[The_Gun_Nut]

This came up in another thread (found herehttp://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=388.0) regarding fully automatic fire of grenades.  It is entirely possible to construct (both in SR and IRL) a grenade launcher that is fully automatic.  While the RL one I'm thinking of only fires 3 grenades a second ("only") the SR version could potentially fire much faster due to technological increases.  And while the rules in Arsenal provide the modification or creation of a fully automatic grenade launcher, actually using the thing is not covered.

So, my question is this:  How would we go about modelling automatic grenade fire in Shadowrun rules?
First Caveat:  That automatic grenade fire is possible (don't take my word for it, check for yourself in the Arsenal book under Firing Mode Selection pg. 151 and IRL on the internet)

Second Caveat:  The rules model needs to fit in with established SR rules; I.E. not tacked on extra rules from another game, but existing within the framework of the rules as presented.

My personal preference is that it needs to be accurate, but quick to resolve.  Of course, that's what we all strive for, but sometimes we all (myself, included) need to be reminded of keeping it simple.

[anotherJack]

Second Caveat:  The rules model needs to fit in with established SR rules; I.E. not tacked on extra rules from another game, but existing within the framework of the rules as presented.

My personal preference is that it needs to be accurate, but quick to resolve.

Something like you launch your three grenades, you make it work like just one big grenade, with same dispersion, but an increased area and DV : let's say +50% area and DV. If you can launch only two (short burst rule), you increase both DV and area of effect by 25%. So it works like the guns bursts, but instead of increasing DV by one, you increase area and DV by 25% for each grenade.
Works only with three grenades of the same type.
If you dont resume the three grenades in one, I fear it'll drive you and your GM crazy ^^"

[Magus]

This would be problematic at best with the way the Scatter rules are setup. Even with Airburst Link you still have scatter. This is offset even more with the recoil rules on heavy weapons which is what grenade launchers are classified as. According to Arsenal, uncomped recoil is doubled on all heavy weapons. So you are effectively cutting down your dice pool which will make scatter even worse. Imagine firing a Long Burst of 10 grenades with uncomped recoil thrown in. Ewww, you would have potentially grenades bouncing back at you and exploding due to the scatter, because you would have to roll scatter on each one I would imagine.

[The_Gun_Nut]

Yea, I was thinking that the recoil might help you with scatter (larger area covered).  But unless you are firing at something less than 25 meters away the grenades shouldn't scatter back on you.  Not that shadowrunners are known for presence of mind during nasty firefights, but I don't envision someone doing that more than once.

The weapon that sparked the interest was mounted on a tripod, which supplies 6 points of RC, so the full auto 10 burst would only have 3 points uncompensated, generating a -6 modifier.  A strong troll with a gyromount could carry it, of course, which would have 6 points of RC from the gyro and whatever the troll had from strength as RC.  Enough strength and an underbarrel weight might be just enough to negate recoil.  Or you could vehicle mount it (which is what is done IRL).

The penalties are stiff, but this is a thought exercise and no ideas are to be shot down...with the exception of Clown Monkey Ninjas.  They will always be shot down.

[Bradd]

Here's a rough thought. In both cases you roll for scatter normally.

Wide burst: You spread the grenades around, so that you are more likely to hit your target even if you scatter. For each extra grenade, subtract 1 meter from the distance to nearby targets. For example, a 3-grenade burst would expand 2 meters at full strength before falling off in effectiveness.

Narrow burst: You keep the grenades tight for maximum damage. Add +1 DV and -1 AP for each extra grenade.

[Walks Through Walls]

Why not just resolve each grenade seperately?

The additional recoil will make future shots harder to keep on point.

As far as making the mistake of scattering back on yourself it isn't often repeated usually because the poor sap who did scatter into themselves doesn't survive to have to worry about doing it again.

[Medicineman]

Why not just resolve each grenade seperately?
because theis slows down the Play and its not streamlined with the other Burst Rules !!

Grenade Burst Fire?
ImO simply ,just use the standard Burst Rules( small Burst +2DV or -2Dice to Evade ,etc)

with a simple ,Streamlined Dance
Medicineman

[The_Gun_Nut]

I like that for the quick streamlining, as well, but it gets a little odd with the wide burst option, since if you are spraying grenades everywhere the AOE does not expand because the DV doesn't go up.  While I'm all for quick and clean adjucations, this one causes some head scratching.

It's not a bad idea, but I think it could be improved upon.

[Magus]

Resolving the Grenades separetly would be a nightmare. 10 round burst--- 

I would think on top of the recoil , for Scatter you would have to roll scatter like normal and each net hit would be something like 2d6 meter reduction.

[Usda Beph]

This would be problematic at best with the way the Scatter rules are setup. Even with Airburst Link you still have scatter. This is offset even more with the recoil rules on heavy weapons which is what grenade launchers are classified as. According to Arsenal, uncomped recoil is doubled on all heavy weapons. So you are effectively cutting down your dice pool which will make scatter even worse. Imagine firing a Long Burst of 10 grenades with uncomped recoil thrown in. Ewww, you would have potentially grenades bouncing back at you and exploding due to the scatter, because you would have to roll scatter on each one I would imagine.

From personal Use (M203 grenade launcher as a Marine), There was no noticable recoil when launching grenades, ok maybe a gentle rocking. That being said from someone who was 200lbs back then.

[Magus]

Well the Mark 19 does have a noticable recoil but then it is also mounted on a HumVee. Ex Army 82nd Airborne Division 4 battalion 325 Airborne Infantry Regiment (Unit has now been retired  )

[Usda Beph]

What about the AA12(13?) what ever. The compaly owner fired it full auto from one hand "braced" by holding his own wrist, minimal recoil. and it had grenade (HE) rounds. I believe it's demoed here.
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2008/02/aa-12-automatic/

[The_Gun_Nut]

Are you veterans saying that the weapon would only suffer normal recoil instead of the heavy weapon doubling?

[Magus]

No HW will always have Double UNCOMPENSATED Recoil. If it is mouted (vehicular or otherwise) then that is compensated recoil. Either by the vehicles body in case of a hard mount or using a Gyroscope.

[The_Gun_Nut]

That's what I meant (uncompensated).  The veterans spoke up and stated that the recoil on the grenade launchers they used was minimal.  To my mind that means that the recoil penalty should be halved.