Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Chalkarts on <04-18-16/1847:19>

Title: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: Chalkarts on <04-18-16/1847:19>
I'm not sure how to interpret technomancers.  Cant decide if I like them or not.

What do you think about them?
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on <04-18-16/1854:02>
I can sum my answer up quite simply: love the concept, hate the execution.

Go read Emergence. Then the SR4 technomancer rules, especially Unwired.

Then read SR5s implementation. Ugh...
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: Bewilderbeast on <04-18-16/1906:57>
Some bed time reading for you:

http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=23672.0

My opinion? Technos were designed to be: "Like deckers, but different." Instead they came out as: "Like deckers, but worse."

There is basically one effective build for technomancers that leans heavily on sprites (I believe Hobbes is the resident expert on that). While a techno could probably hack it (lolpun) in Missions games, 99% of the time the decker is going to do the same thing but better.

Of course, the counter opinion on these boards are that technos are fine, it's just that the SR5 community perceives them as sucking. Sort of a confirmation bias / self-fulfilling prophecy thing? Personally I stand with the current zeitgeist that technos are borked due to their high Fading codes, but YMMV.

Basically, I'm not saying it's impossible to build an effective technomancer. I'm just saying you've got your work cut out for you.

And plus, even if effective... deckers can generally do your thing just as good, if not better, and don't have to use 100% of their chargen resources to get there.
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: DragginSPADE on <04-18-16/2102:21>
My impression just based on reading the books and not having seen them in actual play is that they're just magicians who's talent has been turned towards influencing the matrix instead of the "normal" world.  I'm baffled why the books try so hard to deny this, especially when most of their rules seem copy/pasted from the magic section. 

Or in the case of resonance Deep Runs from Data Trails, seem to be straight up Cut/Pasted from astral quests.  ;D
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: ScytheKnight on <04-18-16/2142:09>
My impression just based on reading the books and not having seen them in actual play is that they're just magicians who's talent has been turned towards influencing the matrix instead of the "normal" world.  I'm baffled why the books try so hard to deny this, especially when most of their rules seem copy/pasted from the magic section. 

Or in the case of resonance Deep Runs from Data Trails, seem to be straight up Cut/Pasted from astral quests.  ;D

And that's pretty much the issue... they're a copy past of mages, with HIGHER 'Drain' (read Fading) and none of the support structure (reagents, foci, mentor spirits, etc.).

By far the biggest problem with Technomancers however is there's no real chance to be a Technomancer/*Insert other archetype here* due to the steep attribute and skill requirements. Decker/Street Sam, Decker/Face, Decker/Mage are all easily viable, with a bit of work even Decker/Rigger is a thing (Resources become the big limiting factor here)... The problem is the requirements of a Technomancer don't synergise with anything which means you have to throw even more skill points, attributes and resources at the problem and that's flat out not something Technomancers have to spare.

At chargen a focused build can make a Technomancer a reasonable (barely) hacker.

At chargen a focused build can make a Decker an amazing hacker, or lose the focus and be quite competent in two archetypes.

Don't misconstrue this as me hating on Technomancers, I LOVE the idea! At the moment however they're just horridly implemented and been largely ignored in other books except for a come-along promise of a dedicated Technomancer book some time in the future... a book that's already lost it's entire team and had to start again from scratch once.
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: Fabe on <04-19-16/0141:02>
 Sounds like they should re-do Technomancers  and explain things fluff wise as it took technos awhile to adjust to the new matrix.
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: Rosa on <04-19-16/0347:17>
Technomancers had their equivalent of mentor spirits back in 4th edition, the so-called Paragons, no idea why they were dropped though.
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: Dinendae on <04-19-16/0356:19>
Technomancers had their equivalent of mentor spirits back in 4th edition, the so-called Paragons, no idea why they were dropped though.


They also had the equivalent of magical traditions, called Streams.
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: ScytheKnight on <04-19-16/0446:33>
Technomancers had their equivalent of mentor spirits back in 4th edition, the so-called Paragons, no idea why they were dropped though.

Probably for the same reason pet rules have been dropped... they simply haven't bothered to include them in a book yet.
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: Dinendae on <04-19-16/0451:40>
Technomancers had their equivalent of mentor spirits back in 4th edition, the so-called Paragons, no idea why they were dropped though.

Probably for the same reason pet rules have been dropped... they simply haven't bothered to include them in a book yet.


They should have been in the Matrix book, but I'm guessing if we see them it'll be in the eventual Technomancer supplement.
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: dragrubis on <04-19-16/0534:55>
And in the 4th technomancers were better at rigging even at chargen...

I think we need a lot of stuff o the previous release back un the 5th and adapted to
- Physical echoes (biowire is a must have to buy skill with nuyens !)
- Threading of cyber program
- Echoes with Resonnance/Submersion power dependence (and not a buy multiple time to augment efficience)
- Paragon (AKA mentor spitits)
- Widget (AKA foci)
- Other sprite (bring back boss sprite and paragon sprite!)
- Streams
- And more skill point for technomancer  at chargen

Magician or Mystic Adept: Magic 6, two Rating 5
Magical skills, 10 spells
Technomancer: Resonance 6, two Rating 5 Resonance
skills, 5 complex forms

New complex form 4 (5*4 = 20 karma bonus)
New spell 5 (5*10 = 50 karma bonus)

complex form have a limited use (only matrix,  resonance spike can shoot only one of decker, drone or a street sam cyber arm... with luck)
a lot of spell have multipurpose uses (lighning ball can stop, the decker the drone and the street sam at same time) (and light fading values)


Technomancers needs more point to spend on technical skill (eletronic and hacking groups) to buy more points or other things its just a patch
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: firebug on <04-19-16/0847:13>
It's been a while since I've posted or played Shadowrun, prettymuch BECAUSE I'm waiting for the technomancer supplement to make my favorite archetype playable beyond "have sprites do everything for you".  So I may have trouble remembering every point I've made in the past about them.

But, let's see...  At base, TMs are to Deckers what Combat Adepts are to Street Samurai.  They are intended to fulfill the same role, but do so in a different way, with their own strengths and weaknesses.  TMs and Deckers are the "Matrix Specialist" of the group.  This is an important role that fulfills a few key duties.  Namely, they have to be able to protect the group from matrix threats, they have to be able to halt security (usually by hacking a host), and they need to be capable of stealing data.

A decker is capable of doing all of those things, because the game system was built -for- the decker archetype.  All the rules and mechanics were made with how a decker could do them in mind.  The TM, however, was clearly addressed afterwards (as evidenced by it literally coming after in the rulebook and getting a tiny number of pages).

The problems start at creation.

Priority selection.  A TM uses the same skills as a decker, but also has their own skills.  So they need higher Skills priority.  A TM uses all four Mental Attributes, whereas a decker can get away with just LOG and INT (and at least 3 WIL).   The TM is also unable to augment their physicals via cybernetics.  So they need higher Attributes priority.  Decker's don't need MAG/RES, and can dump their E into it.  You'd think though, that TMs don't need Resources, so it balances out...  But a E in Resources is difficult for any character period, and most need D in order to afford a fake SIN, armor, a gun, a commlink, a lifestyle, and other miscellaneous gear.  This also means that deckers, since their E is already used, they essentially can be a 5 Edge Human or an Elf with no cost.

Then we get to Qualities.  There's a LOT of good qualities for a decker.  Many of them don't work for a TM (such as Overclocking), and a TM will likely need at least a couple levels of Focused Concentration if they want to make use of their Complex Forms without hampering their ability to hack even farther.

Then we get to the actual gameplay.  Well, a decker is very flexible.  Just about every time I play, a decker can enter matrix combat with 8+ Attack rating, Hammer, Mugger, and so on.  They can output so much damage that everything gets one-shot, while having an impeccable dice pool due to them having 8+ LOG and 5 Edge.  With them easily affording every single program (costing only a couple thousand nuyen) they can be fully prepared for any matrix situation.

Meanwhile, a TM will have usually 5 in every matrix attribute, inflexibly, unless they have specifically an Elf who went out of their way to have 8 Attack.  If their LOG is their one-maxed-attribute allowed at creation, then they can have a 12 dice pool.  Less than a decker, with less qualities to boost it, less Edge...  They might both have a specialization though.  They have no access to programs--

Programs are worth 250¥.  TMs can get ONE for an initiation.  At it's cheapest, it's 13 Karma.  Is that a fair trade?  FUCK NO.  Programs may have been originally just a thing to make deckers special, which would be fine, but they have some VERY key abilities that now, TMs cannot do.  Like...

Biofeedback/Blackout: The only way to deal biofeedback damage.  TMs now cannot do that at all unless they submerge just for it.
Lockdown: Another staple of matrix combat, link-locking people, is again something TMs are incapable of.

And the biggest one...  Hitchiker:  They wrote a whole new way to get the entire group to be able to do matrix stuff!  It has its own chapter, it's super cool, and it's a big deal.  Deckers can do it for 250¥.  TMs?  Well, you have to use one of your precious submersions just to be able to access part of the game.  Fuck you.

There's a huge number of other programs that offer enormous bonuses, like Fork or Sneak.  What do technomancers get?  Complex Forms!  Which are extremely limited, and liable to knock you out if you even try.

Like, let's look at one of the best, most accessible ones.  "Diffusion of [Attribute]".

Quote
Diffusion of [Matrix Attribute]
Target: Device • Duration: S • FV: L + 1
This complex form entry is shorthand for four different
complex forms, one for each Matrix attribute. Make
an Opposed Software + Resonance [Level] v. Willpower +
Firewall test. If you win, the target’s attribute is reduced by
your net hits. You can’t reduce an attribute to less than 1.

It doesn't look bad at all.  Due to TM's struggling offensive dice (they tend to have 2-5 less than deckers) most people suggest Diffusion of Firewall, which is probably the best choice.  So let's look at how it'd play out.

A basic host, such as that of a private business, is about Rating 4.  That's kind of low for what a player would be running against, but still.  Let's use the book's example of what an R4 Host's attributes would be.  "For example, a Rating 4 host might have Attack 5, Sleaze 4, Data Processing 7, Firewall 6."  Firewall is second highest because, while security is important, this private business really just needs to squeeze every ounce of processing power that they can out of the host, hence having the DP rating be 7.

So, you target the host, and roll.  You've got 6 Software and 6 Resonance.  They have Rating 4 (used in place of Willpower) + 6 Firewall.  You go for a L5 threading, and on average get 4 hits while they get 3.

Well...  You do reduce their Firewall by 1, but you are taking a -2 Sustaining Penalty.  So the overall effect is negative.  As Edge is a limited resource, and you certainly cannot afford to begin with much of it, I don't accept arguements of "Well I'll use Edge", as they're always given in a vacuum, assuming you have no other use for Edge and will only use it for this specific thing.

Sprites offer another tool in your matrix arsenal, but they gain OS rapidly and can cause you problems.  Not to mention, unless you Compile them at a very high Level, they aren't better than just a decker.  They have limited Tasks, which a decker could replicate many of with an Agent (who can do these things indefinitely).  Never underestimate the usefulness of having an Agent who's entire job is to continually make Matrix Perception tests on your own deck to check for foreign Marks.

TL;DR: Technomancers should be the Masters of the Matrix, in exchange for suffering in meatspace.  Instead, they suck all-around.
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: dragrubis on <04-19-16/0938:21>
...
TL;DR: Technomancers should be the Masters of the Matrix, in exchange for suffering in meatspace.  Instead, they suck all-around.

Everything is there.
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: ScytheKnight on <04-19-16/0938:21>
Summed the situation up fairly nicely Firebug.

Things actually got WORSE for Technomancers after data Trails. Deckers got even more programs, further expanding things they can do that Technomancers can not. Then there's modifying Cyberdecks, including spending a couple of thousand nuyen to hit Intuition + Data Processing +5D6 Hot Sim matrix Initiative, something that again a Technomancer needs to spend an entire submersion on.

And what did Technomancers get? A handful of submersion echoes, one of them is a rewrite of a core book Echo WHICH SHOULD HAVE BEEN A FRAGGING ERRATA FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! And another echo to improve Encryption/Decryption WHICH IS FRAGGING FOURTH EDITION MECHANICS FFS!
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: firebug on <04-19-16/1009:14>
Things actually got WORSE for Technomancers after data Trails. Deckers got even more programs, further expanding things they can do that Technomancers can not. Then there's modifying Cyberdecks, including spending a couple of thousand nuyen to hit Intuition + Data Processing +5D6 Hot Sim matrix Initiative, something that again a Technomancer needs to spend an entire submersion on.

That always upset me.  Back when TMs were the only ones who could get 5d6 Initiative Dice in VR, it felt like a little niche.  An extra 1d6 isn't a huge amount, but it felt like a good way to have them stand out.  But...  I guess not.

There's ways to play a TM and contribute to your group, but they require rather strict builds and heavy reliance on Sprites or iffy game mechanics (like using Diagnostics on absolutely everything).  TMs shouldn't be required to work so hard to have a place in a group when any given Decker will manage fine.
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: abyrn on <04-19-16/1326:28>
I'm firmly in the technomancer camp, the concept is amazing and there are tons of cool roleplaying options in the lore for them, but mechanically there are tons of issues. Besides the ones already mentioned the fact that the living persona cannot be part of a PAN is just perplexing.

It also sucks that mages in general get better spells to interact with technology than technomancer complex forms. Mages get noise manipulation spells that are better than even what a decker can do, not to mention a technomancer. Mage invisibility makes hacking cameras redundant. And analyze device basically replaces diagnostics since any spirit can sustain it for the mage. I have nothing against mages, but they should have left the technology manipulation to technomancers
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: Coyote on <04-19-16/1406:12>
...
TL;DR: Technomancers should be the Masters of the Matrix, in exchange for suffering in meatspace.  Instead, they suck all-around.

Everything is there.

Not at all. Technomancers run as it appears that they are intended and written in stories, do suffer badly.
Technomancers who give in to the dark side, use electronics to hack (a cyberdeck) and electronics to fight (smartgun, monofilament whip) are comparable to Deckers or Decker/Samurais. Machine Sprites with Diagnostics basically double the skills while also greatly increasing limits really make a huge difference.
It's not only fighting/decking... Hardware toolkits for taking ownership of stolen devices, Medkits, Autopickers, Maglock passkeys, etc.
Yes, you do lose stats and/or skills in order to start with a basic cyberdeck... but having +6 dice/+3 limits on your Hacking and Computer checks seems like enough advantage to make up for the lost stats/skills.

A 'naked' Technomancer, which seems to be how they are intended in the fluff to operate, is at a clear disadvantage all around. But a TM who uses electronics instead of their Resonance persona, and Machine Sprites to boost their abilities, is quite competitive. I don't see it as a worse design choice (in a vacuum) as having Adepts who wear armor and use weapons being at an advantage compared to Adepts who fight in a martial arts gi and without weapons.

The real issue is whether electro-TMs function differently enough from Deckers to make them worth placing in the game as a separate "class", and also why TMs are clearly better played with electronic devices, but usually written-about as if they don't use much electronics. Why are fluffy-TMs gimped compared to electro-TMs and Deckers. Not whether you can make strong TM-based characters, because you can. It just doesn't fit the common perception of a technomancer when the character puts away the cyberdeck and uses his cyberarm to shoot a smartgun or swing a monowhip.
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: firebug on <04-19-16/1426:00>
If you're gonna make a TM who uses a cyberdeck and has cybernetics...  Play a mundane decker.  You can't do anything a decker can't until you submerge, and that just allows you use shitty Complex Forms.  If you want to compile a sprite or call a registered sprite into being you have to switch off of the deck and use your normal persona...

And the answer to "how to play a hacker technomancer" should NOT be 'use Diagnostics on a cyberdeck!"  That fucking pisses me off to no end.

That is like being a 1 MAG Adept with 5 Essence taken from cyberware and never initiating or ever doing anything magic-related.  Which is something the game has specifically said "Don't let players do this." in previous editions.  It's completely missing the point of what a character who has those abilities experiences and feels.

I'm tired of Diagnostics being the only thing the TM-aspect contributes to a character when people mention playing one.  You're supposed to be this matrix semi-native, who feels the matrix in a new way and experiences everything differently.  It's supposed to be a major aspect of the character's life and outlook, the same way being a magician, and being aware of the astral, magic, the spiritual, and so on changes someone.  All the fluff supports this, and the mechanics of 4th, where TMs first appeared, reflected it.  There, a technomancer couldn't use a commlink to hack, because the skills involved were so radically different despite having the same name.
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: Coyote on <04-19-16/1812:20>
I see it as a warrior who uses weapons, and is also good without them. Using a cyberdeck and electronic devices is the way to be as good as a Decker, or better. Alternately, you CAN go without a deck, and be worse than a Decker... but a Decker is nothing without their deck.

I see it as the same argument for why a martial arts master picks up a weapon and fights in an armored jacket. Sure, it's against the fluff of what a martial arts master is, but you have the option of playing fluffy and being useful but not as good as the competition, or being as good as the competition but not fluffy. However, you (and the martial arts master) still have the option of going without equipment, while the samurai needs his weapons, and the decker needs his deck.

In other words, if a TM can be as good as a Decker WITH A DECK, but unlike a Decker still has the option of hacking without a deck, that is a good argument that TMs are in no way too weak.

The argument I would agree with is that how TMs play best is NOT fitting with the fluff, and is NOT as unique an archetype as they could have been.
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: MijRai on <04-19-16/1841:26>
But that's the thing.  Give anyone a deck (and the skills), and they can be as good as a Decker.  I mean, that's what makes a decker.  The deck.  Why bother being a technomancer from a mechanical standpoint if you were going to take the hardware anyways?  I mean, a newly Emerged technomancer who was a decker previously, that makes some sense.  But just being a technomancer who uses hardware instead of their technomancer stuff is sort of...  Besides the point? 
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: firebug on <04-19-16/1920:19>
Seriously.  If you're gonna be using a deck, you will be a shit TM, because of the money required.  Lemme rephrase...

You'll have to make a sacrifice somewhere.  Buying a deck is a huge investment, and TMs are already tight on Priorities.  So let's say you go with MAG/RES.  You drop 2 points down in it to get 2 more in Resources.  Well, add in some cyberware like you suggested, and your RES is so low, you'd be better off just being mundane and using the extra money to buy a better deck and some combat augments.

If you drop Attributes, you'll have a terrible ASDF array and real crappy dice pool.  Putting A in Attributes is 24 points--  That's a 4 across the board, or more likely, 3 in Physicals and 5 in Mentals.  Bring your LOG to 6, down your STR to 2.  If you lower that by enough points to buy a deck, that's 4 less points per priority drop.  So that'd be a 2 in all your physicals and a 1 STR at B, unless you start lowering your mentals.  Take your pick.  LOG is Data Processing, which is lame, but it's your main dice pool stat, so no go there.  INT is Sleaze and Initiative and your secondary dice pool stat...  WIL is your Firewall, resisting most attacks, your Drain Resist, and your Stun track (which is also your matrix track).  So that leaves CHA, which is the super important Attack stat.  Yeah.  I'm sure you want to have an Attack of 3 when you've just had your real deck bricked in cybercombat.

If it's Skills, you either will lack some key skills, or else be rolling 9's in everything and be utter shit.  A hacker uses about 5 skills (they can get away with minimal investment in Hardware, like 1 point).  A TM uses 7.  That shit ain't gonna happen at below C.

A decker with a backup commlink (which all should have, even normal TMs) and a couple dongles for Attack or Sleaze for if you lose your deck is going to be more worthwhile than trying to "also be a TM if you get bricked".  Plus that way you can also have good combat ability since a decker can more easily have physical attributes, and defensive 'ware.
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: Mirikon on <04-20-16/0008:34>
Yeah, TMs got thrown in the cell with Bubba the Love Troll and sandpaper for lube. Whoever wrote the TM chapter of the core book decided to take everything good about TMs, and then take a Chipotle-fueled explosive diarrhea dump on it.

See, back when they were first introduced, Technomancers were the swiss army knives of the matrix. To put it bluntly, they were glass cannons that could adapt to any situation on the fly, but being glass cannons and less capable in the meat meant that they were balanced against the less adaptable but more reliable hackers or riggers. Yes, either one. Because back then, the difference between hackers and riggers was their skills, and one could double as another one in a pinch (though they weren't as good, natch). When the Nostalgia For The Sake Of Nostalgia train hit the Matrix rules like One Punch Troll, hackers and riggers got forced into separate classes, and ne'er the two shall meet. The same... special minds who thought up that change then put the TMs in a gimp mask  and ball gag and forgot to give them a safe word.

And I'll just stop now, because this angries up my blood too much, and I'll stop being polite if I go further.
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: firebug on <04-20-16/0024:53>
I'll admit TMs were in several ways overpowered and broken in 4e.  One major way was that, the way that Slaving Devices worked, a TM could slave a large number of devices to their "bionode" and those devices couldn't be touched on the Matrix except by other technomancers, making the effectively unhackable through normal play.

For some reason, they didn't realize when making 5e that devices no longer went "inside" the Master device anymore, so that wouldn't be an issue.  Instead they decided that TMs shouldn't be able to slave any devices to their Persona now, for no reason.

Rigger Technomancers were established to be a thing in-game; people would call themselves "vehicle empaths" and such, because rather than hacking, they just interfaced with machines.  Something all TMs could do from the start due to how the matrix worked (a Control Rig wasn't needed, just acted as a boost).  Now in 5th, those make less sense, because only an initiated TM can actually jump into a vehicle...  Which, considering rigging is "being the machine", and where the majority of intimacy a technorigger would identify with...  I dunno, it just didn't need to all be undone.
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: FST_Gemstar on <04-20-16/0145:55>
I still fall in the Technomancers as we know them mechanically do not make great matrix specialists (or have to) camp... There are definitely lots of issues and they have been delineated. 

But, if folks mostly want brain-decks... just play that datajacks can direct connect living personas. If you don't want to rely on sprites and recognize that most Complex Forms require a heavy investment in starting resources to make them worthwhile and without that investment they lose helpfulness (even can be detrimental), Technomancers have no need to invest in or try to maintain a high Resonance rating. Most technomancer matrix specialists end up taking all of the decker skillset anyway, so just don't invest in sprites or Software/CFs and play like a more typical decker. You'd get the ability to direct connect at character generation, but trade off a more versatile/expensive deck for a more static/free one. Technomancers could take more advantage of 'ware this way too in ways I think are better than deckers (mental stat boosts increase matrix limits and matrix dice). I think this unbalances a bit in favor of technomancers in the long game and think technomancers get by without this change,  but it is a simple and quick fix (many don't even believe it is a fix, as it is not explicitly denied and would be more akin mage powers-ware parity).

To me, technomancers are designed as a pet-class, and sprites are the primary mechanic in which technomancers use connection to the Resonance to be Matrix wizards and meta-data fueled pseudo-adepts in the meat. If anything, a smoother way to play with sprites (that isn't as time-consuming/clunky) I think would make the play of a technomancer seem more fun, interesting, and on par.  They can be an exciting concept, but the actual play of them can be tedious for the player, GM, and table.

That mages get some better tech/matrix interaction capabilities is beyond me...

As someone who never played previous editions, I didn't know not mixing magic/tech was such a taboo. My favorite character designs try to do a lot of mixing because that is how interpret the Shadowrun universe.
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: &#24525; on <04-20-16/0154:23>
Yeah, TMs got thrown in the cell with Bubba the Love Troll and sandpaper for lube.

Can I sig that? ;D
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: Medicineman on <04-20-16/0246:45>
I can sum my answer up quite simply: love the concept, hate the execution.

Go read Emergence. Then the SR4 technomancer rules, especially Unwired.

Then read SR5s implementation. Ugh...
Same here
I had 2 TMs( a Dronomancer and a Reporter) that I really liked to play in 4A but now...I wouldn't touch a TM with a 10' Pole !

Hough!
Medicineman
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: dragrubis on <04-20-16/0608:16>
Being a TM with a deck has an other problem, you cannot protect yourself with your own deck because you can't put your fucking living persona in the PAN so a spider seeing you two personnas the decker with all the squad protected with the big shield and in the other hand the little poney TM  shoot the poney, then can destroy all the squad because the TM was the decker (then no more Will to firewall assist...).

End the run and give the spider a slap on shoulder...
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: firebug on <04-20-16/0948:31>
Your living persona can't be online while your deck's is.  You can (and have to) log out of your natural one, and use only the deck's persona.  Which should by all logic be a mildly irritating experience for technomancers.  I imagine it'd be like...  If you had to walk around everywhere with a plexiglass orb around your head; an odd layer between your natural senses and what you get to experience.
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: dragrubis on <04-20-16/1005:27>
I think it need to be online if you want to have your machine sprite... BUT you need to use only one at a time
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: Hobbes on <04-20-16/1019:21>
Yeah, Technomancer with a Deck has mechanical issues.  Trying to pick up 100k or so as a TM using the regular priority system shorts you somewhere.  And you gain very, very little from picking up a Deck.  Seriously, just play a Decker if you want to use a Deck.  If you want large hacking pools as a TM you use a horde of small to medium Sprites, or compile one Monster Crack Sprite and send it on its way.  Either way works.

A Technomancer has enough dice pool to hack on the fly most devices without an issue, the problem is Hosts and the larger dice pools needed.  The only method TMs have to get larger dice pools is with Sprites.  That isn't an issue mechanically, but its not a play style everyone is interested in.  Pet classes can be a PITA at any table in any game.   
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: firebug on <04-20-16/1037:57>
Fair enough; playing entirely based on Sprites IS possible, but a hassle.  The people who've been around in the previous edition and have read the various fictions just know that isn't how technomancers are intended to be.
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: Mirikon on <04-20-16/1126:11>
Yeah, TMs got thrown in the cell with Bubba the Love Troll and sandpaper for lube.

Can I sig that? ;D
Be my guest!

Fair enough; playing entirely based on Sprites IS possible, but a hassle.  The people who've been around in the previous edition and have read the various fictions just know that isn't how technomancers are intended to be.

#TRUTH

Seriously, did the people writing TM rules for 5th actually READ Emergence, or any of the 4th ed rules, or ANY of the fictions involving TMs? As it is, TMs have officially replaced riggers as the red headed stepchild of SR.
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: &#24525; on <04-21-16/1449:32>
Has anyone houseruled material from Unwired in 5th?
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: Mirikon on <04-21-16/1528:14>
No, since the matrix rules have changed so dramatically, most of that stuff would be really hard to fit now. Like, y'know, the ENTIRE TM STREAM BASED ON RIGGING!!!
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: Moonshine Fox on <04-22-16/0929:16>
Has anyone houseruled material from Unwired in 5th?

I've converted some of the material, but like Mirikon said, with how much the matrix and decking rules have changed, some of that stuff is going to need a big time overhaul to get a working right again. Kinda that base problem with technos in general when you get down to it.
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: firebug on <04-22-16/0935:04>
Yeah, compared to how they used to work, Technomancers have been completely changed.  Literally nothing works the way it used to besides sprites when it comes to TMs and the Matrix.

Not just that, but other ways it changed as well...  Like, with the change of initiative passes, my favorite echo Mesh Reality would be a lot more bookkeeping in 5th if it worked the exact same.
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on <04-22-16/0938:18>
Mesh Reality is so cool. It's one way to significantly differentiate Technomancers from Deckers by allowing the former to kind of co-exist in the physical and digital simultaneously.

Of course, in 5th it's even harder to be a Technomancer with decent mental and physical stats, so the usefulness of the echo is diminished right out of the gate unless you make a few house rules.
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: firebug on <04-22-16/0948:09>
Of course, in 5th it's even harder to be a Technomancer with decent mental and physical stats, so the usefulness of the echo is diminished right out of the gate unless you make a few house rules.

I don't think so.  IMO, the benefit of Mesh Reality was reducing how vulnerable you were in VR.  It didn't give you extra passes, and most TMs didn't have more than one in meatspace.  But it meant you could be doing VR stuff, with all the VR bonuses, without having to be unconscious hiding behind a crate somewhere.

My original 4e concept for Firebug had her using Mesh Reality to be jumped into her pimped out motorcycle while still conscious so she could pitch molotovs at other riders and stuff still.  But since rigger technos are so gimped in 5th, that's not doable for even more reasons...

It didn't really make you that much stronger, but it did so in a really cool and unique way that made TMs seem incredible, since they were doing something that should have been totally impossible.
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on <04-22-16/1004:04>
Definitely agree on the rule of cool of it.

Now that I think about it, though, can't deckers do the same by disabling the RAS override of their SIM module? That was definitely a thing prior to SR4, but I think it was in SR4 as well and it's even mentioned in SR5 under the sim chip descriptions.
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: dragrubis on <04-22-16/1030:43>
I think bio-wire, acceleration echoes can be transformed with (relative) ease (and for those echoes leveling by bying high levels have a sens
Mesh reality need some work ( you can you 2 différent colors for dice) But it has an other good effect, you become more active in meat world to. (not a lot of actions but your have a better init to do it)

I think the Resonance Riding new echos is a "little" start and can be reinforced with an advanced echoes adding possibilties with each following submersion grade... Compile Sprite, Register Sprite or Thread Complex form or use the best attribute - tool or living persona-.or use the tool to take matricial damages... (with 4 submersion grade in total you can do everything then)

E-sens is a big add on for technomancer since it upgrade with a new sens that detect technologie. Including Cyber.

Resonance trodes, widget, and a lot of them are usefull ANd easy to update.

Overclocking and advanced overclocking need to come back too...

Technomancer need to have another echoes :
An echoes that can give modifiable bonus to matricial attributes just like decker do it (1 floating point per 2 submersion grade) giving a use to the reconfiguration action
An echoes that reduce maintaining cost of CF and it may be upgraded : reducing total malus from  sustaining CF by (submersion grade)
An echos that reduce know FC fading values with each submersion permit you to reduce 1 point of fading to one of your FC up to 3 point by FC

I think a new complex form to acquire 1 resonance program by 2 hit can be a good thing too so the resonance program echoes is less usefull exept for some need to have always program)
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: firebug on <04-22-16/1135:09>
Definitely agree on the rule of cool of it.

Now that I think about it, though, can't deckers do the same by disabling the RAS override of their SIM module? That was definitely a thing prior to SR4, but I think it was in SR4 as well and it's even mentioned in SR5 under the sim chip descriptions.

There's absolutely no rules for it.  It's different for MoodChip and TripChip BTLs, since they're altering your experiences, not overwriting them.  Suffice to say though, if it took mystical powers in SR4 to do it, I'd be really pissed if normal deckers could just tweak a bit and have it.

The Hitchhiker program is shitty enough at that sort of thing already.
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on <04-22-16/1352:37>
SR4A and earlier has rules for disabling the RAS Override, which is what makes you go ragdoll when using VR.
Quote from: SR4A page 328
As a safety precaution, sim mods override your motor functions while you are fully immersed in VR/simsense, so that you don’t blindly thrash around in the real world and potentially injure yourself or break things. This means that your physical body is limp while you’re online, as if you were sleeping. This reticular activation system (RAS) override can also be disabled with a Hardware + Logic (5, 1 hour) Extended Test, at the user’s own risk.

If I remember correctly, if you disabled the RAS Override in SR3 and previous editions you were at a +8 to all target numbers for Perception, and a +4 to all target numbers for any physical activity.
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: firebug on <04-22-16/1522:55>
Mmkay.  I don't see how you could actually do anything worthwhile though, seeing as you'd still be seeing VR.  You'd just kind of...  Well, as it says "blindly thrash around in the real world and potentially injure yourself or break things".
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on <04-22-16/1632:33>
Again, in previous editions you took penalties to Perception and physical actions, but you were experiencing both physical and virtual realities simultaneously. A +8 to Perception target numbers in SR3 definitely meant you had stiff penalties, but you could still differentiate between a wall and an open space but spotting the person sneaking up on you would be very very difficult.

It's a Mesh Reality light feature, if you will. Deckers can operate in both realities at the same time, but Technomancers do it better.
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: Sterling on <04-24-16/0507:18>
Hoping that I can offer a dissenting opinion without being flamed, but I'd be happy if every Technomancer was suddenly infected by the Monads, boarded a ship to Mars and were never heard from again.

I don't like Technomancers as PCs.  They aren't different enough from Deckers in the role they provide to a team to warrant being available.

As threats, they're fantastic.  When they were first introduced the level of paranoia as people's commlinks were hacked was very useful to me as a GM.

Horizon and Clockwork have the right idea: grab 'em and dissect their brains.  For cash.
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: Hobbes on <04-24-16/0813:35>
I don't think people play Technomancers for the mechanical difference.  Its a character thing.  But yes, Technomancers are essentially Deckers at the end of the day.  Much like Physical Adepts are essentially Samurais or Faces.  Same skills, different flavor. 

The mechanical implementation of Technomancers was poor, IMO.  Mainly because it doesn't match the established fluff as well as the other Archetypes.  If the fluff for Technomancers was spending most of their time in a locked room compiling and registering over and over and over.  Then spring into action with a horde of sparkly matrix bits doing the heavy lifting.  Bang, nailed it.  But that isn't the case.   
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: Mirikon on <04-25-16/0127:06>
Sterling, that's part of the problem. Back in 4E, they were functionally different from Hackers/Riggers. It was a Tactical vs Strategic thing. They were the swiss army knives of the matrix, able to adapt to things on the fly, though they were definitely glass cannons, which made other types more reliable at the end of the day. It is the same as the basic argument between Wizards and Sorcerers in D&D. Both are primary arcane casters, and definitely fit the same role, but they do it in different ways.

Fast forward to 5E, and in addition to effectively bringing back class structures that cannot be deviated from (gone are the days of a hacker rigging a drone or two to help with the defense, or a rigger actually being able to protect his own fragging drones in cybercombat), they've absolutely gutted what made the Technomancer unique, and then implemented what was left with all the care and attention to detail of a charging rhinoceros in a field of cow pies. In other words, what you're feeling about TMs is a direct result of how they got absolutely and completely bent over in the prison shower by Bubba the Love Troll. And yes, I don't care if that triggers people. How they abused TMs this edition is a crying shame.
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: FST_Gemstar on <04-27-16/2233:50>
Not to troll...

But something I still want to get clarification on that I still think is up in the air (3 years into 5th): Does Diagnostics work on Defense tests if working on Reaction Enhancers?

Attribute Only teamwork tests are a thing with bonus dice up to the highest attribute in the test.

This would make technomancer pseudo-adepts a thing (with an effect similar lots investment in Combat Sense). I vote for it (per what I read RAW), but I can see that using it on your team can feel very overpowered.

(I still wish that you can only use Diagnostics on your own gear/ware).
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: firebug on <04-27-16/2324:52>
Not to troll...

But something I still want to get clarification on that I still think is up in the air (3 years into 5th): Does Diagnostics work on Defense tests if working on Reaction Enhancers?

Attribute Only teamwork tests are a thing with bonus dice up to the highest attribute in the test.

This would make technomancer pseudo-adepts a thing (with an effect similar lots investment in Combat Sense). I vote for it (per what I read RAW), but I can see that using it on your team can feel very overpowered.

(I still wish that you can only use Diagnostics on your own gear/ware).

As written, it'd be able to be explained as logical, since you're "using" the reaction enhancers.  I did a similar thing by using Diagnostics on Skillwires (until they got a stealth-nerf in Chrome Flesh for some reason, requiring twice as much Essence).  The end result was that I could actually have an 11 dice pool with something I have no actual rating in...

Really though, it's all cheese that probably shouldn't be doable.  Especially to attribute-boosting things.  If it were any other archetype, it'd be obviously overpowered, but since a TM is such shit, they can have such a broken ability as Diagnostics more or less become their one "saving grace" and still be underpowered.  I hate it.  Diagnostics shouldn't be so broken, and TMs shouldn't need it just to function in the first place.
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: FST_Gemstar on <04-27-16/2359:56>
It's a clunky mechanic, but I think it is designed to be the process in which technomancers keep up with everyone else. Especially that registering is free, to me, means that sprites are intended to get lots of use for more typical actions (unlike bound spirits that are more powerful but are intended to be used more sparingly).

For me, the reaction enhancer/sprite combo is a way to keep up with magical/cybered characters (combat sense, reaction enhancers/wired reflexes. improved reflexes, etc.). Adepts and highly 'wared characters can get defense pools so high (especially adepts - sheesh, standard combat mage build - Soft-capped Reaction/Intuition, Maxed Agility with Muscle Toners, Agile Defender, and Magic 5 for Improved Reflexes 2 and Combat Sense 5, they can rain bullets and avoid all but direct magic and AOE attacks).  I'm not asking for physical initiative boosts, just a way to leverage wireless matrix information to not get shot as easily.

I would be ok with ambient Noise penalties affecting these bonuses too, and think it would make technomancers more dynamic, recognize their powers are more contextual, and be  conscientious of the wireless signals around them. ("Hey guys, don't expect me to Neo it when we are on that submarine".)
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: dragrubis on <04-28-16/0644:55>
I would be ok with ambient Noise penalties affecting these bonuses too, and think it would make technomancers more dynamic, recognize their powers are more contextual, and be  conscientious of the wireless signals around them. ("Hey guys, don't expect me to Neo it when we are on that submarine".)

Except diagnostic is resonance tool: not affected by Noise...
Title: Re: Technomancers....what do you think?
Post by: FST_Gemstar on <04-28-16/1110:45>
I would be ok with ambient Noise penalties affecting these bonuses too, and think it would make technomancers more dynamic, recognize their powers are more contextual, and be  conscientious of the wireless signals around them. ("Hey guys, don't expect me to Neo it when we are on that submarine".)

Except diagnostic is resonance tool: not affected by Noise...

I know. I am just saying I rather reinterpret that it is affected by Noise if it allows for broader applications of Diagnostics and removing the stigma of its OPness.