Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: blackangel on <02-19-13/0153:53>

Title: Line of Sight
Post by: blackangel on <02-19-13/0153:53>
The topic on radar is a bit too heavy so I try something else to understand SR mechanics.

With this said and writen :
"Line of Sight (LOS): The spell can target anything the caster can physically see or assense, regardless of the distance (see p. 173, SR4). The caster may not target anything that is completely behind cover or otherwise obscured. Since the caster only needs to see part of the target, a Perception Test may be necessary to see if the caster can spot enough of the target to cast. Visibility modifiers apply to the Spellcasting Test. Note that full body armor does not “conceal” the person within and prevent them from being targeted."

Can a mage blindfire someone ? Spotting someone behind a wall doesn't bother if you want to shoot at him and try to pass threw his cover.
But, is it the same for magic ?
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: All4BigGuns on <02-19-13/0156:29>
No. If they are not in view, they can't be targeted with a Direct spell, however, you can still hit them with an Indirect area spell by targeting a spot you can see that is near where they are (assuming of course that you know they are there).
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: mtfeeney = Baron on <02-19-13/0330:36>
No. If they are not in view, they can't be targeted with a Direct spell, however, you can still hit them with an Indirect area spell by targeting a spot you can see that is near where they are (assuming of course that you know they are there).

Why couldn't you use a direct area spell by targeting a spot that you can see that is near where they are?
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: Reiper on <02-19-13/0333:12>
No. If they are not in view, they can't be targeted with a Direct spell, however, you can still hit them with an Indirect area spell by targeting a spot you can see that is near where they are (assuming of course that you know they are there).

Why couldn't you use a direct area spell by targeting a spot that you can see that is near where they are?

Because you can't see them.

Spells are already borderline overpowered, being able to go through barriers would make it a bit too much. An AOE would be just as effective, just a bit more drain (thats why if I'd always have one direct and one aoe at the least).
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: mtfeeney = Baron on <02-19-13/0350:52>
No. If they are not in view, they can't be targeted with a Direct spell, however, you can still hit them with an Indirect area spell by targeting a spot you can see that is near where they are (assuming of course that you know they are there).

Why couldn't you use a direct area spell by targeting a spot that you can see that is near where they are?

Because you can't see them.

Spells are already borderline overpowered, being able to go through barriers would make it a bit too much. An AOE would be just as effective, just a bit more drain (thats why if I'd always have one direct and one aoe at the least).
That makes no sense.  I said an area spell, the same as his example.  The only difference is direct instead of indirect(such as Powerball vs Blast).
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: All4BigGuns on <02-19-13/0354:13>
No. If they are not in view, they can't be targeted with a Direct spell, however, you can still hit them with an Indirect area spell by targeting a spot you can see that is near where they are (assuming of course that you know they are there).

Why couldn't you use a direct area spell by targeting a spot that you can see that is near where they are?

Because you can't see them.

Spells are already borderline overpowered, being able to go through barriers would make it a bit too much. An AOE would be just as effective, just a bit more drain (thats why if I'd always have one direct and one aoe at the least).
That makes no sense.  I said an area spell, the same as his example.  The only difference is direct instead of indirect(such as Powerball vs Blast).

With Direct, you don't see it, you don't affect it. Period.
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: RHat on <02-19-13/0358:39>
No. If they are not in view, they can't be targeted with a Direct spell, however, you can still hit them with an Indirect area spell by targeting a spot you can see that is near where they are (assuming of course that you know they are there).

Why couldn't you use a direct area spell by targeting a spot that you can see that is near where they are?

Because you can't see them.

Spells are already borderline overpowered, being able to go through barriers would make it a bit too much. An AOE would be just as effective, just a bit more drain (thats why if I'd always have one direct and one aoe at the least).
That makes no sense.  I said an area spell, the same as his example.  The only difference is direct instead of indirect(such as Powerball vs Blast).

With Direct, you don't see it, you don't affect it. Period.

Indeed.  If you're having trouble conceptualizing it, this is how it goes:

   - Direct spells come into existence at the point you designate, which is any point you can see.  Points of origin and effect are the same.
   - Indirect spells travel toward a thing you can see, originating from you.  The points of origin and effect are different.
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: mtfeeney = Baron on <02-19-13/0400:07>
I don't understand.  You would have to see the spot you were targeting, sure, that's the same for indirect/direct... but both are area spells that center on that spot.  The spell I'm describing would be Powerball, by the way.  So you have to see the spot you want to hit, but it'd still hit the guy that you can't see behind the cover the same as an indirect spell.
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: Glyph on <02-19-13/0406:34>
Area-effect direct combat spells don't send out an area of effect - they are transmitted to targets within an area of effect, if you can see them.  The sidebars on the manipulation of magic in the magic section go into more detail.  Being able to affect targets that are not visible is one of the few advantages of indirect spells, which create an actual physical manifestation of energy in the "real" world.
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: mtfeeney = Baron on <02-19-13/0407:43>
Excellent answer, I'll go find that sidebar.  Thanks, Glyph.
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: mtfeeney = Baron on <02-19-13/0412:03>
I found where it says that in the SR4A and Street Magic, but both say it unilaterally affects all spells, not just direct or indirect.

Quote
Area Eff ect: As described on p. 173, SR4, area spells aff ect
all valid targets within an area of eff ect. Area spells cannot aff ect
individuals who cannot be seen, even if they are within the area
designated for the eff ect. Magicians also may not selectively ignore
valid targets within the area of eff ect, including themselves.
Th e base area of eff ect can be centered anywhere within line of
sight and has a radius equal to the spell’s Force in meters.
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: WellsIDidIt on <02-19-13/0512:03>
The part that makes indirect spells able to affect unseen targets is under the indirect combat spells in the main book (it's in the Combat Spells section).
Quote
Indirect Combat spells may affect other targets that the caster cannot see if they are caught within the spell’s area of effect.
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: mtfeeney = Baron on <02-19-13/0655:56>
Excellent, clear and concise.  Thanks for clearing that up.
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: Mirikon on <02-19-13/0753:16>
Yeah, being able to hit things you can't see is one of the things that really lets spells like Fireball shine. Just need LOS to the target point, and FWOOSH! "Oh look, there's someone leaning out of that helicopter with a machine gun." Fireball inside the helicopter. "Well, the person with the machine gun is NOT happy with you. He's even less happy with the pilot who is giving off this really smoky smell, and is leaning forward on the controls like he's dead. Oh, that's because he is. Now for the happy fun crash!"

Remember, you don't have to kill the vehicle to stop it, just kill the guy driving it.
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: mtfeeney = Baron on <02-19-13/0827:56>
Remember, you don't have to kill the vehicle to stop it, just kill the guy driving it.
It may be time for me to have a signature...  and this is it.
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: Mirikon on <02-19-13/1622:20>
*bows* You're welcome.
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <02-20-13/1423:57>
Yeah, but you usually don't get that opportunity, especially with a vehicle.  Blind-Fire, shooting through an armored vehicle, there are all sorts of penalties.  It's even worse if you're using magic of some sort.  An AV round into the radiator grille, and so into the engine block, will typically kill the car more easily - or better yet, put the axe to its source of mobility, whether that's a car's much-less-armored tires, the rotors on a helo, prop plane, or boat, or the jet engine on a plane or impeller-driven boat.  Almost all of those are vulnerable, and/or less well-armored than the pilot/passenger compartment.  Afterwards, you can dispense the people inside at your leisure.

You don't have to kill the vehicle to stop it, you just have to remove its method of propulsion
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: Prodigy on <02-20-13/1625:06>
What you say is true, Wyrm. Totally depends on the vehicle though. A tank? Engine block. A car? Driver. Just basing this on RL sniper tactics.

In general though, you are correct. In large vehicles it is typically easier to hit the engine than a person.
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: JoeNapalm on <02-20-13/1634:29>

Typically, people are squishier than engine blocks.

Just sayin'.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: All4BigGuns on <02-20-13/1636:05>
What you say is true, Wyrm. Totally depends on the vehicle though. A tank? Engine block. A car? Driver. Just basing this on RL sniper tactics.

In general though, you are correct. In large vehicles it is typically easier to hit the engine than a person.

In game, not really. It's a Called Shot at an unarmored area, and thus the only way to do it is taking the penalty equal to the Armor of the vehicle.
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: Prodigy on <02-20-13/1702:14>

Typically, people are squishier than engine blocks.

Just sayin'.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

True that.

What you say is true, Wyrm. Totally depends on the vehicle though. A tank? Engine block. A car? Driver. Just basing this on RL sniper tactics.

In general though, you are correct. In large vehicles it is typically easier to hit the engine than a person.

In game, not really. It's a Called Shot at an unarmored area, and thus the only way to do it is taking the penalty
equal to the Armor of the vehicle.

Game mechanics-wise, that's true.
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: Mournclaw on <02-20-13/1720:46>
So can a single-target indirect spell go through barriers? I mean if it's a lump of whatever moving instead of an effect at that point...?
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: Falconer on <02-20-13/1821:02>
Physical indirect spells blow up early when they hit barriers or mirrors.  They originate at the caster and fly to the targets...  (the reason you can't use them with mage sight fiberoptic systems)

Against physical-plane mana barriers... they either fizzle and don't go through or just punch through for normal effect.  Normal effect being add the barriers rating to resistance dice like other spells going normally through a mana barrier.


That's all under 'indirect combat spells' end of the first paragraph.
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: Mournclaw on <02-20-13/2015:14>
Okay, got it. So in the end, I'll still have to go for manipulation spells for "casting" through barriers, as in the fling spell... Maybe to go along with a spell made to produce small lumps of metal. Would have to sustain it, though, so... Well, what wouldn't one do for style points. I mean, if magic existed RL, that's so0 what I would do.

Back to the line of sight issue; If you really want to blast away to behind the cover, just take the elemental grenade from WAR and call it a day. It's just like firing a grenade launcher but with your spellcasting skill.
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: Falconer on <02-20-13/2224:54>
There's really little to no reason to use the grenade spell when you have an actual fireball spell.  Congrats... here's fireball only now with scatter!


As far as manipulations go... the closest thing to a damage spell is 'ignite' which needs to be sustained for multiple combat turns before it takes effect.   You can use levitate to move things... (I've used that to good effect... lifted a 200-400kg steel i-beam into a helicopters rotors so it couldn't take off.)     But even there it's really hard... the I-beam is OR2 or 3... 2 more threshold for weight... so you need 4 successes to just hold it up let alone move it....

But in general... they've tried to restrict damage producting instant spell effects to combat spells.

Indirect combat spells were intentionally moved out of manipulations to combat in fact.... even now one of the criticisms is that manipulation is probably the single best spell category on it's own.
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: WellsIDidIt on <02-21-13/0056:55>
Quote
In game, not really. It's a Called Shot at an unarmored area, and thus the only way to do it is taking the penalty equal to the Armor of the vehicle.

That's one possible way to do it, but there is always the other Call Shot effect that could come into play: "The gamemaster may also allow other specific effects for called shots if he chooses. For example, you could use called shots to knock an opponent over a ledge, shoot out a tire, temporarily blind an opponent, etc."

Disabling movement, forcing a crash test, etc. are all things possible through this rule. You don't have to destroy the vehicle (which dealing damage by bypassing armor would be doing) to disable a function of it.
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: Blue_Lion on <02-21-13/1348:38>
Line of sight in shadow run is a litte difrent from how the term is used today. Today when it is used as range it usaly refers to the point at witch the two points abilty to precive eachother is blocked by some sort of barrier that stops the medium from reaching it. In Line of Sight radios that usaly means a large terane feature or cuve of the earth, for vision it usaly means something you cant see threw such as a wall or fog. There is even a mathmatical formila for determing.

Now in shadow run magic it is a bit murker as some things like use of mirrors and fibor optics whould allow it when a barrer is between point A and B. This repater affect allowed is working outside of normal direct line of sight so magic seams to be limited by the abilty to precive the target threw a direct means.
 
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: Mournclaw on <02-21-13/1350:16>
There's really little to no reason to use the grenade spell when you have an actual fireball spell.  Congrats... here's fireball only now with scatter!


Oh, but I can think of several scenarios where grenade spell would be more useful. As it says in the description, normal gravity takes place for the grenade Meaning you can do indirect fire with it over high walls, for example. Also, if you're high on ini-passes (be it through a spell or 'ware) you can shoot multiple of them and explode them on just the right time with the simple action. It could act as a good deterrent for the melee guys not to come charging if there's a grenade out in the open between you and him. You could hand the ball for the expert lobber on your team (it is a physical object, after all) and get some greatly accurate shots made, or maybe use levitate for it, or magic fingers... The uses are multiple to the extent of almost endless! Buy your own grenade spell now!
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <02-21-13/1440:24>
Line of sight in shadow run is a litte difrent from how the term is used today. Today when it is used as range it usaly refers to the point at witch the two points abilty to precive eachother is blocked by some sort of barrier that stops the medium from reaching it. In Line of Sight radios that usaly means a large terane feature or cuve of the earth, for vision it usaly means something you cant see threw such as a wall or fog. There is even a mathmatical formila for determing.

Now in shadow run magic it is a bit murker as some things like use of mirrors and fibor optics whould allow it when a barrer is between point A and B. This repater affect allowed is working outside of normal direct line of sight so magic seams to be limited by the abilty to precive the target threw a direct means.

... not sure where you're getting your information, Blue Lion.  'Line of Sight' is about where or how it's blocked?  Sorry, but no - LOS has to do with actual visibility, not impinged visibility.
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: JoeNapalm on <02-21-13/1448:37>

Yeah, I'm afraid if you're saying a term means something different in 2070 than it does today, you should probably provide some corroboration.

Line-of-Sight generally means an unobstructed, relatively flat line between two points.

Not sure why you believe that would change.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: Blue_Lion on <02-21-13/1459:59>
Your cell phone is Line of Sight radio.
Line of sight between two points exist untell something that stops it exists be it the curve of the earth or physical barrier.

Line of sight is not always vision. It is a unblocked path for a medium between two points. That is the real world Line of Sight. My first job in the military was as a LOS radio technician. So when I look at LOS I look for what whould block it, as that is what deremines it as a range. For nonral sight that whould be a wall or fog, but the same wall or fog has no affect on a LOS radio. Line of sight is a unobstructive path when used as a limit is the point at witch the path is blocked.

For a radio a mountain can block the LOS a radio relay can go around the montian but that does not mean that radio A and B can see each other with LOS just that they can see radio C and it tells them what the other is saying.
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <02-21-13/1603:02>
Wow, it's hard to read your stuff.

Basically, though, what you're saying is that Line of Sight ... is the line that goes between an observer and an object of observation.  Whether that's eye and item, transmitter and receiver (which, technically, would be line of transmission, but let's get past that), pointer and target, or mage and the soon-to-be-deceased, it remains the same.

Your initial post appeared to indicate that line of sight was defined by what was blocking it, as compared to whether or not it was clear.  (Line-of-sight is, by general definition, clear - though you can state that in the case of a mobile target or viewer, objects intermittently interposing themselves makes for a broken line-of-sight.  Or, also, that if you can only see part of them, that it's not a clear line-of-sight, though it is still line-of-sight.)

Interesting point - a mage needs LOS on the individual's aura, not on the individual themselves.  As auras extend somewhat from the body, if you're too close to the corner, a good mage can still nail your sorry ass with a powerbolt.
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: JoeNapalm on <02-21-13/1607:58>

Shh! One of my characters has Astral Hazing!

Are you trying to get him ganked?!

 :P

(On the other hand, no worries...he has Astral Hazing!)

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: Blue_Lion on <02-22-13/1903:33>
Wow, it's hard to read your stuff.

Basically, though, what you're saying is that Line of Sight ... is the line that goes between an observer and an object of observation.  Whether that's eye and item, transmitter and receiver (which, technically, would be line of transmission, but let's get past that), pointer and target, or mage and the soon-to-be-deceased, it remains the same.

Your initial post appeared to indicate that line of sight was defined by what was blocking it, as compared to whether or not it was clear.  (Line-of-sight is, by general definition, clear - though you can state that in the case of a mobile target or viewer, objects intermittently interposing themselves makes for a broken line-of-sight.  Or, also, that if you can only see part of them, that it's not a clear line-of-sight, though it is still line-of-sight.)

Interesting point - a mage needs LOS on the individual's aura, not on the individual themselves.  As auras extend somewhat from the body, if you're too close to the corner, a good mage can still nail your sorry ass with a powerbolt.
Sorry if I was unclear but as range limit LOS is limited by (range limit) when it is unable to made or blocked so that is how it is a range limit. I was refering to it as a range limit but yes it is a direct path for the medium in used.
For shadow run mages I think that whould implying beeing able to precive the aura. I think the line of sight is more about direct preception (not guess or fed perception) on the targets accuarte location at the time of casting.
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: The Wyrm Ouroboros on <02-22-13/1913:58>
That ... was never in question.  ????
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: Falconer on <02-22-13/1920:03>
Hmm if I'm a mage and I see anything with astral hazing... I'm going to gank it with a direct combat spell on general principle... stunbolt it again just to be sure and send it beyond overflow damage.  (background counts only work on sustained spells by the strict rules).

Better yet... collect it... hack it's arms and legs off... as well as it's tongue, eyes, and ears...  put it in a backpack... and bill it as a portable BGC for taking into space!   In any case... very little pleasant should ever come to these things.


Hmm... better yet... mages everywhere should put up a collective bounty on any and all items with astral hazing.
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: JoeNapalm on <02-23-13/0036:50>
(background counts only work on sustained spells by the strict rules).

Oh, the Strict Rules.  :o

Not the Strict Rules! Where does one find these "Strict Rules"?

Here's the just plain old regular rules:
Quote
RC 116, Astral Hazing: "This astral haze affects all attempts to cast magic on, at, or in the vicinity of the character."

SM 118, Background Count and Magic: "Whether positive or negative, in game terms the background count reduces the characters Magic Attribute by its absolute value...A background count-modified Magic attribute counts for all uses of Magic, including dice pools and limitations imposed on the Force of spells or spirits."

Now run along and stop trying to derail the nice people's thread.


-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: Falconer on <02-23-13/0058:54>
JoeNapalm... once again for a rules lawyer you're a very bad one...  relying on fluff instead of the operative sections of the rules which tell you exactly how to interact a spell when it enters a background count.   The hazing fluff doesn't matter because it's a general statement... it has no rules behind it...  BGC's do hinder all magic cast within their bounds... but i'm not talking about casting within the BGC i'm talking about casting outside it and sending a spell at someone inside it.   The rules it invokes come immediately afterward... it creates a BGC... and this is supposed to be a NEGATIVE quality... not a positive quality.

The latter reduction to a mages magical strength only happens if the mage is within the area of the BGC.

The spells in SR always originate at the caster and travel to the target.   This has been true in all editions of the game since the beginning.   This means the mana is gathered and shaped at the caster then 'channeled' to the target.   Now read the actual RULES for how BGC's interact with spells... the only spells which have their force reduced by the BGC are sustained spells... that's a few paragrphs down in street magic.  But you didn't read that far... instead you take the opportunity to snipe and call me out on things you haven't read in depth.  "...., active foci, sustained spells, and quickened/anchored spells are similarly affected.   Reduce their force by the absolute value of the BGC."    No mention of *INSTANT* spells of which combat spells are the prime example of.


You can only cite me fluff, after fluff, after fluff... written by people who didn't bother to read their own rules.   And you wonder why I have a low opinion of the current crop of fluff authors.  And it's no wonder you have such a low opinion of rules lawyers... because you're such a bad one.
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: JoeNapalm on <02-23-13/0202:44>

You can see that a list of sustained Magic that is "similarly affected" just means that they're also affected?

 I mean, not an expert on the rules, but I'm pretty sure that "all uses of Magic" encompasses Instant spells.

That "fluff" rule is separated from your "strict rule" by a single paragraph. I'm pretty sure you're not the arbiter of what is "strict" and what is "fluff"...but even if you were, I don't care. I really can't stress that enough. I don't care what you think.

Speaking of which, how about we apply another "Strict Rule"...?

You see, since I don't care, you can't make me angry. So how about you stop making a fool of yourself trying to do so, and I'll go back to trying to pretend you're not there?


-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate
Title: Re: Line of Sight
Post by: blackangel on <02-23-13/0218:55>
Now, I know how I'm going to handle LOS

Thank you for all your answers  :)

As I'm not sure we are going to have more interesting things upon this subject, I lock this post.

Thanks
BA