the difference between being alive or just virtualy alive
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <11-06-13/2031:59>
You think so?  A UV zone (so to speak) means your brain essentially shifts into perceiving the world in direct reference to what it feels/knows its body is - which in part means what it's payed essence for.  But if a TM brain knows at all that it's been decorpulated (hmmm, what IS the term ...), then there's going to be some serious issues, even in UV.  And because the technical expression of SR's rules is not the 'reality' of SR, even if a TM was de-bodied in a UV zone, they may - probably 'will' - get that strong sense that something is wrong, unbalanced.  (Because even if you're running Hot VR, your back-brain knows the rest of your body is there. Major, major penalties to act/react in the Real, sure, but still ...)

All in all, I'd keep the ruling that turning someone, even a TM, into a jarhead is going to drop their essence like a rock.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <11-07-13/0630:33>
Hm. IDN about that. UV zone, the way I understand it, are "Matrix" real, which means you have no idea that you are power cell unless someone from outside tells you.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Mirikon on <11-07-13/1747:57>
Not quite, Sichr. UV nodes are hyperrealistic, and often have rigidly enforced parameters, the equivalent of an uber-high level reality filter. If, for example, the UV host was an Arthurian landscape, your hacker's icon would change to that of an armored knight, their attack programs to a sword and lance, their defenses to armor and a shield, and so on. Patrol IC may take the form of armored knights, and may look for those not wearing the 'colors' of the kingdom. It is still the matrix, but the rules are different.

What you're describing, however, would be like what this wackjob scientist (Shalbermat, I think) did with his 'children'. He took a bunch of kids, and had them constantly hooked up to the matrix, perhaps from as young as newborns. They literally did not know they were in the Matrix, because they'd known nothing else. A technomancer, on the other hand, would know the difference, since they'd have lived outside before.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: DeathStrobe on <11-07-13/1805:09>
Not quite, Sichr. UV nodes are hyperrealistic, and often have rigidly enforced parameters, the equivalent of an uber-high level reality filter. If, for example, the UV host was an Arthurian landscape, your hacker's icon would change to that of an armored knight, their attack programs to a sword and lance, their defenses to armor and a shield, and so on. Patrol IC may take the form of armored knights, and may look for those not wearing the 'colors' of the kingdom. It is still the matrix, but the rules are different.

What you're describing, however, would be like what this wackjob scientist (Shalbermat, I think) did with his 'children'. He took a bunch of kids, and had them constantly hooked up to the matrix, perhaps from as young as newborns. They literally did not know they were in the Matrix, because they'd known nothing else. A technomancer, on the other hand, would know the difference, since they'd have lived outside before.
Some Technomancers believe that reality is fake and that the Matrix is the real world. A mancer from that stream would probably be all about being a brain in a jar.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Mirikon on <11-07-13/1829:00>
Except that doing that would destroy their connection to the Resonance, DeathStrobe, unless they were fitted with the special ware that MCT made that drives them utterly insane in a matter of weeks.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <11-07-13/1847:48>
What you're describing, however, would be like what this wackjob scientist (Shalbermat, I think) did with his 'children'. He took a bunch of kids, and had them constantly hooked up to the matrix, perhaps from as young as newborns. They literally did not know they were in the Matrix, because they'd known nothing else. A technomancer, on the other hand, would know the difference, since they'd have lived outside before.

Halberstam.  'Shelbramat' was an anagram of the name, used as the name of the 'school' for the brain-in-a-jar babies.  He first appeared in the fiction in the back of the original Matrix book, working for UCAS Data Systems, if I remember correctly - though I probably don't.  That, I vaguely recall, was owned by Renraku ... but again, I may be wrong on the details.  However, Halberstam might have been the most wonderful 'low-power' mundane boogieman coming out of 1st Edition.

I honestly do somewhat doubt that he's still seriously active; after all, with the advent of the 'jarhead', no doubt due to his hard work, his life's goals work is pretty much completed.  And while the brain-in-a-box and 'full conversion cyborgs' are a significant trope of cyberpunk, I do feel it was 'rushed into' during 4e ...

Some Technomancers believe that reality is fake and that the Matrix is the real world. A mancer from that stream would probably be all about being a brain in a jar.

Probably true - but a brain-belief finds it very, very difficult to override a body-reality.  All may be maya, illusion, but as the man says, until one is enlightened and can see maya for what it is, one must live within its rules ...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <11-08-13/0322:44>
Not quite, Sichr. UV nodes are hyperrealistic, and often have rigidly enforced parameters, the equivalent of an uber-high level reality filter. If, for example, the V host was an Arthurian landscape, your hacker's icon would change to that of an armored knight, their attack programs to a sword and lance, their defenses to armor and a shield, and so on. Patrol IC may take the form of armored knights, and may look for those not wearing the 'colors' of the kingdom. It is still the matrix, but the rules are different.

What you're describing, however, would be like what this wackjob scientist (Shalbermat, I think) did with his 'children'. He took a bunch of kids, and had them constantly hooked up to the matrix, perhaps from as young as newborns. They literally did not know they were in the Matrix, because they'd known nothing else. A technomancer, on the other hand, would know the difference, since they'd have lived outside before.

Not so sure about that. Hackers being trapped in UV nodes are somrthing i do recall, ant talking about the diferencesbbetween meat and matrix world is none. For brain source of signals is indestinguishable(word?)
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Mirikon on <11-08-13/1140:24>
Hackers have been trapped in UV nodes, yes. But without the use of simsense conditioning (essentially brainwashing) they still KNEW they were in the matrix. The amount of processing required to make a UV host is already exorbitant. It would take even more to make a host that is indistinguishable from the real world, on top of the simsense conditioning programs to make the people forget they're in the matrix. And the moment they stepped out of that host, the whole thing would come crashing down. Even in the UV host, there are simple clues that you just can't get rid of without using enormous processing power, and constantly adjusting the programs in real time. For instance, consider if the setting of the host was a sprawl. Are you going to individually program every car, devil rat, NPC, and so on in the sprawl? Of course not, that would get insane, both in the time and processing required. No, you'll rely on scripted actions/reactions, traffic patterns, and so on. The problem is, unless they are raised to not know anything different (as with the movie Matrix or the Truman Show), the test subjects are going to notice the inconsistencies and patterns before too long. That is, unless you rely on conditioning, distractions, or both to keep them from noticing. But conditioning takes time, and too many convenient distractions is itself an indicator that something was wrong.

Now, that's over the short term (weeks to months). After that period, people will start adapting to the situation if they haven't found a way to escape it. You'll see them start forgetting details of their lives before, and have trouble remembering that they are in a simulation without contact from the outside. After a few years, you'll have a similar situation to Halberstam's children, where they didn't know they were in the matrix, though if they got out of the box, they could remember. But outside of evil science projects like Halberstam, what would be the reason for taking TMs and throwing them in a UV host using all that processing power for months or years? What possible benefit would the corp get? Remember, MCT wasn't doing this for giggles. They were using the jarhead TMs as 'living' IC in their nodes.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: RHat on <11-08-13/1313:16>
One of the Artifacts adventures traps players in a UV node without their being aware of it...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Mirikon on <11-08-13/1323:46>
Yes, but that is a special case, RHat. A short-duration event, with a dose of laes beforehand, and plenty of distractions (escaping a detention center while under fire) to keep them from really examining the situation. The situation we're talking about here is something that goes on for more than just a few hours, but continuing for weeks, months, or more.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: grid_roamer on <11-08-13/1435:02>
Hackers have been trapped in UV nodes, yes. But without the use of simsense conditioning (essentially brainwashing) they still KNEW they were in the matrix. The amount of processing required to make a UV host is already exorbitant. It would take even more to make a host that is indistinguishable from the real world, on top of the simsense conditioning programs to make the people forget they're in the matrix. And the moment they stepped out of that host, the whole thing would come crashing down. Even in the UV host, there are simple clues that you just can't get rid of without using enormous processing power, and constantly adjusting the programs in real time. For instance, consider if the setting of the host was a sprawl. Are you going to individually program every car, devil rat, NPC, and so on in the sprawl? Of course not, that would get insane, both in the time and processing required. No, you'll rely on scripted actions/reactions, traffic patterns, and so on. The problem is, unless they are raised to not know anything different (as with the movie Matrix or the Truman Show), the test subjects are going to notice the inconsistencies and patterns before too long. That is, unless you rely on conditioning, distractions, or both to keep them from noticing. But conditioning takes time, and too many convenient distractions is itself an indicator that something was wrong.

Now, that's over the short term (weeks to months). After that period, people will start adapting to the situation if they haven't found a way to escape it. You'll see them start forgetting details of their lives before, and have trouble remembering that they are in a simulation without contact from the outside. After a few years, you'll have a similar situation to Halberstam's children, where they didn't know they were in the matrix, though if they got out of the box, they could remember. But outside of evil science projects like Halberstam, what would be the reason for taking TMs and throwing them in a UV host using all that processing power for months or years? What possible benefit would the corp get? Remember, MCT wasn't doing this for giggles. They were using the jarhead TMs as 'living' IC in their nodes.

Without a motivation outside profit Its pretty much for their own amusement I think.....
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <11-09-13/0819:54>
Yes, but that is a special case, RHat. A short-duration event, with a dose of laes beforehand, and plenty of distractions (escaping a detention center while under fire) to keep them from really examining the situation. The situation we're talking about here is something that goes on for more than just a few hours, but continuing for weeks, months, or more.

You are defending wrong statements with lots of arguments. UV nodes are as real as reality is. I don`t see the need for philosophic discussion about how difficult this is and how much HW you need for this. As UV node is able to alter subjective time perception, it is quite easy to keep trapped hacker/TM as long as needed, and obviously also long enought to initiate and develop the UV addiction the the extent subject would not want to exit the node.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: SnackerBob on <11-09-13/1033:14>
It still causes Essence loss, though. Any way you (hehe) slice it, TMs need their full bodies, regardless of their personal philosophies.
Scoop the brain out of a solipsist, the same thing happens.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <11-09-13/1133:48>
OK.
Now, we were "speculationg" on the nature of those beings overiding personalities of some people. And one of such hypothesis was, that those things may be personas of Technomancers previously being used in some experiments and possibly killed somehow, matrix personas being separated in process.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Mirikon on <11-09-13/1631:40>
Then they would be e-ghosts, same as any other, without resonance abilities.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <11-09-13/1654:34>
I dont see why resonance would be needed to rewrite someones synapses...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: RHat on <11-09-13/1834:34>
I dont see why resonance would be needed to rewrite someones synapses...

Well, Dissonance at the very least is certainly capable of it.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <11-10-13/0732:40>
Well that would be pretty apparent change, if previously mundane character/teammate etc, becomes technomancer/resonance connected being. Such change would be detected pretty quick and I dont see it being the case of Sybyl virus. If FastJack suddenly becomes TM it would alert at least a few people around him. So I dont think Sybyl virus initiates virtuakinesics in its victims
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: RHat on <11-10-13/1533:35>
Well that would be pretty apparent change, if previously mundane character/teammate etc, becomes technomancer/resonance connected being. Such change would be detected pretty quick and I dont see it being the case of Sybyl virus. If FastJack suddenly becomes TM it would alert at least a few people around him. So I dont think Sybyl virus initiates virtuakinesics in its victims

Nobody said anything about the subjects directly gaining Resonance, though I do reject your premise that it would be quickly and easily discovered.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <11-10-13/1733:16>
At least by assensing it would be, even if they try to stay hidden from node detection and clean signature every here and there.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: RHat on <11-10-13/1831:01>
At least by assensing it would be, even if they try to stay hidden from node detection and clean signature every here and there.

You do remember how many hits it takes to see that someone is a technomancer, right?  Not really quick and easy.  In any case, if the entity taking control has the Resonance abilities they may not be conferred to the host body.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <11-11-13/0712:07>
That would be different question. If  being rewriten by the virus would change somebody's state. Drone also doesnt become resonance being when controlled by sprite. If host loses his magical powers, too. And I do recall how many hits it takes. Far from impossible for initiates. Well  I do agree that it woould require focused observation. But maybe some smart design of detection magic would help.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sendaz on <11-11-13/1634:28>
The issue of does a changed person gain Resonance or just remains as part of the invading persona is going to be interesting as pg 169 in Storm Front shows one such altered person was still fully capable of throwing a fireball or two at a party. 

So not only can they take over and rewrite the personality of host, but it is not so radically changed the internal wiring of said host so far that it rips out their magic potential.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <11-11-13/2142:05>
A person would be more likely to LOSE Magic/Resonance than anything else.  The so-called 'Sybil Virus' is closely akin to PAB emulators, psychotropic IC, and BTL personafix chip use.  They don't make you lose Magic/Resonance ... or rather, you don't lose it right away.  It takes repeated high-level exposure to them for magic (and by inference, resonance) to get burned out, but it does happen - look at the main character in Critias' Neat, who'd been a BTL junkie who nearly burned his magic out of himself.

So getting your synapses rewritten?  Won't screw with your magic or resonance instantly - but over time, it's going to cut the throat on both of them.  What I think the entities that are the 'virus' don't understand/realize is that loading themselves into the meat makes them bound to the rules of the meat ...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Prodigy on <01-20-14/0909:35>
IIRC, the character in Neat lost his magic due to a vampire attack. His BTL use burning his Essence is just speculation...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Michael Chandra on <01-20-14/0911:53>
Fun part about Sybil: A few newsposts on Shadowrun.com had auto-replies waiting for someone to post them while checking it through the site. It's a nice reference to Sybil.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Ragnarok on <01-20-14/1319:59>
So, what's the general consensus about Sybil?

Does the virus overwrite the PC's personality in the "Real World", or only while in the Matrix, and if so, how long does the virus last?

Is there a way to purge the virus once it has been contracted?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <01-20-14/1515:16>
It seems that it is a permanent,  real world over write of the victim's personality.... AND it seems the "Sybil" retains the victims skills AND memories!

There is no known cure at this time.




Welcome to "matrix boogeyman 2.0"
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Michael Chandra on <01-20-14/1525:23>
Not exactly. What you're describing might be the final state, but it might not be entirely. Splintered State describes a case that isn't at that point yet.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <01-20-14/1542:35>
True...

It seems to take time to totally overwrite the victim's personality... which seemed dependant on the amount of nanotechnology in the victim.

During the overwriting, the victim experiences "lost time"... or preforms actions (usually matrix) while sleeping, and a host of other symptoms.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Michael Chandra on <01-20-14/1556:09>
Split personality, and the personalities aren't synched, so neither may be aware of the other at first.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: RHat on <01-20-14/1915:49>
So, what's the general consensus about Sybil?

Does the virus overwrite the PC's personality in the "Real World", or only while in the Matrix, and if so, how long does the virus last?

Is there a way to purge the virus once it has been contracted?

We do know from Storm Front that it is DEFINITELY in meatspace, rather than isolated to the Matrix.  No room for argument on that one.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Longshot23 on <01-21-14/0427:02>
Looking back at both the original writing, and the speculation that's gone on . . .

I think I agree with the theory that there is an Agenda/Goal that these Fragmented are pursuing. I also have the feeling that the people who have exhibited these tendencies are not part of the Agenda/Goal - that they are stepping stones. I . . . think . . . that the secondary personalities will, for the most part, leave their 'hosts' if possible, further down the track as the plot/story is developed. People - even augmented ones - don't seem to be the preferred containers for these personalities.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <01-21-14/0525:00>
Would you explain your reasoning?  I have seen no evidence of an agenda or goal; I also see no likelihood of 'abandonment' of the host bodies.  In fact, I foresee them wanting to remove themselves, and discovering that they cannot do so ...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Ragnarok on <01-21-14/0939:49>
I'm wondering now if Sybil is a response by the Dissonance Realms to the restructuring of the Matrix that the Megas enacted?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Longshot23 on <01-21-14/0952:35>
Would you explain your reasoning?  I have seen no evidence of an agenda or goal; I also see no likelihood of 'abandonment' of the host bodies.  In fact, I foresee them wanting to remove themselves, and discovering that they cannot do so ...

For me, the agenda/goal concept primarily comes from Miles Lanier's briefing - particularly the part about hacking into NeoNET and sending the memo to those recipients (Abigail James, Nightengale’s Clinics; Finion Elparanza, Dorada Genetech; Aston Faust, Pioneer Cybernetics; John Bogden, MindStorm Neurotechnologies; Teng Suzhou, Suzhou Biotechnology) - quite possibly fellow Fragmented/Inhabited. Also the account of those three people at the NYE party, and SEARCH's demands on FastJack(SR). Trying to get all Fragmented/Inhabited to get the same augmentations suggests they're shooting for something specific, yet to be revealed - but they don't get biology (yet). They don't get that the people they're in aren't the same as them. SEARCH taunted Fastjack about not "getting attached to this shell" - to me this implies SEARCH thinks FJ is another Fragmented/Inhabited who happened to get in first, and SEARCH has no problem about evicting him, provided the nanohive and genewipe are in place. Another point of interest is why SEARCH didn't contact MindStorm during one of the blackouts FJ had . . . correction: SEARCH did try to access MindStorm, presumably to arrange to get those augmentations.

I don't agree with the theory that Danielle de la Mar and her backers knew about all this and designed the new [SR5] Matrix to work against these entities. De la Mar just comes across as incredibly "I know what's best for the world, so you should all do what I say" - annoying, sanctimonious, holier-than-thou - but she really believes the line she's pushing/selling.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Michael Chandra on <01-21-14/0954:40>
I'm wondering now if Sybil is a response by the Dissonance Realms to the restructuring of the Matrix that the Megas enacted?
It's not. Splintered State supports my suspicions that NeoNet has meddled with e-ghosts too much and caused Sybil.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <01-21-14/1038:25>
As for Danielle De La Mar, I really think she resembles Harvey Dent a lot...before his fall, that is.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Ragnarok on <01-21-14/1443:07>
Would you explain your reasoning?  I have seen no evidence of an agenda or goal; I also see no likelihood of 'abandonment' of the host bodies.  In fact, I foresee them wanting to remove themselves, and discovering that they cannot do so ...

For me, the agenda/goal concept primarily comes from Miles Lanier's briefing - particularly the part about hacking into NeoNET and sending the memo to those recipients (Abigail James, Nightengale’s Clinics; Finion Elparanza, Dorada Genetech; Aston Faust, Pioneer Cybernetics; John Bogden, MindStorm Neurotechnologies; Teng Suzhou, Suzhou Biotechnology) - quite possibly fellow Fragmented/Inhabited. Also the account of those three people at the NYE party, and SEARCH's demands on FastJack(SR). Trying to get all Fragmented/Inhabited to get the same augmentations suggests they're shooting for something specific, yet to be revealed - but they don't get biology (yet). They don't get that the people they're in aren't the same as them. SEARCH taunted Fastjack about not "getting attached to this shell" - to me this implies SEARCH thinks FJ is another Fragmented/Inhabited who happened to get in first, and SEARCH has no problem about evicting him, provided the nanohive and genewipe are in place. Another point of interest is why SEARCH didn't contact MindStorm during one of the blackouts FJ had . . . correction: SEARCH did try to access MindStorm, presumably to arrange to get those augmentations.

I don't agree with the theory that Danielle de la Mar and her backers knew about all this and designed the new [SR5] Matrix to work against these entities. De la Mar just comes across as incredibly "I know what's best for the world, so you should all do what I say" - annoying, sanctimonious, holier-than-thou - but she really believes the line she's pushing/selling.

Keep in mind, I don't have Storm Front nor Splintered State and have no clue as to whom Danielle de la Mar is or for which Mega she works for, but she sounds like someone suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder with a megalomaniacal streak as long as the Nile River (heh, heh, heh).
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Namikaze on <01-21-14/1617:08>
IIRC, doesn't Danielle de la Mar work directly for the Corporate Court?  I was under the impression she spent a lot of time in Zurich-Orbital too.  That kind of thing might either give someone a god complex, or be the result of someone with one.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <01-21-14/1744:37>
well se was ddicated crusader, that is true, butI wnt blame her for that...IDN if she has any personal history with Matrix crime. And she was able to convience that Dodger to cooperate with her, you know...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Longshot23 on <01-21-14/2133:59>
She never worked for any of the megacorps - apparently she never needed to work in her life. "Reforming" the Matrix is all her own idea - just ask her. There was some speculation it was sparked by her former husband's ONLINE affair with a younger woman.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Ragnarok on <01-25-14/2202:54>
Anything new regarding FastJack?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Prodigy on <01-26-14/0408:41>
Buy StormFront and you can read all about FastJack.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <01-26-14/0501:01>
Buy StormFront and you can read all about FastJack.

Imo he has something NEW on his mind...Stormfront is pretty old news, if you ask me...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: RHat on <01-26-14/0541:20>
Way I understand it, FastJack is more or less written out for now - AKA, don't be expecting updates on him all that soon.  The end of Storm Front is kinda a goodbye to the character.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Prodigy on <01-26-14/0902:27>
That is kinda what I meant by my statement. I don't see a 'Jack update anywhere in the near future.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: martinchaen on <01-26-14/1042:41>
RHat I'd wager FastJack gets a cameo or maybe something more in Stolen Souls.

Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <01-26-14/1301:34>
<waiting for the return of Captain Chaos>
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Michael Chandra on <01-26-14/1304:19>
Who knows, he might.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: RHat on <01-26-14/1510:36>
...  If Sybil is an e-ghost thing, and Captain Chaos is an e-ghost after getting saved by JackBNimble...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Ragnarok on <01-31-14/1306:35>
...  If Sybil is an e-ghost thing, and Captain Chaos is an e-ghost after getting saved by JackBNimble...

...maybe FastJack is being possessed by Captain Chaos?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Michael Chandra on <01-31-14/1354:17>
No, CC isn't involved with NeoNet but with the Draco Foundation.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Longshot23 on <01-31-14/2152:02>
Where's  Pax during all this?

It'd be ironic if she got the Sybil . . .
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Angrypixels on <02-10-14/2210:36>
Where's  Pax during all this?

It'd be ironic if she got the Sybil . . .

What would be ironic is if it gave her a resonant alter ego  8)
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Czujny on <02-24-14/2223:32>
Didn't the dragon E-ghost get the sybil?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <02-25-14/0230:44>
People keep thinking / saying it's an actual virus.  It isn't.  It's closer to spirit inhabitation/possession by an electronic entity - which phrasing I use specifically, since it appears that while many or most of them are types of AI, they could theoretically also be E-Ghosts.  It also requires a very particular set of circumstances and implants - by which I mean the entities that make up the Sybil "virus" generally have a reason to go after a particular individual or set of individuals, and require a certain amount of built-in technological assistance to succeed.

Which means that in part the event is going to happen to specific individuals, remain relatively rare, and require very unique and special timing.  It also means that electronic entities cannot themselves 'come down with' or 'get' or 'acquire' or 'fall victim to' the Sybil "virus".  They might, however, be members of the Sybil community ...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: RHat on <02-25-14/0247:32>
People keep thinking / saying it's an actual virus.  It isn't.  It's closer to spirit inhabitation/possession by an electronic entity - which phrasing I use specifically, since it appears that while many or most of them are types of AI, they could theoretically also be E-Ghosts.  It also requires a very particular set of circumstances and implants - by which I mean the entities that make up the Sybil "virus" generally have a reason to go after a particular individual or set of individuals, and require a certain amount of built-in technological assistance to succeed.

Which means that in part the event is going to happen to specific individuals, remain relatively rare, and require very unique and special timing.  It also means that electronic entities cannot themselves 'come down with' or 'get' or 'acquire' or 'fall victim to' the Sybil "virus".  They might, however, be members of the Sybil community ...

Well, some of the Sybil personalities are supposedly known individuals with particular backstories...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Czujny on <02-25-14/0408:22>
I suspect NeoNET and Ares caused this over time. 
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Longshot23 on <02-25-14/0433:04>
Why Ares?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <02-25-14/1118:31>
Matrix 4: The Reverse
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Czujny on <02-25-14/1316:27>
I blame Ares because they stuck paranormal creatures in the matrix. Probably experimented with putting a spirit in the matrix as well.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Longshot23 on <02-25-14/2218:43>
Okay, I missed something, because I'm blanking on this.

Ares has done stuff with insect spirits, including IS investing Awakened animals and all the way up to bioware based on insect spirits. But I have never read of Ares pushing Matrix research out past "current" bounds. NeoNET, Evo and Horizon are the megas with the higher degree of Matrix research and spirit research, and where the twain can possibly meet.

And that's not touching on what goes on below the AAA level.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Czujny on <02-25-14/2257:19>
Exposing paranormal things to the matrix isn't fishy to you?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <02-25-14/2358:21>
I think he's wondering - and so am I - where you're getting the 'exposing paranormal things to the matrix' from.  In other words, can you point us to a book and page for that claim?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <02-26-14/0522:53>
The closest thing I can think of is the Biodrones and Warforms from Running Wild.

they had limited matrix access (they could be linked to the commlink of the handler and given ARO target info, or left to "do their own thing" once combat began) and were a major project of Ares and its subsidiaries.


but I am not making the connection between a dog wired to the matrix and an "intelligent" matrix organization/entity..... the two are just too far removed intellectually to be connected.   
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: RHat on <02-26-14/0539:51>
Might be conflating technocritters with something else...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Michael Chandra on <02-26-14/0745:50>
Pretty sure Sybil is just NeoNet, which is kinda supported by Storm Front + Splintered State.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Nightmare on <02-26-14/1009:09>
Pretty sure Sybil is just NeoNet, which is kinda supported by Storm Front + Splintered State.

Don't forget Horizon as well...it has to do with the collection of the AIs and e-ghosts in the system.  Both NeoNet (mainly Celedyr's section) and Horizon, and perhaps MIT (unsure on this one), were working together to create something similar to Quicksilver's cyberdeck to bring back the dragon lost in the Matrix.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Palladion on <02-27-14/0009:11>
Anyone who has not read Splintered State, spoilers to follow.

[SPOILER]
Just for the sake of those not following this thread 100%, is this Sybil virus and Cognitive Fragmentation Disorder (Splintered State 56) the same thing? CFD is stated as "technologically propagated computer virus that can directly influence human brainwaves". It seems to indicate that this is what FastJack and a bunch of others have?
[/SPOILER]

Nothing to see here...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: DeathStrobe on <02-27-14/0027:51>
I think he's wondering - and so am I - where you're getting the 'exposing paranormal things to the matrix' from.  In other words, can you point us to a book and page for that claim?

Eliohann? (http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Eliohann)
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Longshot23 on <02-27-14/0155:51>
I think he's wondering - and so am I - where you're getting the 'exposing paranormal things to the matrix' from.  In other words, can you point us to a book and page for that claim?

Eliohann? (http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Eliohann)

Yeah . . .

Anything else? Anything that constitutes an ongoing Ares program?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <02-27-14/0205:53>
Anyone who has not read Splintered State, spoilers to follow.

[SPOILER]
Just for the sake of those not following this thread 100%, is this Sybil virus and Cognitive Fragmentation Disorder (Splintered State 56) the same thing? CFD is stated as "technologically propagated computer virus that can directly influence human brainwaves". It seems to indicate that this is what FastJack and a bunch of others have?
[/SPOILER]

Nothing to see here...



Not read Splintered state, but from your posting I have 2 views on the subject.

1: They are unrelated events. CFD seems like the evolution of IC, now gone native and "attacking" people on random, while Cybil definitely seems to have intelligence and motive behind its infections, and the actions the infected take.

2: They are, in fact the exact same thing. Only CFD is being misdiagnosed due to the "intelligence" of Sybil.... It's smart enough to know that if it is found out, its plans are in jeopardy, but it can't fully hide itself.... so doctors are calling it CFD and think it is something other then what it is. (a "virus" instead of an "intelligence/entity").

or maybe even 3...


3: I have had too many beers and am totally missing the mark....
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Michael Chandra on <02-27-14/0333:43>
Pretty much screams Sybil to me. Note how they roughly describe it as a bunch of AIs put in a blender and the result poured into someone's head.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Nightmare on <02-28-14/1239:10>
Anyone who has not read Splintered State, spoilers to follow.

[SPOILER]
Just for the sake of those not following this thread 100%, is this Sybil virus and Cognitive Fragmentation Disorder (Splintered State 56) the same thing? CFD is stated as "technologically propagated computer virus that can directly influence human brainwaves". It seems to indicate that this is what FastJack and a bunch of others have?
[/SPOILER]

Nothing to see here...


I'd say they're the same thing.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <02-28-14/2112:58>
I think he's wondering - and so am I - where you're getting the 'exposing paranormal things to the matrix' from.  In other words, can you point us to a book and page for that claim?

Eliohann? (http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Eliohann)

Always look to the source material - in this case, the adventure Dragon Hunt.  The wikia entry is wrong (woefully wrong, actually), in that Emerging Futures was a small, unrated corporation which captured Eliohann, and which was actually taken over by said dragon, who ramrodded the datajack implants and Matrix connection (and thus was the cause of the subsequent events as portrayed in the mission).  Emerging Futures was not initially an Ares venture; at the very end of the adventure, [spoiler]the PCs fight through Ares goons at the hospital in order to 'save' Eliohann, only to discover he's just sold Emerging Futures to Ares[/spoiler] - which is where the Ares connection comes in.
Anything else? Anything that constitutes an ongoing Ares program?
... which is really the rest of my point.  There's no evidence of an ongoing Ares program in paranormal-to-Matrix technology; they might have dipped into the 'use-a-guard-animal-to-run-IC' testing, or worked on trials to implant paranormals with cyberware or bioware, but I can recall nothing ongoing that suggests that Ares had an ongoing paranormal-to-Matrix program.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Longshot23 on <02-28-14/2211:42>
Hope that answers the question. Paranormal-to-Matrix seems more like an MCT, or Evo, or Renraku trope. Or maybe (only just) conceivably, Telestrian.

Ares has been about 'what can we successfully weaponise?' Hence the insect spirit program(s), which apparently led to current problems.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Ragnarok on <03-01-14/1235:18>
Well, I just finished reading Storm Front, and it was an engrossing read.

My thoughts on Sybil:  I put it all on the shoulders of Celedyr, with its storage of e-ghosts and other technosapients.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Nightmare on <03-03-14/1008:24>
It's mentioned in Clutch of Dragons (I think, don't quote me) that Celedyr buys Emerging Futures from Ares at some point, perhaps during the second crash.  Unsure though.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Namikaze on <03-03-14/1020:24>
It's mentioned in Clutch of Dragons (I think, don't quote me) that Celedyr buys Emerging Futures from Ares at some point, perhaps during the second crash.  Unsure though.

I'd have to double-check, but if that's the case then he has possession of Rhiannon.  Coupled with the power shift from Lofwyr to Celedyr, this almost certainly makes him the most dangerous dragon in the world.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Nightmare on <03-03-14/1038:32>
It's mentioned in Clutch of Dragons (I think, don't quote me) that Celedyr buys Emerging Futures from Ares at some point, perhaps during the second crash.  Unsure though.

I'd have to double-check, but if that's the case then he has possession of Rhiannon.  Coupled with the power shift from Lofwyr to Celedyr, this almost certainly makes him the most dangerous dragon in the world.

Never count Lofwyr out...remember he only handed the Lorekeeper title over temporarily while he cleaned things up....that and Celedyr is more of a tinkering than the schemer that Lofwyr is.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: martinchaen on <03-03-14/1055:23>
According to the 1st Edition adventure "Dragon Hunt", Emerging Futures was a small think-tank that signed a five-year exclusive contract with Ares in 2045.

[spoiler=Adventure Details, you have been warned]
Project Cerberus, which aimed to integrate animal minds with cyberspace, was not actually sanctioned by Ares, and was an off-the-books undertaking by Armand DeHavillier, a mid-level R&D Ares executive with ambitions aplenty.

After 8 months of work, Emerging Futures was ready to call it quits, but pressure from executives made Justine Grier, Director of Operations at Emerging Futures, decide to shift focus from mundane animals to awakened ones. Amongst the paranormal creatures captured by a shadowrunner team hired by Grier was Eliohann, classified by Emerging Futures as a "Western Dragon, pre-adolescent, average-to-below-average intelligence for type".

After a lot of back and forth that's more adventure specific than related to this discussion, Eliohann managed to acquire a majority of Emerging Futures shares and in essence took over control of the corp.

Ares, having been tipped off to Grier and DeHavillier's experiments understandably panicked, and ordered Emerging Futures to terminate the project as well as all test subjects. Eliohann learned of Ares' plans and accelerated Project Cerberus, and once Ares learned that the project had not been terminated they began considering direct action. Eliohann began negotiations with Ares directly, and stalled the direct action options until Ares caught on that the dragon was delaying. After jacking into the Matrix following his surgery, Eliohann is assaulted by a freelance team and is afflicted by amnesia, possibly as a result of the Matrix experience followed by forced dumpshock. The actual adventure takes place shortly after this.

At the conclusion of the adventure, the canon ending is that Ares decided to negotiate with Eliohann after all, and that Ares absorbs Emerging Futures in exchange for continued research into Matrix/Dragon interfaces.
[/spoiler]

Following the events of Dragon Hunt, the 3rd Edition book Dragons of the Sixth World mentions Emerging Futures being acquired by Transys Neuronet at some point after Celedyr learned of Eliohann's involvement at Emerging Futures in 2057, and very likely after Dunkelzahn's death. The Shadowrun wiki puts this acquisition in 2063, but I have been unable to confirm this directly. What is known from Dragons of the Sixth World, Street Legends, Emergence, Unwired, and The Clutch of Dragons, however, is that Eliohann and Celedyr was at the very least communicating before Eliohann's physical death during Crash 2.0, after which his body wasted away and Eliohann became a digital entity. Eventually, Eliohann (using the aliases Cerberus in some books and Neurosis in others, most notably in Street Legens), ends up leading Project Imago for Celedyr and Emerging Futures/Transys Neuronet/NeoNET.

I think it's safe to say that while Ares dabbled in Dragon/Paranormal Animal Matrix interfaces, it was second-hand more than anything else. Eliohann led the charge, so to speak, first under Emerging Futures, then backed by Ares, and eventually with the support of Celedyr and his assets in Transys Neuronet/NeoNET.


Namikaze; The Torc of Rhiannon, or Rhiannon Glendower, the duchess? The former was bequeathed to Lugh Surehand; how would Lofwyr and/or Celedyr come into posession of the the Torc, and what would this signify? I'm unaware of any actual description of what this item is; care to enlighten us?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Namikaze on <03-03-14/1107:06>
Namikaze; The Torc of Rhiannon, or Rhiannon Glendower, the duchess? The former was bequeathed to Lugh Surehand; how would Lofwyr and/or Celedyr come into posession of the the Torc, and what would this signify? I'm unaware of any actual description of what this item is; care to enlighten us?

I'm talking about the e-dragon, Eliohann.  My mistake.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: RHat on <03-03-14/1839:52>
It's mentioned in Clutch of Dragons (I think, don't quote me) that Celedyr buys Emerging Futures from Ares at some point, perhaps during the second crash.  Unsure though.

I'd have to double-check, but if that's the case then he has possession of Rhiannon.  Coupled with the power shift from Lofwyr to Celedyr, this almost certainly makes him the most dangerous dragon in the world.

Never count Lofwyr out...remember he only handed the Lorekeeper title over temporarily while he cleaned things up....that and Celedyr is more of a tinkering than the schemer that Lofwyr is.

That's not quite how I recall that going - Lofwyr stepped down; Celedyr was selected by some dragon custom amidst competition from others.  The nature of the shift wasn't temporary.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Ragnarok on <03-04-14/1158:08>
It's mentioned in Clutch of Dragons (I think, don't quote me) that Celedyr buys Emerging Futures from Ares at some point, perhaps during the second crash.  Unsure though.

I'd have to double-check, but if that's the case then he has possession of Rhiannon.  Coupled with the power shift from Lofwyr to Celedyr, this almost certainly makes him the most dangerous dragon in the world.

Never count Lofwyr out...remember he only handed the Lorekeeper title over temporarily while he cleaned things up....that and Celedyr is more of a tinkering than the schemer that Lofwyr is.

That's not quite how I recall that going - Lofwyr stepped down; Celedyr was selected by some dragon custom amidst competition from others.  The nature of the shift wasn't temporary.

Lofwyr did indeed step down, and I got the impression that Celedyr was elected, considering Ryumyo threw his name for consideration.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Longshot23 on <03-05-14/0530:45>
The one year 'grace period'/wind-down of draconic hostile actions gives Celedyr a chance to hunt down all the Sybil sufferers and get the Sybil back under wraps.

Apologies if this has already been mentioned.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: martinchaen on <03-05-14/0812:53>
That's assuming that 1. Celedyr knows about CFD/Sybil, 2. Is interested in stopping it, and 3. Has the means to do so.

Those are some pretty big assumptions if you ask me. to my mind, CFD sounds a little bit like Pandora's Box; how do you get the drek back in the box once it's unleashed upon the world?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Longshot23 on <03-05-14/1020:25>
True, true and true.

It also just occurred to me that the Sybil may have been deliberately released - on Celedyr's orders. Though I have no idea what the objective could be.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Nightmare on <03-05-14/1026:29>
I had the similar idea that Celedyr let it loose on purpose too...and I think his objective might've been to allow all the ghosts/AIs/ect to have bodies thus forcing the UN to accept AIs and such as sentient beings...just a thought though.

If Celedyr didn't know about it, then Eliohahn did.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sendaz on <03-05-14/1028:54>
Creating an effective way to basically copy, store and reinsert someone's 'ghost' or personality potentially overwriting the receiving 'host's' own personality would have huge potential, especially if multiple copies of the same persona can be used at the same time.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Namikaze on <03-05-14/1030:53>
I could see Celedyr doing this for no other reason than to enslave (meta)humanity.  It doesn't need to be more complicated than that, but then again these are dragons we're talking about.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Nightmare on <03-05-14/1033:21>
I could see Celedyr doing this for no other reason than to enslave (meta)humanity.  It doesn't need to be more complicated than that, but then again these are dragons we're talking about.

I don't know....Celedyr isn't the type for enslavement of metahumans.  Remember, he backed Hestaby originally in making "peace" with metahumans.  I see him more of using it to expand his knowledge of the Matrix and technology, seeing as he loves tinkering sooo much.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Namikaze on <03-05-14/1118:37>
Yeah, but he won the vote of the other dragons to become Loremaster, just after Hestaby was exiled.  While we have no idea of the details of that meeting, it may be safe to assume that he had to distance himself at least a little bit.  And besides - there's always the chance that he's been infected with Sybil as well.  It's all completely wild speculation though, since we have no idea what in the world these dragons think or plot.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <03-05-14/1159:56>
Saying Celedyr "loves meta-humans" is not the same as saying Celedyr sees techno AIs/ghosts/its as sapient and deserving of respect.

Heck, that debate is still going on in the UN!
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: CanRay on <03-05-14/1401:07>
All dragons love metahumans.

That's why most of them own a ketchup factory.  ;D
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sendaz on <03-05-14/1824:44>
Choosy Dragons choose Jif  :P
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: callmedinosaur on <03-06-14/0256:30>
Choosy Dragons choose Jif  :P

Choosy dragons choose Jeff
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Longshot23 on <03-06-14/0918:32>
New guess: the Sybil is what happens when someone tries to have the Intersect in the Sixth World . . .
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Namikaze on <03-06-14/1000:21>
Choosy Dragons choose Jif  :P

Choosy dragons choose Jeff

Speaking on behalf of the Jeff's out there: awwwww.  :(
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Ragnarok on <03-06-14/2047:45>
New guess: the Sybil is what happens when someone tries to have the Intersect in the Sixth World . . .

I soooo get that reference!   8)
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Digital_Viking on <03-06-14/2149:56>
New guess: the Sybil is what happens when someone tries to have the Intersect in the Sixth World . . .

I soooo get that reference!   8)

(http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t166/Louis_Zolotor/cap_zps5b74746d.jpg) (http://s160.photobucket.com/user/Louis_Zolotor/media/cap_zps5b74746d.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: psycho835 on <03-07-14/1250:47>
Yeah, but he won the vote of the other dragons to become Loremaster, just after Hestaby was exiled.  While we have no idea of the details of that meeting, it may be safe to assume that he had to distance himself at least a little bit.  And besides - there's always the chance that he's been infected with Sybil as well.  It's all completely wild speculation though, since we have no idea what in the world these dragons think or plot.
Now THAT is just fraggin' terrifying.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <03-07-14/1414:37>
I doubt he(IT) was ever subject of nanotechnology treatment or anything even close. Shirrug, on the other hand, is completely different storry, well he was kicked somewhere to the outer space so I doubt we will hear about him anytime soon.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Namikaze on <03-07-14/1527:54>
I'm not convinced that Celdyr's never played with nanoware.  He has the e-dragon Rhiannon at his side, so who knows what kind of craziness he might believe in now?  And even if Celedyr isn't infected, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if his Knights of Rage are.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: psycho835 on <03-07-14/1639:55>
I'm not convinced that Celdyr's never played with nanoware.  He has the e-dragon Rhiannon at his side, so who knows what kind of craziness he might believe in now?  And even if Celedyr isn't infected, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if his Knights of Rage are.
Thought that's Eliohann.
And let's hope that he (Celedyr) isn't infected, what with the "new loremaster" thing. Imagine if he decided to spread it to OTHER great dragons.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <03-07-14/1643:34>
I'm not convinced that Celdyr's never played with nanoware.  He has the e-dragon Rhiannon at his side, so who knows what kind of craziness he might believe in now?  And even if Celedyr isn't infected, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if his Knights of Rage are.


I think it's more of the "tech and dragons don't mix" thing for nanowire. I mean they have had nanoware forever. It is thanks to nanotech that a datajack is even possible. yet look how much time, effort and research when into installing the single one in "whatsitsname". and even then it is said it nearly killed him (or drove him mad? I can't remember).

If a simple datajack does that to a "brother", do you go messing with the more advanced crap?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: psycho835 on <03-07-14/1653:48>
Well, Sirrurg DID got zapped with nanoinfectors. Granted, those were designed to frag him up, but still. Perhaps nanoware w/o a hive is an exception to the rule?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <03-07-14/1711:05>
Scarry thong is that Sybil is something even Dragons could have mussed.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Shock223 on <03-07-14/1738:44>
Yeah, but he won the vote of the other dragons to become Loremaster, just after Hestaby was exiled.  While we have no idea of the details of that meeting, it may be safe to assume that he had to distance himself at least a little bit.  And besides - there's always the chance that he's been infected with Sybil as well.  It's all completely wild speculation though, since we have no idea what in the world these dragons think or plot.
Now THAT is just fraggin' terrifying.

It would only be more terrifying if Celedyr had the sudden urge to roost in Renraku Arcology.



Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <03-07-14/1844:59>
Yeah, but he won the vote of the other dragons to become Loremaster, just after Hestaby was exiled.  While we have no idea of the details of that meeting, it may be safe to assume that he had to distance himself at least a little bit.  And besides - there's always the chance that he's been infected with Sybil as well.  It's all completely wild speculation though, since we have no idea what in the world these dragons think or plot.
Now THAT is just fraggin' terrifying.

It would only be more terrifying Celedyr had the sudden urge to roost in Renraku Arcology.

Oh God. Or was it...Oh Deus?!
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sendaz on <03-07-14/1846:19>
Yeah, but he won the vote of the other dragons to become Loremaster, just after Hestaby was exiled.  While we have no idea of the details of that meeting, it may be safe to assume that he had to distance himself at least a little bit.  And besides - there's always the chance that he's been infected with Sybil as well.  It's all completely wild speculation though, since we have no idea what in the world these dragons think or plot.
Now THAT is just fraggin' terrifying.

It would only be more terrifying Celedyr had the sudden urge to roost in Renraku Arcology.

Oh God. Or was it...Oh Deus?!
If that were the case, in the words of Bender, 'Well, we're boned.'
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Shock223 on <03-07-14/1907:58>
Yeah, but he won the vote of the other dragons to become Loremaster, just after Hestaby was exiled.  While we have no idea of the details of that meeting, it may be safe to assume that he had to distance himself at least a little bit.  And besides - there's always the chance that he's been infected with Sybil as well.  It's all completely wild speculation though, since we have no idea what in the world these dragons think or plot.
Now THAT is just fraggin' terrifying.

It would only be more terrifying Celedyr had the sudden urge to roost in Renraku Arcology.

Oh God. Or was it...Oh Deus?!

Honestly, I don't think it's him/it per say but my running thought is that Sybil virus is the old Network attempting to reboot it's self back up. Once it gets operational, It may recompile Dues, Mirage, and Morgan and start the whole thing all over again.

My evil thought of the day is having all of them recompile in Celedyr's mind. Nothing like having a Great Dragon going insane from three God-tier AIs screaming in his brain.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Namikaze on <03-07-14/1913:05>
Damn it, I said Rhiannon again.  I meant Eliohann.

Honestly, the datajack that got installed in Eliohann's head was really old tech by these standards.  And a datajack is way more invasive than nanobots.  You can breath nanobots - can't install a datajack without surgery and neurosurgery at that.

If, and that's a big if, a great dragon got infected with Sybil, would the other dragons muster a defense to destroy it?  Look at the dragon civil war - sometimes they do fight their own battles.  Something like that would potentially destroy the world, especially if dragons were a vector.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Shock223 on <03-07-14/1940:37>
If, and that's a big if, a great dragon got infected with Sybil, would the other dragons muster a defense to destroy it?  Look at the dragon civil war - sometimes they do fight their own battles.  Something like that would potentially destroy the world, especially if dragons were a vector.

Do dragons as a whole even understand the Matrix? Not just use it, but understand it? Sure, you got Celedyr messing with NeoNET and Eliohann and perhaps the big D himself before he killed himself, but those are the only two that actually seem to deal with it. The rest of them seem too wrapped up petty dramas and issues with the Astral to muster a defense from the Matrix besides attempting to pull the "Off switch".

Dragons are creatures of old world knowledge and ideals and while that has helped them greatly in the past (knowing where all the artifacts are buried, superior knowledge of everything related to the Astral, etc), it does jack squat in an environment that literally can change in a heart beat, does not naturally favor them, and where their opponents have the processing power of entire civilizations to outwit and out maneuver them (and are constantly increase in intellect as well).

In a way, I'm reminded of the old poem about John Henry (Dragons) in his fight against the machine (in this case, a technological singularity). The Dragons playing a game where they don't even know they're playing, the game is rigged, and prize is the continued existence of their species. 

But this will never come to pass for due to plot armor.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Namikaze on <03-07-14/2237:46>
In a way, I'm reminded of the old poem about John Henry (Dragons) in his fight against the machine (in this case, a technological singularity). The Dragons playing a game where they don't even know their playing, the game is rigged, and prize is the continued existence of their species.

Good analogy, and good questions.  It may be that detachment from the machine in their faces that ultimately destroys them.  From a dragon's perspective, I'd say Aztechnology is the biggest worry they've got.  No dragons that I'm aware of even live in Aztlan, no known infiltrators or manipulators, and they KO'd Sirrurg and took back part of Denver in the period of a few months.  Somehow I doubt that the Azzies have anything to do with Sybil, but they may draw enough of the dragons' collective attention to allow for other forces to gather strength.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: psycho835 on <03-07-14/2300:14>
Yeah, but he won the vote of the other dragons to become Loremaster, just after Hestaby was exiled.  While we have no idea of the details of that meeting, it may be safe to assume that he had to distance himself at least a little bit.  And besides - there's always the chance that he's been infected with Sybil as well.  It's all completely wild speculation though, since we have no idea what in the world these dragons think or plot.
Now THAT is just fraggin' terrifying.
It would only be more terrifying Celedyr had the sudden urge to roost in Renraku Arcology.

Oh God. Or was it...Oh Deus?!

You know, somehow, I find the idea of a murderous uber-AI a lot less creepy than some random corporate cocktail of e-ghosts/minor AIs/psychotropic IC on crack. The devil you know isn't that scary.

That being said, I wasn't familiar with Shadowrun when the whole mess with uber-AIs and otaku went down.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Shock223 on <03-08-14/0103:06>
In a way, I'm reminded of the old poem about John Henry (Dragons) in his fight against the machine (in this case, a technological singularity). The Dragons playing a game where they don't even know their playing, the game is rigged, and prize is the continued existence of their species.

Good analogy, and good questions.  It may be that detachment from the machine in their faces that ultimately destroys them.  From a dragon's perspective, I'd say Aztechnology is the biggest worry they've got.  No dragons that I'm aware of even live in Aztlan, no known infiltrators or manipulators, and they KO'd Sirrurg and took back part of Denver in the period of a few months.  Somehow I doubt that the Azzies have anything to do with Sybil, but they may draw enough of the dragons' collective attention to allow for other forces to gather strength.

Aztechnology is the teenager who plays with butterfly knifes, likes to show off his pistol collections, makes statues of people he hates to put out on the range later, and responds to the saying "Drugs are bad m'kay" with making his own custom ones in his basement. Almost all dragons hate the Azzies for a lot of reasons. Some because they use blood magic and draw the Horrors closer but mostly because they tell the Dragon Council to go **** themselves with a bastard sword. That's something only the dragons are supposed to do (and the IEs at times) and for a group of mere mortals to actually the guts and the guns to do so? shameful.. I mean kids these days..

As for dragons within Aztechnology it's self. There is rumored to be a horror infested one on the board of directors but never saw anything come of that.

I don't think the Big A is behind Sybil as well. It isn't their style to do something like that. They would much prefer get an army, drive it through the heartland of their enemy, and hear the lamentation of their women.

Personally, Hestaby and the D saw the writing on the wall that dragons as a whole are going to lose a lot of the prestige and power in the coming years (I may even say "made obsolete") and want to move the species towards more mainstream integration with society as a whole, thus sparking the war that they had.
They may not know of the Matrix's ability to eventually spit out a entity much much more intellectually superior than them but they do know mere mortals can now slay greats and possibility even destroy all life with a series of Thor Shots/Nuclear war.

 As for the rest of the Greats who don't understand, well...

(https://gs1.wac.edgecastcdn.net/8019B6/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp1ja3eJGz1qln2e2o1_500.png)
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <03-08-14/0118:03>
... talk about going way out in left field with the idea.  I mean, we're no longer even in the cornfield out past left field, we're in the wheat field beyond the cornfield.  Or maybe even in the soybean field on the other side of that ...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Namikaze on <03-08-14/0131:52>
... talk about going way out in left field with the idea.  I mean, we're no longer even in the cornfield out past left field, we're in the wheat field beyond the cornfield.  Or maybe even in the soybean field on the other side of that ...

So you don't think that Sybil could affect a dragon?  Or you don't think that a dragon is behind Sybil?  Or you don't think that Aztechnology is a bad corp?  Trying to figure out what you mean here, Wyrm.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Shock223 on <03-08-14/0137:45>
... talk about going way out in left field with the idea.  I mean, we're no longer even in the cornfield out past left field, we're in the wheat field beyond the cornfield.  Or maybe even in the soybean field on the other side of that ...

So you don't think that Sybil could affect a dragon?  Or you don't think that a dragon is behind Sybil?  Or you don't think that Aztechnology is a bad corp?  Trying to figure out what you mean here, Wyrm.

I think he means the conversation is developing a multithreaded  plot.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <03-08-14/0539:54>
I think it would be a mistake to discount just how smart a dragon really is.

While it is true they knew nothing of the matrix before they awoke. Once they awoke, I bet they (well, most) made a huge effort to get a grasp on the technology of the day. And given their vast intelligence, they would grasp the fundamentals of the matrix much better then most deckers or programmers.

We know that at least a few dragons use the matrix, we just don't know how much.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sendaz on <03-08-14/0711:09>

We know that at least a few dragons use the matrix, we just don't know how much.
*ponders online dragon porn*
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: psycho835 on <03-08-14/0717:34>
Somebody get me laes.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <03-08-14/0845:59>

We know that at least a few dragons use the matrix, we just don't know how much.
*ponders online dragon porn*

Called "Nat Geo: Reptile Special!"


Course, with just how freaky human sexuality can get.....


Dragon with a latex and bondage Fetish?

Or Schoolgirl?

Or Geeky Nerd Computer Geek?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: psycho835 on <03-08-14/0919:44>
Frag laes. Just give me a Manhunter with a single bullet.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <03-08-14/0923:12>
Frag laes. Just give me a Manhunter with a single bullet.


OOOHHH!!!


How bout, a transsexual, crossdressing dragon into water sports, bondage, latex and spanking?!?!


"Ok, Lover, let me crawl across you lap. Get the paddle ready!"
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <03-08-14/0924:57>
Somebody get me laes.

ROFL
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <03-08-14/0934:35>
Love Adventures of Hestaby: Shirrug, the femmdom edition...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: psycho835 on <03-08-14/1055:39>
Transsexual dragon... Aden?


All right, that does it.  *gunshot*

Damn it, I glitched. Think KE will be very mad about that window?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <03-08-14/1209:07>
DILF? Anyone?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Namikaze on <03-08-14/1212:23>
Oh dear god, I can never get that out of my head now.  I'm an hour away from meeting my players, and now I'm going to have to spread this to them.  Thanks guys.  :P
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <03-08-14/1325:20>
BTL market TOP seller...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sendaz on <03-08-14/1426:41>
Oh dear god, I can never get that out of my head now.  I'm an hour away from meeting my players, and now I'm going to have to spread this to them.  Thanks guys.  :P
Is it too late to add in Scalies (http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs15/f/2007/032/3/f/SCALIES_ARE_FURRIES_TOO_by_spacewolfomega.jpg) just in case your player's characters want to join in? :P
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Shock223 on <03-08-14/1514:10>
I think it would be a mistake to discount just how smart a dragon really is.

While it is true they knew nothing of the matrix before they awoke. Once they awoke, I bet they (well, most) made a huge effort to get a grasp on the technology of the day. And given their vast intelligence, they would grasp the fundamentals of the matrix much better then most deckers or programmers.

We know that at least a few dragons use the matrix, we just don't know how much.

You are completely right but the issue remains that Moore's Law affects the capabilities of AIs. Some already possess the traits that make more intelligent   than most intelligent metahuman and within a few months after will be more intelligent an entire civilization of metahumans.

Where does the benchmark lie for the dracoforms? They ultimately up next on the chopping block of being surpassed. The dragons, even most of the Greats seem to unaware of this happening.

We got a taste of this when Dues was preparing to go full Skynet on the world Mirage got involved. I can only think of this getting easier as more powerful AIs start showing up at a exponentially faster rate which will either result in another Crash, or the Greats being thrown from their perch of the most feared beings out there.

As for dragon pornz in the Matrix, I'm sure it exists in shadowrun as it does today and has made it's way into BTL chips. That's what the internet is for. 
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Nightmare on <03-10-14/1012:15>
Ach....dragon porno....frag, I thought I'd wiped that from my commlink already.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <03-10-14/1344:02>
What has been seen......
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Ragnarok on <03-10-14/2333:12>
Ach....dragon porno....frag, I thought I'd wiped that from my commlink already.

I wouldn't mind Hestaby in her MH-birthday suit.  😜
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sendaz on <03-11-14/0430:27>
Ach....dragon porno....frag, I thought I'd wiped that from my commlink already.

I wouldn't mind Hestaby in her MH-birthday suit.  😜

They say Damon has put out a PlayDragon™ Centerfold Calendar featuring a different dragonette each month in both Scaly and MH form, but you have to be a Dragon or Drake to even get on that subscription list....

Hestaby is apparently July.  :o
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Longshot23 on <03-11-14/0454:15>
Ach....dragon porno....frag, I thought I'd wiped that from my commlink already.

I wouldn't mind Hestaby in her MH-birthday suit.  😜

They say Damon has put out a PlayDragon™ Centerfold Calendar featuring a different dragonette each month in both Scaly and MH form, but you have to be a Dragon or Drake to even get on that subscription list....

Hestaby is apparently July.  :o

Uh . . . so did he go for Aden's MH form or not?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Shock223 on <03-11-14/0503:56>
Ach....dragon porno....frag, I thought I'd wiped that from my commlink already.

I wouldn't mind Hestaby in her MH-birthday suit.  😜

They say Damon has put out a PlayDragon™ Centerfold Calendar featuring a different dragonette each month in both Scaly and MH form, but you have to be a Dragon or Drake to even get on that subscription list....

Hestaby is apparently July.  :o

I can just hear the howls of laughter and paranoia as soon as that stuff hits Jackpoint.

Hold on, I think I may have just found a job for my players.. You could build a complete arc on paydata like that..
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sendaz on <03-11-14/0602:53>
Ach....dragon porno....frag, I thought I'd wiped that from my commlink already.

I wouldn't mind Hestaby in her MH-birthday suit.  😜

They say Damon has put out a PlayDragon™ Centerfold Calendar featuring a different dragonette each month in both Scaly and MH form, but you have to be a Dragon or Drake to even get on that subscription list....

Hestaby is apparently July.  :o

Uh . . . so did he go for Aden's MH form or not?
Now THAT is an interesting question indeed....

More research is required I guess ;)

Anyone care to make a run on a Dragon's lair to acquire a calendar?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: psycho835 on <03-11-14/0841:49>
Ach....dragon porno....frag, I thought I'd wiped that from my commlink already.

I wouldn't mind Hestaby in her MH-birthday suit.  😜

They say Damon has put out a PlayDragon™ Centerfold Calendar featuring a different dragonette each month in both Scaly and MH form, but you have to be a Dragon or Drake to even get on that subscription list....

Hestaby is apparently July.  :o

We could hire Assets Inc., they are mostly drakes.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Ragnarok on <03-11-14/1002:47>
Ach....dragon porno....frag, I thought I'd wiped that from my commlink already.

I wouldn't mind Hestaby in her MH-birthday suit.  😜

They say Damon has put out a PlayDragon™ Centerfold Calendar featuring a different dragonette each month in both Scaly and MH form, but you have to be a Dragon or Drake to even get on that subscription list....

Hestaby is apparently July.  :o

We could hire Assets Inc., they are mostly drakes.

And I bet they'd be just as interested as us non-dracoforms.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <03-12-14/0739:58>
Kids, it isn't like you couldn't track 'em all down if you wanted to.  Consider the ubiquitousness of cameras in Shadowrun ...

Hmph.  Dragons.  Gotta catch 'em all.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sendaz on <03-12-14/0947:42>
Kids, it isn't like you couldn't track 'em all down if you wanted to.  Consider the ubiquitousness of cameras in Shadowrun ...
or spycams for that matter.... I shudder to think who had the cojones to sneak into Hestaby's lair for that shower shot. :P
Quote
Hmph.  Dragons.  Gotta catch 'em all.
We're going to need a  MUCH bigger Pokeball.  8)
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Nightmare on <03-12-14/1155:37>
Kids, it isn't like you couldn't track 'em all down if you wanted to.  Consider the ubiquitousness of cameras in Shadowrun ...
or spycams for that matter.... I shudder to think who had the cojones to sneak into Hestaby's lair for that shower shot. :P
Quote


All I have to say is the nuyen was worth it!
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Shock223 on <03-12-14/1620:20>
Kids, it isn't like you couldn't track 'em all down if you wanted to.  Consider the ubiquitousness of cameras in Shadowrun ...
or spycams for that matter.... I shudder to think who had the cojones to sneak into Hestaby's lair for that shower shot. :P

Really just need a powerful Technomancer to clear out the jamming and a rigger.

It would also help to have a vehicle with a live Matrix connection. I'm fairly sure that live footage of a team being chased by angry dragon who forgot to grab a towel after that would rake in the nuyen.

provided you survive.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Longshot23 on <03-13-14/0511:23>
Uh, a team would have to FIND Hestaby's New Lair first . . . or are we assuming this all happens pre-Storm Front?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Shock223 on <03-13-14/0903:57>
Uh, a team would have to FIND Hestaby's New Lair first . . . or are we assuming this all happens pre-Storm Front?

I was assuming the latter.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Angrypixels on <03-13-14/1700:54>
Uh, a team would have to FIND Hestaby's New Lair first . . . or are we assuming this all happens pre-Storm Front?

I was assuming the latter.

Well if its the former...with her hoard gone she might need the money.

(sidenote) This is one of the stranger threads ive read on these boards and considering the adventures of Mungo & his "truck" thats saying something.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sendaz on <03-13-14/1709:02>
Well if its the former...with her hoard gone she might need the money.
Quite possible among other things.......

Oh great, now where is Damon going to get a Pimp Daddy outfit in size XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXL (Dragon) and some gold caps for a fang or two?

Quote
(sidenote) This is one of the stranger threads ive read on these boards and considering the adventures of Mungo & his "truck" thats saying something.
You are welcome  ;D

We are here all week and do try the veal.

But back to the Sybil/CFD for a moment.

It would be interesting to get ahold of someone suffering from the effects of this and go through a thorough checkover with a mage. 

Full scan of the aura, especially during the transition of personalities, mind probe and similar to try and see what's happening inside.  Maybe help reinforce the original personality so they are not being overwritten quite so easily by the usurping presence.

Also is the issue of transmission.  How much of this personality can be compressed and transmitted in one go? 

FastJack's tale of slowly slipping  along with the other accounts of adding more cyber to the bodies might imply more than just a  one-off infection that gradually grew from that initial exposure. 

What if there was an initial beachhead made by whatever this effect is and the rest of the information is being downloaded over time via the matrix through the nanotech and similar?

Could placing a subject in a Faraday cage have an effect?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: psycho835 on <03-13-14/1848:47>
Since we are on the topic of using magic to combat Sybil - would it be possible to detect and purge nanoinfectors in your body with magic? Like, say an anchored  "Ram Nanites" spell, aimed at yourself and set to go off on infection.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sendaz on <03-13-14/1912:24>
It would depend.  Is the carrier for this a particular type of nanite that has been spread through a wide range of equipment or it simply an attack of opportunity using a broad range of nanites....

If it is  the former and there was access to some of the nanites to test against, I imagine a spell could be devised to purge it, once overcoming the OR of course.


If it is the latter, this could be a bit trickier. Remember there are hard and soft nanites with the latter being partly organic so trying to sweep the body of all possible variations may be more problematic to screen against.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: psycho835 on <03-13-14/1916:49>
Well, at least it's possible. :(
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sendaz on <03-13-14/1918:23>
oh certainly it's possible :)

Just may need to burn through a few test subjects to get it right. ;)

But we are also potentially dealing with a whole other persona, so that will also have to be given some consideration.

Yes, hijacking bodies is bad, but if one were in the same position what would they do to get back to the physical realm if given the opportunity?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <03-14-14/0024:42>
I'd call this more of a poison/disease vector - once nanotech is introduced to the body, a physical spell targeted to them isn't going to quite work, because they're inside the body.  It'd be like creating a 'destroy cyanide' spell - works great on cyanide outside, but you need 'cure poison' once it's been introduced.

Note, by the way, that this 'overwriting' technology really isn't anything new for Shadowrun; it's been around since the early 2050's, having been introduced in Shadowbeat, which was, IIRC, for 1e.  This is just the first time it's been pushed in this direction, with the implantation of a nanotech hive 'assisting' in the completion of a long-term overwrite.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <03-14-14/0059:24>
I'd call this more of a poison/disease vector - once nanotech is introduced to the body, a physical spell targeted to them isn't going to quite work, because they're inside the body.  It'd be like creating a 'destroy cyanide' spell - works great on cyanide outside, but you need 'cure poison' once it's been introduced.

Note, by the way, that this 'overwriting' technology really isn't anything new for Shadowrun; it's been around since the early 2050's, having been introduced in Shadowbeat, which was, IIRC, for 1e.  This is just the first time it's been pushed in this direction, with the implantation of a nanotech hive 'assisting' in the completion of a long-term overwrite.

Shadowbeat was the first fluff book for 2e.


and in looking at it you are right, there is some mention of it... which is just was quickly swatted down as "matrix boogie-men"...


but, the seed IS there....
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Nightmare on <03-14-14/1008:37>
You know, I was re-reading some of the old Shadowrun novels by FASA and something came to mind.  What if Dodger is actually behind the release of the Sybil virus?  Stick with me here, he helped come up with the 5e version of wireless and he was wandering around working for pretty much nothing at a load of corps that were up to who-knows-what.  Add to that, that during that time he was searching for "Morgan" (I know she goes by another name know but still...it's Morgan) or at least pieces of her.  And in the novels, he mentions on occasions that if he knew of a way to make her, as he called it, "meat" then they would have a true relationship/love affair.  Coincidence, paranoia, or something more...I don't know.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sendaz on <03-14-14/1027:38>
While I am always happy to blame an Elf when things go wrong, am not sure we can lay it entirely at his feet.

Although, maybe he was working with someone on this kind of a project and things have slipped free when the site was compromised.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <03-14-14/1032:15>
(... edited down to Dodger Did It!!)
  *facepalm*  Yyyyyeah ... no.  I get everyone ICly wondering the whole 'woo, how did this happen, who's to blame', but c'mon, people - dragons?  Bugs??  Dodger?!?  OOCly, from the fiction it's really rather blatantly obvious how, why, and when things went down.  The only real question is what group within Evo had control over their Mars program - but that can be rather obviously deduced by the results.

Shadowbeat was the first fluff book for 2e.
Thank you.
and in looking at it you are right, there is some mention of it... which is just was quickly swatted down as "matrix boogie-men"...

but, the seed IS there....

.... uhhh ... I think we're looking at two different sections. I'm talking about PAB memory-editing/reprogramming, which was anything but 'matrix boogie-men', as there were full-on rules for it.  What are you talking about??
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Namikaze on <03-14-14/1034:52>
Alright Wyrm, for those of us without your extensive, god-like knowledge, can you dumb it down for us?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <03-14-14/1139:50>
(... edited down to Dodger Did It!!)
  *facepalm*  Yyyyyeah ... no.  I get everyone ICly wondering the whole 'woo, how did this happen, who's to blame', but c'mon, people - dragons?  Bugs??  Dodger?!?  OOCly, from the fiction it's really rather blatantly obvious how, why, and when things went down.  The only real question is what group within Evo had control over their Mars program - but that can be rather obviously deduced by the results.

Shadowbeat was the first fluff book for 2e.
Thank you.
and in looking at it you are right, there is some mention of it... which is just was quickly swatted down as "matrix boogie-men"...

but, the seed IS there....

.... uhhh ... I think we're looking at two different sections. I'm talking about PAB memory-editing/reprogramming, which was anything but 'matrix boogie-men', as there were full-on rules for it.  What are you talking about??


Oh you are talking about the personality overwrite. Without looking it up again, that was not really the same thing. The one way back then took hours of being hooked up to a specialized machine as it overwrote your personality (or submerged it in the case of deep cover agents). The process also alluded to the fact that it could also cause MPD are a host of other issues....





What I am referring to is the old "matrix legends" of people who jacked into the matrix, then came out as entirely a different person! Think invasion of the body snatchers.... you jack in as Sam the Boy, but Jack out Sally the girl..... And it was dismissed by the other posters as Matrix fiction. (was a fluff write up in one of the books)
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <03-14-14/2256:00>
Alright Wyrm, for those of us without your extensive, god-like knowledge, can you dumb it down for us?

Being given 'tude like that, how can I say no?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Namikaze on <03-14-14/2328:43>
Alright Wyrm, for those of us without your extensive, god-like knowledge, can you dumb it down for us?

Being given 'tude like that, how can I say no?

Given that every time you've posted in this thread, you've condescended to us lesser beings, how could I ask any other way?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <03-15-14/0052:34>
Alright Wyrm, for those of us without your extensive, god-like knowledge, can you dumb it down for us?

Being given 'tude like that, how can I say no?

Given that every time you've posted in this thread, you've condescended to us lesser beings, how could I ask any other way?

My question is, 'how could you ask at all???'  I gave my replies on page one and two of this thread.  Everyone else wants to pull in dragons, free spirits, and gods know what else, and that fits just fine with the name of the thread, but cripes, can you really think for a New York minute that any of that is what's really happening???

If you want it laid out, then step one:

Fact: You can, since 2e (what year was Shadowbeat, ICly? 2051?  2052?), change a person's memories, including adding to them, by use of a PAB machine.  (Maybe also magic, but don't quote me on that.)
Postulate: Peoples' personalities are built from their memories.
Theorized: If you change enough of a person's memories, you can change the individual's personality. 

In support of this are the events of the Arcology shutdown, in which thousands of people had their memories played with, added to, etc., in full 3-D Panoramic TerrorVision, changing their personalities - including but not limited to the Whites/Blues/Greens.  Also altered were those who would become the Network - people who were conditioned to 'plug in' and remain so for extended periods of time so that the code in their head could download and reassemble in the Matrix.

Step 2:

Fact: PABs could engineer personality overlays.  Introduction of a secondary personality based on another, even identical to another, is not only possible, but practiced.
Postulated: They could also cause powerful personality disorders.
Addendum: ... as can other online-only programs, such as psychotropic IC.
Fact: These disorders could be as extensive as multiple personalities, subconscious 'Judas' activities (betraying your comrades without ever remembering you did just that), and similar issues, or as simple as just wanting to "Buy Ares!!"
Fact: Without being addressed, these issues lingered, and though they were not automatically permanent, they could be.
Therefore: Given access, time, and (most importantly) processing power, full personality replacement - which interim steps could easily and explainably include 'blank-out' time where the personality being replaced is neither in charge nor aware of a gap in time - is not only possible, it is well within reach of Shadowrun technology as it stands.

Step 3:

Observed: All individuals who have been afflicted with the 'Sybil virus' (the latter part of which name is grossly incorrect) possess the capacity for direct neural linking, e.g. they possess datajacks.  (Even the mages.)
Postulated: None of the individuals who have been afflicted have experienced a total transformation of their genetics - what muscle memory (or Talent) their body possesses, their body continues to possess.
Observed/Deduced: Many, if not all, of the individuals who are known or suspected of being transformed by this attack have had a) direct neural contact with one, possibly multiple (and very possibly significant numbers of) presumably angry electronic intelligences (Elints) as well as b) EITHER subjected to a significant, extended period of time under which they could have been kept in a minimally-interactive situation (Roger Soaring-Owl is one of these, Anatoly Kirilenko is another) OR implanted (by prior intent (Fastjack), forcibly (Kirilenko) or due to early actions / influence of the secondary, 'replacing' personality (possibly Soaring-Owl)) with a nanohive which logically could be programmed to engage in ongoing PAB activity - said PAB activity's stated aim being to replace the initial host personality with the invasive Elint personality.

You piss off a thousand free spirits who just so happen to have been shown the way - or figured out - how to take over a person.  As with Deus, the tech is there - you just have to have the reason (same reason, in this case - you'd think they'd learn) to reach out, grab it, and use it As Necessary in order to get yourself out.

Dragons?  Dodger?  All the other crazy theories here?  They're fun, they're funny, but I can't for the life of me see how they could possibly be taken seriously, when the answer is bloody idiot-simple, and even done before.  You'll forgive me if I continue to ricidule 'wild speculations' for what they are - wildly speculative, if not far, far, far beyond left field.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Czujny on <03-15-14/0103:23>
Sounds like remixing memories. So why wouldn't a corporation be involved in that. That would benefit the AAA corps in so many ways. So why then is it not plausible to suspect them.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <03-15-14/0201:24>
Because it isn't cost-effective.  The only reason PABs got used were to encourage loyalty in someone vital or valuable, or to muddle the memories of a critical witness in order to cover up some atrocity that would cost a corp millions or more.  When you're talking about what the 'virus' is doing, it's hugely time-intensive, erratic, and (as always) open to potential and radical failure.  It's a personal-job-only event - where it's 'damn the cost, full steam ahead', you don't care if you blow up so long as you either a) succeed or b) take the guy down with you.

If you're being tortured, exposed to agonizing pain day in and day out for months or years on end - what wouldn't you do to escape and strike back at those you saw as your tormentors?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Longshot23 on <03-15-14/0651:54>
A couple of things just occurred to me.

1. Whatever nanoware is required for the secondary entity to invade the host, would it be required after that point - after getting inside? If not, targeting the nanoware with whatever 'cleansing' measure is available may not accomplish a fragging thing, other than the demise of the nanoware.

2. Endgame: there apparently is one, and revenge on the former imprisoning corp may not be it.

3. Quote: "being tortured, exposed to agonizing pain day in and day out for months or years on end" - such as being taken to an apparently miniscule-mana environment like Mars?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: psycho835 on <03-15-14/0816:39>
A couple of things just occurred to me.

1. Whatever nanoware is required for the secondary entity to invade the host, would it be required after that point - after getting inside? If not, targeting the nanoware with whatever 'cleansing' measure is available may not accomplish a fragging thing, other than the demise of the nanoware.

2. Endgame: there apparently is one, and revenge on the former imprisoning corp may not be it.

3. Quote: "being tortured, exposed to agonizing pain day in and day out for months or years on end" - such as being taken to an apparently miniscule-mana environment like Mars?

Drek, you're right. SEARCH demanded from Fastjack to get nanohive. And it kept getting stronger even without it. Soooo... purging body of nanoware will probably only slow the virus down. At best.

As for the magic theory - I really hope that Sybil isn't awakened. Not because it would be scary or more difficult to deal with, but because it would be anticlimatic. Magical threat in the matrix? Don't we have a whole host of better, more appropriate enemies originating in digital world? Dissonance? AIs? E-Ghosts? Corporate experiments? Slamm-0's vandalism?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <03-15-14/0843:28>
I'd call this more of a poison/disease vector - once nanotech is introduced to the body, a physical spell targeted to them isn't going to quite work, because they're inside the body.  It'd be like creating a 'destroy cyanide' spell - works great on cyanide outside, but you need 'cure poison' once it's been introduced.

Note, by the way, that this 'overwriting' technology really isn't anything new for Shadowrun; it's been around since the early 2050's, having been introduced in Shadowbeat, which was, IIRC, for 1e.  This is just the first time it's been pushed in this direction, with the implantation of a nanotech hive 'assisting' in the completion of a long-term overwrite.

Not sure if you are meaning that, but saying nanites cannot be removed from body with the use of magic would be very forced limitation, give what else is possible to accomplish with magic. If you are able to cast the spell able to remove HMHVV vrom your system, It should be possible to remove objects from inside your body that are not in balance with your aura or part of it. Something like "Purrify". I dont say it would be easy and once the formula is created, it would be expensive as hell. My bets would be EVO or Wuxing.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Longshot23 on <03-15-14/1013:06>


As for the magic theory - I really hope that Sybil isn't awakened. Not because it would be scary or more difficult to deal with, but because it would be anticlimatic. Magical threat in the matrix? Don't we have a whole host of better, more appropriate enemies originating in digital world? Dissonance? AIs? E-Ghosts? Corporate experiments? Slamm-0's vandalism?

Actually I agree.  Crossing magic with matrix seems like a bad goofy idea.  It seemed freaky that technomancers seemed to have progress and identity options that paralleled those available to mages & shamans, but it also made a strange kind of sense.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <03-15-14/1159:34>
A couple of things just occurred to me.

1. Whatever nanoware is required for the secondary entity to invade the host, would it be required after that point - after getting inside? If not, targeting the nanoware with whatever 'cleansing' measure is available may not accomplish a fragging thing, other than the demise of the nanoware.

2. Endgame: there apparently is one, and revenge on the former imprisoning corp may not be it.

3. Quote: "being tortured, exposed to agonizing pain day in and day out for months or years on end" - such as being taken to an apparently miniscule-mana environment like Mars?

Drek, you're right. SEARCH demanded from Fastjack to get nanohive. And it kept getting stronger even without it. Soooo... purging body of nanoware will probably only slow the virus down. At best.

As for the magic theory - I really hope that Sybil isn't awakened. Not because it would be scary or more difficult to deal with, but because it would be anticlimatic. Magical threat in the matrix? Don't we have a whole host of better, more appropriate enemies originating in digital world? Dissonance? AIs? E-Ghosts? Corporate experiments? Slamm-0's vandalism?


I doubt very much that whatever Sybil turns out to be, that it will be awakened. I am thinking more and more that Sybil is like a rigger. And we are it's drones, and entities like SEARCH are it's agents....



And just like a drone. if the person is awakened, Then Sybil can use the magic of the human "drone".... (just like if a drone has a missile launcher....)


Hmmmm Revenge of the pilot drone-program-turned-AI?   "I will rid the world of idiot pilots who crash drones like me a hundred times! Then, the assholes to shoot drones!! And Dwarves!!!! Kill the dwarves!! Leaving that facial pubic hair everywhere...."
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Namikaze on <03-15-14/1242:07>
Wyrm, I read through your first two posts on the boards - the only ones on pages 1 or 2.  What you did was dismiss everyone else's theories in favor of your own.  Assuming that whatever is going on is based on PAB technology, it would be capable of being reversed or "cured."  I'm not saying that PAB-based tech couldn't be behind this, but why does that automatically discount dragons as a source of said tech?  When you've got three great dragons sitting on the boards of megacorps, they have a claw or two in almost everything.

So to be clear - you think that this is just a case of PAB gone wrong, and that there isn't any kind of bigger power behind all of this?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: psycho835 on <03-15-14/1757:25>
A couple of things just occurred to me.

1. Whatever nanoware is required for the secondary entity to invade the host, would it be required after that point - after getting inside? If not, targeting the nanoware with whatever 'cleansing' measure is available may not accomplish a fragging thing, other than the demise of the nanoware.

2. Endgame: there apparently is one, and revenge on the former imprisoning corp may not be it.

3. Quote: "being tortured, exposed to agonizing pain day in and day out for months or years on end" - such as being taken to an apparently miniscule-mana environment like Mars?

Drek, you're right. SEARCH demanded from Fastjack to get nanohive. And it kept getting stronger even without it. Soooo... purging body of nanoware will probably only slow the virus down. At best.

As for the magic theory - I really hope that Sybil isn't awakened. Not because it would be scary or more difficult to deal with, but because it would be anticlimatic. Magical threat in the matrix? Don't we have a whole host of better, more appropriate enemies originating in digital world? Dissonance? AIs? E-Ghosts? Corporate experiments? Slamm-0's vandalism?


I doubt very much that whatever Sybil turns out to be, that it will be awakened. I am thinking more and more that Sybil is like a rigger. And we are it's drones, and entities like SEARCH are it's agents....



And just like a drone. if the person is awakened, Then Sybil can use the magic of the human "drone".... (just like if a drone has a missile launcher....)


Hmmmm Revenge of the pilot drone-program-turned-AI?   "I will rid the world of idiot pilots who crash drones like me a hundred times! Then, the assholes to shoot drones!! And Dwarves!!!! Kill the dwarves!! Leaving that facial pubic hair everywhere...."

Oh, drek, one of my chars has a "demolish drone" spell. Which he used frequently.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: RHat on <03-15-14/1831:09>
Can I just say PAB based stuff doesn't seem near weird enough to be this?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <03-15-14/1833:15>
Can I just say PAB based stuff doesn't seem near weird enough to be this?


could have been the foundation of the idea for whatever Sybil is... that is for sure.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Namikaze on <03-16-14/0156:23>
Oh certainly, PAB-based technology sure makes sense to have something to do with this.  But there's nothing to indicate that that's where this begins and ends.  I have little doubt that if PAB is what is (relatively) publicly known about, there's something even worse that a corp or private entity has been working on.  The weird thing to me is that there seems to be a sort of focus to the blackouts.  Like the blackout doesn't happen and the person just decides to go have a cup of coffee and watch the sunset.  This gives the impression that there's some sort of plan at work, even if the plan is just to determine boundaries and such.  It reminds me a little too much of the raptors from Jurassic Park hitting the electric fence to find weaknesses.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <03-16-14/0227:09>
....

Look, Namikaze, not once did I say 'it's PAB technology and PAB technology alone that's doing this!!'  PAB technology, which is the same tech behind psychotropic IC, is how it is being done - just as PAB / psychotropic IC programming was used in the brainwashing and conversion of thousands of citizens of Renraku America, Seattle Arcology Division.  You wouldn't say then that PAB technology was 'where it begins and ends' - would you??

It's blatantly obvious - as stated in the third point of my Step 3, above - that the guiding force behind these invasions, possessions, or however you want to put it are the Elints that were being e-vivisected - while still fully aware, I expect - in the various black laboratories of NeoNET, Renraku, MCT, and other computer-intensive corporations.  (Yes, including Evo. I suspect the Mars experimental station base to have one of these as a major section - and then the wee matrix beasties got out of their bar codes, so to speak.  And no, Longshot, the mana level wouldn't have any effect.  It's the fact that Mars is the ultimate in isolation labs in Shadowrun.)

'Invasive Elint personality'.  I mean, I said it before, and I've just now laid out the logic behind the clearest, cleanest explanation of these events which accounts for all of the facts while requiring no others.  In what way can I more clearly explain this????
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <03-16-14/0232:45>
....

Look, Namikaze, not once did I say 'it's PAB technology and PAB technology alone that's doing this!!'  PAB technology, which is the same tech behind psychotropic IC, is how it is being done - just as PAB / psychotropic IC programming was used in the brainwashing and conversion of thousands of citizens of Renraku America, Seattle Arcology Division.  You wouldn't say then that PAB technology was 'where it begins and ends' - would you??

It's blatantly obvious - as stated in the third point of my Step 3, above - that the guiding force behind these invasions, possessions, or however you want to put it are the Elints that were being e-vivisected - while still fully aware, I expect - in the various black laboratories of NeoNET, Renraku, MCT, and other computer-intensive corporations.  (Yes, including Evo. I suspect the Mars experimental station base to have one of these as a major section - and then the wee matrix beasties got out of their bar codes, so to speak.  And no, Longshot, the mana level wouldn't have any effect.  It's the fact that Mars is the ultimate in isolation labs in Shadowrun.)

'Invasive Elint personality'.  I mean, I said it before, and I've just now laid out the logic behind the clearest, cleanest explanation of these events which accounts for all of the facts while requiring no others.  In what way can I more clearly explain this????

Good Theory. Have to see how on the ball you are....
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Longshot23 on <03-16-14/0512:30>
I accept that ELINTs would be unaffected by a no/low mana environment - I put that up in case the Sybil could be down to spirits, in case there's something we've all missed.

The other thing I just thought of is: a Dissonant free sprite gets possession of a PAB unit . . . and is then incredibly bored because there's nothing to apply the PAB unit to - nothing to use it on.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <03-16-14/0751:31>
PABs where being written about back in 2055, so by 2075 (and I think Wyrm was hinting at this) a "machine" might be too strong a word. By this time, PAB could be reduced down to a program you (in theory) run a deck!
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Namikaze on <03-16-14/1149:23>
....

Look, Namikaze, not once did I say 'it's PAB technology and PAB technology alone that's doing this!!'  PAB technology, which is the same tech behind psychotropic IC, is how it is being done - just as PAB / psychotropic IC programming was used in the brainwashing and conversion of thousands of citizens of Renraku America, Seattle Arcology Division.  You wouldn't say then that PAB technology was 'where it begins and ends' - would you??

It's blatantly obvious - as stated in the third point of my Step 3, above - that the guiding force behind these invasions, possessions, or however you want to put it are the Elints that were being e-vivisected - while still fully aware, I expect - in the various black laboratories of NeoNET, Renraku, MCT, and other computer-intensive corporations.  (Yes, including Evo. I suspect the Mars experimental station base to have one of these as a major section - and then the wee matrix beasties got out of their bar codes, so to speak.  And no, Longshot, the mana level wouldn't have any effect.  It's the fact that Mars is the ultimate in isolation labs in Shadowrun.)

'Invasive Elint personality'.  I mean, I said it before, and I've just now laid out the logic behind the clearest, cleanest explanation of these events which accounts for all of the facts while requiring no others.  In what way can I more clearly explain this????

Reaver hit it on the head.  Unless you know something that the rest of us don't know, you're still spouting theories like the rest of us.  So I'll ask politely for you to stop condescending to the rest of us that are attempting to also espouse theories.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Nightmare on <03-17-14/1021:18>


Reaver hit it on the head.  Unless you know something that the rest of us don't know, you're still spouting theories like the rest of us.  So I'll ask politely for you to stop condescending to the rest of us that are attempting to also espouse theories.

Well, at least someone said what I was thinking lately.  Thanks, Namikaze.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <03-17-14/1258:43>
I accept that ELINTs would be unaffected by a no/low mana environment - I put that up in case the Sybil could be down to spirits, in case there's something we've all missed.

The other thing I just thought of is: a Dissonant free sprite gets possession of a PAB unit . . . and is then incredibly bored because there's nothing to apply the PAB unit to - nothing to use it on.

We have been theorizing on the nature of the resonance a few years ago on this forums. If Resonance is connected to Schumans Resonance phenomena, Mars is one of candidates for this phenomena in this Solar system. So it can be used for laboratory experiments of this kind...as resonance doesnt exist outside planets, almost like manasphere.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Namikaze on <03-17-14/1536:18>
If Resonance is connected to Schumans Resonance phenomena, Mars is one of candidates for this phenomena in this Solar system. So it can be used for laboratory experiments of this kind...as resonance doesnt exist outside planets, almost like manasphere.

Sorry Sichr, but what is Schumans Resonance Phenomena?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <03-17-14/1539:49>
If Resonance is connected to Schumans Resonance phenomena, Mars is one of candidates for this phenomena in this Solar system. So it can be used for laboratory experiments of this kind...as resonance doesnt exist outside planets, almost like manasphere.

Sorry Sichr, but what is Schumans Resonance Phenomena?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schumann_resonances

We were talking about the possibility this is the "prerequisite" of Resonance and Deep resonance, same as manasphere is for Magic.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <03-18-14/0058:30>
Reaver hit it on the head.  Unless you know something that the rest of us don't know, you're still spouting theories like the rest of us.  So I'll ask politely for you to stop condescending to the rest of us that are attempting to also espouse theories.
Well, at least someone said what I was thinking lately.  Thanks, Namikaze.

Well, I honestly have no idea what each of you do or do not know about the Shadowrun universe.  I do know that the majority of the writers that I've had contact with have played the game continuously since 1st or 2nd edition (or early 3rd at the latest), have been fans for that long, have bought and devoured and debated and dissected each sourcebook as it's come out.  We can trace the development of AIs from Morgan's apotheosis by the introduction of Dodger and Twist as X Factors in the original non-hardware-anchored Renraku Seattle Arcology expert program in 'Never Deal With A Dragon', to the appearance of otaku and the hints of the Deep Resonance in the Denver boxed set, to the reawakening of Mirage in 'Psychotrope', and on through the events of Morgan's capture and partial e-vivisection, Dodger's rescue of her, Deus' awakening and attempted hacking of Renraku via Michael Bishop (aka Ronin) in 'Technobabel', the Arcology situation, its 'resolution', the events surrounding the otaku purge and the recompilation of Deus just in time for Winternight to hit all three AI during the events of 'System Failure' - as well as the evolution of what I think I'll start calling 'microAI' in the Matrix 2.0 (4e) and 2.1 (5e).

Do I know anything that isn't published??  No.  Do I have a track record of accurate analysis?  Well, yeah, I do.  Do I know a hell of a lot of Shadowrun information, starting out with my copy of the first printing of the first edition?  Yeah, and I can put it together in ways that make people look at me strange when what I tell them is happening really winds up happening.

I'm not theorizing from information I've only gotten from 4th or 5th Edition.  I'm looking at the fact that an AI can pop up from a frickin' toaster these days, instead of running for decades (in the case of Mirage/Psychotrope) or at least years (in the case of Morgan and Deus) on the largest singular masses of computing power that existed up to that point, with the addition of an unpredictable event, the signature 'X factor' that turned a semi-autonomous knowbot into a full-fledged artificial intelligence.  I'm looking at the fact that the alteration of human brain chemistry and structure is possible from activities inside the world of pure electrons, and that it's technically been able to take place since the Crash Virus hit in 2029 - but the techniques of non-lethal programming weren't published about (e.g. 'existed in-game') until Shadowbeat (2053, officially).

Do I know anything you don't know?  You tell me.  However, my theory is that Elints have escaped from the electronic prisons of the remote, isolated facilities (such as Mars, and the one that Fastjack hit) and have acted to use PAB/psychotropic IC technology, code, and/or techniques to rewrite themselves over the original personalities in control of some very skilled, powerful, and influential people in the world.

In other words, it is my theory, supported by all the available evidence, leaving out none and needing to add none, there are rogue Elints (AI, free sprites, and e-Ghosts) taking people over, using PAB techniques supported by nanohives specifically implanted to assist in those possessions.  Do I think certain dragons (Celedyr) and free spirits (Buttercup) were involved in the activities being performed upon these Elints, either pro (Celedyr) or anti (Buttercup)?  Yes.  Do I think they planned this, caused this, thought this would - or even could - happen?  No, in all cases.  This is highly unpredictable, but not unprecedented.

I don't mind other people coming up with wild speculations.  I am - can be, anyhow - greatly entertained by it.  But if you're asking me to not make fun of people saying that free spirits want the essences of their possessed bodies to be lowered (by implanting a nanohive), or that this is part of some dragon's vast complex master plan (when the only dragon to ever directly interface with the Matrix went bugfuck insane, and though some of the victims seem to be working together to an extent, they certainly haven't shown any allegience to an outside individual like a dragon), don't think for a New York minute I don't have the right to poke holes and ridicule each and every theory - because they either require additional information that we don't have, don't provide for all the information provided, or fail as being the least complex explanation.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Namikaze on <03-18-14/0120:07>
Wyrm, the problem that I have isn't with the amount or accuracy of your information.  The problem that I have is that you seem to think that your theory is the only one that makes sense.  Which means this thread should have died on page 2, when you first presented your theory.  We're on page 32 now.  Because people have other theories, crazy ideas, wild speculations, etc.  Hell, look at the title of the thread: "Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations."

If you're so dead set that your theory makes perfect sense, and the rest of us are wrong, then why not just let us be wrong?  Why do you want to ridicule people's theories?  That's right, you said it:

don't think for a New York minute I don't have the right to poke holes and ridicule each and every theory

All I'm asking is for you to back off with the condescending ridicule, and let us talk about our wild speculations.  They're on-topic, even if they're way off.  There's no proof that any theory is right or wrong, we're just spitballing here.  In some cases, it's nice to have your wealth of information to keep theories on track.  But the fact that you openly want to ridicule these theories just means that you're a bully.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <03-18-14/0200:58>
The problem that I have is that you seem to think that your theory is the only one that makes sense.  Which means this thread should have died on page 2, when you first presented your theory.  We're on page 32 now.  Because people have other theories, crazy ideas, wild speculations, etc.  Hell, look at the title of the thread: "Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations."

Look, just because I've got about a 98% chance of being right doesn't make the 2% go away - or make people read the rest of the thread, or make any wild speculation any less entertaining.  Most of the aforementioned wild speculations are sourced in simply not having the complete information - so yeah, apparently I do know stuff that the 'wild speculations' don't.  That being beside the point, I'm not preventing people from wildly speculating.


If you're so dead set that your theory makes perfect sense, and the rest of us are wrong, then why not just let us be wrong?  Why do you want to ridicule people's theories?  That's right, you said it:

don't think for a New York minute I don't have the right to poke holes and ridicule each and every theory

All I'm asking is for you to back off with the condescending ridicule, and let us talk about our wild speculations.  They're on-topic, even if they're way off.  There's no proof that any theory is right or wrong, we're just spitballing here.  In some cases, it's nice to have your wealth of information to keep theories on track.  But the fact that you openly want to ridicule these theories just means that you're a bully.

No, I suppose you're right - I shouldn't ridicule people, even though I feel (and all the collected evidence points towards) the theory I've laid out is correct.  Go to.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: martinchaen on <03-18-14/0855:29>
<lots of cool stuff I didn't know, so thanks for that!>

Do I know anything you don't know?  You tell me.  However, my theory is that Elints have escaped from the electronic prisons of the remote, isolated facilities (such as Mars, and the one that Fastjack hit) and have acted to use PAB/psychotropic IC technology, code, and/or techniques to rewrite themselves over the original personalities in control of some very skilled, powerful, and influential people in the world.

<less cool stuff, and just a little bit of condescension
All right, you've piqued my curiosity; what material do you (or anyone else for that matter) have that details what has been going down on Mars? Cause I looked hard for that kind of information less than half a year ago, and I couldn't find much at all beyond rumour of an Evo base that subsequently went radiosilent on us, and a CEO that came back from a visit affected somehow.

Care to clue us in, cause I for one would LOVE to know. If there's one thing I've always wanted to explore in a potential campaign, it's a trip to space, and Mars seems like one hell of a ride...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sendaz on <03-18-14/1003:50>
This and more will be coming out in the latest e-novel from John GreyShadows 'Spirits are from Venus, E-Ghosts are from Mars' :P
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <03-18-14/1111:36>
I dont mind havin all those facts together. One thing you have wrong, IMO. They arent targetting "highly skilled, powerfull people". From wat Ive seen in Stormfront and SS, I think their choices are given by availability of target, which depends on Nanoware and possibly some other requirements. The fact only those rich or trained by rich/augmented with some purpose in their mind, can afford this technology, should not be fool us when we seatch for the root cause.
What is more enigmatic to me, than their origin, which I tend to be on the same sode with Wyrm, is their agenda. Do we witness koordinated invasion? Or do we witness only Actions of agressive individuals, and there is much more of those who simply blend in an live their lives like they never been different.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <03-18-14/1115:25>
<lots of cool stuff I didn't know, so thanks for that!>

Do I know anything you don't know?  You tell me.  However, my theory is that Elints have escaped from the electronic prisons of the remote, isolated facilities (such as Mars, and the one that Fastjack hit) and have acted to use PAB/psychotropic IC technology, code, and/or techniques to rewrite themselves over the original personalities in control of some very skilled, powerful, and influential people in the world.

<less cool stuff, and just a little bit of condescension
All right, you've piqued my curiosity; what material do you (or anyone else for that matter) have that details what has been going down on Mars? Cause I looked hard for that kind of information less than half a year ago, and I couldn't find much at all beyond rumour of an Evo base that subsequently went radiosilent on us, and a CEO that came back from a visit affected somehow.

Care to clue us in, cause I for one would LOVE to know. If there's one thing I've always wanted to explore in a potential campaign, it's a trip to space, and Mars seems like one hell of a ride...



From what I have been able to source out on the Mars base, the info is sketchy:

We know Evo started on the base some time in 2064-5.
We know it is underground
We know it has a hydroponic system as well as water and air recirculation
We know that approximately 200 people work and live there.
We know it takes 6 months to get there and back.

what we don't know:

We don't know what exactly they are working on there (other then getting the habitat up and running)
We don't know if anything was "found" on Mars.
We don't know the status or situation of the colony. (is it still running, has it been destroyed, has everyone there been infected. If so, by what?)




Also, we don't know for certain that what is happening on the colony is related to Sybil or not. (I for one feel this might be a Red Herring and an entirely other problem that just happened to happen at the same time as Sybil. Kinda like the AI war (the battle between Deus Morgan/Magera, or whatever) and Winternight were separate events that happened at the same time)
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: martinchaen on <03-18-14/1536:36>
Thanks, Reaver!

I'll go through my notes again, cause I remember a shadooetalk note about the Mars colony going dark, and about some CEO who came back... different... from some form of space trip, and I could swear it was to Mars.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <03-18-14/1540:48>
Thanks, Reaver!

I'll go through my notes again, cause I remember a shadooetalk note about the Mars colony going dark, and about some CEO who came back... different... from some form of space trip, and I could swear it was to Mars.


I believe that was  in Storm Front.... If I recall correctly, the colony went "dark" for about 3 months. and some CEO did in fact come back "different"... but who knows that actually made him different...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Longshot23 on <03-19-14/0258:09>
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but it occurred to me while driving home:

All of the invasive entities so far seem to be more or less complete individuals - if they escaped from 'dissection' facilities I would have thought a lot of them would be bits and pieces in people, and sort of directing their hosts to find others with other parts of a given ELINT (to use Worm's term). Like Deus' post-Arcology network - each person had a portion of the code, and Deus arose again only when the code pieces were reassembled.

In fact, maybe all the ELINTs are, actually, pieces of a greater whole.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <03-19-14/0306:14>
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but it occurred to me while driving home:

All of the invasive entities so far seem to be more or less complete individuals - if they escaped from 'dissection' facilities I would have thought a lot of them would be bits and pieces in people, and sort of directing their hosts to find others with other parts of a given ELINT (to use Worm's term). Like Deus' post-Arcology network - each person had a portion of the code, and Deus arose again only when the code pieces were reassembled.

In fact, maybe all the ELINTs are, actually, pieces of a greater whole.


Possible, but as you say, every entity we know of (the entities that took over the mages, SEARCH in FJ), all seem, as you say, to be complete personalities, and not fragments.

In fact, after reading FJ's little episode (where he was hammering himself) and the discussion between the controlled mages, it almost sounds like a what a rigger does with a drone (jumping in).....  all the talk of "forgetting" skills, or how to do things, the fact that whilke the entity is in control they have no control...



hmmmm maybe rigger is the right term... more like a puppet in a bunraku parlour.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Longshot23 on <03-19-14/0653:41>
Isn't there a shunt - I think that's the term - for bunraku? What performs that function in the 'documented' cases?

Come to that, what are the purposes of the nanohive and genewipe SEARCH demanded that FJ get? And, is this definitely a point of commonality?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <03-19-14/0727:16>
Isn't there a shunt - I think that's the term - for bunraku? What performs that function in the 'documented' cases?

Come to that, what are the purposes of the nanohive and genewipe SEARCH demanded that FJ get? And, is this definitely a point of commonality?

Not really looked in the tech needed for the bunraku dolls... but it is in essence, like an on/off switch for the Dolls original personality, and allows the personality that the client wants to subsume the Doll's body for the length of the client's stay. Then the Doll reverts back to their normal personality, usually with no memories of the events and action that they took part in (which is probably a good thing...)
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Namikaze on <03-19-14/1023:11>
The personalities also seem to start off weaker and get stronger and stronger, presumably until the entire original personality is overwritten.  I think it'd be safe to say that the tech is working kind of like a heuristic virus in this sense.  It's testing it's limits and pushing the boundaries until it takes over completely.  Evidence that these people lose their whole personalities is still not documented, but it would follow that this happens.

So at this point, I'm looking at a few different sources for this kind of thing.  An AI based on personality-altering technology is probably highest on my list.  However, I don't rule out the possibility that something is attempting to get a claw in the meat world via technology.  Something from the Deep Resonance, perhaps.  And finally, an e-entity of some sort.  Perhaps Eliohann, perhaps a bunch of e-ghosts, etc.

I have little doubt that there is something behind all of this though - the fact that this seems to be organized and not so random seems to point toward some sort of design or intent.  However, just because we don't really know of anyone but the really important people getting "infected" doesn't mean that normal people aren't also feeling the effects.  I'm really curious about which book will reveal more of the truth - Data Trails or Street Grimoire?  My gut says this is a purely technological effect, so I'm going with Data Trails but I can't rule out the involvement of something more mystical in nature.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: martinchaen on <03-19-14/1119:40>
Stolen Souls is likely going to cover CFD in more detail than any other book, presuming it's still scheduled for release
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Namikaze on <03-19-14/1220:14>
Stolen Souls is likely going to cover CFD in more detail than any other book, presuming it's still scheduled for release

CFD?  Is that what we're calling it now?  What does CFD stand for?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sendaz on <03-19-14/1227:46>
Cognitive fragmentation disorder as per splintered states pg 56 in sidebar

Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Namikaze on <03-19-14/1239:23>
Gotcha - I haven't had a chance to dabble in Splintered States yet.  :(  It was one of those "do I want more SR4 stuff, or new SR5 stuff" kind of decisions.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Michael Chandra on <03-19-14/1605:20>
Basically Splintered State recaps the effect in a short sidebar as a rough description of what's going on with the guy, without going into finer details and finesses.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: psycho835 on <03-19-14/1705:41>
Just read Splintered State - and I find it weird that SEARCH and the other body snatchers were all working towards some sort of goal, while Dietrich was simply... well, you know. He seemed to be so... disorganized and confused. As if he just got brainfried by IC or something.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: martinchaen on <03-19-14/1744:45>
psycho835
We don't really get a lot of insight into what's causing Dietrich's episodes. Where SEARCH and whatever is/was "infecting", for lack of a better term, Mr. Lanier and the mages is concerned we have much more to go on. It seemed to me as if Dietrich's infection was very much in the beginning/mid stages, with little to no direct interaction between the hostile personality and Dietrich himself.

You'll note that this pattern repeats with the interactions between the Gagarin station employees, particularly Plan-10 as Orbital DK refers to him/her/it, as well as the other corp / security employees mentioned in Storm Front (I forget who they work for..
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: RHat on <03-19-14/1752:31>
Actually, what Dietrich had going on was radically different in terms of presentation than FastJack, given that SEARCH seemed to be wholly Matrix-bound in origin as well as aware of what was going on, while all of Dietrch's personalities were real people who were just as clueless about what was happening as Dietrich was.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: martinchaen on <03-19-14/1825:15>
That's a good point, RHat.

With that, we've got three different scenarios.

SEARCH; a focused, dedicated personality with a purpose ("We are coming" kinda thing)
Gagarin personnel; almost cultlike behaviour after a period of resistance where confusion and frustration was evident
Submarine/underwater installation personnel; similar as above, but with high aggression
Mages; three different entities with unified goal, and awareness of surroundings and host bodies
Lanier; can't recall his symptoms off the top of my head, actually

I wonder if Evo and/or Ares might be the cause of this whole mess.

I mean, Gagarin went dark for 130 days, and while we don't know how long it took for the personnel there to be infected (and assuming it's even related, which I'm pretty sure of personally) we do have reason to believe that all of the subjects so far have had long incubation periods of confusion, memory loss, and general unease, similar to the ones on Earth. What happened to the sample that Ares stole away with the help of Polaris and Orbital DK from Gagarin base just before it went dark?

Is Fastjack and/or Plan-9 (or someone else, even) Patient Zero? Is there even a Patient Zero?

All I know is I want to know what's going on right now, please! :)

The Truth Is Out There!
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: psycho835 on <03-19-14/1833:13>
Actually, what Dietrich had going on was radically different in terms of presentation than FastJack, given that SEARCH seemed to be wholly Matrix-bound in origin as well as aware of what was going on, while all of Dietrch's personalities were real people who were just as clueless about what was happening as Dietrich was.

My point exactly.

Also:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQoRXhS7vlU
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Michael Chandra on <03-19-14/1834:10>
My guess? What Dietrich has is what they were experimenting on. But when FastJack and the others hit the facility, they encountered the things that had gotten away from the experiment, had kept their sanity, and they grabbed their chance.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: RHat on <03-19-14/1838:59>
My guess? What Dietrich has is what they were experimenting on. But when FastJack and the others hit the facility, they encountered the things that had gotten away from the experiment, had kept their sanity, and they grabbed their chance.

It could well be we're looking at something opportunistic piggybacking onto however the e-ghosts crossed over, too.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <03-19-14/1929:54>
lets recap a little bit here... (away from books so going off memory, help me out here guys!)

Sometime back in 2071 Fastjack and a select team raid a data store that is off the grid... Fastjack feels that this event is ground zero.

Plan 9 gets infected, and almost immediately is consumed by the invading personality, forcing Plan-9 to betray contacts that lead them to their capture and/or death

Lanier is also infected, but in this case the spread of the invading "thing" seems slower... more deliberate.. almost as if it is taking it's time or trying to hide?

Fastjack is infected, yet the rate if infection takes almost 2/3 years to overcome him... or at least get to the point that he feels he is losing and needs to remove himself.

 A trio of mages, seemingly under the effects of whatever this is, blow themselves, and their guests up in a deliberate magical attack by one of the infected... and the conversation leads us to believe that they know EVERY skill and ability of their hosts... if not fully control it all the time (one of them mentions "losing" the spell ability for a moment in the bedroom conversation)

Gargin base goes dark for 130 days... the crew is changed.. more aggressive, confused...
The underwater base are even more aggressive and disturbed....

Dietrich comes back with what looks like on the surface as full blown MPD (if you can get 3 psycologists to agree that MPD exists!)


So, if Fastjack is correct on "ground zero" then we have "something" that has spread across the world and into space in 2 years, and infected hundreds....

After 2 years, the  method and mode of infection is impossible to trace (is it spread by a handshake? bodily fluids? only over the matrix? DNI connections, infected nanobots....

****

Did I miss anything?


IMO, I think the transmission method is the Matrix, and I think this also explains the Gargin, Mars and underwater colonies and their random, odd behavior (even for the "invaded?")

These 3 locations would not have the constant background of the matrix humming in their "ear" all the time....

Water a depth, has massive weight (32feet of water = 1 atmosphere, or 14.7 pounds of pressure....depending on the depth of the habitant.... that could be massive! if it was at 1500 feet below sea level, that would be 46.875 Atm of pressure... or almost 700 pounds of pressure!)  I highly doubt that a standard matrix signal could reach that far down.... Mostly likely they have a high intensity transmitter and use it to do burst transmissions. The same thing for both the Mars base and Gargarin base.... (except in those cases it is distance)

So, I think, whatever we are dealing with used these burst transmissions to get into and infect the inhabitants.

The only thing don't know is "Why?" Are these random infections or are these targeted. If there are targeted, why these people? Why not higher up the pecking list? Why Lanier and not Villiers? or Knight himself?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Nightmare on <03-21-14/1022:43>
Don't forget that a large group of those infected have either nano-hives, have gone through leonization/gene-wipes, or have extensive cybernetics ('Jack has tons of headware).
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <03-21-14/1251:05>
And Plan 9 is a Known Technophile....


But the mages? Lanier?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Namikaze on <03-21-14/1307:00>
Well, we don't know for certain that the mages and Lanier had never had Leonization or worked with nanobots.  But yeah they definitely stick out like a sore thumb in the theory that this is a tech-based "virus."  It's probably safer to work with the term "disorder."
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: martinchaen on <03-21-14/1401:36>
I thought Lanier said he had a nanohive. In fact, I'm almost sure of it.

[EDIT]
No nanohive, but extensive augmentations none the less.

Quote from: Corporate Intrigue, pages 142 and 143
Augmentations:(all deltaware) Bone density augmentation 4, damage compensators 6, datajack, genewipe, low-light vision retinal modification, muscle replacement 4, orthoskin 2, platelet factories, smartlink retinal modification, synaptic booster 3, synthacardium 3, toxin extractor 6

The mages are a different story. While technomages (heh) are not unheard of, they're certainly not common. And for three of them to be suffering from CFD at the same time, in close proximity enough of each other to become aware of each other? Those are some long odds.

Then again, if you were a technomage, wouldn't you look for others of your kind to band together with? All evidence supports mages of nearly all traditions to seek out others of the same tradition, so why wouldn't this be true for technomagicians?

[EDIT2]
Aha, that's what I thought! The three magicians were all attending a Society of the Phoenix Arisen party. And what kind of members are this society made up of, you ask? Magicians who have suffered from Essence loss, from, you guessed it, 'ware use amongst many reasons. The founder of the society had lost the spark due to cyberware and drug misuse. In game terms, members must have an essence lower than 6...

Quote from: Storm Front, page 168
Society of the Phoenix Arisen Flames Out!
January 1, 2075—The new year is a time of resolutions and making those changes that will last a few months before the old habits come back and the resolutions are relegated to the annals of our minds to create future subconscious feelings of failure. (Yes, I am here for brutal honesty.) For a small organization of struggling magic users in Bellevue, though, the new year will bring a different feeling and different sense to their future subconscious, a sense of foreboding and fear as they question their sanity after the acts of their brethren last night.

Quote from: Magical Societies, page 18
Society of the Phoenix Arisen
The formation of the Society of the Phoenix Arisen was the personal quest of one nearly burned-out mage, Troy Danthorpe, attempting to regain his magical ability. Danthorpe expressed some magical talent as an adolescent, but cyberware and drug abuse ate away at his ability until it was nearly gone.

I think that rules out that theory.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Namikaze on <03-21-14/1434:59>
Great sleuthing, martinchaen!  Yeah - looks like it's strictly technological.  Still, having three people in the same magical society with the same disorder are pretty long odds.  Maybe there's something that the society did that helped to propogate the disorder, like a step in a ritual.  Maybe even sharing blood.

I feel like we're a step closer to understanding.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: martinchaen on <03-21-14/1441:19>
If there is indeed a sentient intelligence behind the Sybil virus infections / Cognitive Fragmentation Disorder spread, everything we know about epidemiology and pathology is null and void. Instead of a random spread through specific vectors, we could be looking at a targeted, cautious approach. To me, this sounds more like a military plan of attack, where defenses are probed and weaknesses located to be exploited later than it does a virus spreading as fast as it possibly can...

And thanks! I am really enjoying the Sybil plotline, so I'm happy to help where I can.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Namikaze on <03-21-14/1602:46>
It actually reminds me of the Vectors from the Syfy TV show Helix.  It seems like there might be a case made that there is some sort of intellect behind this whole thing, based on the tactics expressed.  We only know of the higher profile "infections" too - I'd be curious to know if this is affecting Joe Wageslave as well.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: psycho835 on <03-21-14/1736:14>
Possible, but not likely. Why would Sybil attack a wageslave? A reasearcher, an exec, somebody with access to resources and/or data, definetly, but a wageslave? Don't think so.


As for propagation of Sybil in the Society - it's entirely possible that one of them was infected and decided to "share the love", so to speak.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Namikaze on <03-21-14/1741:33>
Well, if Sybil/CFD affected Joe Wageslave, that would imply that the cause is not necessarily intelligent.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sendaz on <03-21-14/1851:27>
Well, if Sybil/CFD affected Joe Wageslave, that would imply that the cause is not necessarily intelligent.
That's it!

We corrupt them with sensory overload from hot sims, cold beer and whatever passes for MTV in the 2070's :P

They want the meat package again, then they can have the vices to go with it. ;)
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <03-22-14/0101:42>
Actually, the fact that they've had implantations - presumably with at least datajacks, considering that's the #1 most common implant in the world (I tend to call it 'equal to all other implants combined', but that's my game) - makes the mages of Phoenix Arisen significantly more likely to become targets.  Presume there is a guiding intelligence - or at least 'a plan', which all of the ELINTs have agreed to, and are following.  The power of magic in the 6th world is undeniable; any sort of plan would naturally want to see if magical power couldn't somehow be acquired, and individuals such as these would definitely be prime targets.  These are people with at least some Power left, but who are ... accessible.

Consider also that the invasive ELINTs were expressing difficulty with using the magic that their hosts possessed.  They were actively experimenting with trying to utilize spells ... which makes the explosion killing the three more of an accident during experimentation than anything else.  For the rest of the SR world, this might be the best thing around - the volatile nature of active magic, combined with at least a capability to use it and an ... unfamiliarity with actually doing so.  Early failure may continue to lead to the deaths of both possessed mage and possessing ELINT, and continued failure may lead to complete abandonment of that possibility by the ELINT 'Sybil' host.

On a tangent, this tends to nail down the idea that the capacity for magic itself is a genetic predisposition, and has less to do with the mind/soul possessing the body...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Longshot23 on <03-22-14/0702:56>
Maybe the ELINTs are looking for old-style otaku.

And one of the former Big Three [AIs] is behind it all.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: psycho835 on <03-22-14/0937:42>
Actually, the fact that they've had implantations - presumably with at least datajacks, considering that's the #1 most common implant in the world (I tend to call it 'equal to all other implants combined', but that's my game) - makes the mages of Phoenix Arisen significantly more likely to become targets.  Presume there is a guiding intelligence - or at least 'a plan', which all of the ELINTs have agreed to, and are following.  The power of magic in the 6th world is undeniable; any sort of plan would naturally want to see if magical power couldn't somehow be acquired, and individuals such as these would definitely be prime targets.  These are people with at least some Power left, but who are ... accessible.

Consider also that the invasive ELINTs were expressing difficulty with using the magic that their hosts possessed.  They were actively experimenting with trying to utilize spells ... which makes the explosion killing the three more of an accident during experimentation than anything else.  For the rest of the SR world, this might be the best thing around - the volatile nature of active magic, combined with at least a capability to use it and an ... unfamiliarity with actually doing so.  Early failure may continue to lead to the deaths of both possessed mage and possessing ELINT, and continued failure may lead to complete abandonment of that possibility by the ELINT 'Sybil' host.

On a tangent, this tends to nail down the idea that the capacity for magic itself is a genetic predisposition, and has less to do with the mind/soul possessing the body...

I agree, any body snatcher worth his salt would want to see if he/she/it can hijack somebody capable (at least potentially) of mind control. Imagine, how easy it could be to snatch othter people if you've gotten those guys first!
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <03-22-14/1051:41>
Maybe the ELINTs are looking for old-style otaku.

And one of the former Big Three [AIs] is behind it all.

Interrestin. Are you suggesting that there is possibility that all of possessed metahumans were original otaku?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Longshot23 on <03-22-14/1107:43>
Maybe the ELINTs are looking for old-style otaku.

And one of the former Big Three [AIs] is behind it all.

Interrestin. Are you suggesting that there is possibility that all of possessed metahumans were original otaku?

No, I'm suggesting the ELINTs - the possessing entities - are looking for, or even expecting to be in, old-style otaku. And that they're somewhat confused by the fact that they're not.

Another possibility is that the Society [?] of the Phoenix Arisen was formed with exactly this 'outbreak' in mind.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <03-22-14/1545:35>


Another possibility is that the Society [?] of the Phoenix Arisen was formed with exactly this 'outbreak' in mind.


Now, THAT is a terrifying thought.....
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Nightmare on <03-24-14/1010:55>
One thing though about the mages, most of the Sybil persona that took over the bodies were unable to access the magical abilities or spell formula.  Remember in Storm Front, that's what caused the explosion at the Phoenix Arisen meeting.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: RHat on <03-24-14/2033:34>
One thing though about the mages, most of the Sybil persona that took over the bodies were unable to access the magical abilities or spell formula.
What's your basis for that?  I can't recall anything to point in that direction.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <03-25-14/0042:45>
Nightmare, there's a difference between access and control.  Consider the folliwng parallel: magic is like a fire in a fireplace. An adult can both access and control the fire in the fireplace; they have knowledge and experience, know what to do and not do in order to prevent it from going wild.  An experienced mage, even one who's half-burned-out due to implants, has both the knowledge and the experience to generally control their magic.  A child, a toddler, on the other hand, has access to the fire, but has no real control over it - they don't have the coordination, the knowledge, or the experience to make it do what they want it to do.  This is like an ELINT taking over a person with active magic - they have the access, but not the control.  Any knowledge they may have is completely theoretical, or acquired memories of 'how to' at best.  (Ask someone who hasn't walked in six months if they remember running - they of course do.  Make them run, however, and disaster results.)

The 'Sybil' personae accessed the magical abilities just fine.  They lacked the control, though, and ... kaboom.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <03-25-14/0410:44>
Good thing if they kaboom themselves. Collateral damage in this case are justifiable. Worse it is if they share their learning process with others. Which is still unconfirmed. Are those ELINTS individual beings, or are they parts of one entity? I believe even in that case they wont be able to share skills like Spellcasting or Conjuring. Something tells me that since there are no Skillsofts for this (IIRC) there will be more than download->apply process necessary to bring magical abilities under control.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Marzhin on <05-18-14/1354:06>
Reading through Stolen Souls and really enjoying it (I'm one third through). The Sybil / CFD metaplot feels appropriately threatening and creepy. Of course, while we now have a better understanding of how CFD works we still don't know for sure where it came from.
I'm guessing "Professor Xavier" (almost missed her initials...) had something to do with the virus, but that could be a red herring as well.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: DeathStrobe on <05-18-14/2243:40>
I wonder how CFD works on possession spirits. My assumption is that possession would overwrite CFD, but once broken the CFD personality takes over.

I'd assume since the force of the spirit could also help with resisting CFD, that it'd also work as a good way to slow down the nanites from overwriting the personality of the original host. If that's the case Voodoo practitioners might get a lot of business coming there way.

Makes me wonder if Ares would think bug spirits would be an acceptable "cure" for CFD until a real cure is found.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Michael Chandra on <05-19-14/0533:06>
Reading through Stolen Souls and really enjoying it (I'm one third through). The Sybil / CFD metaplot feels appropriately threatening and creepy. Of course, while we now have a better understanding of how CFD works we still don't know for sure where it came from.
I'm guessing "Professor Xavier" (almost missed her initials...) had something to do with the virus, but that could be a red herring as well.
Yeah, she's active in NEMA right now, judging from a Jackpoint2075 tweet. She had a slightly different name there, so a poke has been sent at the SRO writer on whether it's deliberate or a minor mistake.

Given how CFD is also going after 'Deus his children' according to some, I'm guessing she helped steer it to get her revenge.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Marzhin on <05-21-14/0527:18>
There's something that bugs me in Stolen Souls.

Butch explains in a comment she passed an electrical current in her body to prevent any nanite infection. It proved painful but (as far as we know) effective.

But in the "possible cures" chapter, no one actually tries to use electroshocks or EMP to fry the nanites, nor even mention the possibility. If electrical current can prevent nanites from entering a body, it seems to me it would be worth trying to use the same method to destroy them, before trying to lobotomise the patient or messing with his brain with spirits :)

Of course it would be bad for cyberware, but a fried piece of 'ware seems a cheap price to pay for getting rid of the nanite infection...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <05-21-14/0612:16>
Butch points out that the suckers are fragile outside of a body (i.e. power source); a low-level current would completely overload and wreck them at that point.  The problem with them being inside a body is that a) they're partially shielded, and b) they aren't nearly as vulnerable.  Something along those lines is attempted - a variation on 'Pulse' - but what happens is that they are effectively only shut down for a short period of time.

The main problem really isn't 'how to get rid of them', it's 'how to get rid of them early enough to matter', since the few examples of a successful purge has the victim being basically turned into an incompetent.  Which, really, is interesting, since the victims seem to tend to come out the far end with skills (and to an extent memories) intact ...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Senko on <05-21-14/0700:30>
How about a clean hive of nanite hunter killers?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sendaz on <05-21-14/0722:12>
How about a clean hive of nanite hunter killers?
Check pg 83  in Stolen Souls for this, looks like the Hunter Killer nanites they tried to use were subverted/destroyed by the CFD nanites.

Maybe a whole new design of nanite using alternate makeup so they can not be compromised may need to be developed.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: TonyK on <05-22-14/0007:42>
In Stolen Souls, it's mentioned that nanites draw off of the body's thermal and electric energy.  So lower the body temperature (as is done for some surgeries), add a hibernate spell (in hibernation, central nervous system activity is drastically suppressed), and that may bring the energy below the threshhold for the nanites to remain viable.  Too easy an answer, but speculation sure is fun!
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <05-22-14/0104:05>
trust me, there is more then enough current still active in MEAT to register a charge, thus, there is more then enough power to keep a few nanites alive.


And a few is all you need......
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: DeathStrobe on <05-22-14/0104:22>
In Stolen Souls, it's mentioned that nanites draw off of the body's thermal and electric energy.  So lower the body temperature (as is done for some surgeries), add a hibernate spell (in hibernation, central nervous system activity is drastically suppressed), and that may bring the energy below the threshhold for the nanites to remain viable.  Too easy an answer, but speculation sure is fun!

Well, turning them off isn't entirely the problem. Since you'll have to bring that person back from being almost dead sooner or later and then so come back online the nanites. And fleshing them out might not be the answer either since the internal processes that normally flush them out have been disabled. You might be able to hook up a kidney dialysis machine or something else that filters the blood, but that won't get them all. Some will probably dig into the muscle or brain itself to do their thing.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Furious Trope on <05-22-14/0111:09>
In Stolen Souls, it's mentioned that nanites draw off of the body's thermal and electric energy.  So lower the body temperature (as is done for some surgeries), add a hibernate spell (in hibernation, central nervous system activity is drastically suppressed), and that may bring the energy below the threshhold for the nanites to remain viable.  Too easy an answer, but speculation sure is fun!

Sounds like it's time for a little exploratory surgery to test it.

Any volunteers?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: TonyK on <05-22-14/1708:34>
trust me, there is more then enough current still active in MEAT to register a charge, thus, there is more then enough power to keep a few nanites alive.


And a few is all you need......
Then you pop the survivors with an EMP, and call it a day. :)
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Senko on <05-24-14/0041:31>
How about a clean hive of nanite hunter killers?
Check pg 83  in Stolen Souls for this, looks like the Hunter Killer nanites they tried to use were subverted/destroyed by the CFD nanites.

Maybe a whole new design of nanite using alternate makeup so they can not be compromised may need to be developed.

Ah thanks don't had the book yet.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Mirikon on <05-24-14/0729:20>
I am curious about the interaction with Sybil and spirits. Namely: 1) What happens when someone infected with Sybil is inhabited by an insect or other inhabitation spirit? 2) What happens when someone inhabited by an insect or inhabitation spirit is infected with Sybil?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Furious Trope on <05-24-14/2314:10>
I am curious about the interaction with Sybil and spirits. Namely: 1) What happens when someone infected with Sybil is inhabited by an insect or other inhabitation spirit? 2) What happens when someone inhabited by an insect or inhabitation spirit is infected with Sybil?

Or, with a little less risk to yourself, what happens when a Loa rides(Possesses) someone with a late-stage Sybil infection?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <05-25-14/0458:53>
This is discussed in Stolen Souls as well.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Mirikon on <05-25-14/0816:33>
Where? I saw mention of using spirits and spells to blast the nanites, and definitely saw the mention of what happens to the Infected when they get infected, but didn't see anything dealing with possession spirits or inhabitation spirits.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: psycho835 on <05-28-14/1653:55>
In Stolen Souls, it's mentioned that nanites draw off of the body's thermal and electric energy.  So lower the body temperature (as is done for some surgeries), add a hibernate spell (in hibernation, central nervous system activity is drastically suppressed), and that may bring the energy below the threshhold for the nanites to remain viable.  Too easy an answer, but speculation sure is fun!

Sounds like it's time for a little exploratory surgery to test it.

Any volunteers?
I volunteer Clockwork.

But back to the subject: don't have Stolen Souls yet, but the way you are talking about this prof. Xavier suggests this isn't her first appearance. Who is she?

Also, how about a custom sustained/quickened spell that would create an offensive version of physical barrier that only works on nanites?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Michael Chandra on <05-28-14/1824:23>
Patricia/Penelope Anne/Ann Xavier. PAX. Not that strange the Sybil kids also hold a grudge against Renraku and Deus' kids...

As for Clockwork, he actually did good work in Stolen Souls.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <05-28-14/2036:16>
As he was warned, we are , as I consider his behaviour unacceptable bullying, 2 Michael Chandra posts from thread lockdown. Two posts, so he can get the second warning, from someone not on his ignore list.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <05-29-14/0124:39>
As he was warned, we are , as I consider his behaviour unacceptable bullying, 2 Michael Chandra posts from thread lockdown. Two posts, so he can get the second warning, from someone not on his ignore list.
... whaaaaaaa ???
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: martinchaen on <05-29-14/0126:45>
As he was warned, we are , as I consider his behaviour unacceptable bullying, 2 Michael Chandra posts from thread lockdown. Two posts, so he can get the second warning, from someone not on his ignore list.
... whaaaaaaa ???
CFD in action?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Mirikon on <05-29-14/0240:13>
Did I miss something when I was banned for six months?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: psycho835 on <05-29-14/0313:09>
As he was warned, we are , as I consider his behaviour unacceptable bullying, 2 Michael Chandra posts from thread lockdown. Two posts, so he can get the second warning, from someone not on his ignore list.
... whaaaaaaa ???
CFD in action?
Aaaaand we have a volunteer, ladies and gentlemen!

EDIT: Stupid cell phone... >:(


Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <05-29-14/0314:13>
It is a bit personal. Let me quote some guy from "other forums" to help me explain:
...simply having a different opinion put me on one guys ignore list and I have talked to others who have the same story...

He becomes famous. I met such behavior for no apparent rason, when I asked at least for explanation, my question was met with arrogance. It is difficult to have conversation with someone who is deaf to your arguments, so, as an OP of this thread, I simply dont wat this guy here. It is like...you don`t invite someone who insults you to your living room. First time I sent the PM to FastJack, asking him to deliver the message that Chandra is not welcomed here. Apparently message was unheeded, so I have to do it this way.
And to be clear...I certainly can live without having conversation with this guy. I dont even meet him in PbP section which is my almost only active presence on forums. But IMO this kind of behaviour is intimidating, as he is some kind of CGL representative, and intimidating fans on forums like that, just for having different opinion, this is unacceptable. At least for me.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Elektrycerze3 on <05-29-14/0333:30>
So you are putting a guy on ignore for putting others on ignore... Wow.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <05-29-14/0345:28>
I dont. I just asked him to stay away from this thread.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <05-29-14/0348:40>
Which you have no right to do.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Michael Chandra on <05-29-14/0409:26>
I was informed of this matter by a concerned forum member. I did not know Sichr had requested me to get out of this topic, and while I try avoiding posting in topics made from people on my ignore list, I did not see the need for that here due to the length of the debate. There is a point where a topic derails so much in all kinds of directions that ownership is not something I'd still consider claimable.

However, since my presence here apparently triggers needless hostility, I will withdraw from this topic in specific and the conspiracies subforum in general, after making this rather lengthy post. I am leaving this as notification, and hope people will not start a public debate about it in this topic, as to not derail it any further.



Now, usually I do not post why I put people on my ignore list. However, there's a few reasons why I feel like I have to defend myself here. Namely, the "CGL representative" note and the "my question was met with arrogance" claim.

I am a Missions Demo Team Agent. What that means is simple: I run Missions as official events, getting them for free. It draws a few people but not many, mostly just my normal group. That's all there is to it. I am not in any form of official CGL position, no comment of mine is to be taken as official, and in fact the NDA bans me from making any statements about official non-public information.

Even if someone misinterprets that, I do not intend to intimidate anyone. I quite regret the claim that I am intimidating people for having a different opinion. The ignore list I apply to people which display behaviour I disagree with, often to the point where I feel I can no longer be objective when reading their posts and replying to them. It is partially for self-protection. There's a few forum members that received six-month bans, and if it wasn't for my ignore list, I suspect I'd have been added to that list already. But it is also in part to protect others. If I cannot be objective in a debate, my participation in it serves nobody. Not the person I'm reading in the worst manner possible, not the others reading the topic. It's not meant to be "hurhur, I iz famous, I block you, haha!" in any way, especially since as relatively-new member of this community I'd assume my hot temper is the only famous thing about me. Which my employment the ignore list is meant to help solve.




After seeing the PM I was sent and the posts here, I checked what's in Sichr's two most recent posts. I notice a claim that I met a question with arrogance. Now Sichr is partially correct, in that when he asked me for explanation, I did not recall why at that time and did not want to dig into it. At the size of my ignore list, only the active forum users on it immediately ring a bell when I look at it and wonder why they're on it. In this specific case, once the content of my original notification came up, I did recall somewhat though.

I put Sichr on my ignore list months ago when I noticed him exercise behaviour in a debate that I considered incredibly out of line. I cannot remember the details, but I seem to recall it was him being repeatedly horribly offensive, to the point that I considered it a violation of the Terms of Service, without any reasonable form of provocation for it. It was not a debate I had a personal stake in, but it rubbed me the wrong way so I put him on ignore and notified him of it.

Six weeks after that, he contacted me over at Shadowrun Universe, asking for an explanation. I informed him that I did not recall why, and for my own sake I would not try to find out. He accepted my request to leave me alone. I have included the conversation below.
Quote from: SRT forum: « Sent to: Sichr on: January 06, 2014, 03:53:50 PM »
Hoi Sichr,

Given your violations of the Terms of Service, I'm adding you to my Ignore List.

Regards,
MC
Quote from: SRU forum: Sichr,  February 21
    Hi. I know you have added me to your ignore list back on forums. Well I never actualy understood the reason why, as I am not offending anyone IIRC...not more than what is usualy accepted. I am not proud of such thing and I call for Parley. , feel I should have at least chan e to defend myself. Would it be possible fo settle this, Here or there.
Quote from: SRU forum: Michael Chandra, February 21
    I'd really prefer you didn't try to avoid the ignore function by contacting me through here, please only send me a PM here if you need moderator action to be taken here.

    As for removing you from the list, I forgot why you're on it and deem it better I do not try to dig into why I added you to it, since all that can do is get me riled up again. As such, I don't think I'm removing you, or anyone ever, from that list. It's as much for my sanity's sake as for not getting banned for getting pissed and acting out of line.
Quote from: SRU forum: Sichr, February 21
    I only used this way because you are ignoring even my PMs on forums, and because It was a surprise for me to find myself on your list for "constant violation of TOS" as I wasnt contacted by any mod and we two havent any "argument/ fight" that would be emotional or violent. In fact I considerrd ypu to be one of those more reasonable posters over there. Well. I understand your position and I will avoid any contacts in future. Good bye. Sichr.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <05-29-14/0441:58>
"I will avoid any contacts in future" includes action taken here. Need to say, I wasnt contacted for the violation of TOS by mods, so IMO it wasn`t the case...like MC said...people were banned for months for such behavior, so mods have been active...and would have acted in my my case, if I was violating anything (the only warning I seem to find in PMs is for some image that was considered inappropriate).

Which you have no right to do.
I know I dont own it here well I feel I have the right. YMMV
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sendaz on <05-29-14/0529:49>
The repeat infection factor for CFD is probably the most interesting.  Even if you currently are a Head Crash with one personality overwrite, they are still vulnerable to being rewritten again.  Granted your current batch will resist the new assault but it is possible.

This is a big step up from Infected, a vamp doesn't get changed by being bit by a ghoul, though they could become a carrier.

I know they are saying that there is no 'vaccine' at present using the nanites, any new incursion will have to be slugged out each time.

However, I wonder if they are not looking at this from the wrong angle.   

If we can figure how the personalities are being made, maybe one could download their own personality into the nanite setup and intentionally infect themselves.  Since its the same personaility, not much changes and one might then have a better chance of staving off outside personality incursions. It's not a guarantee but it's a possibility.  Especially since the infection rate/defense seems heavily influenced by the nanite population, if you are chock full of your own setup you will be in a better position to deal with invaders which will probably be trickling in.

Of course they will want to work on making it less infectious outside the base body.

Yes it is way out there, but sometimes looking at different angles opens other doors as well.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <05-29-14/0547:38>
If I was posessing someone, , rewriting his whole personality a snatching his body, I would make pretty sure that original "data" are completely erased and destroyed, otherwise Ill ris that whatever I have done to the victim, it can strie me back the same way. We have yet to see the CFD conflict...multiple personalities fighting over single body
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sendaz on <05-29-14/0628:04>
I thought that is what  Seth Dietrich is experienceing in Splintered States (pg 54 and 55), he shows at least 3 e-ghost personalities haunting him.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: ZeConster on <05-29-14/0809:10>
Which you have no right to do.
I know I dont own it here well I feel I have the right. YMMV
So you feel you "have the right" to close a 37-page topic because someone you doesn't like posts in there - so it's not about what they post, just about the fact that they do - yet you claim Michael is being intimidating, while also getting all the facts wrong about him? You have issues, man.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <05-29-14/0813:21>
You weren`t part of the problem, nor the solution. So please adress me in PM, or get back to topic.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <05-29-14/0854:27>
Really?  At this point, Sichr, you are the problem.  Michael Chandra has the right to post here as much as anyone else, and if he has thoughts, I hope he will continue to post here as well as anywhere else he pleases.  Trying to close out people you have some obscure 'I don't know why' dislike for really isn't kosher.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <05-29-14/0918:03>
It wasn`t me who started this strange war of silence, nor am I happy about this situation. I just put it into the spotlight. You don`t agree with me? Feel free to express that. But I believe I re-act properly and I wont step back. Feel free to start different topic, where this discussion moves, if you feel it is the solution. I wont go that far as to delete this thread, not just because it would be probably renewed from backup by mods and I would get lifetime bye-bye, but because there was lots of brilliant and funny ideas. But I consider this situation solved, and more you insist on derailing the thread from its topic to personal issues, the less it has reason to stay open.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Nightmare on <05-30-14/1012:18>
Can we just get back tot he discussion of CFD and forget whatever happened between people, makes life easier.

Not sure if anyone mentioned this, but did you blokes notice that one of Celedyr's scientists is Pax?  I'm talking about Dr. P.A. Xavier and Dr. Browne's note about Xavier's background.  Makes me wonder if Dues or something similar is behind this....or I could be just pissing in the wind.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sendaz on <05-30-14/1021:25>
.  Makes me wonder if Dues or something similar is behind this....or I could be just pissing in the wind.
I heard he got a contract with Horizon to develop a new angsty spoiled rich teen TM's trid called Beverly Hills 90Deus10. :P
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: DeathStrobe on <05-30-14/1021:37>
I doubt if Xavier is Pax that she has much love for Deus after the Arcology and Crash 2.0. Though it could bring in some dissonance, and that could be interesting.

Wasn't there a Xavier that had a house or something for spike babies? Unlikely to be the same person. Relative, maybe?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <05-30-14/1029:52>
Well there is another one, Puck, who resurfaced in denver during Harlequins rampage, and from his remarks in Stormfront I have feeling that he knew what is going on here. And he is somehow connected to Pax, or am I wrong?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Nightmare on <05-30-14/1032:46>
I don't think Puck wants anything to do with Pax....from what I got off of the Crash 2.0 sourcebook, he didn't exactly enjoy being around Pax one bit.  It just allowed him to get back at Dues at the time.  Unsure though.

  As for him being with Harlequin, I think he might actually be part of the "dark" Harlequin's posse and not actually know it.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Mirikon on <05-30-14/1831:42>
Pax broke away from Deus after he betrayed her and the other Banded. CFD doesn't really fit Deus's style, to be honest. Even if one of the strains was 'him', it is too fragmented, too random, too noticeable. With the Network, it was a pure stealth plot, and except for some leaks in the shadows, no one knew what was really going on until it was too late. Plus, what is the end game for Deus in all of this? Everything Deus did, from the Shutdown right up to breaking into the ECSE was all about survival, putting himself beyond the reach of those who would destroy him. If Deus is still around, everyone thinks he's dead. For a survivor, that's game, set, and match right there. No one hunts you when you're dead.

Pax, on the other hand, is someone I could see doing this. She's fallen to the Dissonance, which means crazy, destructive ideas like this are right up her alley. If the root behind the virus that affects the nanites is Dissonant in nature, then that would explain why even the hunter nanites get rewritten to advance the takeover. The chaotic nature of CFD and the various strains also makes perfect sense coming from Pax. Or she could just be studying CFD for her own ends.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: martinchaen on <05-30-14/1856:14>
Yep; my bet is on Dissonance as well. It certainly would be fitting after all this time...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: psycho835 on <05-30-14/2100:17>
As for him being with Harlequin, I think he might actually be part of the "dark" Harlequin's posse and not actually know it.
You mean his psycho spirit? Yeah, my thoughts exactly. But personally, I don't think Puck is responsible for CFD. He strikes me more as a "nutcase revolutionist" type. Dissonance, on the other hand...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: DeathStrobe on <05-31-14/0029:56>
Puck does actually appear and comment in Stolen Souls. Though its not very insightful. So I'm pretty confident he has nothing to do with CFD.

I guess he could be playing dumb, but I highly doubt it.

Strangely, Eliohann also comments and is also unhelpful. Which is a bit weird since clearly one of the AI's in the fiction clearly notes that it hates Cerberus (and NeoNET) without remembering why. We know NeoNET and Evo are the two big Mega Corp responsible for CFD. And that Eliohann has connections to NeoNET. But why would he be commenting on Jackpoint if he's one of the big bads to this metaplot? Strange stuff.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <05-31-14/0333:20>
hm. to complete the list of Usual suspects here, does anyone know thw cfd infection ratio for Horizon employes? Because we may find out the grow in Consensus participants numbers with every new infected...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: psycho835 on <05-31-14/0401:33>
Here's a theory:
Celedyr is experimenting on e-ghosts. It's not pretty either, disassembling them alive, all that jazz. And then Pax or other dissonant drekhead infiltrates the facility and drops something REALLY nasty into the blender. And then they hire FastJack to infiltrate the place, so that the virus can get access to one of the only people badass enough to fight it (because, c'mon, it's FastJack).
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: martinchaen on <05-31-14/1131:44>
Strangely, Eliohann also comments and is also unhelpful. Which is a bit weird since clearly one of the AI's in the fiction clearly notes that it hates Cerberus (and NeoNET) without remembering why. We know NeoNET and Evo are the two big Mega Corp responsible for CFD. And that Eliohann has connections to NeoNET. But why would he be commenting on Jackpoint if he's one of the big bads to this metaplot? Strange stuff.
Don't forget the rumours that Eliohann is suffering from multiple personality disorder as a result of his Matrix experiences; Both the Cerberus and Neurosis posters are rumored to be Eliohann, after all.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: SlowDeck on <05-31-14/1215:09>
Strangely, Eliohann also comments and is also unhelpful. Which is a bit weird since clearly one of the AI's in the fiction clearly notes that it hates Cerberus (and NeoNET) without remembering why. We know NeoNET and Evo are the two big Mega Corp responsible for CFD. And that Eliohann has connections to NeoNET. But why would he be commenting on Jackpoint if he's one of the big bads to this metaplot? Strange stuff.
Don't forget the rumours that Eliohann is suffering from multiple personality disorder as a result of his Matrix experiences; Both the Cerberus and Neurosis posters are rumored to be Eliohann, after all.

That leaves open the fun possibility that Sybil may also be Eliohann. Maybe a part influenced by Dissonance.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: martinchaen on <05-31-14/1218:35>
Possible, but doubtful, to my mind.

My bet is still on Dissonance, and PAX.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: SlowDeck on <05-31-14/1234:22>
I don't think we should entirely count out that there may be multiple factors. While Dissonance and Pax may have created the initial infection, I don't think the current infection is a result of just their work (this, in turn, would explain some of the friendlier results).

For example, the method of infection; it's via nanites, and in Storm Front the idea of corporations using nanites to influence the shopping decisions of customers came up. In Stolen Souls, we see that Renraku has actually done that, and the posters suspect Deus-code is involved. Well, if the initial infection had accidentally spread into an experimental form of those nanites being developed by NeoNET, it would explain why the outbreak and why they're so heavily infected.

In addition, we know from the headcases themselves that their origin, or at least part of their origin, is within a program called Sybil. We also know that Sybil is recruiting... and that not all headcases feel inclined or close enough to Sybil to join up. The tortured Sybil suggests an origin with Celedyr, which brings the possibility of it being Eliohan with yet another personality into play. But, at the same time, a lot of these headcases are also showing combinant personalities which feature personality traits that don't necessarily hold as much anger at corporations as others do; this suggests the possibility of there being multiple sources for the CFD personalities instead of the singular Sybil; we may be looking at combinant personalities with three or more origins, or even ones with so many origins that they cannot coalesce into a true combinant personality and ending up being pure engines of rage as the CFD personalities continue to duke it out.

So, instead of a singular disease, we may be looking at multiple similar diseases with mostly the same symptoms.

You occasionally see similar to this in nature, specifically among viruses (HIV is the most famous example).
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Mirikon on <05-31-14/1425:50>
Don't forget the rumours that Eliohann is suffering from multiple personality disorder as a result of his Matrix experiences; Both the Cerberus and Neurosis posters are rumored to be Eliohann, after all.
Both Cerberus and Neurosis are confirmed to be Eliohann. His main handle is Cerberus, but he also posts as Neurosis from time to time. It is like having two Facebook accounts, one for 'public' things (or as public as a dragon e-ghost gets), and one for things you want a step removed from yourself. Doesn't mean he has multiple personalities.

And we have no idea whether e-ghosts can be affected by CFD. Since CFD spreads via nanites overwriting the meat brain, I'd have to say that it wouldn't likely affect non-biological systems. This also leads to a possible 'cure' for CFD: uploading the person's consciousness as an e-ghost before it can be overwritten.

As for Sybil being Eliohann, I don't think so. From all accounts, Eliohann's e-ghost has been afforded all the rights and privileges of dragonkind by Celedyr. No, I'd say that Sybil is likely one of the many e-ghosts NeoNET was experimenting on in Albuquerque and other places, such as the containment unit that features in the Project Imago run in Corporate Intrigue. That's just one facility, and the run took place sometime after Miles Lanier had been infected, though I haven't checked to see if it was prior to Fastjack and Riser's infections.

The fractured nature of CFD, and the fact that it competes against itself, suggests to me that there has been a shift within the 'viral code'. Whenever you copy a file, there's a chance that some information may become corrupted in the transfer. Same goes for cloud computing and other methods. This probability is low, but it is not zero. When you copy it again and again (as new nanites are added or converted), while using cloud computing models to distribute processes across the nanites in a person's body, that probability rises substantially, especially when the initial code is potentially a corrupted or Dissonance-influenced e-ghost. This easily explains the multiple strains, and so on.

So here's what we know. Pax has a technomantic ritual at her disposal to drive AIs insane, turning them into ferals or perhaps even dissonants. Celedyr has been capturing and experimenting on AIs (especially e-ghosts) perhaps since the original Project Imago. Remember, that was a Transys Neuronet project, and Transys was Celedyr's company before the merger with Erika and then Novatech. Renraku (and probably others) have been experimenting on social engineering via nanites. Any one of those could easily have sparked this off, but I agree that it was likely a combination of unintended consequences, like how a scientist is working in a lab, and accidentally discovers Teflon. Except instead of making wonderful nonstick cooking ware, you have a nanotech virus that makes a zombie apocalypse look quaint.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: martinchaen on <05-31-14/1457:14>
Mirikon, I direct your attention to the following quotes from various books.

Quote from: Dragon Hunt, p58
For reasons that may never be learned, the one exposure the Dragon had to the actual Matrix was agnoizing, and left Eliohann teetering on the edge of insanity.

Quote from: Dragons of the Sixth World p162
Speaking of yourself in the third person, Cerberus? Perhaps that datajack isn't working as well as it should be, or your time in the Matrix has affected you more than you believe.
- Grier

Quote from: Dragons of the Sixth World p162
Neurosis was the name of the decker on [the run that extracted Eliohann], but he died; Ares black IC scorched his brain. Eliohann picked up the Neurosis name and started using it, just like Cerberus. The dragon's got multiple personality disorder - and probably bigger problems - thanks to the chrome in his head. Animals, dragons or not, were not meant to jack in.
- Burning Chrome

Quote from: Street Legends p120
[Eliohann] was just a kid - whatever that means by dragon standards, anyway - when he was abducted (by shadowrunners) and turned into a guinea pig in an Emerging Futures laboratory. The early-generation datajack they fitted him with was not without complications, which is a nice way of saying that the cognitive dissonance it caused him drove him insane.

Quote from: Street Legends p120
Eliohann became completely immersed in Matrix research, with himself as the primary subject. In fact, he spent so much of his time in the Matrix that it wouldn’t be unfair to call him a junkie. The effects it had on him were severe, and surprisingly well documented. In fact, it’s those side effects that probably prevented Eliohann/Emerging Futures from claiming the bequest in Dunkelzahn’s will. Chances are, he was still working out the kinks and biding his time when Crash 2.0 happened. Anyway, by 2057 Eliohann had already developed the beginnings of a severe dissociative disorder, with symptoms of genuine dissociative personality disorder.

I'm sorry, you were saying? Combine the above with this last quote, and it's pretty clear that Eliohann is a little unstable.

Quote from: Street Legends p121
Like so many on the morning of November 2nd, Eliohann flatlined, his mind shredded by the Jormungand virus, leaving behind only a lifeless, comatose husk.

"his mind shredded". "the edge of insanity". "multiple personality disorder". "cognitive dissonance". "drove him insane". Not terms that are ambiguous, are they. Not to mention that according to Plan 9 and the data file he got apparently has "surprisingly well documented" proof of not only Eliohann's actions, but even those of Celedyr himself.

Add in the fact that Cerberus and/or Neurosis have been tampering with AI, black box systems from sealed floors of the damned SCIRE, and the simple truth that Neurosis made sure to tell Plan 9 that Neurosis was the one who provided the data upload on Cerberus and even wanted to be named as the source, and I think there's some compelling evidence to suggest that Eliohann is not entirely himself.

In fact, the data upload on Cerberus goes on to state that "Eliohann/Cerberus seems to have sublimated his draconic nature entirely, embracing his nature as a creature purely of the Matrix". Plan 9 also comments on the fact that Cerberus might not actually be Eliohann, but Cerberus certainly believes he is Eliohann. And we all know what Project Imago, led by Celedyr and his pet "Eliohann", has been up to...

So yeah, I refute your statement that Eliohann is fully in control of himself by the veritable mountain of evidence from generations of fluff indicating otherwise.

I do agree on your point about Eliohann not being Sybil, though. I think there are other forces at work, there. Also, where is it confirmed that PAX has access to such a technomantic ritual? I don't think I've read that story.

[EDIT]
Although his last statement in the Street Legends file does seem damned creepy now that I think about it, especially since it's stated as Neurosis, not Cerberus.

Quote from: Street Legends p123
> On the contrary. I’m not that special. I’m here for business, like the rest of you. My rebirth - my current state - changes little. I don’t claim to be the first, and I’m sure I won’t be the last. On a microcircuit board, we will all be born again.
> Neurosis
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <05-31-14/1627:46>
Everything we know say than no entity can be affected with CFD, hat has no physical body. E-Ghodt rewrirten by e-ghosts are somthinf out of topic, as talking about e-sapient entities...does even definition of "personality" apply to such beings?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: martinchaen on <05-31-14/1631:21>
Everything we know say than no entity can be affected with CFD, hat has no physical body. E-Ghodt rewrirten by e-ghosts are somthinf out of topic, as talking about e-sapient entities...does even definition of "personality" apply to such beings?
?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sendaz on <05-31-14/1829:32>
The Doc did show that CFD could infect some larger mammals and paracritters, resulting in increased intelligence, but probably not fully able to express the full on personalities or maybe this is just due to the disorientation of being in a non-humanoid form and over time one might see this better expressed.

No mention of an emerged critter, though they probably would respond similarly to how the EK host did.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <05-31-14/1838:27>
Everything we know say than no entity can be affected with CFD, hat has no physical body. E-Ghodt rewrirten by e-ghosts are somthinf out of topic, as talking about e-sapient entities...does even definition of "personality" apply to such beings?
?
sorry for some typos, i am posting pn the road from my phone. basics is...does "personality" apply on AI's? Touring test is one thing, and I believe I know a few people who wont never pass the zeat, well it is designed fir recognizing Artifical Inteligence. Not Artifical Personality. So. would we suppose that AI has some behavioral pattern we call personality that CFD infection Is able to rewrite?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: martinchaen on <05-31-14/1919:33>
Do we know that an AI has managed to "cross over"? If any of the head crash cases in the book are in fact AI then it seems clear to me that they certainly have the capacity to learn behaviours and the like; does that mean they have a personality? I'd say so, considering they are capable of "evolving", at least mentally.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: SlowDeck on <05-31-14/1921:44>
We do know at least one has managed to cross over. That one is in the story Freedom Isn't Free at the start of Storm Front.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <05-31-14/2225:02>
Do we know that an AI has managed to "cross over"? If any of the head crash cases in the book are in fact AI then it seems clear to me that they certainly have the capacity to learn behaviours and the like; does that mean they have a personality? I'd say so, considering they are capable of "evolving", at least mentally.

OK. Now....from the human POV...would anyone would be able to notice the change of behaviour of such entity? My opoinion is NO. As we, IMO, heave difiiculty to understand their "personalities", how would we know they are infected, if they still act in their own modus operandi, but with differtent target? I am not sure if I am able to say it right in english, well, if people can change their mind, how would you recognize that the change in AI behaviour isnt just that, but it is CFD?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: martinchaen on <06-01-14/0002:49>
An AI in and of itself wouldn't be susceptible to CFD, though. As far as we know, the AI only takes over biological hosts, and one of the symptoms is a personality change. I'm not quite sure what you're asking here, to be honest.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: SlowDeck on <06-01-14/0025:28>
Pages 15 and 16, titled Infecting The Overwritten: Battle for the Mind. That section is key, and according to it, any CFD personality that has taken over a host is, itself, potentially vulnerable to being overwritten by another.

Beyond that, it seems to imply that these personalities take over electronic devices, but not what happens to AIs or e-ghosts in them. We know they can overwrite each other on the biological side, but lack information on the technological side.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <06-01-14/0523:06>
An AI in and of itself wouldn't be susceptible to CFD, though. As far as we know, the AI only takes over biological hosts, and one of the symptoms is a personality change. I'm not quite sure what you're asking here, to be honest.

Just trying to eliminate theory that Elionahh is infected. Yes, this "ghost in the machine" is something different from AI, well there may be some of mutual points.
OTOH...
it would be fun to find out, that some CFD personalities are e-ghosts of Crash 2.0. victims, and that Part of Eliohanns consciousness is still out there waiting for proper host...
Or that he finds out, that he is able to use the same mechanism Sybil uses to take back his body...using nanites to upload himself to that piece of vegetable he called body once, and that I can imagine Celedyr or someone else is keeping in some vault...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: martinchaen on <06-01-14/0859:04>
Aha. I would agree in that I don't think the Eliohann e-ghost/electronic entity is infected.

Also, I'm pretty sure the fluff from Stolen Souls strongly indicates if not flat out proves that some of the head crashes are being taken over by e-ghosts.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: SlowDeck on <06-01-14/1040:27>
Flat-out proves. The text notes that e-ghosts have an easier time adapting to flesh-and-blood bodies.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: DeathStrobe on <06-01-14/1315:50>
While on the topic of Eliohann and multiple personalities. There maybe some precedence that people with multiple personalities can manifest two personas on the Matrix in a powerful enough environment.

In the Denver: City of Shadows boxset one of the possible explanations of Bash is that he's actually a second personality of Shiva and is only able to exist do to all the raw computing power of the Denver Nexus.

So it is possible that Cerberus and Neurosis are actually two different Personas in the Matrix, but both came from Eliohann.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Nightmare on <06-04-14/1050:30>
While on the topic of Eliohann and multiple personalities. There maybe some precedence that people with multiple personalities can manifest two personas on the Matrix in a powerful enough environment.

In the Denver: City of Shadows boxset one of the possible explanations of Bash is that he's actually a second personality of Shiva and is only able to exist do to all the raw computing power of the Denver Nexus.

So it is possible that Cerberus and Neurosis are actually two different Personas in the Matrix, but both came from Eliohann.

Actually I think that Cerberus/Neurosis/Eliohann might be similar to what happens to Quicksilver in the old adventure Imago.  The idea that different  parts of the persona are stored in separate parts fits with the idea that Celedyr later bought Quicksilver's deck to  study it.  Just an idea.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Mirikon on <06-04-14/1117:11>
Or we could go with the much simpler explanation: Eliohan has at least two accounts, one as Cerberus, and one as Neurosis, just like I have multiple avatars on World of Warcraft.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Nightmare on <06-04-14/1118:20>
Yeah....he probably loves playing that BTL fantasy game....can't remember what it was called but it was mentioned in Vice.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: martinchaen on <06-04-14/1146:35>
Mirikon
After the rather overwhelming amount of in-game quotes i provided, all of which referencing Eliohann and his apparent instability, that's your statement? It's pretty clear to me that based on the canon Eliohann doesn't "just" have two accounts...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Mirikon on <06-04-14/1213:01>
There are many kinds of insane, martin. And having symptoms of a condition does not mean you have the actual condition. Especially since many of the symptoms and early indicators of dissociative identity disorder are also symptoms and indicators of a couple dozen other mental illnesses. And who is going to to do an in depth psych profile of a dragon? Furthermore, the info in Street Legends comes from Eliohann himself, and do you really want to trust everything a dragon (even a dragon e-ghost) tells you about themselves? Hell, even Plan 9 says later on in that same profile (once he realized that Eliohann gave him this info) that the dragon e-ghost had vetted everything.

Even if you take the Street Legends profile as 100% gospel, there are counter-indicators even within the profile that suggests that even if he did have a full-on psychotic break, he got better over time, especially after he got an upgraded datajack. And how would you check his records before and after the Crash? How many psych evals of a dragon do you think actually survived Jormungand? We have hearsay and conjecture, brought to us by a conspiracy theorist fed info by a dragon. I'd say a healthy degree of skepticism is in order.

Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: martinchaen on <06-04-14/1235:34>
There's a little more day data than just Street Legends...

[edit]
Bah, autocorrect...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <06-04-14/1518:51>
Yeah....he probably loves playing that BTL fantasy game....can't remember what it was called but it was mentioned in Vice.

Tekken 2075?  ;D
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: RHat on <06-04-14/1901:22>
I'm just going to throw one small bit of fuel on the Eliohann fire - the etiology of Dissociative Identity Disorder entails some very, very, very extreme trauma (it's been suggested that what actually happens is that the mind sort of splits just to keep a person alive).  If that first exposure to the Matrix were traumatic enough, it seems possible that it could have led to a case of DID.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Marzhin on <06-05-14/0753:50>
Yeah....he probably loves playing that BTL fantasy game....can't remember what it was called but it was mentioned in Vice.

Dawn of Atlantis? The one that seems to be basically an Earthdawn MMORPG where Harlequin spends most of his time when he's not pursuing vendettas?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Nightmare on <06-06-14/1005:34>
I'm just going to throw one small bit of fuel on the Eliohann fire - the etiology of Dissociative Identity Disorder entails some very, very, very extreme trauma (it's been suggested that what actually happens is that the mind sort of splits just to keep a person alive).  If that first exposure to the Matrix were traumatic enough, it seems possible that it could have led to a case of DID.

Very extreme trauma, eh?  So dying while jacked in....hmmm..I guess that might work.  :P
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: martinchaen on <06-06-14/1010:52>
Technically, Eliohann didn't die :)
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Longshot23 on <06-15-14/0436:53>
Thread Necro!!

I was thinking it would be supremely ironic (among other things) if the Sybil/CFD was something stemming from a shedim-possessed Dr Halberstam . . .
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Mirikon on <06-15-14/0731:03>
Not happening. Sybil is wholly a matrix phenomenon. While it could somehow be possible that 'a shedim-possessed Dr. Halberstam' could have been involved in torturing the AIs, the root cause is in the matrix, or possibly the Resonance. Both are things that a shedim would be ill-equipped to meddle in, if it even cared to. While crazy plot twists sound fun on paper, they are usually full of plot holes that you could drive a semi through. Look for the simple solution, it is usually the right one. We have enough possible players that are actually likely to have been responsible for this without inventing new things.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Longshot23 on <06-15-14/1203:19>
Wild speculation, remember?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <06-15-14/1241:19>
Wild speculation, remember?

In that case:

ITS THE EVIL PETTING ZOO BUNNIES!!!
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Longshot23 on <06-15-14/2250:10>
Wild speculation, remember?

In that case:

ITS THE EVIL PETTING ZOO BUNNIES!!!

Not the Vorpal Sheep?  :o  ::)
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: psycho835 on <06-16-14/0127:55>
Wild speculation, remember?

In that case:

ITS THE EVIL PETTING ZOO BUNNIES!!!

Not the Vorpal Sheep?  :o  ::)

A what now? Would Holy Hand Grenade work against those?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: DeathStrobe on <08-06-14/2357:29>
I'm reading through System Failure, and I think I remember people speculating about this in this thread, but I figure I'd bring it up just in case it wasn't. Ronin and the handful of people he was able to save from the Network, they were trying to merge Megaera with meta humanity to make a metahuman/AI hybrid. The only known "cure" for CFD is to compromise with the AI and allow the host and AI personalities to merge into one. This sounds exactly like what Ronin and companies agenda was. I don't think Ronin was ever reported as dead, and since he was an Otaku, he'd probably be a Technomancer now. He could also be following the dissonance if he really thinks this is a good idea and have a cult like following of AIs. If he was really pursuing this agenda of combining AI and meta humanity, he might have helped with the construction of CFD.

I'm also a bit surprised at how sympathetic they make Pax and Puck in the events of System Failure. Sure they were the main cause of the crash, but they were doing it for the "right" reasons...kind of...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <08-07-14/0031:53>
... are you reading the same System Failure the rest of us did?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: DeathStrobe on <08-07-14/0116:23>
Puck just wanted to make the Matrix a better place, since the real world was so messed up. It wasn't until he started to see Deus was a big jerk through the Network that he joined up with Pax.

And Pax just didn't want to be mundane. If you got a ticking time bomb like fading, would you really do nothing to try and keep what little you have that makes you special?

Not saying what they did was right. But they be crazy Otakus. They have a deep connection to the Matrix. They just wanted to keep that going.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <08-07-14/0200:11>
... uh ... that's ... one way of reading it.  I'm not saying that elements of those don't exist, but neither of those are the driving elements in those characters' stories ...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Zwischenzug on <09-29-14/2132:19>
This thread is awesome. I apologize in advance for resurrecting it, but I believe the following has not yet been mentioned.

In Brainscan, the follow-up to System Failure, a certain Dr. Olivia Marchand is mentioned. The lead on Cross Applied Technologies' Project Legion, she was one of two survivors of the four person team who attempted to merge their personalities through some sort of shared ASIST interface.

The result was two team members dead of massive autonomic systems failure, one member in a coma, and Dr. Marchand displaying some pretty serious CFD like symptoms.

As the events of Brainscan take place mere months after the shutdown, this puts us at some point in 2060. Could Dr. Marchand, or the comatose Cross Applied Sciences scientist, be a possible Subject Zero?
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <09-30-14/0000:43>
.
..
...

NO!!! IT'S THE EVIL PETTING ZOO BUNNIES I TELL YOU!!!!


Actually, you may have something there.... but that doesn't explain why so many CFDs have a deep hatred of some Corps...

But somehow, I think you may be on to something...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Zwischenzug on <09-30-14/0005:37>
The good Dr. does display some rather drastic personality changes, none of which I'd think we're consistent with the researchers of her team. Of the four, Legion is the most sympathetic to Deus at the time of Brainscan, but what happens to her and her various personalities is determined by the GM and/or players as of the end of the adventure.

The comatose Project Legion team member, however...
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <09-30-14/0030:35>
Yeah, Marchand is nowhere near 'patient zero' for this one.  She experienced a severe MPD issue due to, y'know, having several other people (actual people) trying to inhabit her brain at the same time as her, but nanotech wasn't involved.

The best 'patient zero' scenario is the lab break-in by Fastjack &. Co. down in the PCC.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Zwischenzug on <09-30-14/0629:56>
How can you so casually disregard the possibility of Project Legion begin the source of CFD? As far as I know, it's the first documented instance (perhaps excepting whatever Deus was working on in the SCIRE) of multiple personalities physically merging in a single metahuman mind.

Who knows what this could have caused in the long run. Sure, CFD presents with nanotech symptoms now, but like any terrible disease there's no telling where the origin point might have been if one accounts for the potential of mutation.

When I read the section on Project Legion, it figuratively screamed "headcase" to me. I will agree that FastJack's experiences in Albuquerque were definitely related, but I don't necessarily think of it as being the source; how else do you account for the Gagarin base, Richard Villiers, and the unnamed seamen? The timeline just doesn't add up as far as I'm concerned.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <09-30-14/0729:16>
Rather easily, really.  In metagaming terms, because 'active nanotechnology' in the form of nanite hives and the like was only really then being conceptualized; it was decided that the technology would be given a boost by the 'Mad AI in the Emerald Tower'.  So the very concept of nanites taking over a brain hadn't been forwarded.  The idea of an AI taking over a brain had - because that was the entire idea behind RA:S.

Moving in-game, though, just as easily - because when it comes to a disease (which CFD technically may not be, but which it functionally behaves as), you do not have Patient Zero infected and out and about twelve to fourteen years before the next cases.  Further, at the time of Project Legion's existence, there were a grand total of three AI, one quasi-documented e-ghost, and no known 'free sprites' at all; these are the code-sources for the CFD personalities.

You are muddling effects with causes.  If all your experience of people stumbling around is due to them being drunk, if you find me stumbling around you may assume that I am drunk, but the effect - me stumbling around - does not require the same cause of which you are familiar (being drunk).  Just in regards to me, there are at least two typical causes - I woke up less than half an hour ago, or I have a splitting headache, the latter of which itself could have several different causes.  Since I don't drink, however, the cause is never going to be that I am drunk, no matter your familiarity with drunk people stumbling around.

That Dr. Marchand is exhibiting dissociative identity disorder does not mean she has been brainjacked by psychotic AI / e-ghost personalities, any more than the original Sybil (Shirley Ardell Mason) might have been back in the 1920's.  While I can concede that I haven't been so determined to find Patient Zero that I've timelined the CFD events, I'm absolutely certain that it won't have happened before the 4th Edition start date (of what, 2068, 2069?) at the absolute earliest.  The technology simply wasn't developed, the inhabiting intelligences simply didn't exist to take over minds.

Sorry.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Zwischenzug on <09-30-14/0806:25>
And you can be absolutely certain that the current attack vector (nanites) is consistent with the originator of the disease? Do you know something I don't? Because if you don't, as I suspect, then neither of us know the real root cause of CFD and we are both just speculating here. If you somehow have some insight I am not privy to as to the definitive source that can be conclusively proven, please do share.

I accept that you have an established position, but I will politely disagree that the origin of what we now know as CFD 1. must take place at some point after 2068, 2. must have been purposefully designed and/or the result of hostile intent, and 3. must have originated from or with nanotechnology. The simple fact that the possibility of Matrix induced multiple personalities (not multiple personality disorder, where a single mind is fractured into several aspects of itself, but actual honest-to-god separate, unique personalities existing within one psyche) occurs as early as 2060 with Dr. Marchand provides me with enough reasonable doubt that something, an unknown x-factor, could have taken place between Project Legion in 2060, the Crash 2.0 in 2064, and the first known symptoms of CFD (at some point before 2075). What that is I don't know, but I do know for a fact that I don't think these events cannot so easily be dismissed.

You'll also note that I did specify that the potential of mutation most certainly exists; while Dr. Marchand lacks some of the distinguishing features of CFD as we know it presents in 2075, there's no telling how CFD presented in it's infancy, or if it even began as what we now recognize it as.

Since neither of us know for sure, I'd like to ask you politely to leave that overbearing tone you so often exhibit at the door. Feel free to state your opinion, but please do not state your opinion as fact when we both know it cannot possibly be so.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <09-30-14/0852:25>
Y'know, I was casual.  You attacked me; I stayed, you know, pretty relaxed.  If you wanna read 'overbearing tone' into every single one of my posts, you go right on ahead, but you better understand that the tone is in your head, not in my writing.

And yeah, I can be absolutely certain that Marchand wasn't the first victim, and it's pretty clear I do know something you don't.  Make up theories all you like, but I suggest you clear them through BOTH the 'history of the 6th World' buffer and the 'what the game designers came up with and when' buffer, because while with some things they do really leave things wide open (fates of the Big Three AI, half the stuff from Dunkelhzahn's Will, etc.) there is other stuff that they pretty thoroughly nail down.  In this particular case?  Brainscan, pp. 69-70, 'The Minds of Olivia Marchand'.  She didn't get personalities crammed into her head, her own personality fractured.

By the by, the next time you ask 'Do you know something I don't", then answer yourself with 'if you don't, as I suspect', understand that I have been reading and playing this since the year it came out, and that people who do write for the game ask me questions, and that when posters here talk about 'people who know the backstory of Shadowrun', I'm invariably one of the first two people mentioned.  So yeah, the chances of me knowing something you don't are pretty damn good, and considering that my deductions have about an 85% accuracy rate, there's a reason people listen to what I say.

But hey, nobody's making you listen to me - or take umbrage with how I write.  You're doing that all on your own.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Namikaze on <09-30-14/1235:22>
By the by, the next time you ask 'Do you know something I don't", then answer yourself with 'if you don't, as I suspect', understand that I have been reading and playing this since the year it came out, and that people who do write for the game ask me questions, and that when posters here talk about 'people who know the backstory of Shadowrun', I'm invariably one of the first two people mentioned.  So yeah, the chances of me knowing something you don't are pretty damn good, and considering that my deductions have about an 85% accuracy rate, there's a reason people listen to what I say.

Yeah, Wyrm is one of those folks that I love to see posting in the Secret History section, simply because of his vast knowledge of the game's world.  He's not all that keen on the rules of the world though, so if he's posting somewhere else just ignore him.  :P  Kidding!
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <09-30-14/1828:47>
Well I dont know what changed since the times this forums have been alive, but I dont recall Wyrm to sound this arogant before, nor in thread, that is called "Wild Speculations"
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: DeathStrobe on <09-30-14/2103:08>
I don't know Wyrm. Tossing out 85% accuracy rate and you pretty much instantly dismissing everyone's theories. If that's not condescending...I don't know what is. I'm not saying you don't know your stuff, but you don't seem very receptive to other people's input on the setting; at least on this topic.

Anyway, Zwischenzug's connection isn't inaccurate. There could be a technological connection there. BTL's have also been giving people multiple personalities for decades. It's highly possible that an AI, psychotropic conditioning psychologist, dissonant technomancer, e-ghost, Dunkelzahn's Will (this is a joke BTW), or whomever, found that research and used it to rewrite the nanites to write people's brains.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Reaver on <09-30-14/2308:49>
(Gotta say Wyrm, I have been noting a little... exasperation in your posts of late. And I know your posting tone! Hope things are well in the personal life)

I see what you are saying Stobe, and while that would make research the nucleus of this 'virus', that still wouldn't make the good doctor patient zero.....

So much for that theory :(

<goes back to looking out for evil petting zoo bunnies>
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <09-30-14/2322:38>
Sorry, DeathStrobe, but I don't 'instantly dismiss(...) everyone's theories.'  There are a lot of things that I get right; there are a lot of ideas that other people have that prove close to the mark.  I actually explain my theories pretty closely, and refer to events (though not to the 'document/page' level) to let people review the information and make their own decisions.  There are plenty of people who disagree with me, and that's just fine, because 85% right means 15% wrong, and until books come out, I can't ever know which 15%.  Take CFD - I was way off base on how it spread, i.e. that there was a physical element; as a writer and player, I would have found it far, far more frightening for it to be significantly, even exclusively, Matrix-based instead of requiring actual physical infection.

Also, if you don't kick the tires and slam the doors (as it were), you don't know if a logical construction - the technical term being 'argument' - is either sound or capable of standing up to a thorough critique - again, the technical term for which is 'attack'.  Do I attack other people's arguments?  Yes.  And if they're sound arguments, they'll withstand the attack, and I'll learn something.  It ain't like I haven't ever been wrong before, and I admit when I am.

But I don't dismiss other peoples' theories.  To paraphrase Jim Carrey's Riddler's statement to Tommy Lee Jones's Two-Face, "If I did, I wouldn't learn nothin'."
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Namikaze on <10-01-14/0138:11>
I want CFD to be somehow related to Drop Bears.  Because Drop Bears scare me.  And CFD scares me.  Correlation?  :P
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <10-01-14/0437:11>
I want CFD to be somehow related to Drop Bears.  Because Drop Bears scare me.  And CFD scares me.  Correlation?  :P

Dropbears are natural nanite-carriers. This fact is only waiting to be discoverd. Maybe you beat science with right intuition somehow.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sendaz on <10-01-14/0537:54>
Maybe if CFD is the disease, Drop Bears are the cure? :P
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <10-01-14/0600:48>
Maybe if CFD is the disease, Drop Bears are the cure? :P

They KNOW it. But they won`t tell anyone.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Wakshaani on <10-01-14/1244:44>
Maybe if CFD is the disease, Drop Bears are the cure? :P

They KNOW it. But they won`t tell anyone.

Drop Bears are well known to be jerks that way.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: psycho835 on <10-01-14/1349:23>
Drop Bears have been confirmed as reservoir hosts for CFD. Perhaps a cure could be created given access to some... samples.



...Now THAT would be one hell of a run.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sendaz on <10-01-14/1354:28>
You are gonna need a bigger paycheck.
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: Sichr on <10-01-14/1541:33>
Using Occams razor to find the most simple way to connect CFD to Drop bears:

Cognitive Fragmentation Drop Bears
Title: Re: Sybil virus: Clues and wild speculations
Post by: psycho835 on <10-01-14/2054:49>
Cognitive Fragmentation Drop Bears
...Yeah, we're fragged.