[JohnQ]

Questions about the Mage Manipulation type spells such as Mob Control and Mob Mind (I may have the exact names incorrect, I'm not looking at the books). These spells take control of the of enemies, either physically or mentally, in an area to boot. Why would I bother trying to use another mental manipulation which merely gives a -1 die per hit when I can simply control their mind or physical body for at least 7 Combat Turns while they try to shake off the affects (unless of course they were unaffected to begin with)? Giving them an order to drop their weapons, shoot your buddy, lay down so I can tie you up, etc. Perhaps if the caster gives the person under the spell an order totally contrary to current thought process they recieve a bonus to break out and an automatic check on the spot? Also, since the spell is a complex action, after its been cast does the spellcaster have to wait until the next IP before using a Simple Action (provided they used the first one already) to actually give an order?   

This makes me think of a new joke, "So a Mage walks into a bar...."   

Am I missing something? I'll be the first to admit my knowledge is limited. I'm reading through the books, mainly focusing on the Magician sections since that is the character type I chose to play.

[FastJack]

Mob Control (SR4A, p. 210) takes control of the target's physical bodies, but their mind remains intact and they suffer a penalty to the dice pool modifier of the target's Willpower for any ordered commands. The caster must spend a Simple Action to control the targets, otherwise they act normally. I'd take that as the a Simple Action every round, because you're the puppeteer. If you don't spend that action, they revert to normal behavior. Also, each individual target rolls their own resistance, instead of a group resistance check, so you may only get a few people in the target area.

Mob Mind (SR4A, p. 210) takes control of the target's mind and body, so there is no resistance to your orders. Again, a Simple Action is required, and I'd say it's every round again since your directing everything they do.

Now, the fun part is the drain on these bad boys. Assuming you're casting a Force 7 (by your notes), Mob Control's drain would 6S and Mob Mind would be 8S. That's a lot to resist.

[JohnQ]

Oh I thought I saw that they only get the chance to resist every 7? I should not post unless I have the books in front of me. I was really not thinking of a specific Force when I typed it out. I have been pondering those two spells this week, that's all. So trying to throw them out there from memory was probably not the best plan. I suppose a Force 6 is what I was really thinking.

So a dice pool modifier to ordered commands for Mob Control. I know they each get to resist, but the Ganger types probably are 2's and 3's to resist for the most part I'd think. Perhaps this simulates the ease in which a Mage can overcome them.

[FastJack]

Oops... my bad, yes, they resist every X rounds where X is the Force of the spell, but Mob Control does say that when not directly controlled, the victim may act as normal.

[Chaemera]

Yup, as previously mentioned, they resist every Force rounds with a Complex action on either spell.

All actions with Mob Control take a -Willpower penalty since you only control their body, not their mind.

As FastJack noted, you have to spend one simple action every Combat Round that you want to have control. You spend another simple action to give the group (or an individual) commands, which they perform on their action.

Mob Mind, no simple action to maintain (they're your precious little zombies), no -Willpower to their actions, sample method of giving orders.

Other than the 2 extra points of Drain for Control Thoughts / Mob Mind, I see it as being partially a flavor choice. Consider all the movies you've ever seen where the evil wizard causes a person's body to kill their loved ones even as the protagonist struggles against the control. Think Jedi mind control. Now, consider the case where the person suddenly wakes up to realize what they've done, even though they were powerless to resist. The first is Mob Control, the later is Mob Mind.

Also, since the person acts normal with Control Actions / Mob Control when you don't directly control them, you can (ritually) cast the spell, maintain it, then, after they've convinced their close friends and allies that they're perfectly normal and okay to let into the secure bunker. . . You assert control, pull their LMG and gun down the defenders from within.

With Control Thoughts, you might not know your target well enough to avoid tipping off their friends that something is wrong. With Control Actions, cast ritually, they never know what hit them. Barring, of course, all the obvious anti-magic defenses.

This brings up an interesting question. . . what are the limits to sustaining a spell cast via ritual spellcasting? But, that's for a different thread.

[FastJack]

Except when cast by ritual, the spell requires LOS to the target. Would that mean if they went out of LOS, you'd lose control?

[Chaemera]

Well, you do still have the option of astrally assensing the target (and don't get me started on the options presented in Street Magic about "links"). As long as the spirit used to astrally assense the target stayed in astral LOS, would you be able to sustain?

No one in my group seems to lend much credit to Ritual Spellcasting, so I haven't had to pay too much attention to the rules.

And there are plenty of applications where the advantage of letting the target maintain control of himself that don't require ritual spellcasting that I think the point still applies.

[JohnQ]

So I can see where there are some limitations, you can't order them and make it stick. I missed that in my first reading. Simple Action each Combat Turn required, so if you distract the Mage/Shaman then maybe...

Not too worried about the Ritual Casting either, still a fledgling player to the SR4a rules.

[FastJack]

I've never really seen Ritual Spellcasting as a PC tool except in very rare cases. Mostly, I've used it as an NPC tool/threat to the well-being of the PCs.

[JohnQ]

 

[Chaemera]

Ritual Spellcasting is a powerful tool for anyone who is patient. Okay, yeah, I guess that makes it more a GM's tool than a player's tool. But, hey, hired to commit some arson against a warehouse? Send in a bound fire elemental to act as spotter for a Ritual cast fireball spell, with follow-up orders to manifest & burn EVERYTHING. You never show up on a camera, there's very little forensic evidence, no fuss, no muss.

If you want to argue about the logic of an indirect combat spell via ritual spellcasting, use [Element] Aura (Fire, Street Magic, pg. 173) on the night clerk and watch his confusion as he is suddenly enveloped in a corona of fire, burning everything he touches. Of course, if your GM is a rules lawyer and points to the bit about it only being for melee attacks and not touching paper, well go with Ignite (SR4A, pg. 210).

[JohnQ]

Yes. I can see some applications for that after I've logged some time making some runs and have some karma to burn. ty!