Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: halflingmage on <04-19-15/1456:08>
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Just an open question for debate. Skillwires and skilljacks became very expesnive in terms of nuyen in 5th edition. Are there builds were this makes sense? I rarely if ever see them used in the current edition, dose anyone out there still use them and if so where do you find they come in handy?
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This has been asked before, and as you said, in 5E the costs for them has gone through the roof.
In SR1-3, I found them nice for Rigger to be able to pilot anything while only keeping 1-2 actual trained piloting type skills.
In SR5 it could still have that use, but it just costs an a$$load more Ca$h.
So a Resources-A + Skills-C-E build might make use of them.
Basically if your big on Cash & also want high Attr, & Race, then using them to balance your low Skills might have some merrit.
The problem is the way dice pools & attr dice are handled in 5E makes this method not as effective as SR1-3 where you didn't get Attr dice.
To make it worthwhile in SR5 means you are going to want a pretty high level of Skill Wires which means a LOT of cash.
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If you're using the German gear list, then yes. Skilljacks cost Rating * 1000¥.
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A skilljack/skillwires combo is 0.2 Essense and 40,000 Nuyen per level. So rating: 3 is 120,000 Nuyen right there, and that's before buying actual activesofts, at 15,000 Nuyen each for rating: 3 ones. Not only have the prices gone way up, but the overall value has gone down, because skills go up to 12 now. And chipped skills will tend to be secondary/peripheral ones, on top of that.
They have such a high opportunity cost, compared to more useful augmentations, that they only make sense if you have a lot of extra money. Those situations where the rest of your gear costs a bit over one Priority level, but leaves a lot of leftover Nuyen at the next Priority level. If that is the case, then you can afford to spend a large amount of cash to basically get a few secondary skills or languages. Otherwise, it just isn't worth it.
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The other thing you can do is pass the buck on getting skillsofts, onto Contacts via the Favor Rating Table. Which likely won't ever be worth more than 50k. (current max is 6 @ 30k)
That's equivalent to a rating 4 favour, which would be a mini run on it's own. (corporate requisition requiring the signature of a middle manager)
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If you're using the German gear list, then yes. Skilljacks cost Rating * 1000¥.
Has anyone checked to see if cost in the english version is intended?
I agree that the price has made them less then viable. But they are so classic to the setting that I'd wish for revision.
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Has anyone checked to see if cost in the english version is intended?
I agree that the price has made them less then viable. But they are so classic to the setting that I'd wish for revision.
Skillwires are an odd thing in SR. Yes, they're classic to the setting...in the fluff. But I've seen them used so rarely in character builds that they're kinda like the P-TAC: still there only because the writers couldn't justify retconning them out, but way too expensive for what they do. Even in SR4A, when skillwires were at their cheapest, I almost never saw a character use them.
The prices in SR1 and SR2 were pretty high too: rating x 10,000 for ratings 1-3, rating x 100,000 for ratings 4-6, and rating x 1,000,000 for ratings 7-9.
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I guess one reason they could be used more in fluff is because much of the cost is in software. For corps, that's less of an issue, because they can spread out the use over multiple shifts.
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I guess one reason they could be used more in fluff is because much of the cost is in software. For corps, that's less of an issue, because they can spread out the use over multiple shifts.
Yep. As far as fluff goes, it makes some sense for a corp or a military service to issue skillwires (at least low-level ones) to its rank-and-file. Mooks get issued activesofts when they go on-duty and turn them back in when they go off-duty. It can be less than the cost of training personnel, and the skills don't leave the unit when the person does. Even bill the skillwire implant to the employee in the contract as something that gets paid off over the years (or decades) of service so you have them on the hook.
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The prices in SR1 and SR2 were pretty high too: rating x 10,000 for ratings 1-3, rating x 100,000 for ratings 4-6, and rating x 1,000,000 for ratings 7-9.
Rating 3 was basically the only thing worth taking.
For 30K you got a plug-in-play skill set which as I said above was pretty useful for characters like Riggers who needs lots of Piloting skills or for some that is low on skills & this will allow them to do a bit of everything.
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A skilljack/skillwires combo is 0.2 Essense and 40,000 Nuyen per level. So rating: 3 is 120,000 Nuyen right there, and that's before buying actual activesofts, at 15,000 Nuyen each for rating: 3 ones. Not only have the prices gone way up, but the overall value has gone down, because skills go up to 12 now. And chipped skills will tend to be secondary/peripheral ones, on top of that.
They have such a high opportunity cost, compared to more useful augmentations, that they only make sense if you have a lot of extra money. Those situations where the rest of your gear costs a bit over one Priority level, but leaves a lot of leftover Nuyen at the next Priority level. If that is the case, then you can afford to spend a large amount of cash to basically get a few secondary skills or languages. Otherwise, it just isn't worth it.
For the Jack of most Trades, master of one character concept, mechanically it's less costly to have a 6 or 7 Edge, 5's or better (with 'ware) in Agility, and/or Charisma, and/or Logic. Just grab Jack of All Trades quality and throw your first 10 to 20 Karma at a bunch of 1 skills. You can throw 12+ exploding dice at almost anything a couple times per run. And, as it turns out, those Attributes and Edge are useful for all the other stuff you do.
Getting Stats + Skillwires up to the point of being a one person shadowrun team is effectively beyond the reach of a single character. Pretty sure that is as intended.
tl;dr 6+ Edge > SR5 Skillwires.
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Straight up numbers comparison:
Augmentations
Skilljack @ 20,000¥ per rating
Skillwires @ 20,000¥ per rating
Activesoft @ 5,000¥ per rating
Knowsoft @ 2,000¥ per rating
Linguasoft @ 1,000¥ per rating
Priority Character Generation
Skill @ 1 priority point per rating (equivalent to 2,000 nuyen during character generation)
Karma Character Generation and in-game advancement
Active Skill @ (rating * 2) karma per rating
Knowledge Skill @ (rating * 1) karma per rating
Language Skill @ (rating * 1) karma per rating
The following assumes the full rating is purchased for Skilljacks, as the wireless bonus may or may not be desirable. It also assumes that no qualities like Jack Of All Trades, Master of None or its language and/or knowledge skill equivalents, have been selected.
Cost comparison for single Rating 1 skill
Active: 45,000¥ for augmentations vs 1 skill point or 2 karma
Knowledge: 42,000¥ for augmentations vs 1 skill point or 1 karma
Language: 41,000¥ for augmentations vs 1 skill point or 1 karma
Cost comparison for single Rating 2 skill
Active: 90,000¥ for augmentations vs 2 skill points or 6 karma
Knowledge: 84,000¥ for augmentations vs 2 skill points or 3 karma
Language: 82,000¥ for augmentations vs 2 skill points or 3 karma
Cost comparison for single Rating 3 skill
Active: 135,000¥ for augmentations vs 3 skill point or 12 karma
Knowledge: 126,000¥ for augmentations vs 3 skill point or 6 karma
Language: 123,000¥ for augmentations vs 3 skill point or 6 karma
Cost comparison for single Rating 4 skill
Active: 180,000¥ for augmentations vs 4 skill point or 20 karma
Knowledge: 168,000¥ for augmentations vs 4 skill point or 10 karma
Language: 164,000¥ for augmentations vs 4 skill point or 10 karma
Cost comparison for single Rating 5 skill
Active: 225,000¥ for augmentations vs 5 skill point or 30 karma
Knowledge: 210,000¥ for augmentations vs 5 skill point or 15 karma
Language: 205,000¥ for augmentations vs 5 skill point or 15 karma
Cost comparison for single Rating 6 skill
Active: 270,000¥ for augmentations vs 6 skill point or 42 karma
Knowledge: 252,000¥ for augmentations vs 6 skill point or 21 karma
Language: 246,000¥ for augmentations vs 6 skill point or 21 karma
More in-depth analysis:
It's fairly obvious that the initial investment cost is skewed way out of proportion for skillwires. That being said, depending on your reading of the Skilljack rules and whether or not one can make do with a rating 2 skilljack (which, if wirelessly enabled, arguably allows up to 4 skillsofts of rating 6 to run simultaneously), one can cut the initial investment by anywhere from 20,000¥ to 80,000¥.
Comparatively, then, the real difference between wired skills and real skills come down to cost of karma vs nuyen for the skill itself.
A Rating 6 Activesoft costs 30,000¥ which is equivalent to just 15 karma. This is 27 less Karma than the 42 Karma required to raise an active skill from Rating 0 to Rating 6 with in-game Karma, a 64.29% difference. The cost of purchasing a Rating 2 Skilljack and a Rating 6 Skillwire system (40,000¥ + 120,000¥ = 160,000¥, equivalent to 80 Karma) could be equalized by purchasing just 3 Rating 6 active skills (45 Karma vs 126 Karma, an 81 Karma difference that is the equivalent of 162,000¥).
A Rating 6 Knowsoft costs 12,000¥ which is equivalent to just 6 karma. This is 15 less Karma than the 21 Karma required to raise a knowledge skill from Rating 0 to Rating 6 with in-game Karma, a 71.43% difference. The cost of purchasing a Rating 2 Skilljack and a Rating 6 Skillwire system (40,000¥ + 120,000¥ = 160,000¥, equivalent to 80 Karma) could be equalized by purchasing 6 Rating 6 knowsofts (36 Karma vs 126 Karma, a 90 Karma difference that is the equivalent of 180,000¥).
A Rating 6 Linguasoft costs 6,000¥ which is equivalent to just 3 karma. This is 18 less Karma than the 21 Karma required to raise a knowledge skill from Rating 0 to Rating 6 with in-game Karma, an 85.71% difference. The cost of purchasing a Rating 2 Skilljack and a Rating 6 Skillwire system (40,000¥ + 120,000¥ = 160,000¥, equivalent to 80 Karma) could be equalized by purchasing just 5 Rating 6 linguasofts (15 Karma vs 105 Karma, a 90 Karma difference that is the equivalent of 180,000¥).
Conclusion:
A Rating 2 Skilljack (with wireless enabled) and a Rating 6 Skillwire system quickly becomes very cost effective compared to raising those skills with Karma. It is my opinion that using wires can be highly efficient for character generation performed with Karma (or Point Buy), whereas in priority buy it will almost never be advisable unless one picks Skills E and Resources A, and maybe not even then.
Furthermore, the fact that Skillsofts have legal availability ratings in the single digit range (2 to 8) and relatively low costs (anywhere from 1,000¥ to 30,000¥), a Rating 6 skillsoft can likely be obtained in as little as a few days, a week at most. The equivalent Rating 6 skill when learned normally will take more than 3 weeks of downtime (less if an instructor is used).
The biggest drawbacks with wires as I see it is that you cannot use Edge with wired skills, and the maximum rating of skillsofts is limited to 6.
House-rule territory:
If you could buy Rating 12 activesofts (for 60,000¥) they would in my opinion be much more attractive options compared to the 156 Karma cost (equivalent to 312,000¥) as well as months and months of time needed to learn said skill naturally. This would raise the initial investment cost significantly, but it would still take an equal amount of skills to equalize the Karma difference.
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It's fairly obvious that the initial investment cost is skewed way out of proportion for skillwires. That being said, depending on your reading of the Skilljack rules and whether or not one can make do with a rating 2 skilljack (which, if wirelessly enabled, arguably allows up to 4 skillsofts of rating 6 to run simultaneously), one can cut the initial investment by anywhere from 20,000¥ to 80,000¥.
That's not how I read it at all. The Wireless bonus for the Skilljack only boosts the total Rating limit, not the maximum Rating per skill, so a Rating 2 Skilljack with Wireless allows you to run a total Rating limit of 6, but each skill has a maximum Rating of 2 (so you could run 3 Rating-2 skills or 6 Rating-1 skills). And the Wireless bonus for Skillwires only improves the Limit for each skillsoft you're running.
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So I did some quick back-of-the-excel-sheet calculations to see when skillwires become cost-effective.
Assuming skilljack and wires of the same rating as the skills (so you can actually use a few at once), and counting only Activesofts (since they're the most useful ones for runners):
A rating 3 system hits the break-even point at 14 skills. At that point, you spend 330k for the whole system, for 165 karma's worth; an equivalent number of karma skills would set you back 168 points.
Because karma is exponentional and skilljacks are linear, rating 6 systems fare much better. At 5 skills, you spend 390k nuyen, or 195 karma's worth, for a set of skills that would set you back 210 karma.
After the breaking points, each R3 skill would save you 4.5 karma. Like you say, each R6 skills would save you 27 karma.
High-rating skillwires are a much better deal, but obviously cost a much bigger initial investment. Too much for starting characters (not to mention the 24 availability), but for a long-term campaign, the initial investment will pay off in the long run.
You do want the higher rating Skilljack though. It says the total of all skills, not the number of skills, cannot exceed Rating x2 (or x3). Plus, your limited by the Skilljack's rating per skill anyway - that's maximum rating, not total rating (which is what the x3 refers to).
Of course, there are some side notes. Skillwires allow for at least some discount when buying lower-rating skills for cheap. Knowsofts and Linguasoft, while not generally as useful, are also a lot cheaper (especially linguasofts) relative to the karma costs. But of course, no Edge is a potential pain.
I wouldn't allow R12 skillsofts myself. The fluff is clear that skillwires are a shortcut to skills - they allow you to use a skill and be good at it, but you can't improve from it and you can't be excellent at it, for that you need the real human touch. So the R6 limit seems fine to me.
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It's fairly obvious that the initial investment cost is skewed way out of proportion for skillwires. That being said, depending on your reading of the Skilljack rules and whether or not one can make do with a rating 2 skilljack (which, if wirelessly enabled, arguably allows up to 4 skillsofts of rating 6 to run simultaneously), one can cut the initial investment by anywhere from 20,000¥ to 80,000¥.
That's not how I read it at all. The Wireless bonus for the Skilljack only boosts the total Rating limit, not the maximum Rating per skill, so a Rating 2 Skilljack with Wireless allows you to run a total Rating limit of 6, but each skill has a maximum Rating of 2 (so you could run 3 Rating-2 skills or 6 Rating-1 skills). And the Wireless bonus for Skillwires only improves the Limit for each skillsoft you're running.
Hehe. Hence my caveat of "depending on your reading".
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It's fairly obvious that the initial investment cost is skewed way out of proportion for skillwires. That being said, depending on your reading of the Skilljack rules and whether or not one can make do with a rating 2 skilljack (which, if wirelessly enabled, arguably allows up to 4 skillsofts of rating 6 to run simultaneously), one can cut the initial investment by anywhere from 20,000¥ to 80,000¥.
That's not how I read it at all. The Wireless bonus for the Skilljack only boosts the total Rating limit, not the maximum Rating per skill, so a Rating 2 Skilljack with Wireless allows you to run a total Rating limit of 6, but each skill has a maximum Rating of 2 (so you could run 3 Rating-2 skills or 6 Rating-1 skills). And the Wireless bonus for Skillwires only improves the Limit for each skillsoft you're running.
Hehe. Hence my caveat of "depending on your reading".
Fair enough. I'd forgotten for a moment that I was on an Internet forum.
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I prefer cheap and ubiquitous skillwires, myself. Less for PC's, and more for verisimilitude - to keep them in line with the fluff about all of these low-paid, unskilled workers who have their skills chipped by the corporation. The whole setup doesn't make sense, even with economies of scale and "free" software, when the augmentations involved are costlier than low-end wired reflexes and similar 'ware.
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The whole setup doesn't make sense
I'd ask a few questions, before jumping to that conclusion.
How much are corporations spending to build skilljack / skillwire cyberware, relative to the sale price? (how does that price change on the black market?)
What ratings are being used in which industries?
Are skilljacks and knowledge skills enough for any given job?
Is there any reason to be firmly disbelieving the idea of skilljacks / skillwires being slaved to some kind of Rigger Control Console Host? (single instances of skillsofts and knowsofts being run on multiple wageslaves)
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In terms of corps using skillwire workers, I think the big thing they gain in flexibility. Fred is a skill wire worker. This week he is a welder, next week he is doing electronic assembly, the week after that he is doing routine maintenance on the HVAC system. And push come to shove if Phil in accounting is out with the flu Fred can dust off his tie, chip in an accounting program, and probably handle at least the scut work in the accounting department. He is not going to be able to do any of those tasks better than a true expert, and they would probably want to have the supervisor spot check him, but he can handle basic tasks in just about any job in the building. Its not saving the training expense on one skill, its the ability to have Fred do darned near any job they need, at least at a basic level.
The problem from the Shadowrunner point of view is that basic level often doesn't cut it. You don't want a guy to chip in demolitions and be "fair" at taking care of the bomb. If its an opposed skill of any type you don't want to be going with a skill of 3. After all the mantra here on the character boards is always "shadowrun is a game of specialists". Skillwires don't let you be a specialist. Its a very expensive way to be a generalist.
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When they added them to the move by wire system in 4th, I had couple character who used them.
The 5k price point per skill rating really is the problem. The base units have never been cheap but that's not really a big deal.
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I wonder if skillsofts shouldn't be adjusted to be non-linear.
Compared to natural skills, Rating 6 skillsofts are fine. They're a big investment all at once, but they're worth it. But the lower you get, the less they're worth.
If the cost was, say, Rating*Rating*1000, lower-rating skillsofts would be worth the money as well, so you can mix and match skill ratings as needed and not waste money (although that would make R6's more expensive, so maybe not exactly that).
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Skillwires are a thematic choice, not really a practical one. IMO, however, a skilljack is highly useful for a runner; they're relatively Essence-friendly, and they are So Goddamn Useful it makes a runner cry - from linguasofts to area-based knowsofts*, that is the Way To Go.
* - IMO, a datasoft such as a mapsoft takes time to access - it's like pausing to access the map on your iPhone. It may be faster than an iPhone, but you have to look through it. (I also use 'rating' Datasofts/Mapsofts, just like a hermetic mage's e-library, or the difference between a Rand-McNally map and a USGC Survey map of the same area.) Convert that information from something you have to take a few seconds to access into something you straight out KNOW, and you really have reason to cook.
"We're trapped!! How the hell are we going to get out?!?"
"We're not trapped. Go into this room. Okay, now punch through the bottom panel there. Main wet wall."
"How the hell did you know that?!?"
"Knowsoft of the building architecture. Started getting them after that clusterfuck in Caracas."
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Skillwires are a thematic choice, not really a practical one. IMO, however, a skilljack is highly useful for a runner; they're relatively Essence-friendly, and they are So Goddamn Useful it makes a runner cry - from linguasofts to area-based knowsofts*, that is the Way To Go.
* - IMO, a datasoft such as a mapsoft takes time to access - it's like pausing to access the map on your iPhone. It may be faster than an iPhone, but you have to look through it. (I also use 'rating' Datasofts/Mapsofts, just like a hermetic mage's e-library, or the difference between a Rand-McNally map and a USGC Survey map of the same area.) Convert that information from something you have to take a few seconds to access into something you straight out KNOW, and you really have reason to cook.
"We're trapped!! How the hell are we going to get out?!?"
"We're not trapped. Go into this room. Okay, now punch through the bottom panel there. Main wet wall."
"How the hell did you know that?!?"
"Knowsoft of the building architecture. Started getting them after that clusterfuck in Caracas."
That's a nice comparison. Goes, partially, for linguasofts too. You can easily translate things via commlink (you can do that now) - but it's going to take time and you're going to lose nuance. Except Knowsofts - like linguasofts - do a lot more then mere datasofts and simple translations do, since they also give you the learned skills to interpret the data and such.
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And always remember, kiddies, check with your GM as to whether or not you can get mapsofts (or architectural/area knowsofts!) of the complexes you're infiltrating. Knowing what goes where - or what SHOULD go where - is the first step to getting the hell out of Dodge City!!