Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <02-28-18/1141:11>
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So I tried playing around with building a non-adept tank. The direction I'm going with is trying to capitalize on cyberlimbs that grant extra CM boxes as well as the ability to be "organically" armored. In designing a character around having multiple cyberlimbs, I've become less clear than when I started on how the attributes work when there are multiple cyberlimbs involved :D
For starters, the provisional character sheet as generated by Chummer (the non-cyberware resource expenditures are VERY provisional at this point):
== Personal Data ==
Name: Vunter Slaush Alias: Upgrayedd
Ork Movement: 6/12 (2m/hit) Swim: 8 (1m/hit)
Composure: 8
Street Cred: 0 Judge Intentions: 5
Notoriety: 0 Lift/Carry: 15 (105 kg/70 kg)
Public Awareness: 0 Memory: 9
Karma: 0 Nuyen: 270¥
Age: Skin:
Eyes: Hair:
Primary Arm: Right
== Priorities ==
Metatype: C,2
Attributes: B,3
Special: E,0
Skills: D,1
Resources: A,4
== Attributes ==
BOD: 8 CHA: 1
AGI: 3 (5) INT: 4
REA: 5 (7) LOG: 2
STR: 5 (7) WIL: 5 (7)
EDG: 2
== Derived Attributes
Essence: 0.48 Initiative: 11 +2d6
Physical Damage Track: 16Rigger Initiative: 11 +2d6
Stun Damage Track: 12Astral Initiative:
Physical: 10 Matrix AR: 11 +2d6
Hydraulic Jacks [+6] (Only with Jumping and Sprinting)
Hydraulic Jacks [+6] (Only with Jumping and Sprinting)
Mental: 5 Matrix Cold: 4 + DP +3d6
Medkit [+6] (Only for First Aid and Medicine)
Social: 4 Matrix Hot: 4 + DP +4d6
Astral: 5
== Active Skills ==
Automatics Base: 6 + Karma: 0 = 6 Pool: 11
Cybertechnology Base: 0 + Karma: 1 = 1 Pool: 3
Free-Fall Base: 0 + Karma: 1 = 1 Pool: 9
Gymnastics Base: 4 + Karma: 0 = 4 Pool: 9
Perception Base: 2 + Karma: 0 = 2 Pool: 6
Pilot Ground Craft Base: 0 + Karma: 1 = 1 Pool: 8
Running Base: 0 + Karma: 1 = 1 Pool: 8
Sneaking Base: 3 + Karma: 0 = 3 Pool: 8
Throwing Weapons Base: 0 + Karma: 1 = 1 Pool: 6
Unarmed Combat (Cyber Implants) Base: 6 + Karma: 0 = 6 Pool: 12 (14)
== Knowledge Skills ==
English Native
Or'zet Base: 2 + Karma: 0 = 2 Pool: 6
Club Music (Powernoize) Base: 2 + Karma: 0 = 2 Pool: 6 (8)
Fight Clubs Base: 3 + Karma: 0 = 3 Pool: 7
Gangs Base: 1 + Karma: 0 = 1 Pool: 5
Philosophy (Existentialist) Base: 2 + Karma: 0 = 2 Pool: 4 (6)
== Qualities ==
Allergy (Common, Mild) (Sunlight)
Cyber-Singularity Seeker
Did You Just Call Me Dumb?
High Pain Tolerance (Rating 1)
Low-Light Vision
Phobia (Common, Moderate) (Fire)
Superhuman Psychosis
Will to Live (Rating 2)
== Lifestyle ==
Flophouse (Low) 1 Months
== Cyberware/Bioware ==
Datajack
Obvious Full Arm (AGI 5, STR 6, Physical 9) (Left)
+ Customized StrengthRating 5
+ ArmorRating 3
+ Enhanced AgilityRating 2
+ Enhanced StrengthRating 1
+ Commlink
+ Cyberfinger (Fingerlight)
Obvious Full Arm (AGI 6, STR 6, Physical 9) (Right)
+ Customized StrengthRating 5
+ Enhanced AgilityRating 3
+ Enhanced StrengthRating 1
+ ArmorRating 3
+ Hand Blade
Obvious Full Leg (AGI 4, STR 8, Physical 11) (Left)
+ Customized StrengthRating 5
+ ArmorRating 3
+ Enhanced AgilityRating 1
+ Enhanced StrengthRating 3
+ Hydraulic JacksRating 6
+ Biomonitor
+ Auto Injector
+ Auto Injector Expansion
Obvious Full Leg (AGI 4, STR 8, Physical 11) (Right)
+ Customized StrengthRating 5
+ ArmorRating 3
+ Enhanced AgilityRating 1
+ Enhanced StrengthRating 3
+ Hydraulic JacksRating 6
+ Large Smuggling Compartment
Reaction EnhancersRating 2
Smartlink
Wired ReflexesRating 1
== Armor ==
Armor Jacket 12
+ Fire Resistance 4
+ Nonconductivity 4
== Weapons ==
AK-97
+ Foregrip
+ Gas-Vent 3 System
+ Sling
+ Smartgun System, External
+ Spare Clip
+ Spare Clip
Pool: 11 Accuracy: 7 DV: 10P AP: -2 RC: 8
Hand Blade
Pool: 12 (14)Accuracy: 10 DV: 8P AP: -2 RC: 4
Steyr TMP
+ Laser Sight
+ Smartgun System, Internal
+ Sound Suppressor
+ Spare Clip
+ Spare Clip
Pool: 11 Accuracy: 6 DV: 7P AP: - RC: 4
Unarmed Attack
Pool: 12 Accuracy: 10 DV: 7S AP: - RC: 4
== Commlink ==
Transys Avalon (ATT: 0, SLZ: 0, DP: 6, FWL: 6)
+ Signal Scrub
+ Browse
+ Encryption
+ Sim Module
== Gear: Equipped ==
Ammo: Regular Ammo (Machine Pistols) x100
Ammo: Regular Ammo (Assault Rifles) x120
Certified Credstick, Standard
Fake SIN (UCAS: Johnnie Walker) Rating 4
Fake SIN (UCAS: Johnnie Walker) Rating 4
+ Fake License (Restricted Cyberware License) Rating 4
+ Fake License (Firearms License) Rating 4
+ Fake License (Driver's License) Rating 4
Glasses Rating 2
Medkit Rating 6
Slap Patch, Stim Patch Rating 6 x6
== Vehicles ==
Echo Motors Zip
+ Metahuman Adjustment Rating 1
+ Sensor ArrayRating 2
== Contacts ==
Organlegger (Tamanous Member), (Connection: 5, Loyalty: 1)
Ok so the cyberlimbs situation. The character has 3 AGI 5 STR "inherently" as in even before cyberlimbs. They're all customized to that 3/5 standard, and they all are then enhanced beyond that (to non-identical degrees). The legs match each other at 4/8, and the arms are higher AGI and lower STR (5/6 and 6/6 for left/right). So the cyberlimbs' enhancements give me an "all over" augmented AGI/STR of 5/7 even though no individual limb has those exact stats.
So the way I understand how cyberlimbs work, is all the following correct?
A) When running, I'd use 8 STR instead of 7, as that's using the two legs (and potentially +6 more dice from hydraulic jacks if they're wireless)
B) When shooting with just the right arm, I'd use AGI 6 instead of 5?
C) When shooting a gun that requires both arms, I'd use AGI 5 as it's the lower of the two arms?
D) Hypothetically, if the two arms had a vastly different AGI would I be using the average between the two or just the lower of the two?
E) Biggie. So with Unarmed Combat... do I use the whole body average for the AGI on the opposed test? Is the DV set by whole body STR average or by the striking limb? What if the attack is not using a hand blade but is just a "regular" unarmed attack (dealing physical damage b/c no matter which limb it is, it's a cyberlimb)
Some other design thoughts:
I'm a fan of the Cyber Singularity Seeker quality. It's allowing not only a monstrous physical CM, it's also making possible a very respectable WIL. With his armor being obnoxious, most everything shy of an Assault Cannon is going to be stun (and sometimes even that!) so he needs as large a stun CM as possible. Besides every mage knows they way to bring down a tank is to attack their tiny brains with mana spells... 7 wil is about as good defense as one can get on that front without outside help.
Why no cyberspurs? Heh. Went with alphaware to not run out of essence... and an alphaware cyberspur is over 12 availability. So crappy old hand blade it is. Granted, those would be among the first things to be upgraded post-chargen :D
I'm not sure it's completely legal, but the way our circle does slap patches is you can load their drug payload into auto-injectors. Which is why this character has them and a matching bio-monitor implanted. Pain Editors can't be had in chargen, so a slap patch deployment mechanism is his ghetto pain editor. He's got the physical CM (16+10) to play serious games with stun overflow...
A concern I have is being able to ultimately GET a pain editor. Yeah, he's built to have one finish him off and become a pure juggernaut... but with the trifecta of a low CHA, no karma for negotiation, and picking negative qualities that sock the social dimension it's going to be a LONG time before he can acquire one... the =Y= is going to be much less of a challenge than hitting the 18F availability code. You have to buy hits in SRM to acquire gear, which means he'll need 20 dice, or a contact who can get 20 dice. Lol. Not anytime soon. I'm thinking even without the negative social qualities, he'll have to at least amass the street cred to lower the availability down below 16, so that 16 dice will suffice. Even by then, if he doesn't get a more connected contact than his organlegger "buddy", that's still gonna call for being willing to pay +125% book cost to hit 16 dice... which will hurt the credsticks mightily. I'm pretty sure that as awesome as he'd be with a pain editor, I have to perhaps build him with more social aptitude in order to ever get one.
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There is a lot to tweak here.
If Sum-to-10 is allowed, consider dropping Skills to E and upgrading Metatype to B. You lose 4 skill points but gain 4 points of Edge, which is a fantastic trade.
Now, onto the cyberlimbs.
First, you have availability issues. Armor for the limbs is Rating * 5, so the most you can take for regular cyberlimbs while staying under Availability 12 is 2 points. If you get them Used then you can get 3 points of armor per limb, but of course that eats up Essence like woah. The fact that you've taken Alphaware limbs means that the Armor is Availability 17, so that's a no-no.
Second, you want to use Customized Agility/Strength to max out the limbs before you even touch Enhanced Agility/Strength. The Customized attributes cost ¥5,000 per point and do NOT take up cyberlimb capacity. The Enhanced attributes cost ¥6,500 per point and DO take up capacity, so that's why you take Customized first. If you're playing an ork, you want to max out the limbs with Customized Agility 6 and Customized Strength 8 before you even touch the Enhanced attributes. (That said, definitely do both if you can afford it. The Enhanced attributes are a dynamite bargain.)
A) Agility is more important for running than Strength because it will boost your base movement rate and make sprinting less necessary. When you do need to sprint, you would use the average value of Strength for your legs, plus your hydraulic jacks if their wireless in on.
B) Given your current sheet, your right arm would shoot with Agility 6 (default AGI 3 + Enhanced Agility 3, which - per the above - is not the best way to do it).
C/D) I'm not sure what the official rule is but I believe most GMs would allow you to shoot with the average of the two arms rather than just using the lower Agility score.
E) The convention is that if you're leading an attack with a certain limb - because that's the one with hand razors, or a shock hand, or a cyberspur - then almost every GM will let you use the AGI/STR value for that limb. Many GMs would give you the benefit of the doubt and let you use these attributes even if were a more generic unarmed attack, but that would be a conversation to have with your GM. (Personally, I would allow it but would draw the line at something involving the whole body, like wrestling, at which point I would start averaging limbs.)
That's a start. If you like, I will PM you my four-cyberlimb ork that I cooked up last month.
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There is a lot to tweak here.
Indeed. I love how the feedback provided improved my other Covert Ops character, hoping to get more of the same here.
If Sum-to-10 is allowed, consider dropping Skills to E and upgrading Metatype to B. You lose 4 skill points but gain 4 points of Edge, which is a fantastic trade.
This is, if actually going on to play rather than just serve as a character building exercise, a SRM character. Sum-to-10 is technically allowed but not recommended. It'd be subject to GM approval (which is a big deal for organized play where you potentially never know what a given GM might say) so I'd like to avoid Sum-to-10 if at all possible.
Still, so long as you're not doing a human or elf Sum-to-10 can make the other metatypes much more playable. So I'd expect most GMs would allow a dwarf/ork/troll build this way. Even if not, I've got other characters to play so it's not a hard "No" to the idea of changing priorities. And yeah I agree Sum-to-10 WOULD work much better... it always does for the more expensive metatypes.
Now, onto the cyberlimbs.
First, you have availability issues. Armor for the limbs is Rating * 5, so the most you can take for regular cyberlimbs while staying under Availability 12 is 2 points. If you get them Used then you can get 3 points of armor per limb, but of course that eats up Essence like woah. The fact that you've taken Alphaware limbs means that the Armor is Availability 17, so that's a no-no.
Interesting catch. After reading up on cyberlimbs before getting started, my head was spinning with the limbs giving you (at least) 3 values for AGI/STR. (innate, augmented average, per limb) So I just built the thing in Chummer and let it do all the math and tell me how the attributes end up, and well the software didn't catch that armor availabilty hitch. Honestly I'm kind of glad.. he was 12 armor buck naked, and 24 if he just puts on a common armor jacket. Add in ballistic faceshield, SecureTech armor patches, and pretty much the only way to do actual physical damage is to max out limit on attack with something obnoxious while he gets no dodge test at all. Even at 2 armor per limb, he'll still be very tough physically damage. Probably still tough enough to render an on-target grenade to be stun damage (which is pretty much the one benchmark I want to hit- yeah an adept can be Mr Ninja McDodgeypants that "tanks" by never getting hit... I want to build a tank that can survive a hail of grenades that chunkysalsa the adept :) )
However the combination of obnoxious armor and a huge CM in turn gives me reason to question the wisdom of the combination. Until you have a pain editor, your Physical CM at that point is all just "stun overflow". So long as an implanted autoinjector/biomonitor can wake the tank up every time his Stun CM is full, I guess that's the next best thing to a pain editor. And 26 boxes on the physical CM means he can risk keep doing the stim patch trick however long it takes to win the fight, or until he runs out of stim patches...
Second, you want to use Customized Agility/Strength to max out the limbs before you even touch Enhanced Agility/Strength. The Customized attributes cost ¥5,000 per point and do NOT take up cyberlimb capacity. The Enhanced attributes cost ¥6,500 per point and DO take up capacity, so that's why you take Customized first. If you're playing an ork, you want to max out the limbs with Customized Agility 6 and Customized Strength 8 before you even touch the Enhanced attributes. (That said, definitely do both if you can afford it. The Enhanced attributes are a dynamite bargain.)
See, I thought the customized stats were only allowed to go as high as your actual stats. E.G. if you have AGI 3, you can't "customize" past 3 and have to do enhancements instead. I was ready to call you out on it and quote the customization rules on pg 456, but you're right! You can't customize past your augmented maximum; I thought it was you can't customize past your natural attribute value! Yeah this is going to change how a lot of money gets spent...
That's a start. If you like, I will PM you my four-cyberlimb ork that I cooked up last month.
I've got some tweaking to do on the limbs in light of the misunderstanding I had with customization... but I'd be interested in your take as well. I'm thinking I may actually just dispense with the cyber implant weaponry entirely. Limbs already allow me to do physical damage and I can use the arms and legs to pick between higher AGI for more reliable hits and higher STR for higher damage. So I may use the specialization in Unarmed Comabt instead for martial arts techniques or some such.
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I question the need/use of 4 full limbs.
You can get 85% of what you want really with some better Attributes to start & only 1-2 Full Limb & some hands/feet.
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My preferred tank priority selection:
B Dwarf
E/C Atts
D Aspected Sorcerer
C/E Atts
A Resources
Or if you must be mundane: (B Dwarf, D Atts, E Mundane, C skills, A Resources)
Skills D is the worst D slot IMO. Going Skills E and getting more edge, more atts, more resources, or becoming magic goes a lot farther.
Tanking is unsustainable as wound penalties can add up faster than you can often take down your foes. Also, because armor is so high, you only take things as stun, making your physical track that you invest heavily in worthless. It doesn't matter how many physical boxes you have if you get knocked out.
Shadowrun tanking only works (IMO) with a Pain Editor. This lets you:
Not experience wound penalties.
Increase your effective damage track to Stun + Physical x2 (once your out of stun boxes, stun damage comes in as physical/2). This lets you take advantage of those limb boxes. If you are a Willpower 7(9) Body 3 with 4 limbs, you have 13 stun + effective 14(x2) physical = 41 boxes in basically one track.
Pain Editors up your willpower higher, good for full defense, which tanks will do a lot and FLR tanks don't benefit from Agile Defender.
You can afford to take less body/str and increase willpower (for defense/addiction) when you get to use both your damage tracks and stay on your feet.
Screw wired reflexes. You are a willpower boosted dwarf, get Narco + Cram (and psych) and save the money/essence.
Why are your legs strong and not your arms? You can be a fine enough jumper without that strength, but you are not hitting very hard. A dwarf can get a 11 Strength Cyberarm.
Qualities:
Cybersingularity Seeker
Restricted Gear (Pain Editor)
OR wait to get a Pain Editor in play (save the essence) and get biocompatibility cyberware and a mentor spirit. Just note that you can't really play the character like a throw yourself into every bullet tank until you get the pain editor.
Being an aspected sorcerer is nice in that:
you can get a weapon focus to actually damage some of those hard to hit spirits/critters, and get even higher dice melee attacks to go with that 11 Str dward cybearm.
you can get counterspelling dice to be even more of a tank against spells.
you have growth potential, beyond 'ware, given that you are already jammed up at chargen. Get a mentor spirit (Bear is nice for a tank), get a metamagic, learn to levitate, etc.
Free Assensing
Quick Mockup:
Karma: 10 karma Agi, 10 on Edge, 24 on PQs, 3 focus, 2 assensing. Needs at least 24 karma of NQs. (If your GM lets you hit Magic 0 in character gen, better to pump edge with special points and buy Magic back to 1 with 5 karma).
Nuyen remaining after basic 'ware/focus for other gear and to fill limbs with more stuff: 110k
== Personal Data ==
Name: Unnamed Character Alias:
Dwarf
Movement: 12/24 (1m/hit)
Swim: 2.5 (1m/hit)
Composure: 12
Street Cred: 0 Judge Intentions: 7
Notoriety: 0 Lift/Carry: 6 (45 kg/30 kg)
Public Awareness: 0 Memory: 11
Karma: 0 Nuyen: 109,780¥
Age: Skin:
Eyes: Hair:
Primary Arm: Right
== Priorities ==
Metatype: B,3
Attributes: E,0
Special: D,1
Skills: C,2
Resources: A,4
== Attributes ==
BOD: 3 CHA: 3
AGI: 2 INT: 4
REA: 3 LOG: 1 (2)
STR: 3 WIL: 7 (9)
EDG: 2 MAG: 1
== Derived Attributes
Essence: 1.02 Initiative: 7 +1d6
Physical Damage Track: 14 Rigger Initiative: 7 +1d6
Stun Damage Track: 13 Astral Initiative: 8 +3d6
Physical: 4 Matrix AR: 7 +1d6
Mental: 6 Matrix Cold: 4 + DP +3d6
Social: 6 Matrix Hot: 4 + DP +4d6
Astral: 6
== Active Skills ==
Assensing Base: 0 + Karma: 1 = 1 Pool: 5
Automatics (Assault Rifles) Base: 6 + Karma: 0 = 6 Pool: 8 (10)
Blades (Knives) Base: 6 + Karma: 0 = 6 Pool: 8 (10)
Con Base: 1 + Karma: 0 = 1 Pool: 4
Counterspelling Base: 4 + Karma: 0 = 4 Pool: 5
Etiquette Base: 1 + Karma: 0 = 1 Pool: 4
Impersonation Base: 1 + Karma: 0 = 1 Pool: 4
Leadership Base: 1 + Karma: 0 = 1 Pool: 4
Negotiation Base: 1 + Karma: 0 = 1 Pool: 4
Perception (Visual) Base: 4 + Karma: 0 = 4 Pool: 8 (10)
Performance Base: 1 + Karma: 0 = 1 Pool: 4
Sneaking (Urban) Base: 4 + Karma: 0 = 4 Pool: 6 (8)
== Knowledge Skills ==
== Qualities ==
Aspected Magician
Cyber-Singularity Seeker
Jack of All Trades Master of None
Resistance to Pathogens/Toxins
Restricted Gear
Thermographic Vision
== Cyberware/Bioware ==
Cerebral BoosterRating 1
Datajack (alpha)
Narco
Obvious Full Arm (AGI 8, STR 8, Physical 8) (Left) (used)
+ ArmorRating 3
+ Enhanced AgilityRating 2
+ Customized AgilityRating 6
+ Customized StrengthRating 8
Obvious Full Arm (AGI 9, STR 11, Physical 10) (Right) (used)
+ ArmorRating 3
+ Customized AgilityRating 6
+ Customized StrengthRating 8
+ Enhanced AgilityRating 3
+ Enhanced StrengthRating 3
Obvious Full Leg (AGI 6, STR 3, Physical 4) (Left) (alpha)
+ Customized AgilityRating 6
+ ArmorRating 2
Obvious Full Leg (AGI 6, STR 3, Physical 4) (Right) (alpha)
+ Customized AgilityRating 6
+ ArmorRating 2
Pain Editor (alpha)
Smartlink (alpha)
== Weapons ==
Combat Knife
Pool: 8 (10) Accuracy: 6 DV: 5P AP: -3 RC: 2
Unarmed Attack
Pool: 1 Accuracy: 4 DV: 3S AP: - RC: 2
== Gear: Equipped ==
Weapon Focus (Bonded Foci) (Combat Knife) Rating 1
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Yes I wasn't able to find a way to actually start play with a Pain Editor. I need to sit down and just read through Run Faster cover to cover at some point... there seems to be no end of gems in there.
Yeah obviously there'll be whatever retooling is necessary to come up with the 10 karma to get that quality. Actually paying the =Y= for it should be easy at resources A, even with a bunch of cyber already.
I agree about wired reflexes... once you've got at least 10+1d6 intiative getting level 1 wires is almost a waste of resources.
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Don't forget that Agility is used for determining movement. Most GMs would use leg Agility to determine this. Strength + Running is only used if you want to move a little more than your base movement (in meter per hit). When you have high agility legs, you are going to move so fast (cover more ground in a combat turn with just your base movement) that never need to roll for running.
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I find the tank concept to be a very problematic one. We lack the mechanics necessary to make tank fulfill their role (IE Aggro Control). Just being able to roll 40 dice of armor may make you tank but it's also pushes the limits at the table. It's not all that complicated to build these concepts I just haven't seen one done in a way that I feel like is actually worth bringing along, and Raising the steaks the gm needs to bring to threaten that isn't going help the rest of the table.
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Tanks that can move fast function as "battlefield" control. Engaging folks in melee gives a lot of negatives to folks who want to to disengage. Tanks can tend to ignore these negatives. By getting in people's faces out from cover, they become an easy target, often drawing fire.
I find they are tough concepts in play in that just doing combat, let alone a narrow take on it, limits the extent you are helpful when not fighting. If a run doesn't involve a lot of it, you are just kind of there in case things get rough and to fail rolls out of your specialty. It is another reason I like magic tanks (or even techno-tanks [with high willpower/firewall and a Pain Editor Echo]), in that they have something else they can do that is of value.
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I find the tank concept to be a very problematic one. We lack the mechanics necessary to make tank fulfill their role (IE Aggro Control). Just being able to roll 40 dice of armor may make you tank but it's also pushes the limits at the table. It's not all that complicated to build these concepts I just haven't seen one done in a way that I feel like is actually worth bringing along, and Raising the steaks the gm needs to bring to threaten that isn't going help the rest of the table.
Usually, the GM doesn't need to make sure the enemy they go up against must be able to kill all of the PCs. As you said, there's no MMO aggro control, and it's not like one man with 40 damage resist dice can single-handedly do the job if everyone else on his team dies. So having one guy who's tougher than diamond isn't really a problem. I've never felt a need to make sure there's some monster who can cut the troll tank in half when a normal guy with a shotgun can still just aim at the decker and fire twice if the troll isn't doing his job.
On a team, the primary combatant's job is threat removal. They have to be able to immediately, without hesitation, engage whatever the biggest threat is and eliminate it before it can start taking out teammates. Towards this goal, having incredible defenses helps, as long as you don't begin sacrificing offense too much. After all, if you literally do nothing but not die then you're not use to the team. The only thing that matters is "can I take out the threats without them taking me out, before they take my team out"?
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FST_Gemstar I'm trying to wrap my head around your example build.
I don't see how you're getting a 11 STR Cyberarm with a STR 3 character. With STR 3, your augmented maximum is 7. And per the cyberlimb customization rules you can't customize beyond that? +3 levels of STR enhancement gets to 10...
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I always thought cyberlimb can get to natural max without the +4 rule. If not, my str 3 dwarf would have limbs capped at 10, not 11.
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Customization: You can have your cyberlimb tailored
and customized to your frame and musculature. Customization
lets you add to your limb’s base Strength and/or
Agility ratings. Each increase of either attribute increases
the limb’s Availability and cost. If either of your limb’s attributes
are increased beyond your natural maximum for
that attribute, you can’t use the cyberlimb (so don’t overdo
it), but you can still add cyberlimb enhancements. You
customize your cyberlimb when you buy it; you can’t customize
it after purchase, but you can add enhancements.
Hrm. On RE-re-reading it, I suppose you could read "natural maximum" as "racial maximum" rather than "the rules-established usual augmented limit". Chalk another one up as an example of the the ambiguous nature of non-technical language.
It never even crossed my mind that it might be referring to the racial max... but now that you point it out I bet you're right... it probably is.
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Yeah this a point that caused me a lot of confusion. I used to be really not sure but if you consider going other direction it makes limb pretty worthless, so I'm good the maximum.
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So, assuming =Y= is no object... is there any game mechanic that'd punish you for having 1 str but cyberlimbs all at racial maximums?
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So, assuming =Y= is no object... is there any game mechanic that'd punish you for having 1 str but cyberlimbs all at racial maximums?
If you take an action that involves more then just the limb you do something called stat averaging. It's discussed somewhere the core.
Sufficient to say you reduce the amount of stat the limb gives you a large amount.
Further in the American version, Limit is not calculated based upon cymber limb attributes, ie if had 4 limbs with 11 str and your main line was 1 str, for the limit calculation you have 1 str.
So two places I guess.
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So, assuming =Y= is no object... is there any game mechanic that'd punish you for having 1 str but cyberlimbs all at racial maximums?
Limits are the major one. In particular, keep in mind your Physical Limit determines how easy it is to knock you down. That can easily make you useless in combat.
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Lots of good info; thanks for the input everyone.
Very excited about being tipped off about the Restricted Gear quality... being able to start play already with a Pain Editor takes this from being an academic exercise to being a possible character for actual play!
Having the armor to turn everything into stun damage and the combined condition monitors to soak more damage than a tank is perhaps gimmicky, but honestly pretty dang helpful in a fight. Not particularly so perhaps in those cases where everything is going your way and you're attacking from cover of an ambush on hapless, surprised targets... but definitely so in those cases where the PCs are the ones being ambushed or just one of those wrong place/wrong time situations and an unplanned fight is occurring anyway. firebug has an excellent point about being a juggernaut of a can't-be-killed zombie type isn't by itself helpful. I'm thinking max skill in autofire weapons (and the str to be credible laying down the lead hose) is enough for 90% of the fights, and the rest of the time where Assault rifles aren't the right tool for the job specializing in some martial arts/grappling will be very handy (need to capture a target alive? Check. don't have weapons that can hurt a spirit? Fine I'll just clinch him and neutralize him until he de-manifests...)
I'd like to go back to a point made upthread and elsewhere: your character really should be able to contribute more than just in narrow circumstances. The Tank archetype pregen for example, is similar in that it's an expensive metahuman (troll in this case) and has low skills. The rulebook Tank adds some outside-combat utility by having skilljack/skillwires... but I won't be going down that route. A) I just did it on my covert ops char, B) going 4 limbs really does eat up not just essence but also the resources even at priority A.
So I can't feasibly get away with making STR a dump stat to help get a leg up on non-combat skills. The basic background idea I had for someone with 4 cyberlimbs was that he barely survived a house fire, hence the replacement limbs for those that were ruined by fire. This gave a natural idea for phobia:fire- gonna need lots of negative qualities anyway to get the +25 karma, neh? So I'm thinking of spending some of that karma on more/better contacts, since low CHA doesn't leave you much in that department w/o karma investment. So he'll get a decently well-connected Firefighter contact (a Lieutenant or such)- not only fits naturally into what's burgeoning into a background story, it is a contact almost noone ever takes yet is incredibly useful for shadowrunners. Honestly, why am I the only one I've ever seen take a Firefighter? Why have the decker hack up some floorplans when your firefighter buddy can just use emergency personnel access to give them over to you? :) AND they've got a finger on emergency matrix communications without having any ties/loyalty to the police... I'd rather have a firefighter tell me where the cop blockades are than a cop...
Parting thought for now: I struggled with the name for the proof of concept character. I'm thinking Francis Dollarhyde aka "Red Dragon" is a fun steal that's pretty appropro for a character with the combination of Cyber Singularity Seeker/Superhuman Psychopath qualities! Even gives a complete lineup of knowledge skills to pick...
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oh god No Steel, skip the psychosis and get a decent code of honor.
Just defy fate make tank who isn't epic Jerk for love metahumanity.
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oh god No Steel, skip the psychosis and get a decent code of honor.
Just defy fate make tank who isn't epic Jerk for love metahumanity.
Heh. Well SRM disallows quite a few negative qualities. Just about every Code of Honor included. It sometimes feels like there's more that's disallowed than allowed.
But still, I suppose I was going full on cliche there. How much fun would it be to make a cybered up tough who's NOT a terminator wannabe?
You do have me looking at some other options for negative qualities at least. Superhuman Psychosis, being half advantage and half disadvantage is only -2, so there's really only so much I could swap it out for. If I look at not doubling down on being socially inept I could also drop 'Did you just call me dumb?" and together they're -5 points to re-pick.
Fun find: Critter Spook fits perfectly, but even better it's a passive aggro drawing quality! It'd be giving me karma for an ability I'd WANT to have as a tank! Something fun for a background could be that he just loves dogs, but with his essence so low and smelling so funny with all the metal and chrome dogs really just don't love him back. It just gets tragic when they're guard dogs.
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Ok so here's a Mark II Ork Tank incorporating the things I've learned and some of the excellent advice given upthread:
== Personal Data ==
Name: Vunter Slaush Alias: Palatin
Ork Movement: 6/12 (2m/hit) Swim: 8 (1m/hit)
Composure: 8
Street Cred: 0 Judge Intentions: 5
Notoriety: 0 Lift/Carry: 15 (105 kg/70 kg)
Public Awareness: 0 Memory: 9
Karma: 0 Nuyen: 1,220¥
Primary Arm: Right
== Priorities ==
Metatype: C,2
Attributes: B,3
Special: E,0
Skills: D,1
Resources: A,4
== Attributes ==
BOD: 8 CHA: 1
AGI: 3 (5) INT: 4
REA: 5 (6) LOG: 2
STR: 5 (7) WIL: 5 (7)
EDG: 2
== Derived Attributes
Essence: 2.02 Initiative: 10 +1d6
Physical Damage Track: 16Rigger Initiative: 10 +1d6
Stun Damage Track: 12Astral Initiative:
Physical: 10 Matrix AR: 10 +1d6
Hydraulic Jacks [+6] (Only with Jumping and Sprinting)
Hydraulic Jacks [+6] (Only with Jumping and Sprinting)
Mental: 5 Matrix Cold: 4 + DP +3d6
Medkit [+6] (Only for First Aid and Medicine)
Social: 4 Matrix Hot: 4 + DP +4d6
Ballistic Mask [+1] (Only for intimidation, Must be visible)
Astral: 5
== Active Skills ==
Automatics (Assault Rifles) Base: 6 + Karma: 0 = 6 Pool: 11 (13)
Cybertechnology Base: 0 + Karma: 1 = 1 Pool: 3
Gymnastics Base: 4 + Karma: 0 = 4 Pool: 9
Running Base: 0 + Karma: 1 = 1 Pool: 8
Sneaking (Urban) Base: 3 + Karma: 0 = 3 Pool: 8 (10)
Unarmed Combat (Brawling) Base: 6 + Karma: 0 = 6 Pool: 11 (13)
== Knowledge Skills ==
English Native
Gangs Base: 2 + Karma: 0 = 2 Pool: 6
History (Western Europe) Base: 1 + Karma: 0 = 1 Pool: 3 (5)
Philosophy (Kantian) Base: 3 + Karma: 0 = 3 Pool: 5 (7)
RenFaires Base: 1 + Karma: 0 = 1 Pool: 5
Small Unit Tactics (Urban) Base: 2 + Karma: 0 = 2 Pool: 6 (8)
== Qualities ==
Allergy (Common, Mild) (Alcohol)
Critter Spook
Cyber-Singularity Seeker
Low-Light Vision
Phobia (Common, Moderate) (Fire)
Restricted Gear (Pain Editor)
== Lifestyle ==
Flophouse (Low) 1 Months
== Cyberware==
(All Alphaware)
Datajack
Obvious Full Arm (AGI 6, STR 9, Physical 11) (Left)
+ Customized StrengthRating 7
+ ArmorRating 2
+ Commlink
+ Cyberfinger (Fingerlight)
+ Customized AgilityRating 5
+ Enhanced StrengthRating 2
+ Enhanced AgilityRating 1
Obvious Full Arm (AGI 7, STR 10, Physical 12) (Right)
+ Customized StrengthRating 7
+ ArmorRating 2
+ Customized AgilityRating 5
+ Enhanced StrengthRating 3
+ Enhanced AgilityRating 2
Obvious Full Leg (AGI 5, STR 6, Physical 9) (Left)
+ Customized StrengthRating 6
+ ArmorRating 2
+ Hydraulic JacksRating 6
+ Biomonitor
+ Auto Injector
+ Auto Injector Expansion
+ Customized AgilityRating 5
Obvious Full Leg (AGI 5, STR 6, Physical 9) (Right)
+ Customized StrengthRating 6
+ ArmorRating 2
+ Hydraulic JacksRating 6
+ Large Smuggling Compartment
+ Customized AgilityRating 5
Reaction EnhancersRating
Smartlink
==Bioware==
Pain Editor
== Armor ==
Armor Jacket 12
+ Fire Resistance 4
+ Nonconductivity 4
Ballistic Mask 2
+ Thermographic Vision
Helmet 2
+ Single SensorRating 2 x2
+ UltrasoundRating 2
== Weapons ==
AK-97 ("Longsword")
+ Foregrip
+ Gas-Vent 3 System
+ Sling
+ Smartgun System, External
+ Spare Clip
+ Spare Clip
+ Shock Pad
Pool: 11 (13)Accuracy: 7 DV: 10P AP: -2 RC: 9
Steyr TMP
+ Laser Sight
+ Smartgun System, Internal
+ Sound Suppressor
+ Spare Clip
+ Spare Clip
Pool: 11 Accuracy: 6 DV: 7P AP: - RC: 4
Unarmed Attack
Pool: 11 Accuracy: 10 DV: 7S AP: - RC: 4
== Martial Arts ==
Boxing (Brawler Style)
+ Full OffenseFull OffenseRG137
== Commlink ==
Transys Avalon (ATT: 0, SLZ: 0, DP: 6, FWL: 6)
+ Signal Scrub
+ Browse
+ Encryption
+ Sim Module
== Gear: Equipped ==
Ammo: APDS (Assault Rifles) x120
Ammo: APDS (Submachine Guns) x100
Ammo: Regular Ammo (Assault Rifles) x120
Ammo: Regular Ammo (Submachine Guns) x100
Ammo: Stick-n-Shock (Assault Rifles) x120
AR Gloves
Certified Credstick, Standard
Climbing Gear
Datachip "Complete works of Immanuel Kant"
Datachip "Bushido: Art of War, Book of Five Rings, Japanese History"
Datachip "Chivalry: Le Morte d'Arthur, History of Charlemagne, History of Medieval Europe"
Fake SIN (UCAS: Johnnie Walker) Rating 4
+ Fake License (Restricted Cyberware License) Rating 4
+ Fake License (Firearms License) Rating 4
Flashlight, Low-light
Medkit Rating 6
Respirator Rating 6
Restraint, Metal
Restraint, Plastic x10
Slap Patch, Stim Patch Rating 6 x6
Tool Kit (Cybertechnology)
== Contacts ==
Cybertechnician (Street Doc), (Connection: 3, Loyalty: 1)
FD Lieutenant (Firefighter), (Connection: 5, Loyalty: 1)
I think he's more fun as a wannabe Knight in Shining Armor than a generic Cybernetic Psycho. Even switched his Philosophical specialization to represent the shift!
So he hits the 16 dice threshold for offense with the Assault Rifle and with Unarmed Combat when using the Full Offense Martial Arts trick. And why would he ever NOT use full offense? What, like he's gonna dodge attacks anyway? :) That oughta let him credibly contribute to ending fights rather than just surviving them. Unfortunately that doesn't leave much for skills after that, so he's admittedly weak in the Legwork and Recon stages of a Shadowrun. But I think the Firefighter contact and some cybernetic augmentations (Jacks, Smuggling Compartment) can led some assistance to the recon phase as well.
I don't like that he's Resources A and still has to beg for a ride, but being a helpful team-focused type makes it much more palatable than being a cyber psycho type :)
Edit: I wrote this for his table-tent. Definitely more fun character than a carbon copy psycho type.
Name: Palatin. Role: Tank.
Capabilities: Combat, Not Dying, Helping you to Not Die.
Apparent Qualities: Ork, 4 Obvious Cyberlimbs, Surprisingly Philosophical, Interest in Knights in Shining Armor, Won’t drink Alcohol, Loves Puppies, Not too comfortable around Fire.
Background: Considers himself “reborn” after having barely survived a house fire. Replacement limbs made him even tougher than the street ganger he was before, and decided his calling in life was to protect those unable to protect themselves. Not too many legit job opportunities in protecting the weak for a SINless Ork, however…
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You can save some money for a vehicle and other stuff by taking down the rating of your limbs (or at least one or a few of them). You have the essence for it. A used limb can fit more armor and can get higher custom stats without hitting availability limit. You can even bulk them up for more capacity and stay under limit. Ex. A single used cyberarm, especially bulked, can usually fit a built in weapon...an ever-present machine pistol or shockhand is nice.
and based on silly rules (but rules nonetheless), having Charisma 1 and no con skill makes the character very vulnerable to anyone trying to lie to them. You resit con checks with Charisma + Con.... which character would have 0 dice for... Character will believe anything anyone tells them with any conviction (one con hit).
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That's great advice. I saved over 60,000 =Y= by swapping the arms from alphaware to used. That did indeed allow me to max out the customization, enhancement, and armor on both. I got a Spur and a shock hand and a Car and I'm still finding ways to spend the rest of it..
I was planning on getting some Wired Reflexes with all that "spare" essence I had, but meh. If/when I replace the arms with alphaware versions of the same upgraded nature, I'll possibly be able to squeeze wires in. But I'm thinking I'm liking the suggestion upthread about just using combat drugs instead of wires. Kamikaze is almost replicating Wires 2 for the risk of making addiction checks. It's physiological only, and with throwing 15 dice against a threshold of 3 it should be mostly safe long-term :)
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A fun update: I loved how this character turned out, and in tweaking him around for being a backup Neo-Tokyo SRM character I found myself asking that if 4 cyberlimbs worked out so marvelously, what about making a Nartaki and having SIX cyberlimbs?
What I learned: It doesn't work out as well. I figured out a way to squeeze it all in, but I couldn't afford CyberSingularity AND Restricted Gear AND biocompatability. Can't drop the first because what's the point then with going with 6 cyberlimbs. Can't drop the last because even at resources A you need it to have both essence AND nuyen left over after getting 6 cyberlimbs. Which means you HAVE to go without restricted gear, which means no pain editor. I went with the ghetto option in an adrenaline boost- still get to ignore injury modifiers and full stun CM but only for 1d6 combat rounds. Between that and having lower base physical stats than the Ork, it's just not a step up. It's not even a step sideways.. this 4 cyberlimbed tank just flat out works better than a potential 6 limbed one based on human stats and having capabilities beyond the cyberlimbs. Even the opportunities for multiple attacks just seemed "meh" when arrayed against a dude with a FA gun.
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I appreciate that you at least found a way to make Nartaki useful in theory. I think that's the first time I've heard of an actual mechanical benefit to having extra arms besides "uh I guess I could hold a sword and an assault rifle so I don't have to get a bayonet". Hey, it's an idea for an NPC at least. Or if you ever make a Prime Runner who begins with extra karma for PQs and nuyen.
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I appreciate that you at least found a way to make Nartaki useful in theory. I think that's the first time I've heard of an actual mechanical benefit to having extra arms besides "uh I guess I could hold a sword and an assault rifle so I don't have to get a bayonet". Hey, it's an idea for an NPC at least. Or if you ever make a Prime Runner who begins with extra karma for PQs and nuyen.
Well.. Splitting your dice pool(s) up when you're making 4 attacks governed by 4 different skills is pretty frikkin awesomely effective. Narataki with 4 attacks sharing one Blades skill pool is lame... 1 unarmed attack, 1 stun baton attack, 1 katana attack, and 1 point blank pistol shot is death incarnate. Pretty much building a tank with a Narataki is a waste of potential... just go cuisinart :)