Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: DeathEatsCurry on <12-10-13/1725:25>
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So after crunching with chargen for a while Im at an impasse.
Are synthetic limbs in any way worth it over obvious ones? Especially for arms the 7 capacity difference seems too much to give up. Maybe Im just too greedy, wanting to shove two sensors, armor and a shock hand into a single arm :p
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If you're going to be a face or attempt to blend into "normal" society, you'll want the synthetic limbs. If you're going to be a Street Sam murder machine, go Obvious so you can pack more junk in there to kill things.
So, what's your role?
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Decker, which is what makes it tricky, at least a bit. As I'll be relying on it for combat (Trick it out + gun + shock hand), I want all the capacity I squeeze out of it, maybe put in some sensors for extra goodies. But as a decker, I'm often in a position where I don't want to stand out, be it in combat or in a social situation.
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One thing about synthetic skin, it doesn't heal and needs replacing all the time. Not expensive, but annoying.
So says Hatchetman. *Pours a 40 on the curb*
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Decker, which is what makes it tricky, at least a bit. As I'll be relying on it for combat (Trick it out + gun + shock hand), I want all the capacity I squeeze out of it, maybe put in some sensors for extra goodies. But as a decker, I'm often in a position where I don't want to stand out, be it in combat or in a social situation.
I'd lean towards synthetic then. Unless there are a bunch of things that you want in it, keeping a low profile seems like it might be the better bet, at least to me. You should be able to pack enough toys to keep things interesting with a normal looking limb and should try and leave the obvious stuff to the Street Sam.
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Even obvious limbs are completely fine in "normal" society. Unless SR5 has drastically changed things, but I can't check the book right now, cyberlimbs are common for normal society. Not restricted or forbidden, and single digit availability means they stand out very little. Its 2075, not 2005, get with the times :P. And unless you need physical access to it, long sleeves on a shirt or coat cover up all but the hand. And as AR gloves are an equally common accessory, having the entire skin of the arm covered is pretty easy.
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Even obvious limbs are completely fine in "normal" society. Unless SR5 has drastically changed things, but I can't check the book right now, cyberlimbs are common for normal society. Not restricted or forbidden, and single digit availability means they stand out very little. Its 2075, not 2005, get with the times :P. And unless you need physical access to it, long sleeves on a shirt or coat cover up all but the hand. And as AR gloves are an equally common accessory, having the entire skin of the arm covered is pretty easy.
This is exactly how i see it.
Plus: What Shadowrunner dosn't wear gloves? ... you leave prints everywhere.
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A single limb doesn't draw that much attention, though they're going out of style with regrown limbs getting cheaper so will draw attention in some circles. Multiuple, however, will still draw unwanted attention, especially if they're used by a bulky street sam.
And yes, my character always wears gloves. Shock Gloves, that is. :P
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Even obvious limbs are completely fine in "normal" society.
So are visible tattoos and piercing nowadays, but they still draw attention. In business circles they make you stand out like a black sheep. Officially, they are completely fine, but many people not only take note of them, they assume things about you. And remember you.
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Let's not forget covering obvious limbs up, as Godwyn mentioned. The book even states on page 456 that
"Obvious cyberlimbs: These implants are immediately recognizable as artificial limbs unless you cover them with clothing."
I'd wager than even a street sam with multiple obvious artificial limbs would be able to blend quite perfectly into environments like the "upper-crust society and the purist crowd", until they reach a cyberware scanner or metal detector, of course.
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OK, how about infiltrating pool-parties? :-P
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At the end of the day? No runner is likely to be suited to every single job, save perhaps some adepts and mages. Runners tend to be specialized, and what it feels like at this point, is that you're kinda trying to be ready for any job, anywhere, anyhow. Find a niche, be extremely good at certain kinds of jobs, and those jobs will find you. Want to have the full kit and kaboodle with your cyberlimbs? Go obvious, cover it with clothing, and don't try to infiltrate pool parties except as a chaperone who stands there in black suit and tie, with black gloves. Want to be a face? Might be better off leaving the obvious cyber to your street sam. Want to be a decker? Major in decking (its really not one of those roles you should just dabble in) and don't try to take more than one 'minor' if you take a minor at all. I've... been learning some hard lessons lately about trying to do everything lately myself, so trust me, I feel the pain. Aside from that, a lot of those things that take capacity can also be installed in a meat arm for some essence, and that very nicely cuts the confusion on 'synthetic' or 'cyber.' Given that, it might be best to leave the cyberlimbs to the guy that needs the extra boxes of physical track as part of their job (like the troll street samurai who expects he will have all the bullets fired at him forever. Plenty of guards forget the rule of geek the mage when they see an 8 foot tall mass of metahumanity coming at them.)
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One word; wetsuit.
"Oh, I have sensitive skin and I just get cold so quickly. Why yes, even when the sun is out and it's 100 degrees Fahrenheit. Yes, it's a terrible affliction, but the wetsuit really does help..."
*rolls Con*
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*rolls Con*
Don't forget the lower Limits because of lower Essence ;)
with a lower Dance
Medicineman
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Even obvious limbs are completely fine in "normal" society.
So are visible tattoos and piercing nowadays, but they still draw attention. In business circles they make you stand out like a black sheep. Officially, they are completely fine, but many people not only take note of them, they assume things about you. And remember you.
I don't know where you live, but I know where I am tattoos are not "accepted." The people I know with tattoo sleeves are not allowed to wear short sleeves to work. That is not accepted. Not being illegal is not the same thing as being accepted. Many of them would lose their jobs if they showed up with them visible.
The first person in SR to receive a true cyberlimb was a professional violinist if I recall. Cyberlimbs have had a degree of acceptance in society often because of what they represent, technological triumph over debilitating injury. Being noticed but accepted and being unnoticed and ignored are different things. Sure having a cyberlimb may make one slightly more memorable, but is it really going to be any more so than a 6+ charisma face? That makes them on par with the most attractive people on the planet. That stands out, a lot.
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My thanks to the points made on both sides! I think in the end I'll run with obvious cyber. The disadvantage of cyber over synthetic is too easily overcome by dressing accordingly, especially once you factor in that any cyber detection (Scanners, but also Assensing) doesn't distinguish. For a Runner, I get the feeling obvious has too much of an edge over synthetic.
The fact it's cheaper helps too. Gotta pinch those pennies, chummers.
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High charisma does not necessarily equal "most beautiful person on the planet". The SR5 book describes Charisma also as a measure of force of personality; you can be bland looking (as represented by the Bland quality) and still be incredibly persuasive (high charisma).
Acceptance and "fitting in" is highly situational. As illustrated by the pool example, no character can blend in in all situations. A persuasive but bland Elf will still stand out like a signal flare in the Ork Underground, whereas a cybered-up razorboy ork will attract little to no attention unless he starts causing a ruckus.
Take those same two characters and move them to a high-society ball, and suddenly the ork is the sore thumb. Put either of them in front of the Corporate Court, and they're both likely to be out of their depth.
TL;DR
Cyberware, and obvious cyberlimbs in particular, should in my opinion not be a huge factor in most social situations as long as it's concealed by clothing unless a) you're dealing with someone who has a bias against cyberware and b) they have a means to detect it. It is also my opinions that having a single cyberarm shouldn't somehow suddenly make you an obvious "threat" from a mechanical standopoint, as this would greatly disadvantage characters who choose cyberware over bioware, or obvious over synthetic; particularly since synthetic cyberware carries the exact same essence loss, and so the "wrongness" of the ware is present equally in both characters.
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I don't know where you live, but I know where I am tattoos are not "accepted." The people I know with tattoo sleeves are not allowed to wear short sleeves to work. That is not accepted. Not being illegal is not the same thing as being accepted. Many of them would lose their jobs if they showed up with them visible.
Well, initially I wrote exactly that, but I thought that might sound too offensive... =)
Cyberlimbs have had a degree of acceptance in society often because of what they represent, technological triumph over debilitating injury.
That's what you have synthetic limbs for ;-) I don't really think that obvious limbs share the same degree of acceptance. It's the difference between a visible tattoo on your neck and a hidden tattoo on your back. But of course YMMV. I like my SR to have as much stratification (maybe not the best use of the word, but I hope you catch my drift) as possible - punk dystopian setting and all that.
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Charisma isn't purely attractive appearance, it's a lot about the force of personality, your voice, how you use it all.
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It seems to me that the distinction is largely one of perception.
The average non-runner of middle class or above will almost always have synthetic, because it isn't obvious. If it is replacing a debilitating injury or birth defect, generally the wearer will want to downplay it as much as possible. In those settings an obvious cyberlimb makes a statement because it is essentially a body modification. It is not socially unacceptable but it stands out as different in the same way flashy tattoos, unusual piercings, bright colored hair or other "unnatural" cosmetic changes do.
Among the lower classes, obvious limbs would be more common, because they are cheaper and easier to get, probably easier to find second-hand as well. In those settings an obvious cyberlimb wouldn't really stand out unless it is especially flashy. An expensive, high-quality synthetic limb might actually gather more attention in some circles.
The exact effects of all of this is up to the GM, of course, and may vary depending on specific groups.
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Let's not forget covering obvious limbs up, as Godwyn mentioned. The book even states on page 456 that
"Obvious cyberlimbs: These implants are immediately recognizable as artificial limbs unless you cover them with clothing."
I'd wager than even a street sam with multiple obvious artificial limbs would be able to blend quite perfectly into environments like the "upper-crust society and the purist crowd", until they reach a cyberware scanner or metal detector, of course.
That sentence means that you automatically detect cyberlimbs if you don't cover them. That doesn't mean that you automatically hide them if you do cover them (it's called denying the antecedent).
If you have uncovered obvious cyberlimbs, people automatically know you have them. If you have uncovered synthetic cyberlimbs or covered cymberlimbs (any), you get to roll to conceal, with the synthetic ones getting a -8 concealability. I'd assume covering the limb up also helps somewhat for a synthetic one but I'm not sure how the rules cover that (perhaps it counts as "actively hiding gear"?). At any rate, covering up obvious cyberlimbs isn't an all-access pass to undetectability. Certainly not in a wetsuit.
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Let's not forget covering obvious limbs up, as Godwyn mentioned. The book even states on page 456 that
"Obvious cyberlimbs: These implants are immediately recognizable as artificial limbs unless you cover them with clothing."
I'd wager than even a street sam with multiple obvious artificial limbs would be able to blend quite perfectly into environments like the "upper-crust society and the purist crowd", until they reach a cyberware scanner or metal detector, of course.
That sentence means that you automatically detect cyberlimbs if you don't cover them. That doesn't mean that you automatically hide them if you do cover them (it's called denying the antecedent).
If you have uncovered obvious cyberlimbs, people automatically know you have them. If you have uncovered synthetic cyberlimbs or covered cymberlimbs (any), you get to roll to conceal, with the synthetic ones getting a -8 concealability. I'd assume covering the limb up also helps somewhat for a synthetic one but I'm not sure how the rules cover that (perhaps it counts as "actively hiding gear"?). At any rate, covering up obvious cyberlimbs isn't an all-access pass to undetectability. Certainly not in a wetsuit.
This is a good point. Obvious Cyberlimbs are not just a different color. They're bulkier and not necessarily shaped like a metahuman arm. That is what accounts for the increased capacity: function dictates form.
This would be less obvious, but still probably visible, through clothing.
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I disagree that this is a case of inverse error, Top Dog. Obvious cyberlimbs "may" be bulkier than normal limbs, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they automatically stand out, either. Case in point, the limbs cannot be customized (in terms of stats) beyond the frame they are fitted to.
As such, unless there is a large discrepancy between the characters body, strength, and agility attributes and those of the limbs, I do not believe there is any cause to require a palming test; how would you conceal your own arms, after all?
As you say, the rules do not provide for this situation, so the only guidance we have is "they are immediately recognizable unless covered with clothing". You may call it a logical fallacy if you wish, but in terms of rules that's all we've got, so I'll choose to interpret that as "you can hide obvious cyberlimbs under clothing if you want/need to".
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I disagree that this is a case of inverse error, Top Dog. Obvious cyberlimbs "may" be bulkier than normal limbs, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they automatically stand out, either. Case in point, the limbs cannot be customized (in terms of stats) beyond the frame they are fitted to.
As such, unless there is a large discrepancy between the characters body, strength, and agility attributes and those of the limbs, I do not believe there is any cause to require a palming test; how would you conceal your own arms, after all?
As you say, the rules do not provide for this situation, so the only guidance we have is "they are immediately recognizable unless covered with clothing". You may call it a logical fallacy if you wish, but in terms of rules that's all we've got, so I'll choose to interpret that as "you can hide obvious cyberlimbs under clothing if you want/need to".
But the rules do provide for the situation. The Cyberlimbs rules even spell out the difference - synthetic cyberlimbs get a -8 concealabilty. That's a pretty big hint as to what you're supposed to be rolling. The vague part is the bonuses you might get from hiding them with clothing. And since the rules don't say that clothes hide them - it being a logical fallacy means it's not a rule - the Conceiling Gear rules are, in fact, all we've got.
It's also the ruling that makes sense - obvious cyberams look different from real arms. They have angles in weird places and joints that look and work differently. You can try to hide them, but a skilled observer should be able to at least get a chance to spot them.
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*shrugs*
Like I said, that's just how I would roll with it as a GM; after all, how do you roll Palming to, well, hide your palms...
I just do it for simplicity's sake, to be honest; any situation where NPCs are wary of chromedomes will very likely have decent rating MAD and cyberware scanners, so concealing cyberarms, obvious or not, in such a setting would be nigh-impossible in any case.
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It really should be disguise instead of palming for cyberlimbs, and then it all makes sense perfectly. Clothing hides a regular cyberlimb, at not bonus. Covering up a synthetic provides the bonus, allowing an average person to roll 10 dice defaulting on hiding a synthetic limb. Whereas they only roll 2 dice on a regular one. With only a bit of practice concealing it, they go to 4 dice easily, which passes average people not paying attention to it in detail.
And I would argue that there is no logical fallacy either. Part of the logic used is in the fact that covering them is, in fact, an act of hiding them. That doesn't make it automatically successful, though.
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Disguise for Cyberlimbs does sound good.
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I disagree that this is a case of inverse error, Top Dog. Obvious cyberlimbs "may" be bulkier than normal limbs, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they automatically stand out, either. Case in point, the limbs cannot be customized (in terms of stats) beyond the frame they are fitted to.
What, precisely, do you think "obvious" means? ;)
I would assume the name itself tells you most everything. Synthetic cyberarms are mostly just...arms! They're made of chrome and can be either totally disguised as non-ware or, if you want, are clearly chrome when examined up close, but look like regular ol' limbs from even middling distances.
Obvious cyberlimb are OBVIOUS. You see the silhouette of this guy, you're already thinking about how garish those big dumb chrome arms are. Maybe they're jut big and bulky. Maybe they bend in the wrong place (for better efficiency, of course). Maybe they're misshapen in order to fit in all that customization. Or maybe they're just super blinged out and covered in LEDs, I dunno. The point is, obvious cyberlimbs stand OUT. They're obvious! Unless you actively take care to hide them, people are going to know even at just a glance that you're packing something weird and/or serious there.
Now, I'm sure the immediate question is for what NUMBER this oh my god no who cares. It doesn't have to be connected to numbers. Obvious cyberlimbs mean that people KNOW you've gone out of your way to get something serious connected to that joint of yours - it's something to work into the narrative. Some people might find it garish and vain. If you're trying to talk your way through a joint, maybe the guy in question is going to be a little more suspicious about Miss Murderarms. Sir Elven Apostraphename with the synthetic limbs won't have too many troubles negotiating with the shaman; Dame Orky Murderarms, on the other hand, might find that same shaman giving her a harder time because of how flashy and show off-y said Murderarms are.
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ProfessorCirno Our definition of obvious obviously differ.
When I think of obvious cyberarms, I think of Adam Jensen from Deus Ex: Human Revolution. His arms are quite obviously cybernetic replacements when examined up close, but cover them with clothing and they'd be fairly innocuous. I do not see the term obvious as necessarily referring to something that stand out, specifically because according to the rules they can be covered with clothing without any difficulty what so ever; presumably, since I don't have to pay customization costs for armor or clothing if I decide to use cyberlimbs, my regular armor and clothing work just fine and I can easily cover my obviously cybernetic arms and be on my merry way without standing out like a Mr .Murderarms, as you so eloquently put it.
Different viewpoint is all. No need to get all up in arms (heh) about it...
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It really should be disguise instead of palming for cyberlimbs, and then it all makes sense perfectly. Clothing hides a regular cyberlimb, at not bonus. Covering up a synthetic provides the bonus, allowing an average person to roll 10 dice defaulting on hiding a synthetic limb. Whereas they only roll 2 dice on a regular one. With only a bit of practice concealing it, they go to 4 dice easily, which passes average people not paying attention to it in detail.
And I would argue that there is no logical fallacy either. Part of the logic used is in the fact that covering them is, in fact, an act of hiding them. That doesn't make it automatically successful, though.
Hmm, I'd say palming fits better. You're not trying to look like something else, you're trying to hide something. Rolling palming to hide your arms isn't much different as rolling it to hide a gun - you pick the right clothes, shift them properly so the item is hidden (in this case, in what people assume would be the place your arms would be) and so on. The name may not fit perfectly but the mechanics do.
Plus, there's actual rules for using cyberlimbs with palming - the +8 concealment modifier mentioned for synthetic cyberlimbs. So you can "palm" those.
At any rate, the main point is that they're not automatically hidden with clothing, which was the fallacious argument I was referring to (Obvious cyberarms are immediately recognisable if they're uncovered & they're covered -> they're automatically unrecognisable. That doesn't follow). I don't have a big problem with using disguise to hide them.
As to the definition of obvious - they're metal robot hands. They have weird joints that move differently and stick out at places human hands don't. Even if the arm can be somewhat covered with a bulky sweater the same goes for the hands. That doesn't mean you can't make them less obvious or try to hide them under clothing, but it does mean even with those precautions it's possible to spot it - much like it's possible to spot someone hiding a gun under their coat. And if you don't have the proper skills - and many street sams won't - it's far from a sure thing. If you want your street sams running around being unobvious, by all means do; that's mostly a style choice. But it's not the obvious and only true choice.
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Again, your definition of metal robot hands is obviously different from mine. Where in the text foes it state that they have weird angles or odd shapes? Nowhere, that's where...
And just to throw fuel on the fire... If you're rolling palming to Palm a cyberlimb, do you use it's augmented Agility, or your natural agility? ...
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Again, your definition of metal robot hands is obviously different from mine. Where in the text foes it state that they have weird angles or odd shapes? Nowhere, that's where...
And just to throw fuel on the fire... If you're rolling palming to Palm a cyberlimb, do you use it's augmented Agility, or your natural agility? ...
"They are often chromed or matte colors but visibly mechanical in nature."; p456. That's distinct from color and the like; they're described as specifically mechanical.
Apart from that there's depictions of cyberlimbs in the book, and while art is the least definitive of rule sources, the depiction there is not humanlike - it's usually in the rough shape of a human, but there's edges at the joints and such. Look at the Street Samurai sample character, for example. or the back cover (incidentally, SR5 has less examples of obvious cyberlimbs then I thought it would).
Interesting question about the augmented vs natural agi btw. I'd say average. You use both arms to properly hide it; one to cover it and one to, well, stay hidden.
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Again, your definition of metal robot hands is obviously different from mine. Where in the text foes it state that they have weird angles or odd shapes? Nowhere, that's where...
And just to throw fuel on the fire... If you're rolling palming to Palm a cyberlimb, do you use it's augmented Agility, or your natural agility? ...
It'd probably be more logical to use a disguise test to hide a obvious cyberlimb. Which is int+disguise. And if the corpsec gets more hits on their perception test, that is because they noticed something like the hump of the limb or the clothes folding in a weird way or something like that.
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I still don't find that argument convincing, Top Dog, but we evidently have differing views on cybernetics in the SR5 setting, which is cool.
And to the palming example; what happens if you have two arms to conceal, what do you roll then? What about one leg and one arm? Or all four limbs? What about a torso? Can you even hide a cyberskull? Why not, seeing as it's "just a shell, not an actual replacement..."
And this is why I don't bother with requiring checks. Put on clothing, and you're good until you hit a MAD scanner or cyberware scanner, in which case good luck (or hope that your hacker is being paid well enough).
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How I would generally do it: synthetic cyberarms aren't detected until you hit a scanner or someone examines you really closely, obvious cyberarms are...uh, obvious. If you want to hide an obvious cyberarm you'd use Disguise.
The point of this is to GIVE a point to synthetic cyberarms. As it stands, Martin, why would anyone not take an obvious one?
One of the things I generally focus on is cutting down on the sheer MATHS factor of things in favor of a more narrative approach. Having an obvious cyberarm doesn't give you -who cares to whatever stat. It just means people treat you differently. Heck, it might even be a positive change in some places! Having an obvious cyberarm means you're either proud of it and want to show off, you've got heavy duty hardware, or you're miserably poor.
Now, if you're Mr Big Bad Cyber Merc with near bottomed out essence, you likely do not care. People will keep a distance and will be more suspicious? You're RIGHT they will! But for the face or the B&E expert or for people who don't want to stand out, now an obvious cyberlimb is a potential risk. I might make it harder to convince a shaman or hoity toity upper crust management of something - I don't mean change the bare difficulty so much as when they have that conversation, that person will find them distasteful. A REAL bloody minded purist might refuse to speak to you. On the other hand, the scum of the streets are less likely to see you as some bootlicking corporate wageslave if you're bucking fashion and middle/upper class sensibilities. The local go gang is willing to hear your proposal, because they know you are, in some way, on their level - so long as you leave that pure blooded, knife eared sycophant behind.
So, you know. It's a trade off.
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ProfessorCirno Counter-question: why would anyone take a synthetic cyberarm? I simply choose to apply the concealment modifier of synthetic limbs for when you go up against scanners; to my mind, either limb is hard to spot for the naked eye, but synthetics are harder to spot with MAD and cyberware scanners.
You run the game the way you feel like, I'll run it like I do. Synthetic cyberarms have little place in the games I play, simply because we view cyberlimbs as a ubiquitous part of the SR5 universe, and have yet to encounter someone in Shadowrun Missions who apparently dislike them so much that it would give a negative modifier. Furthermore, the only character I play who uses cyberlimbs is also a street sam, so the social modifiers do not matter much to me in any case.
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Martin, you can, of course, run the game however you like. If I thought magic was silly and wanted Shadowrun without magic, I can totally do that. But that's a houserule - a pretty glaring one in that case. If you and your fellow players all want a game where noone notices cyberlimbs because whatever, go ahead. Just don't claim that's what the rules say or imply.
MAD-scanners are described in the rules and they don't distinguish between obvious and synthetic arms. If you want to do that, fine, houserule it. If you want a game where even obvious cyberlimbs are so human-looking as to be hard to spot, fine, but the rules specifically disagree - again, this'd be a houserule. If you want NPC's not to care about cyberlimbs - well I think most won't either, it's just out of place in some situation. Heck you can make it the New Hip Thing. Point is, the rules disagree with your interpretation, which is fine, just don't claim they don't.
Cirno, I also disagree, in principle, with your point about the narrative approach. I do agree that in most cases it's not necessary to involve the numbers and you can deal with it narratively, but it's important to have ways to deal with situations where you need to hide otherwise obvious limbs (infiltration is the classic example) and, this being a rule founded on dice, there should be some mechanical way of dealing with that.
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Top Dog
I believe I stated several times that this is how I would choose to run the game (or words to that effect), and made no intentional implication that this is what I think the rules say, one way or another.
Let's face it, the rules are somewhat ambiguous in general, and let's certainly not forget that it is entirely up to the GM to impose social modifiers for having obvious cyberware (positive and negative, both). As such, there is no clearly set precedent that implies "this is the TRUE WAY that cyberlimbs MUST be played!" in the RAW, merely suggestions for how certain game mechanics can be used by the GM. And I for one like this just fine, as it is a method that caters to individual perceptions of the setting rather than "the one twue way" which a lot of players seem to be advocating, neatly forgetting that the GM has final say whatever the hell RAW may or may not say...
You can argue semantics of how you perceive cybernetics to be until you're blue in the face for all I care (that they are obviously mechanical in nature does not prove your argument in any way, shape, or form, as modern leg prosthetics are exactly the same (i.e. some are obviously mechanical) but can EASILY be covered by a pair of $10 pants), so the only argument that remains if you want to argue RAW game mechanics are simply:
Per page 456
1. Obvious cyberlimbs can be concealed by clothes
2. Synthetic cyberlimbs are disguised as natural limbs
3. Synthetic cyberlimbs get -8 "Concealability" modifier to opposed test to spot the limb, and the observer may use the Cybernetics skill in place of Perception "for this test" if desired
Now, from the capitalized word Concealability we can infer that the rule makers are referring to concealing gear, rules for which are somewhat clearly defined on pages 419 and 420 "Concealing Gear" and pages 135 and 136 "Using Perception"
1. Spotter rolls Perception* + Intuition [Mental] modified by the items Concealability** and visual modifiers
2. Difficulty is either
2a. a set threshold ***
2b. an opposed test against concealing characters Palming skill
* Or Cybernetics (but for synthetic cyberlimbs only by RAW as per the wording of synthetic cyberlimbs (for this test)), or Palming, as per the Actively Hiding Gear paragraph on page 419
** Presumably, obvious cyberlimbs receive no modifier, as these are not mentioned in any table pertaining to Perception and/or Concealment and synthetic cyberlimbs specifically receive a -8 modifier
*** As per the Using Perception the threshold can be 1 through 4, with 2 being the most likely to apply to obvious cyberlimbs as they would be between the size of a pedestrian (threshold 2) and a contact lens (threshold 3)
There's your RAW argument all neatly summarized with rules referenced and everything. Happy now?
And with that said, I'll go right back to my SRM Season 5 game where my heavily cybered street sam (all four limbs) has yet to make a concealment test, because in my/our view of the SR5 universe cyberlimbs are common enough for 99.99% of people to not give a good god damned...
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With the "covering it with clothing" part, nobody is really mentioning at all what kind of clothing. A simple dress shirt isn't going to cut it, since it will still be a bit clunky. A hoodie would probably work, but you can't wear a hoodie everywhere without looking like a thug. Also, one thing to mention is that stuff like tattoos, colorful hair, and all that punky stuff is significantly more common in Shadowrun. It's not exactly "business casual" but it's a lot different from today. Walking down the street in the suburbs with tatoos and pink hair will make people concerned you might shank them in some places today. In Shadowrun, you just look like a random youth.
One more thing... Having cybernetic is not immediately threatening! Thinking to that whole "murderarms" thing... Even most players I've seen don't fill their arms with guns and explosives, usually just armor and agility augmentations. And while that does make them more deadly, the arm itself isn't some death machine. At base, cybernetic arms, obvious or otherwise, have average human stats, and both Synthetic and Obvious are heavily customizable.
Using an obvious one actually says the exact opposite about having "gone out of your way to get something serious". They are cheaper and not any harder to acquire than synthetics, so unless you've got visible machine guns sticking out of the damn things, you look, at worst, poor.
Regardless, I don't think any of this is actually an issue. Your Street Samurai is going to have difficulty going to a formal dinner no matter what his arms look like; everyone expects the deck jockey to be a non-conformist punk from all his time on the matrix; only the Face should be terribly concerned about having hard to conceal physical features, and no Face is ever going to bother with a cyberlimb.
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ProfessorCirno Counter-question: why would anyone take a synthetic cyberarm? I simply choose to apply the concealment modifier of synthetic limbs for when you go up against scanners; to my mind, either limb is hard to spot for the naked eye, but synthetics are harder to spot with MAD and cyberware scanners.
This actually does answer my question! Indeed, funny enough, you've boosted synthetic cyberarms way more then I think anyone else here has - I can see this working out great for a game, and gives a rather serious advantage to synthetic cyberbitties (that may or may not equate to the bonuses you can get to an obvious cyberarm filled to the brim with bonuses, which is exactly what you want!) Heck, this might be better then my solution.
Cirno, I also disagree, in principle, with your point about the narrative approach. I do agree that in most cases it's not necessary to involve the numbers and you can deal with it narratively, but it's important to have ways to deal with situations where you need to hide otherwise obvious limbs (infiltration is the classic example) and, this being a rule founded on dice, there should be some mechanical way of dealing with that.
There is. Like I said, you would use Disguise to hide an obvious cyberarm by my reckoning. I meant more that any potential "consequences" would be more narrative. Now, this would eventually translate to dice - in the troll example I use below, it meant the elf could give advice to the others but the gang leader in question simply wouldn't accept anything he said, so he turned to leadership for the others (giving them an AR power point presentation as they walked in, of course!), while I lowered the threshold for the troll boxer PC. He had an easier time convincing the gang leader to a mutually beneficial arrangement to get them to focus more on a specific corp in their turf, but any of the other non-elf characters could've jumped in and done it instead - it just might've been a bit harder for them. But the starting point was narrative - the troll's bigotry, and what actual arguments the PCs used. I tend to play it a bit fast and loose with thresholds depending on how stuff is described and what sort of game I'm trying to encourage.
One more thing... Having cybernetic is not immediately threatening! Thinking to that whole "murderarms" thing... Even most players I've seen don't fill their arms with guns and explosives, usually just armor and agility augmentations. And while that does make them more deadly, the arm itself isn't some death machine. At base, cybernetic arms, obvious or otherwise, have average human stats, and both Synthetic and Obvious are heavily customizable.
Using an obvious one actually says the exact opposite about having "gone out of your way to get something serious". They are cheaper and not any harder to acquire than synthetics, so unless you've got visible machine guns sticking out of the damn things, you look, at worst, poor.
Right, but that's generally my point. If you take Obvious Cyberlimbs, you're either dangerous, a fanatic, or one of the poors. All three likely shine a poor light on you depending on what you're doing.
Regardless, I don't think any of this is actually an issue. Your Street Samurai is going to have difficulty going to a formal dinner no matter what his arms look like; everyone expects the deck jockey to be a non-conformist punk from all his time on the matrix; only the Face should be terribly concerned about having hard to conceal physical features, and no Face is ever going to bother with a cyberlimb.[/color]
Ah, I believe in the school of thought that the GM should try to challenge characters outside of their niches, though obviously far less then challenging them as a full team. To give the example: Going into the Ork Underground, then a little bit deeper, to parley with a rather infamous Troll gang leader. A particularly racist Troll that is entirely uninterested in what the elven face has to say...but is far more willing to listen to the troll boxer (who doesn't have a lot in the way of talking skills, but has enough for this to turn the tables).
I'm rather adamant on this with players - I want characters that at the very least can dabble in other areas. If you have Charisma 1 and no talking skills, don't assume the Face will always be able to jump in on your behalf. If you're a sammy, some Hardware can go a long way. In 9/10 cases the Face can handle talking to people. That last case though...
~*~
Mind you, all this is diving rather fast and hard into House Rules (though I'm of the opinion that this game sorta needs those by default!). By STRICT RAW, it's...well, it ain't said. Obvious cyberlimbs have to be covered in clothing, synthetic ones are easier to "hide." However you interpret that is by individual game, I reckon.
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ProfessorCirno Counter-question: why would anyone take a synthetic cyberarm? I simply choose to apply the concealment modifier of synthetic limbs for when you go up against scanners; to my mind, either limb is hard to spot for the naked eye, but synthetics are harder to spot with MAD and cyberware scanners.
This actually does answer my question! Indeed, funny enough, you've boosted synthetic cyberarms way more then I think anyone else here has - I can see this working out great for a game, and gives a rather serious advantage to synthetic cyberbitties (that may or may not equate to the bonuses you can get to an obvious cyberarm filled to the brim with bonuses, which is exactly what you want!) Heck, this might be better then my solution.
Hehe, I read that as cybertitties, and was like... "Huh?"
But yeah; my view of the Shadowrun world is that cybernetic replacements is par for the course. I've always envisioned the setting as fairly far down the path of transhumanism, and obvious cybernetics would be the first step on that path. Synthetic and more "natural" replacements would indeed be higher end and more specialized, hence the vastly increased difficulty in detecting them at the cost of function (more concealability vs higher cost and less capacity). This fits my world view pretty neatly.
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ProfessorCirno Counter-question: why would anyone take a synthetic cyberarm? I simply choose to apply the concealment modifier of synthetic limbs for when you go up against scanners; to my mind, either limb is hard to spot for the naked eye, but synthetics are harder to spot with MAD and cyberware scanners.
This actually does answer my question! Indeed, funny enough, you've boosted synthetic cyberarms way more then I think anyone else here has - I can see this working out great for a game, and gives a rather serious advantage to synthetic cyberbitties (that may or may not equate to the bonuses you can get to an obvious cyberarm filled to the brim with bonuses, which is exactly what you want!) Heck, this might be better then my solution.
Hehe, I read that as cybertitties, and was like... "Huh?"
You're looking for this thread, mate:
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=13687.0
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8)
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Hahaha, that's horrible... Need bleach.
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I never understood the way Shadowrun deals with synthetic vs. obvious, as the concealability modifier does not at all warrant the drawbacks, especially since it doesn't apply to touch. Apparently its 2075 and they still haven't figured out how to make synthetic skin feel real, even though we can do that passably already.
I can understand being more expensive. Synthetic skin comes at a premium. I can understand if it has less capacity. You need to shape them like a normal sized arm and the skin takes up space. But halved capacity on top of an increase in price? Completely not worth it for an aesthetic difference.
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I think you fail to understand why people will pay so much more for a Mac than a windows machine. Or why they will shell out $1,200 for a handbag with some fancy name on it. The desire to fit in is huge, though hard to quantify in a game mechanic. While implants might be more common in the 6th world, they are still not considered appropriate for some social settings, and in other situations it's considered polite to at least maintain the illusion of normalcy.
It comes down to how your table plays, though I do think the game is intended to include social prejudice(against Trolls, for example), and I think for most tables a Face certainly should spring for the synthetic arm, while the Orc sammie can happily sport two heavily modified obvious.
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I think you fail to understand why people will pay so much more for a Mac than a windows machine. Or why they will shell out $1,200 for a handbag with some fancy name on it. The desire to fit in is huge, though hard to quantify in a game mechanic. While implants might be more common in the 6th world, they are still not considered appropriate for some social settings, and in other situations it's considered polite to at least maintain the illusion of normalcy.
It comes down to how your table plays, though I do think the game is intended to include social prejudice(against Trolls, for example), and I think for most tables a Face certainly should spring for the synthetic arm, while the Orc sammie can happily sport two heavily modified obvious.
People pay more for a Mac and shell out 1200 for a handbag because they believe wholeheartedly that those are superior products to the alternative. It has nothing to do with fitting in. That analogy does not work for synthetic cyberlimbs, since we have mechanical game numbers that spell out, clear as day, that synthetic limbs are inferior to obvious ones. They hold less and cost more.
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Synthetic limbs should cost less essence, that's evident, at least for me :)
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I think you fail to understand why people will pay so much more for a Mac than a windows machine. Or why they will shell out $1,200 for a handbag with some fancy name on it. The desire to fit in is huge, though hard to quantify in a game mechanic. While implants might be more common in the 6th world, they are still not considered appropriate for some social settings, and in other situations it's considered polite to at least maintain the illusion of normalcy.
It comes down to how your table plays, though I do think the game is intended to include social prejudice(against Trolls, for example), and I think for most tables a Face certainly should spring for the synthetic arm, while the Orc sammie can happily sport two heavily modified obvious.
People pay more for a Mac and shell out 1200 for a handbag because they believe wholeheartedly that those are superior products to the alternative. It has nothing to do with fitting in. That analogy does not work for synthetic cyberlimbs, since we have mechanical game numbers that spell out, clear as day, that synthetic limbs are inferior to obvious ones. They hold less and cost more.
Not to help fuel the Mac vs. PC debate, but I think it's a good analogy to this issue. Macs have software and hardware that is in essence similar to what a PC has, but has limited functionality in some areas. One thing that Macs have in abundance is a certain "cool" factor, along with everything that comes with said factor. Thus, Macs are similar to the synthetic cyberlimbs.
PCs are more technically minded, as they allow their users to do more with hardware and software configuration, but they lack that coolness and there's a certain stigma that comes from being a PC guy in a Mac environment. Many Mac users see PC users as nerds. Many PC users see Mac users as sheep. Ultimately, the technical flexibility of an obvious cyberarm, along with the stigma that comes with it is similar to that of a PC.
So I'd say that his analogy is sufficient for explanation.
As far as the overall debate goes, I think the synthetic arms are definitely the better option for some things, and it's up to the GM of each table to enforce the stigma that comes from obvious cyberlimbs. If a GM wants to houserule things to be a little laxer, it might behoove said GM to also make synthetic cyberlimbs hold more capacity and/or cost less nuyen.
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I think you fail to understand why people will pay so much more for a Mac than a windows machine. Or why they will shell out $1,200 for a handbag with some fancy name on it. The desire to fit in is huge, though hard to quantify in a game mechanic. While implants might be more common in the 6th world, they are still not considered appropriate for some social settings, and in other situations it's considered polite to at least maintain the illusion of normalcy.
It comes down to how your table plays, though I do think the game is intended to include social prejudice(against Trolls, for example), and I think for most tables a Face certainly should spring for the synthetic arm, while the Orc sammie can happily sport two heavily modified obvious.
People pay more for a Mac and shell out 1200 for a handbag because they believe wholeheartedly that those are superior products to the alternative. It has nothing to do with fitting in. That analogy does not work for synthetic cyberlimbs, since we have mechanical game numbers that spell out, clear as day, that synthetic limbs are inferior to obvious ones. They hold less and cost more.
I disagree. You are talking about traits that are easily quantifiable, there are no rules for trends or consumer appeal or even just fitting in. You also have to consider the engineering of the limb. In an obvious limb you have more room to place pivot points, more room for larger hydrolics, etc, while in a synthetic limb it has to conform to the shape of a normal limb, so your pivot points, etc, have to be closer to the structure, AND they have to be engineered to move like a normal limb(like muscles beneath skin instead of pistons), rather than the more efficient pistons and such. That's why they cost more and have less capacity.
I guess a better analogy would be a desktop machine vs a laptop. Desktops have more capacity for upgrades, while lap tops are more sleek and are a transportable. Both have similar capabilities regarding basic function. I'm not a computer guy, so maybe this analogy will break down too, I don't really know if prices are comparable, but I think you get the point.
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I never understood the way Shadowrun deals with synthetic vs. obvious, as the concealability modifier does not at all warrant the drawbacks, especially since it doesn't apply to touch. Apparently its 2075 and they still haven't figured out how to make synthetic skin feel real, even though we can do that passably already.
For most sane people, the drawbacks are quite small. It's more expensive, sure, but that's certainly worth having an arm that looks human instead of some metal thing.
Capacity doesn't factor into it for most people, because most people don't need it. Normal people don't build guns or cyberdecks or scanners into their arms. From an in-world perspective, then, the drawbacks make perfect sense. The human-like skin is more costly then a simple paint job, and making everything fit inside a human-sized arm (minus skin) leaves less room for other things. Since capacity is a nonfactor for most people, it doesn't affect price.
From a gameplay balance perspective, I agree - obvious cyberlimbs do have a lot of benefit over synthetic ones. But then, that sort of fits, too - as a runner, it's easy to give up that extra bit of normalcy for that extra bit of edge on the job. Which is, incidentally, why I would agree with the lower essence cost.
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If the big advantage to synthetic limbs is supposed to be a lack of stigma, that should be mentioned in the description of the item, but it's not. In fact, where is all this supposed cyberlimb stigma? I've never seen that come up at all, and other than the 'upper-crust society and purist crowd' mentioned under obvious cyberlimbs, I see no indication that it would actually be an issue. Cyberlimbs aren't even listed in the social modifiers table. So at best, this sounds like a purely fluff/flavor text thing, and giving players mechanical penalties purely for flavor reasons is silly. Even negative qualities have an upside.
Synthetic cyberlimbs only mention a concealability modifier, which makes it sound like the advantage is supposed to be for hiding the fact you have cyberlimbs. However, it completely fails at accomplishing that. If I'm trying to hide my cyberlimbs, well then I have three priorities there, in order of importance: A: That it passes MAD and Cyberware scanners, B: That it passes a pat down. C: That it isn't spotted at a glance. Synthetic Cyberlimbs only do anything against C, and you can do the same with obvious cyberlimbs by wearing concealing clothes.
In any situation where it being known you're cybered would actually be bad, your synthetic limbs are basically guaranteed to be spotted. Even in the most security relaxed upper-crust event around, you better hope that cyberlimb hating corp exec your face is meeting doesn't shake his hand, because then he's immediately found out.
If it's going to have lower capacity and higher cost, it should cost less essence as well. That seems like a fair trade to me. If not, then the stealth nature of it should be a lot more effective. It should have a higher threshold against scanners, and it needs synthetic skin that feels real, bleeds, sweats and so on, like the Mimic modification for drones listed in Arsenal (Which means this technology does exist in shadowrun, but nobody ever thought to apply it to cyberlimbs for some bizarre reason)
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I agree with your assesment about the synthetic arms needing a lower Essence cost, but the idea of not seeing the stigma is entirely based upon the way your GM is handling the game's environment. Personally, if I'm going to have my players go to a place where obvious cyber is frowned upon, they suffer a social penalty based on the amount of obvious cyber they have. If they make efforts to hide the cyber in some way (disguise kit, for example) then they can offset the penalty in some fashion.
But again, the idea of the stigma is completely, 100% entirely based on how your GM runs the board and therefore changes like this should be houseruled to make the accomodations to the GM's game style.
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From a social perspective, the point isn't that no one can tell you have a cyberlimb, the point is that you are making an effort to make it look normal and blend in. In 2075 cyber is everywhere, but the average Joe on the street will have synthetic because obvious chrome is predominantly associated with Shadowrunners, gangers, Urban Brawlers, and other antisocial, criminal types.
The media is largely responsible. Action trids are as close as the average citizen ever gets to the shadows, and the cliche of the chomed-up street sam or gilette has become ingrained into the popular psyche in 2070.
In our own timeline, there are lots of things that used to be common but have become unpopular with the general population because of their association with a particular criminal or counterculture subgroup. Black trench coats, Hitler mustaches, leather pants, bandannas (especially red or blue), double-breasted suits, thick black glasses frames; all have taken on specific associations over time that have caused them to be less popular in general. This in turn feeds back and makes them even more popular with the groups who do wear them and posers/fans/groupies because it becomes "theirs".
Basically, obvious chrome identifies you as a person who values the functionality of their cyber more than they value fitting into society. It doesn't mean you are a criminal, you could be a soldier, a bodyguard, a cop, or even a sports star. That's why an across-the-board social modifier doesn't exist.
The Street Sam infiltrating an Urban Brawl league event wouldn't raise any eyebrows with his 5.9 essence worth of gleaming chrome, and might even get a social benefit, but he'd better have a pretty good story to tell if he wants to attend a fancy ball, and either way he stands out, and people are going to remember him.
The face's synthetic arm wouldn't raise any eyebrows at even the fanciest parties because she is making a socially acceptable attempt to hide it. It doesn't stand out as unusual and the socially acceptable response is to ignore it if you even notice it.
To put it another way, a synthetic limb is a prosthetic first and a toolbox/weapon second. An obvious limb reverses that priority in a way that is very visible.
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Obvious is great for some cultures, and less so for others. It all depends on the type of view you have, as well as the type of message you want to project about yourself.
Some Transhumanists would be happy with obvious cybernetics, and trying to promote a positive view of them.
Trying, mind you.
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There's also the issue of WHY people get such limbs in the first place.
Cybernetic prosthetics are expensive, too expensive to get just because they are fashionable, and are only cost effective for a very select few types of jobs. Dock workers, for instance, while they might appreciate the ability to lift heavier loads, such a worker would not likely be willing to sink in half a year's to a year's wages into a limb or two. Even the wealthy elite would not likely replace a perfectly good arm with a prosthetic as a sign of wealth, nor as part of a fashion trend. Datajacks are one thing, they serve a very function, are not invasive or obvious or offend too many sensibilities, and are treated no differently than getting your ears pieced today. But that acceptance of invasive tech only goes so far, a datajack is one thing, and entire leg is another.. Even eyes would be more common among the working class, as they are more affordable, and I can come up with an endless list of jobs where they would be advantageous.
But arms and legs?
It seems to me, that aside from military and corp/sec applications, about the only real reason to get a cyberlimb, would be to replace a lost one. Just like today in the real world. Nobody goes and cuts off an arm to get a plastic prosthetic. I know, I know, SR cyberlimbs are a lot more advanced than today's prosthetics.
So who gets these things, and why?
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one word argent 8)!
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WHY would people pay so much to replace a perfectly good arm or leg?
Simple: Put an I-Pod in it, make some trid hero have one in an awesome movie franchise, start an aggressive marketing campaign.
The people WILL buy awesome stuff. Not everyone, but there will be a sub-culture immediately.
Why are there 18 year old kids around today that sink thousands of dollars into tuned cars? I know some of those folks and they save every penny just to get some mods for their allready perfectly working ride.
I like to be my Shadowrun more on the transhumanistic side, its gotta be that way to balance out the dragons and magic (which are, some crazy how, allways quite accepted by the general public).
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But this is more than just buying a shiny new trendy car or iWhatever, this is major surgery, the cutting off of part of your body. That's a bit more involved, a bit more traumatic, and no matter how common place datajacks are there will still be hesitation to cu off something like an arm. Certainly less in 2070 than today, but it would still be there...
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It's also a generally more dangerous world, and trauma-medicine technology has not advanced nearly as fast or as far as trauma-causing technology. Between gangs, crime, corp fights, shadowrunners and the like, the percentage of even ordinary people who have sustained some sort of serious injury is probably much higher than it is today. That doesn't even take into account active and retired people who actually have dangerous jobs like runners, mercenaries, cops and soldiers.
Cybertech is so good and so common, a doctor is more likely to cut off and replace a part of your body that is seriously damaged than to try and save it and risk infection, gangrene and the like. That also means more people are going to survive injuries that might kill them today. Corp employees may just be faceless cogs, but they do get some benefits, and those include medical care and basic cyberlimbs if they need them. Cybereyes are the standard fix for anything less than 20/20 vision, to the point where corrective lenses are unusual outside of the Awakened subcultures.
In the face of cyber being so common already, it is much easier to imagine people also choosing to get it when they don't need it as well.
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Well image you get into the crossfire of a gang shooting and catch some punks 12Gauge explosive shell in the knee. You can wait weeks for a cloned vat grown natural replacement or you you get cybernetic replacement and walk a few days later. I honestly can see the appeal.
Plus drilling a hole in you skull so you can subject you vulnerable sqishy brain to all sorts of possible harm sounds just as crazy to me, especially when trodes have almost zero drawbacks.
Also its about contrast in my vision of the Shadowrun universe:
If there are dragons, insect spirits and unknown eldritch horrors lurking in the awakened 6th world, there damn well will be bioengeneered, cybernetic, badass commandos to defend (trans)humankind.
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But this is more than just buying a shiny new trendy car or iWhatever, this is major surgery, the cutting off of part of your body. That's a bit more involved, a bit more traumatic, and no matter how common place datajacks are there will still be hesitation to cu off something like an arm. Certainly less in 2070 than today, but it would still be there...
As a replacement, they're good.
But voluntary? I have folks react the same way they did to Argent when they found out he had his arms replaced.
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I think Anarkitty and The Other Bandit summed up my point. People don't get these things because they are cool, they are mostly replacements for injuries. Dermal Plating, Bone Lacing, Wired Reflexes 1, Spurs, all of these I can see gangers and the like getting to help them survive. But what about the really expensive implants? Suprathyroid, fully Customized and Enhanced limbs, Adrenal pumps 2, Synaptic Boosters, etc? Where do people get the money for something like that? SR is a dystopia, with most people struggling just to survive, where are gangers getting 140,000Y for Wired Reflexes 2? Or 95,000 for an arm? 10,000 or 20,000 I can see for an upgrade to help you survive in the Barens. No, customized and enhanced cuberamrs are not going to be very common, even in the 6th world. Replacement prosthetics would of course reflect the social station of the user, obvious for a ganger and synthetic for a sarariman: they both want to fit in with their 'tribe'.
Shadowrunners are of course an exception. They can make a ton of money, but often get stuck in the cycle of continually upgrading for the next high paying job, only to use that pay out to upgrade again and again, hoping for that one last big retirement level pay out. While the typical sarariman won't care about lower capacity in his arm, he will likely be willing to pay a bit more for a synthetic one. So will a shadowrun team's face, as there is still enough room in there for some increased AGL, a smuggling compartment or a cybergun. The Orc sammie who took an auto cannon shot to save the rest of the team and lost a leg, he's not going to care about looking normal and is going to want that cybergun grenade launcher.
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If we're not talking about people who are going to get a large amount of 'ware, (usually not awakened or virtua-kinetic, either) the importance of essence costs is much lower - and the amount of product that can be returned to market much higher.
Cyberlimb enhancements can be taken post-operation, rather than requiring the initial investment of customisation. WR2 seems unlikely in poverty stricken areas, but used WR1? 30k in debt and any street scum can be on their way to being muscled by the Yakuza for money and services before they slip on payments and have it repossessed / sold to someone else.
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Exactly! WR1 is within reach of a ganger, but not rating 2, and neither is a top of the line cyberarm.
Though I disagree about the Essence thing... there is a mechanic built into the system that reflects how people react negatively to low Essence characters, it's part of the calculation for Social Limits. People are going to react differently to you depending on how much 'ware you have, because that matters even in 2072. And some people are going to be aware of that, and that is going to influence their decision to get an arm or not, most people probably. So there is likely to be at least some small social stigma attached to major implants. Plenty enough reason to justify paying a little more for a synthetic arm.
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Though I disagree about the Essence thing... there is a mechanic built into the system that reflects how people react negatively to low Essence characters, it's part of the calculation for Social Limits.
The start of my post addressed the type of characters I was referring to. Ignoring that; keep in mind that the difference between 6 essence and rounded up 0.01 essence for the purposes of Social Limit amounts to a +1 or +2. It's not a major impact either way, unless you're already abysmally low in Willpower / Charisma, and facial heavy social modifiers.
Also; I think if Ghost in the Shell can manage to scrape together enough social pressure to force people into last ditch efforts to find decently paying work, then SR can probably get similar results with people who are healthy and whole of body.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ghost_in_the_Shell:_S.A.C._2nd_GIG_episodes#Episodes (episode 6 for reference)
[spoiler]They learn that the man, named Kontan Kanji, had accepted a mysterious job in exchange for the promise of a new cyber body, and had been put to work descaling the walls of a subterranean structure in the Uchikon 7 district, which was submerged in the last war ... Togusa discovers that the building is actually an old nuclear power plant[/spoiler]
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C2, W3, Ess 2.01~5 characters have a social limit of 4, and even if they got the skill at 6 they'd have a dicepool of 8. Checking http://www.tinyurl.com/acctables, that's <1/11 chance to roll more hits than the limit, so less than 9%. They wouldn't care.
A C6, W3, Ess 0.01 character would be at a social limit of 6, with a skill on 6 we're at 1/15 chance, so 6.66% to get capped by the limit. Again, wouldn't care.
So honestly, the Essence effect on your social limit is likely neglectable, unless you're walking around with an Essence of <=1, a Willpower of 1 and a Charisma of 2, yet a social skill of 6. At that point, 8 dice vs a limit of 3 means >25% chance to get capped by the limit. And if you're a W1/C2/Ess1 character with a social skill of 6, you're doing something wrong.
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I disagree with the "people wouldn't get cyber because "it's cool""; I think the transhumanist angle is pretty well played up in Shadowrun, and to me the setting certainly invites civilians taking bodysculpting way, way beyond what we're seeing today.
But, that's just my view of the setting, so it really doesn't make any sense to me trying to argue how someone views the setting, that's your business.
Michael also makes a great point; unless the GM decides that you're talking to a crowd of purists who look down on or despise the use of cyberware, most of the time you're not going to be facing any issues from the Social Limit even with low Essence if that's your character's thing.
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I'm just saying there is a mechanic to account for social problems with implants, not that it's a limiting one, so to me that indicates there will be some social pressure to avoid some obvious implants.
Another consideration, and we are starting to slide away from game mechanic considerations into setting-theory, is touch. Being touched, that is. While even obvious cyber-arms would need a good sense of touch in the fingers to function, what about the rest of the arm? A synthetic arm, with it's skin like covering, could have tactile sensors all along its length, so you could feel the caress of that beautiful lady(or man or Troll or ghoul or whatever) rubbing up against you. But an obvious? It's hard to cover gears and pistons and actuators with tactile sensors. From a game mechanic this is a non-issue clearly. But from inside the game, it warrants consideration. Humans are deeply social creatures(Ignoring the disproportionate number of 'loner' Shadowrunners), and touch is one of the main ways we reassure ourselves. Losing some of that sense of touch could lead to a sense of disconnection, isolation. I'm just saying this bears consideration when talking about the difference between Obvious and Synthetic limbs. I've listed a half dozen reasons to choose one over the other, all in reply to earlier posts asking why synthetic cost more. I think this is an interesting discussion.
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MadBear, your argument presumes you consider obvious cyberlimbs to actually have actuators and gears and pistons; I don't. I'm not saying you can't tell an obvious limb from a synthetic, I just think 2072 medical and scientific tech has progressed far enough to where they can make things like that internal. To me, an obvious cyberlimb looks very much like an ordinary limb, except that it's obviously chrome. But in terms of size, I don't see them as very different.
I'll keep using my example of Adam Jensen from Deus Ex: Human Revolution. Full cybernetic arm replacements, but when wearing a coat they don't stand out in any way except perhaps the hands if one was to look closely. So to me, cyberlimbs are closer to real limbs in terms of look and feel (except they are metal instead of flesh), as opposed to more cyber/steampunk looking limbs with, as you describe them, obvious gears, pistons, and/or actuators.
And on the note of sensitivity; there are no game rules for loss of tactile sensation with cyberlimbs, so I don't see why there would be a thematic one. If the doctors or manufacturers can create an artificial limb that is equal to or better than your own, why wouldn't tactile senses be one of the things they'd put in there. Unlike a pain editor, which numbs your senses and results in a -4 modifier for tactile perception tests, no such modifier exists for cyberlimbs.
To me, setting does make and break this discussion, because it is up to the GM to decide how much a cybered character should be penalized in social settings. I have yet to run into such a situation at my table, and my character has all four extremities replaced with cybernetics, so we obviously feel cybernetics are more commonplace and acceptable in Shadowrun 2075 than some others.
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I am going off how limbs are portrayed in the core book's illustrations. In my mind at least, SR cyberlimbs are motivated by carbon nano-tube fiber muscles that closely mirror our own. Once you add in Enhancements like Armor, though, I think they become more than just chrome shiny copies of flesh limbs.
In your mind then, what is the explanation for why Synthetic limbs have lower Capacity than Obvious, if they are similarly sized and shaped?
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I think Cyberarms can vary between quite obvious
http://s36.photobucket.com/user/Shiny_coin/media/Sammie.jpg.html
to not so obvious
http://th03.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2013/050/d/4/shadowrun___stabilizer_by_steampoweredmikej-d5vkw9m.jpg
or
http://th00.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2013/346/2/4/shadowrun___shock_hazard_by_steampoweredmikej-d6xqlyy.jpg
Both Arms belong into the Obvious Category (ImO)
Whereas this one
http://th03.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/i/2013/219/0/3/shadowrun___fists_by_steampoweredmikej-d6h55mr.jpg
is a synthetic one (ImO)
HokaHey
Medicineman
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Obvious cyberlimbs never get explained in much more detail than being "obvious". Ergo, it's natural everyone has their own opinion on how they should look, even the artists who make SR art themselves :)
Personally, I think they just look like normal limbs in silhouette, but obviously (heh) mechanical somehow. Think John Kennox from Almost Human, or even the automail from Fullmetal Alchemist. Anything more substantial than that would most likely be a bulk-upgraded limb, and prove somewhat impractical.
what is the explanation for why Synthetic limbs have lower Capacity than Obvious, if they are similarly sized and shaped?
Game balance :P
They might as well slap a "YMMV" right after the "Obvious".
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what is the explanation for why Synthetic limbs have lower Capacity than Obvious, if they are similarly sized and shaped?
Game balance :P
They might as well slap a "YMMV" right after the "Obvious".
This.
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Exactly! WR1 is within reach of a ganger, but not rating 2, and neither is a top of the line cyberarm.
Really depends on the situation; the ganger could have saved a high-leveled Yak or Mafioso's life, and been rewarded with the ware, perhaps with the expectation that additional services would be owed by the ganger. Similarly, said ganger could have been moonlighting for a crime boss/Johnson/whatever, done an impressive job, but got messed up in the process; the ware could be repayment for services rendered, with the understanding a debt was still owed by the ganger. Let's not forget that gangs also have their own revenue streams (hijacking shipments, prostitution, drugs, extortion, etc.) and depending on the ganger's place in the hierarchy, they could have better access. Shadowrunners aren't the only ones who can work the systems in place to get their hands on what might otherwise be beyond their reach.
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Exactly! WR1 is within reach of a ganger, but not rating 2, and neither is a top of the line cyberarm.
Though I disagree about the Essence thing... there is a mechanic built into the system that reflects how people react negatively to low Essence characters, it's part of the calculation for Social Limits. People are going to react differently to you depending on how much 'ware you have, because that matters even in 2072. And some people are going to be aware of that, and that is going to influence their decision to get an arm or not, most people probably. So there is likely to be at least some small social stigma attached to major implants. Plenty enough reason to justify paying a little more for a synthetic arm.
Essence tying into social limit doesnt have much to do with social stigma. Instead, its a result from a sort of reversed uncanny valley effect, the idea that humans are instinctively put off by things that look uncannily like humans but arent (robots and such). Social stigma comes on top of that, depending on the crowd, in the form of negatie dice mods (or positive, ynever know).
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Exactly! WR1 is within reach of a ganger, but not rating 2, and neither is a top of the line cyberarm.
Though I disagree about the Essence thing... there is a mechanic built into the system that reflects how people react negatively to low Essence characters, it's part of the calculation for Social Limits. People are going to react differently to you depending on how much 'ware you have, because that matters even in 2072. And some people are going to be aware of that, and that is going to influence their decision to get an arm or not, most people probably. So there is likely to be at least some small social stigma attached to major implants. Plenty enough reason to justify paying a little more for a synthetic arm.
Essence tying into social limit doesnt have much to do with social stigma. Instead, its a result from a sort of reversed uncanny valley effect, the idea that humans are instinctively put off by things that look uncannily like humans but arent (robots and such). Social stigma comes on top of that, depending on the crowd, in the form of negatie dice mods (or positive, ynever know).
I've always read the essence tying into limit part as an internal thing. As you replace yourself with mechanical parts, you become less human; your link towards the rest of the human race diminishes, you become colder and less empathetic. It's a central theme in a lot of cyberpunk.
After all, the lower social limit also applies in cases where the opposing party could never even get a visual hint that you're wearing cybernetics (wired reflexes that are off, or an audio only link). It's your behavior that's affected, not the other party's response to it.
Which, I guess, is why synthetic and obvious limbs have the same essence cost; you're still replacing your limb with a piece of machinery (although an argument could be made that, by choosing the one that looks more human, you're less removed from being human).
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No matter how human a cyberlimb might look, to the piece of your soul that left with your flesh and blood arm it is the same as grafting a small backhoe shovel to your shoulder, or just leaving it off entirely. Hence the same essence cost.
I agree that the Essence affecting your Social limit is a change in you, not the person you're talking to. When you lose a part of your soul, it makes you less human, and less able to understand and interact with other humans. It is very clearly stated in multiple editions that characters with very low Essence start to feel "detached" from their humanity and others, and even before they cross the line into cyber-zombie territory they risk disassociative disorders and cyber-psychosis. Sometimes there are rules for this, sometimes there aren't, but it's part of the setting.
That is why the effect on your Social limit is the same whether your essence loss is from internal cyber, bio, or chrome limbs, and whether you are talking to a mage, a sammie or an AI. It represents a disassociation with your own self.
Obvious cyberlimbs never get explained in much more detail than being "obvious". Ergo, it's natural everyone has their own opinion on how they should look, even the artists who make SR art themselves :)
Personally, I think they just look like normal limbs in silhouette, but obviously (heh) mechanical somehow. Think John Kennox from Almost Human, or even the automail from Fullmetal Alchemist. Anything more substantial than that would most likely be a bulk-upgraded limb, and prove somewhat impractical.
A synthetic cyberlimb has a set appearance. It looks like an arm. Probably like your arm, unless you bought it used, or got a sun tan since you picked it up.
An obvious limb doesn't have a set appearance. It is "obvious", which can range anywhere from a cheap model with skin-tone plastic shell and visible bolts and interface ports, a hyper-realistic arm that happens to be polished chrome, a steel and titanium frame with myomer wire bundles and pistons visible between the ceramic armor plates, or even a detailed work of art or engineering that doesn't even resemble the limb it is replacing. It can look like anything, as long as that appearance can be justified relative to the stats in the same.
If you have an arm that is AGI 10, it could be a smooth, precision-machined piece that looks like an impossibly lithe, chrome version of your real arm; or it could be a triple-jointed marvel of engineering that can move and bend in ways no metahuman limb ever could; or a hand-crafted work of art that twists and flows like a tentacle with a gleaming, multicolored surface of independently moving ceramic scales. As far as the actual effect in the game, all of these arms have the same cost and the same effectiveness.
It isn't about saying, "This is what obvious cyberlimbs look like." It is about saying, "I have this idea of what my cyberlimb looks like, should I consider that Obvious or Synthetic?"
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That was wonderfully put Anarkitty
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So if I imagine arms that are visibly slender and lithe (and dpnt use more that 8 capacity in extras), but are painted black, are they obvious or synthetic?
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Probably obvious. Unless your character is black. The question you should answer is, 'if you shake hands with someone, is it going to be obvious that your hand/arm is cybernetic?' Or 'if you're in your swimsuit, is it obvious' etc. For the answer to be 'no', the cyberlimb should look just like you do. If it's 'no', then there you go.
Or use the 10' rule - can a person standing 10' away tell that the uncovered limb is artificial? However you describe it looking, the answer would have to be 'yes' for it to be an obvious cyberlimb.
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But still no concealability modifier in clothing, which would be conceivable in this case. Now this could be handled by a bonus to a disguise test to hide under clothing, or some math inversely relating concealability and used capacity.
It's kind of all moot though because any professional geardo is going to use a scanner on everyone he meets.
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That's up to the player and the GM, as to how blatant they want the 'ware to be. If you want it to be a huge blatantly-mechanical piece that can't even be put through a normal sleeve, that's up to you, but in regards to the rules, it's still 'just' an obvious cyberlimb.
And any professional 'geardo' that tries to use a scanner on any of my characters had better be holding them at gunpoint. Even then, his life isn't guaranteed safe, because some of them aren't going to stand for it no matter what.
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Would you even notice if someone used a cyberware scanner on you considering it has a 15 meter range? I wouldn't think it gives any indication. I also assume that everyone is subject to all kinds of sensors, without their knowledge, in the more reputable parts of civilization.
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(Note that the table has a few errors in it - the more items you have, the LOWER the threshold should be, not higher. Anyhow.)
Remember that 15m is the maximum range; also, it would/should take both a clear line to the target and at least a couple of Turns for the gizmo to do its job. And it is a gizmo, make no mistake; at the very least, think of the ultrasound motion detectors from Aliens. It is, or should be, clear that someone is pointing something at you. Plus, anyone who has something that can perceive millimeter-wave radar (i.e. another one, or even just a radar detector of some sort) is gonna notice that sort of thing scanning around. Sensors don't operate in a void; there's always counterdetection and concealment to consider.
But yeah, I think a reasonably-aware shadowrunner would have a decent chance to notice someone using a scanner on them. It is, after all, a max of 15m, and the closer you are, the more sure you are of actually scanning the right target.
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A couple of problems with your points. First, the book does not give a threshold "of a couple of turns"; it's pretty instant. Second, there's no whirring devices here or Star Trek scanning beams that I've read about, unless it's in an older sourcebook. So it'd realistically be a regular perception (or electronic warfare) test with a reasonably high threshold to detect what you were being scanned with, even if it was a guard with a handheld scanner, much less an inconspicuous sensor array on a building or in someone's helmet/ballistic mask.
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First, if you're right next to the guy, sure, 'pretty instant' I'll grant you. The book doesn't give every single last detail, though, so don't stay slavishly devoted to 'what the book says'. You still have to be sure you're targeting the right person if there's a crowd, and there is a question of range, detail, etc. No, you don't have to play it that way.
Second, I didn't mention whirring devices or scanning beams, but if it emits energy, it can be detected. A standard perception test to notice the guy pointing the gizmo at you, sure. An e-war test to detect directed-energy scanning, sure. A reasonably high threshold? Oh, hell no, not when the scanner is sending out energy. Passive is tough/impossible to detect, but to know that you're being scanned is a one-hit threshold. Perhaps to deduce where it's coming from, yeah, that might be tougher if the scanner is concealed in some way - or it might be idiot-simple, such as if you're approaching a guard post and a guy with a helmet/face-mask is looking your way, or if you just passed through a doorway.
The book isn't the be-all and end-all; use a big dose of your own experience when judging this sort of thing.
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Note that the table has a few errors in it - the more items you have, the LOWER the threshold should be, not higher. Anyhow
Line that up with the relevant fluff, and you should notice that SR5 gets right. Millimetre Wave scanners do have issues with lots of items and packed electronics on screen - both in SR and modern day. You can either research this yourself, read Runner's Companion, or think back to the last time airport security asked you to remove your laptop or other large electronic device from it's bag for scanning.
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Eh...but these are people you are playing with and it'd be kinda de-immersing imo to just throw that little roadblock out based on "experience" that amounts to an assumption, when current technology, such as airport body scanners, while considerably bulkier than SR tech, have no such effects.
The way I would GM is based on context. If it was a person with a handheld, yeah you'll know, and you can roll E-war skill or an appropriate knowledge skill to figure out what with; but in the case of inconspicuous scanners, very unlikely, depending on the situation. You aren't going to have mysterious sensor-energy detection abilities by default.
Just my opinion.
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Line that up with the relevant fluff, and you should notice that SR5 gets right. Millimetre Wave scanners do have issues with lots of items and packed electronics on screen - both in SR and modern day. You can either research this yourself, read Runner's Companion, or think back to the last time airport security asked you to remove your laptop or other large electronic device from it's bag for scanning.
Ooo, so it gets confused by multiple returns - definitely becomes useless against someone who does have multiple implants. Fun fun.