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Question Regarding Disallowance of Infected Player Characters

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VileTerror

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« on: <06-27-11/2219:40> »
I was curious as to the reason Infected characters were not permitted for use in Shadowrun Missions. 
More to the point . . . would there be any way to make an exception to this rule with a character who was born Ghoul, has the Infertile Infected Quality, and has a fully paid Permanent Middle(or +) Lifestyle or Permanent Middle(or +) Necessities, including the +30% Nuyen cost?

If it's an issue of being overpowered, perhaps an additional BP cost could be applied for SRM Ghouls.  For instance, I've built a Ghoul with only 300BP which I'm rather fond of.

If it's an issue with "personal Qualities" as expressed in the SRM's FAQ, then wouldn't the Permanence of the Middle (or higher) Lifestyle compensate for that and allow the GM to remain focussed on the group-based roleplay experience?  Was there anything else from the Ghoul Metavarient Quality which would fall under the "personal" caveat? 

If it's an issue with inadvertently infecting other players' characters, then the Infertile Infected Negative Quality (not sure how it's a negative, frankly) would compensate for that.  And what about all those potential situations in a standard SRM run in which NPC ghouls make an appearance?  Or are all Infected characters, including NPCs, disallowed in SRM?

I believe that the social implications and the internal party conflict could enrich the game experience for all players.  ie: 
  Player Ghoul:  "Cool your jets.  I can't infect you." 
  Player 'Runner:  "Right, and I'm supposed to take your word on that?  Stay the hell away from me!" 
  Player Ghoul:  "Sure.  I'll keep those words in mind when you're rapelling line snaps and I'm the only one who can catch you."

Finally, if it's a matter of "we can't make ANY allowances.  It would set a precedence" . . . well then, I've got nothing to defend my case with that sort of stance.


I would very much like to begin participating in Shadowrun Missions, and the ghouls really resonate with me on a personal level.  I suspect I'm not the only player who might feel this way.

Well, at the very least, I hope this is food-for-thought.

FastJack

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« Reply #1 on: <06-27-11/2336:03> »
Well, at the very least, I hope this is food-for-thought.
I think it has more to do with the "eating your teammates" problem. ;)

Charybdis

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« Reply #2 on: <06-28-11/0001:20> »
I was curious as to the reason Infected characters were not permitted for use in Shadowrun Missions. 
More to the point . . . would there be any way to make an exception to this rule with a character who was born Ghoul, has the Infertile Infected Quality, and has a fully paid Permanent Middle(or +) Lifestyle or Permanent Middle(or +) Necessities, including the +30% Nuyen cost?

If it's an issue of being overpowered, perhaps an additional BP cost could be applied for SRM Ghouls.  For instance, I've built a Ghoul with only 300BP which I'm rather fond of.

If it's an issue with "personal Qualities" as expressed in the SRM's FAQ, then wouldn't the Permanence of the Middle (or higher) Lifestyle compensate for that and allow the GM to remain focussed on the group-based roleplay experience?  Was there anything else from the Ghoul Metavarient Quality which would fall under the "personal" caveat? 

If it's an issue with inadvertently infecting other players' characters, then the Infertile Infected Negative Quality (not sure how it's a negative, frankly) would compensate for that.  And what about all those potential situations in a standard SRM run in which NPC ghouls make an appearance?  Or are all Infected characters, including NPCs, disallowed in SRM?

I believe that the social implications and the internal party conflict could enrich the game experience for all players.  ie: 
  Player Ghoul:  "Cool your jets.  I can't infect you." 
  Player 'Runner:  "Right, and I'm supposed to take your word on that?  Stay the hell away from me!" 
  Player Ghoul:  "Sure.  I'll keep those words in mind when you're rapelling line snaps and I'm the only one who can catch you."

Finally, if it's a matter of "we can't make ANY allowances.  It would set a precedence" . . . well then, I've got nothing to defend my case with that sort of stance.


I would very much like to begin participating in Shadowrun Missions, and the ghouls really resonate with me on a personal level.  I suspect I'm not the only player who might feel this way.

Well, at the very least, I hope this is food-for-thought.
I'd be interested to see the 300BP Ghoul build.

Also, don't ghouls (and other infected) have a bounty on them in UCAS, which would be an issue for most Shadowrun teams, and likely end up with a new PC being delivered to a cop-shop in short order.

I love the alternate character-PC's from Runners' Companion, however even never having played any official missions, I can definitely see how they can easily cause unnecessary complications....

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VileTerror

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« Reply #3 on: <06-28-11/0030:40> »
I wasn't aware of the bounty, but I can definitely see how that could cause some problems.  Then again . . . doesn't /every/ Shadowrunner have a bounty on their head in one form or another?  Criminal activities and all that.  I mean Technomancers are still somewhat of a novelty in 2072, right?  I'm sure there are corps who would still pay to have them handed over for study, especially if they don't have any valid SINs.

I'm also fairly certain that ghouls, as long as they're not brain-damaged, have enough common sense and willpower not to go about killing and eating allies.  That's not to say that other 'Runners might not be more on-edge and paranoid knowing that they have a cannibal watching their back, but again I think that'd merely /add/ to the enjoyment of the gaming sessions.

I've posted the build in the appropriate forum at your request, Charybdis.  I'm not 100% sure if it's legal for gameplay (I think there may be a few items which exceed the starting Availability limits, for instance).
Here's the URL:  http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=4043.0




Edit:  Sorry, Charybdis. 
« Last Edit: <06-28-11/0038:25> by VileTerror »

FastJack

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« Reply #4 on: <06-28-11/0747:15> »
Well, considering that Ghouls have a LEGAL bounty on their head, and there are a lot of Shadowrunners with no compunction about hunting them...

You can kinda see the problem.

wylie

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« Reply #5 on: <06-28-11/1721:12> »
I know several players who would love to play ghouls, myself included, just for the fun of it. It doesn't help CGLs when the authors use a ghoul as character, even if justa supporting one, and players are not allowed ghouls.

there is great fixer who is vampire from 1st ED. sometimes I buy that conrtact just for the flavor

of course if you let ghouls, then you got to let the other vamps, drakes, and shapeshifters in....

I understand it is about game balance (& PCs turning their new buddy over to LoneStar. Hey I have mislead teammates to keep them from getting me killed)

on playing alternate races: its all in how you role play
           I have played a Sas, and none of the teams realize because I played him a certain way to avoid suspition. It was fun
          my daughter has played a Pixie. when she got shot in the last fight, the team panicked big time
           a friend of mine played a blue dwarf, or a smurf. with a chainsaw. enough said

here is my request: either playtest some of these mission forbidden races at cons, or show me playtesting records that they either proved too powerful or wrecked the somehow

FastJack

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« Reply #6 on: <06-29-11/0743:59> »
I know several players who would love to play ghouls, myself included, just for the fun of it. It doesn't help CGLs when the authors use a ghoul as character, even if justa supporting one, and players are not allowed ghouls.

there is great fixer who is vampire from 1st ED. sometimes I buy that conrtact just for the flavor

of course if you let ghouls, then you got to let the other vamps, drakes, and shapeshifters in....

I understand it is about game balance (& PCs turning their new buddy over to LoneStar. Hey I have mislead teammates to keep them from getting me killed)

on playing alternate races: its all in how you role play
           I have played a Sas, and none of the teams realize because I played him a certain way to avoid suspition. It was fun
          my daughter has played a Pixie. when she got shot in the last fight, the team panicked big time
           a friend of mine played a blue dwarf, or a smurf. with a chainsaw. enough said

here is my request: either playtest some of these mission forbidden races at cons, or show me playtesting records that they either proved too powerful or wrecked the somehow
Again, it's not that they are too powerful or game-breaking. It's that they could easily be abused. Let me give you an example.

Tony plays a ghoul in a GenCon Mission. During the mission, him and his teammates are out and about, doing their thing. They go to the meet with the Johnson when he notices Tony's character: Holy shit! It's a ghoul! Kill the thing! Kill it!

That may be a bit extreme, or the team knows better than to take Tony along on the meet with the Johnson. Okay, go that. So, the team's doing some legwork for the mission to try and find out how deep the drek is that they jumped into. The team sends out feelers with their contacts, when the contacts ask them if they are still hanging around with "that creature" and let's them know that they know of a 100,000¥ bounty for ghouls, no questions asked.

Maybe the team isn't that hard up for cash, or they may even have some of that honor thing the TriD keeps talking about. Either way, they pass on the bounty. Now, a little later, they get in a firefight with Knight Errant due to a misunderstanding of local traffic laws and the use of rocket-propelled grenades. Sara, playing an elf mage, gets hit with a stray bullet, and Tony's the only one close enough to stabilize her. So, our friendly ghoul runs over to her, breaking out the medkit to make sure she doesn't die. Unfortunately, as soon as he touches Sara's PC, she has to make Resistance test against HMHVV and, in her weakened state, it doesn't look good for her. Now we have two ghoul characters!

Are these all extreme? Yes. Could they still happen? Of course. The problem isn't that ghouls (or other infected) aren't fun to play, or overly-powerful, it's that they CHANGE the nature of the game they are involved in when they are used. And since Missions are meant to be used by anyone, anywhere, with minimal alterations, they simply don't fit into the spirit of the game.

Bull

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« Reply #7 on: <06-29-11/1331:51> »
The other problem is...  You're playing with strangers.  WHat happens when one of them, who doesn;t care about you or your character, decides to cash in the bounty?  We spend the next hour in Player vs PLayer combat.

DWC

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« Reply #8 on: <06-29-11/1411:37> »
I doubt it'd be an hour.  It'd probably be about two minutes, tops.

Medicineman

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« Reply #9 on: <06-29-11/1530:57> »
Most of my Chars would shoot a Ghoul on sight.
Most out of selfpreservation, some out of Fear.
Some of my Chars (the rather Legal ones) would cash in the 1500 ¥ Bounty

Hough !
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wylie

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« Reply #10 on: <06-29-11/1828:20> »
oh, I understand about the bounties & all
try explaining that to a 14 year old. my son wants to paly one very badly, and it took awhile to get him to understand what could happen

even his sister said she would turn his character in for the bounty.

thanks the examples, though extreme, they both show how a game could get turned on its head through the butt and out again

I am cool with those answers

FastJack

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Charybdis

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« Reply #12 on: <06-30-11/0036:13> »
even his sister said she would turn his character in for the bounty.
Hard-Core. ;D
What, you've never had siblings?

My brother would turn me in for a dime-bag of weed....
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CanRay

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« Reply #13 on: <06-30-11/0041:12> »
Nice brother.  I've seen lesser offers on the table.
Si vis pacem, para bellum

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Charybdis

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« Reply #14 on: <06-30-11/0058:32> »
Nice brother.  I've seen lesser offers on the table.
I didn't say it had to be good weed...
'Too much is never enough'

Current PC: Free Spirit (Norse Shamanic)
'Names are irrelevant. Which fake ID do you want me to quote from?'

Phreak Commandment V:
If Thou Be In School, Strive To Get Thine Self Good Grades, For The Authorities Well Know That Scholars Never Break The Law