[Ryo]

I think you fail to understand why people will pay so much more for a Mac than a windows machine. Or why they will shell out $1,200 for a handbag with some fancy name on it. The desire to fit in is huge, though hard to quantify in a game mechanic. While implants might be more common in the 6th world, they are still not considered appropriate for some social settings, and in other situations it's considered polite to at least maintain the illusion of normalcy.
It comes down to how your table plays, though I do think the game is intended to include social prejudice(against Trolls, for example), and I think for most tables a Face certainly should spring for the synthetic arm, while the Orc sammie can happily sport two heavily modified obvious.

People pay more for a Mac and shell out 1200 for a handbag because they believe wholeheartedly that those are superior products to the alternative. It has nothing to do with fitting in. That analogy does not work for synthetic cyberlimbs, since we have mechanical game numbers that spell out, clear as day, that synthetic limbs are inferior to obvious ones. They hold less and cost more.

[Rotor]

Synthetic limbs  should cost less essence, that's evident, at least for me

[Namikaze]

I think you fail to understand why people will pay so much more for a Mac than a windows machine. Or why they will shell out $1,200 for a handbag with some fancy name on it. The desire to fit in is huge, though hard to quantify in a game mechanic. While implants might be more common in the 6th world, they are still not considered appropriate for some social settings, and in other situations it's considered polite to at least maintain the illusion of normalcy.
It comes down to how your table plays, though I do think the game is intended to include social prejudice(against Trolls, for example), and I think for most tables a Face certainly should spring for the synthetic arm, while the Orc sammie can happily sport two heavily modified obvious.

People pay more for a Mac and shell out 1200 for a handbag because they believe wholeheartedly that those are superior products to the alternative. It has nothing to do with fitting in. That analogy does not work for synthetic cyberlimbs, since we have mechanical game numbers that spell out, clear as day, that synthetic limbs are inferior to obvious ones. They hold less and cost more.

Not to help fuel the Mac vs. PC debate, but I think it's a good analogy to this issue.  Macs have software and hardware that is in essence similar to what a PC has, but has limited functionality in some areas.  One thing that Macs have in abundance is a certain "cool" factor, along with everything that comes with said factor.  Thus, Macs are similar to the synthetic cyberlimbs.

PCs are more technically minded, as they allow their users to do more with hardware and software configuration, but they lack that coolness and there's a certain stigma that comes from being a PC guy in a Mac environment.  Many Mac users see PC users as nerds.  Many PC users see Mac users as sheep.  Ultimately, the technical flexibility of an obvious cyberarm, along with the stigma that comes with it is similar to that of a PC.

So I'd say that his analogy is sufficient for explanation.

As far as the overall debate goes, I think the synthetic arms are definitely the better option for some things, and it's up to the GM of each table to enforce the stigma that comes from obvious cyberlimbs.  If a GM wants to houserule things to be a little laxer, it might behoove said GM to also make synthetic cyberlimbs hold more capacity and/or cost less nuyen.

[MadBear]

I think you fail to understand why people will pay so much more for a Mac than a windows machine. Or why they will shell out $1,200 for a handbag with some fancy name on it. The desire to fit in is huge, though hard to quantify in a game mechanic. While implants might be more common in the 6th world, they are still not considered appropriate for some social settings, and in other situations it's considered polite to at least maintain the illusion of normalcy.
It comes down to how your table plays, though I do think the game is intended to include social prejudice(against Trolls, for example), and I think for most tables a Face certainly should spring for the synthetic arm, while the Orc sammie can happily sport two heavily modified obvious.

People pay more for a Mac and shell out 1200 for a handbag because they believe wholeheartedly that those are superior products to the alternative. It has nothing to do with fitting in. That analogy does not work for synthetic cyberlimbs, since we have mechanical game numbers that spell out, clear as day, that synthetic limbs are inferior to obvious ones. They hold less and cost more.

I disagree. You are talking about traits that are easily quantifiable, there are no rules for trends or consumer appeal or even just fitting in. You also have to consider the engineering of the limb. In an obvious limb you have more room to place pivot points, more room for larger hydrolics, etc, while in a synthetic limb it has to conform to the shape of a normal limb, so your pivot points, etc, have to be closer to the structure, AND they have to be engineered to move like a normal limb(like muscles beneath skin instead of pistons), rather than the more efficient pistons and such. That's why they cost more and have less capacity.
I guess a better analogy would be a desktop machine vs a laptop. Desktops have more capacity for upgrades, while lap tops are more sleek and are a transportable. Both have similar capabilities regarding basic function. I'm not a computer guy, so maybe this analogy will break down too, I don't really know if prices are comparable, but I think you get the point.

[Top Dog]

I never understood the way Shadowrun deals with synthetic vs. obvious, as the concealability modifier does not at all warrant the drawbacks, especially since it doesn't apply to touch. Apparently its 2075 and they still haven't figured out how to make synthetic skin feel real, even though we can do that passably already.

For most sane people, the drawbacks are quite small. It's more expensive, sure, but that's certainly worth having an arm that looks human instead of some metal thing.

Capacity doesn't factor into it for most people, because most people don't need it. Normal people don't build guns or cyberdecks or scanners into their arms. From an in-world perspective, then, the drawbacks make perfect sense. The human-like skin is more costly then a simple paint job, and making everything fit inside a human-sized arm (minus skin) leaves less room for other things. Since capacity is a nonfactor for most people, it doesn't affect price.

From a gameplay balance perspective, I agree - obvious cyberlimbs do have a lot of benefit over synthetic ones. But then, that sort of fits, too - as a runner, it's easy to give up that extra bit of normalcy for that extra bit of edge on the job. Which is, incidentally, why I would agree with the lower essence cost.

[Ryo]

If the big advantage to synthetic limbs is supposed to be a lack of stigma, that should be mentioned in the description of the item, but it's not. In fact, where is all this supposed cyberlimb stigma? I've never seen that come up at all, and other than the 'upper-crust society and purist crowd' mentioned under obvious cyberlimbs, I see no indication that it would actually be an issue. Cyberlimbs aren't even listed in the social modifiers table. So at best, this sounds like a purely fluff/flavor text thing, and giving players mechanical penalties purely for flavor reasons is silly. Even negative qualities have an upside.

Synthetic cyberlimbs only mention a concealability modifier, which makes it sound like the advantage is supposed to be for hiding the fact you have cyberlimbs. However, it completely fails at accomplishing that. If I'm trying to hide my cyberlimbs, well then I have three priorities there, in order of importance: A: That it passes MAD and Cyberware scanners, B: That it passes a pat down. C: That it isn't spotted at a glance. Synthetic Cyberlimbs only do anything against C, and you can do the same with obvious cyberlimbs by wearing concealing clothes.

In any situation where it being known you're cybered would actually be bad, your synthetic limbs are basically guaranteed to be spotted. Even in the most security relaxed upper-crust event around, you better hope that cyberlimb hating corp exec your face is meeting doesn't shake his hand, because then he's immediately found out.

If it's going to have lower capacity and higher cost, it should cost less essence as well. That seems like a fair trade to me. If not, then the stealth nature of it should be a lot more effective. It should have a higher threshold against scanners, and it needs synthetic skin that feels real, bleeds, sweats and so on, like the Mimic modification for drones listed in Arsenal (Which means this technology does exist in shadowrun, but nobody ever thought to apply it to cyberlimbs for some bizarre reason)

[Namikaze]

I agree with your assesment about the synthetic arms needing a lower Essence cost, but the idea of not seeing the stigma is entirely based upon the way your GM is handling the game's environment.  Personally, if I'm going to have my players go to a place where obvious cyber is frowned upon, they suffer a social penalty based on the amount of obvious cyber they have.  If they make efforts to hide the cyber in some way (disguise kit, for example) then they can offset the penalty in some fashion.

But again, the idea of the stigma is completely, 100% entirely based on how your GM runs the board and therefore changes like this should be houseruled to make the accomodations to the GM's game style.

[Anarkitty]

From a social perspective, the point isn't that no one can tell you have a cyberlimb, the point is that you are making an effort to make it look normal and blend in.  In 2075 cyber is everywhere, but the average Joe on the street will have synthetic because obvious chrome is predominantly associated with Shadowrunners, gangers, Urban Brawlers, and other antisocial, criminal types.
The media is largely responsible.  Action trids are as close as the average citizen ever gets to the shadows, and the cliche of the chomed-up street sam or gilette has become ingrained into the popular psyche in 2070.

In our own timeline, there are lots of things that used to be common but have become unpopular with the general population because of their association with a particular criminal or counterculture subgroup.  Black trench coats, Hitler mustaches, leather pants, bandannas (especially red or blue), double-breasted suits, thick black glasses frames; all have taken on specific associations over time that have caused them to be less popular in general.  This in turn feeds back and makes them even more popular with the groups who do wear them and posers/fans/groupies because it becomes "theirs".

Basically, obvious chrome identifies you as a person who values the functionality of their cyber more than they value fitting into society.  It doesn't mean you are a criminal, you could be a soldier, a bodyguard, a cop, or even a sports star.  That's why an across-the-board social modifier doesn't exist. 
The Street Sam infiltrating an Urban Brawl league event wouldn't raise any eyebrows with his 5.9 essence worth of gleaming chrome, and might even get a social benefit, but he'd better have a pretty good story to tell if he wants to attend a fancy ball, and either way he stands out, and people are going to remember him. 
The face's synthetic arm wouldn't raise any eyebrows at even the fanciest parties because she is making a socially acceptable attempt to hide it.  It doesn't stand out as unusual and the socially acceptable response is to ignore it if you even notice it.

To put it another way, a synthetic limb is a prosthetic first and a toolbox/weapon second.  An obvious limb reverses that priority in a way that is very visible.

[CanRay]

Obvious is great for some cultures, and less so for others.  It all depends on the type of view you have, as well as the type of message you want to project about yourself.

Some Transhumanists would be happy with obvious cybernetics, and trying to promote a positive view of them.

Trying, mind you.

[MadBear]

There's also the issue of WHY people get such limbs in the first place.
Cybernetic prosthetics are expensive, too expensive to get just because they are fashionable, and are only cost effective for a very select few types of jobs. Dock workers, for instance, while they might appreciate the ability to lift heavier loads, such a worker would not likely be willing to sink in half a year's to a year's wages into a limb or two.  Even the wealthy elite would not likely replace a perfectly good arm with a prosthetic as a sign of wealth, nor as part of a fashion trend. Datajacks are one thing, they serve a very function, are not invasive or obvious or offend too many sensibilities, and are treated no differently than getting your ears pieced today. But that acceptance of invasive tech only goes so far, a datajack is one thing, and entire leg is another.. Even eyes would be more common among the working class, as they are more affordable, and I can come up with an endless list of jobs where they would be advantageous.
But arms and legs?
It seems to me, that aside from military and corp/sec applications, about the only real reason to get a cyberlimb, would be to replace a lost one. Just like today in the real world. Nobody goes and cuts off an arm to get a plastic prosthetic. I know, I know, SR cyberlimbs are a lot more advanced than today's prosthetics.
So who gets these things, and why?

[redwolf]

one word argent  !

[The other Bandit]

WHY would people pay so much to replace a perfectly good arm or leg?

Simple: Put an I-Pod in it, make some trid hero have one in an awesome movie franchise, start an aggressive marketing campaign.
The people WILL buy awesome stuff. Not everyone, but there will be a sub-culture immediately.

Why are there 18 year old kids around today that sink thousands of dollars into tuned cars? I know some of those folks and they save every penny just to get some mods for their allready perfectly working ride.

I like to be my Shadowrun more on the transhumanistic side, its gotta be that way to balance out the dragons and magic (which are, some crazy how, allways quite accepted by the general public).

[MadBear]

But this is more than just buying a shiny new trendy car or iWhatever, this is major surgery, the cutting off of part of your body. That's a bit more involved, a bit more traumatic, and no matter how common place datajacks are there will still be hesitation to cu off something like an arm. Certainly less in 2070 than today, but it would still be there...

[Anarkitty]

It's also a generally more dangerous world, and trauma-medicine technology has not advanced nearly as fast or as far as trauma-causing technology.  Between gangs, crime, corp fights, shadowrunners and the like, the percentage of even ordinary people who have sustained some sort of serious injury is probably much higher than it is today.  That doesn't even take into account active and retired people who actually have dangerous jobs like runners, mercenaries, cops and soldiers.

Cybertech is so good and so common, a doctor is more likely to cut off and replace a part of your body that is seriously damaged than to try and save it and risk infection, gangrene and the like.  That also means more people are going to survive injuries that might kill them today.  Corp employees may just be faceless cogs, but they do get some benefits, and those include medical care and basic cyberlimbs if they need them.  Cybereyes are the standard fix for anything less than 20/20 vision, to the point where corrective lenses are unusual outside of the Awakened subcultures.

In the face of cyber being so common already, it is much easier to imagine people also choosing to get it when they don't need it as well.

[The other Bandit]

Well image you get into the crossfire of a gang shooting and catch some punks 12Gauge explosive shell in the knee. You can wait weeks for a cloned vat grown natural replacement or you you get cybernetic replacement and walk a few days later. I honestly can see the appeal.
Plus drilling a hole in you skull so you can subject you vulnerable sqishy brain to all sorts of possible harm sounds just as crazy to me, especially when trodes have almost zero drawbacks.

Also its about contrast in my vision of the Shadowrun universe:

If there are dragons, insect spirits and unknown eldritch horrors lurking in the awakened 6th world, there damn well will be bioengeneered, cybernetic, badass commandos to defend (trans)humankind.