Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: Lormyr on <08-24-20/1024:27>
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Ladies and gentleman, I present to you, the one, the ONLY, SRM ruiner BIIIIIG HOOOOSSSSSS!!!!
Big Hoss
Priorities:
Attributes A (24 points)
Metatype B (Fomorian, 11 points)
Skills C (20 points)
Magic D (Adept, 1 Magic)
Resources E (8,000Y)
Attributes:
Body 9 (13)
Agility 7 (11)
Reaction 5 (9)
Strength 1
Willpower 6
Logic 2
Intuition 5
Charisma 1
Edge 4
Essence 4
Magic 4
Derived Attributes:
Composure: 7
Judge Intentions: 11
Memory: 7
Initiative/Actions: 14 + 5d6/1 Major, 5 Minor
Condition Monitor (P/S): 15/11
Defense Rating: 9
Defense Test: 14
Damage Resistance Test: 13
Movement: 10/15/+1
Skills:
Athletics 7 ( 8 ) (Throwing +2)
Perception 5 (Visual +2)
Piloting 1
Stealth 5 ( 6 ) (Sneaking +2)
Qualities:
Aptitude (Athletics), -12 Karma
Built Tough 2, free
Exceptional Attribute (Agility), -12 Karma
Exceptional Attribute (Body), -12 Karma
Exceptional Attribute (Willpower), -12 Karma
Magic Resistance, free
Thermographic Vision, free
Allergy (, Extreme), +20 Karma
Stolen Gear, +20 Karma
Adept Powers:
Improved Reflexes 4
Ware: (Essence -2, 133,760Y)
Bone Density Augmentation (Alphaware; Essence -0.96, 26,400Y)
Muscle Toner 4 (Used; Essence -0.88, 70,400Y)
Reflex Recorder (Athletics) (Alphaware; Essence -0.08, 18,480Y)
Reflex Recorder (Stealth) (Alphaware; Essence -0.08, 18,480Y)
Gear:
Stuff n' things, it don't really matter none, we got us a SHIT TON of GRENADES!
Armor:
None; goin' first and gettin' yas with GRENADES is all the defense I need!
Weapons: (LOTS)
GRENADES! All them there GRENADES!
Combat:
Fragmentation Grenades [DV 16P/12P/8P, Blast 20m, 10/9/4/-/-]; 21 dice to hit
Krime Stinger Grenades [DV 16S/12S/8S, Blast 20m, 10/9/4/-/-]; 21 dice to hit
Karma:
+45 Base (Fomorian's lose 5)
+40 Negative Qualities
-48 Positive Qualities
-20 Nuyen
-10 Logic 2
-5 Piloting 1
2 remaining
Build Features:
GRENADES! Two of 'em! Per turn!!! What else you need, bois!?
Advancement Path:
LOL GRENADES! And some of that there Combat Sense from the top shelf!
Personality:
TEXAS!
GRENADES!
STEREOTYPES!
MURICA!
Say, you bois like Texas Holdem? . . .
(Satire aside, this a perfect example of why grenades are a problem. Slap him in some security armor, and you're looking at DR 19 w/incoming DV -1 for actual defense, and that is with minimal optimization.)
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Lormyr,
If I hadn't been reading the other thread, I would have missed some of the humor/satire. However you have summed it up nicely, as "MURICA!"
Best,
SL
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I may have sneaked in a few jabs at Mikey, but I appreciate you looking at it through the lens intended!
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I get the satire and humor. I don't get your campaign against explosives/grenades.
Yes, they're one of the most powerful if not the most powerful destructive options in the game, if taking into consideration as solely a pure combat sim with no other considerations.
I think this becomes a problem depending on the table, and only if people decide to make it a problem.
1) GM vs Player Mindset
- Problem: GM decides to kill players with grenades by setting up a no escape scenario that can't realistically be accounted for. Hides behind, "Well, that's grenades"
- Solution: Don't be a dick GM
2) Player Murder Hobo Destroyer of All Things
- Grenades blow up drones, cars, infrastructure, vending machines, the nearby pedestrians, and the 1 ganger with a SMG that the player cared about killing
- Solution: Reiterate that it's a living world. That there is a setting, where in many cases, property damage is weighed > most metahuman lives by the corp (assuming you're geeking entry level
wageslaves and they can simply PR magic any bad press around it, "Them evil shadowrunners!!!"). By the player defaulting to grenades, inform them that in setting, they or their team mates would have
sufficient knowledge to understand that it's creating an escalation of threat, where the Corps cannot continue to ignore property and reputation loss due to how noisy and expensive the damage from the
constant AOE dmg has been. If they switch to stun grenades, that progress! Now they're thinking more in line with avoiding incurring long term wrath of the big corps due to hurting the bottom line pass
what it would cost to geek their hoops.
This is just 2 simple scenarios, I can think of more, but got to get back to work. It makes sense that grenades and missiles would be lethal. Question is, does the application of them in the run make sense? Z-Zone, hunting a wild pack of feral ghouls? Makes sense, don't know why a Corp would care. In a AAA high security compound....well, that's going to lead to a bad time, chummer.
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I just prefer good game balance and strongly dislike poor game balance. That is pretty much what it boils down too, and that perspective hardly stops with this particular game or edition. SR6 grenades are just a particularly unbalanced mechanic, even compared to bad mechanics in other systems.
I appreciate that you and others look at it differently, and that is perfectly fine. You guys should definitely play in the manner which you find most enjoyable.
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I got both sides, but as you said "You guys should definitely play in the manner which you find most enjoyable". I only play/run groups and that is how I run/play games. However, learning that SRM is a different animal. I had figured I would play at DragonCon in a few weeks...but COVID stopped that.
Best,
SR
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I get the satire and humor. I don't get your campaign against explosives/grenades.
Yes, they're one of the most powerful if not the most powerful destructive options in the game, if taking into consideration as solely a pure combat sim with no other considerations.
I think this becomes a problem depending on the table, and only if people decide to make it a problem.
1) GM vs Player Mindset
- Problem: GM decides to kill players with grenades by setting up a no escape scenario that can't realistically be accounted for. Hides behind, "Well, that's grenades"
- Solution: Don't be a dick GM
2) Player Murder Hobo Destroyer of All Things
- Grenades blow up drones, cars, infrastructure, vending machines, the nearby pedestrians, and the 1 ganger with a SMG that the player cared about killing
- Solution: Reiterate that it's a living world. That there is a setting, where in many cases, property damage is weighed > most metahuman lives by the corp (assuming you're geeking entry level
wageslaves and they can simply PR magic any bad press around it, "Them evil shadowrunners!!!"). By the player defaulting to grenades, inform them that in setting, they or their team mates would have
sufficient knowledge to understand that it's creating an escalation of threat, where the Corps cannot continue to ignore property and reputation loss due to how noisy and expensive the damage from the
constant AOE dmg has been. If they switch to stun grenades, that progress! Now they're thinking more in line with avoiding incurring long term wrath of the big corps due to hurting the bottom line pass
what it would cost to geek their hoops.
This is just 2 simple scenarios, I can think of more, but got to get back to work. It makes sense that grenades and missiles would be lethal. Question is, does the application of them in the run make sense? Z-Zone, hunting a wild pack of feral ghouls? Makes sense, don't know why a Corp would care. In a AAA high security compound....well, that's going to lead to a bad time, chummer.
Given Krime Stingers and Pepper Punch grenades are cheap and available, there are multiple non-lethal and less property damaging options. 16S will do the job just fine. And Pepper Punch Grenades are no louder / messier than gunfire.
Grenades need a nerfin'. Missions or Home games. *shrug*
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Grenades need a nerfin'. Missions or Home games. *shrug*
^^this^^
If you went back in time two years and posted "I come from the future, I have SR6e, guess what? They halved all the damage codes and armour but left grenades and spirit ItNW at the old values" then you'd be laughed off the internet.
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Minor correction: the hardened armor benefit of ItNW was halved from Fx2 in 5e to F this time.
But could it stand being halved again? Yeah, probably....
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If I was SR king, I'd do the following:
- Grenades get a defense test, just like everything else. Feel free to give that test a -4 penalty though, unless action economy is used in addition.
- Radius halved to 10m.
- Flat DV of 8P across that 10m.
That leaves them plenty strong but not lol auto die.
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Minor correction: the hardened armor benefit of ItNW was halved from Fx2 in 5e to F this time.
But could it stand being halved again? Yeah, probably....
The auto soak amount is the same. Itnw was forcex2 but they auto soaked force. The x2 was their normal armor soak value And the value you needed to beat to have a chance to do any damage. Though AP existed as well.
But in SR6 you will summon spirits with a lower force. But dmg DVs are less. It’s overall a bit of a wash in that regard.
Though for me I’m fine with them being stupid hard to kill. I’m not fine with them being super great at killing. I’d be fine with tanks that were basically pr2 otherwise.
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If I was SR king, I'd do the following:
- Grenades get a defense test, just like everything else. Feel free to give that test a -4 penalty though, unless action economy is used in addition.
- Radius halved to 10m.
- Flat DV of 8P across that 10m.
That leaves them plenty strong but not lol auto die.
If you pass the defense test what happens? This feels a bit like Starfinder grenades which are thoroughly underwhelming and still would be slightly broken were it not for the comparative cost of ammo.
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If you pass the defense test what happens?
(This answer goes for 5e as well as 6e) Whenever I get around to houseruling grenades, I think I'd remove the scatter rules entirely. Defender rolls a normal defence test, gets to dive away from ground zero by some distance based on their hits. You need some bespoke mechanic here to trade off attacker and defender hits, that's the bit I'm fuzzy on; it wouldn't just be "net hits = distance moved" or grenades end up super lethal again.
Maybe as simple as: attacker hits are discarded as long as they hit a threshold (probably just 1 hit) to get the grenade on target. Then defender's hits (not net hits) = 1m moved away per hit. Then tune the grenade falloff in DV over distance to make that work.
Works better for theatre of the mind play (where the scatter rules just become pure "GM fiat"). Isn't any more annoying to resolve than the RAW scatter rules, I think. I'd also do this for physical indirect AoE combat spells.
Also: I can't recall the statlines off-hand, but I vaguely recall thinking there might be room to draw a larger distinction between HE grenades (make them smaller area but give them more AP) and frag grenades (larger area / crappy AP.)
It's a bit gamey but I wouldn't mind grenades to end up in a similar place to XCOM: as much used for flushing people out and destroying cover as they are for actually damaging people. Might require some handwaving around "well, SR armour is super effective, you see" to explain why they aren't quite as lethal as you'd think they'd be. To be fair, SR armour really is super effective, they have things that look and feel like clothing that can shrug off heavy pistol rounds.
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Though for me I’m fine with them being stupid hard to kill. I’m not fine with them being super great at killing. I’d be fine with tanks that were basically pr2 otherwise.
I've experimented with houseruling spirits all kinds of ways, never found anything I'm in love with. My current iteration is that all spirits get F*2 normal armour, but ItNW isn't automatic; it's moved to the Optional Powers list and takes up two powers. This means summoner has to pick between ItNW and the more dangerous optional powers, they can't have both (unless they're working at F9).
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(This answer goes for 5e as well as 6e) Whenever I get around to houseruling grenades, I think I'd remove the scatter rules entirely. Defender rolls a normal defence test, gets to dive away from ground zero by some distance based on their hits. You need some bespoke mechanic here to trade off attacker and defender hits, that's the bit I'm fuzzy on; it wouldn't just be "net hits = distance moved" or grenades end up super lethal again.
Maybe as simple as: attacker hits are discarded as long as they hit a threshold (probably just 1 hit) to get the grenade on target. Then defender's hits (not net hits) = 1m moved away per hit. Then tune the grenade falloff in DV over distance to make that work.
Works better for theatre of the mind play (where the scatter rules just become pure "GM fiat"). Isn't any more annoying to resolve than the RAW scatter rules, I think. I'd also do this for physical indirect AoE combat spells.
Also: I can't recall the statlines off-hand, but I vaguely recall thinking there might be room to draw a larger distinction between HE grenades (make them smaller area but give them more AP) and frag grenades (larger area / crappy AP.)
This doesn't sound all that different from how it works now. I forget how 5e worked...
It's a bit gamey but I wouldn't mind grenades to end up in a similar place to XCOM: as much used for flushing people out and destroying cover as they are for actually damaging people. Might require some handwaving around "well, SR armour is super effective, you see" to explain why they aren't quite as lethal as you'd think they'd be. To be fair, SR armour really is super effective, they have things that look and feel like clothing that can shrug off heavy pistol rounds.
Smaller grenades. SR grenades already seem to have a bigger lethal range/radius than the kind used by the US military (or so the internet tells me). You just need to justify why your grenades are designed to make smaller boom.
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This doesn't sound all that different from how it works now. I forget how 5e worked...
Neither edition gives the defenders a defence test as standard, they only get soak or (at best) interrupt actions (Run For Your Life in 5e, Avoid Incoming in 6e). Avoid Incoming works similarly to what I'm suggesting but can only be used once per turn or not at all if you've already moved (which is a mistake IMO.)
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If you pass the defense test what happens? This feels a bit like Starfinder grenades which are thoroughly underwhelming and still would be slightly broken were it not for the comparative cost of ammo.
You avoid the hit and the damage, just like every other weapon attack in the game. Not familiar with starfinder, so I cannot comment on the comparison, but I promise you people would still get hit with grenades more often than not since Adepts aside the attack pool potential is much higher than the defense test pool potential.
This doesn't sound all that different from how it works now. I forget how 5e worked...
Neither edition gives the defenders a defence test as standard, they only get soak or (at best) interrupt actions (Run For Your Life in 5e, Avoid Incoming in 6e). Avoid Incoming works similarly to what I'm suggesting but can only be used once per turn or not at all if you've already moved (which is a mistake IMO.)
Correct, but the lack of a defense test was more tolerable in SR5 since soak pools existed. In SR6, unless you are playing a Fat Larry build, one grenade kills the vast majority of characters, and two grenades will kill fucking anyone.
1. They cannot miss. At absolute worse, you target Steve, get 0 hits on the attack test, and the explosive scatters 12 meters in whatever direction (it doesn't matter), which still leaves you in the 8m radius of auto damage. On top of that, the mathematical probability of that happening is ludicrously minute.
I'm sorry but I am not sorry, all I can say is that anyone who thinks that is mechanically balanced is not someone I consider to be the slightest bit reasonable in their gaming judgement at all.
2. Yes, you can use an interrupt minor action to potentially get out of some of that radius. I'll even grant you the best case scenario. We target Steve, totally fuck the attack and scatter roll, and that sucker goes 12m wide. He only needs to escape 8m of blast to avoid it. Roll that Reaction + Athletics with the -6 GZ penalty, and you let me know when you get 9 hits to escape it with that formula. Go ahead, I'll wait. Avoid Incoming is laughably ineffective.
And then, to top things off, there is a good chance you are taking 16P right to the face, and a very remote chance you are taking less than 12P. Then the second grenade comes, and you are almost definitely taking 16P.
This collection of mechanics is completely insane to me, but I certainly acknowledge everyone has a right to their own evaluation of it.
Edit: I will add one more personal note too. Not that I have seen anyone in this thread say so, but I have seen others. People that say "but grenade abuse!" really bother me. That sentiment bothers me because why add a mechanic that is intended to be used by players if that mechanic simply existing and being used is abuse? That line of thinking is deeply flawed.
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Correct, but the lack of a defense test was more tolerable in SR5 since soak pools existed. In SR6, unless you are playing a Fat Larry build, one grenade kills the vast majority of characters, and two grenades will kill fucking anyone.
Oh don't get me wrong, we are 100% on the same page re: 6e.
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Correct, but the lack of a defense test was more tolerable in SR5 since soak pools existed. In SR6, unless you are playing a Fat Larry build, one grenade kills the vast majority of characters, and two grenades will kill fucking anyone.
Oh don't get me wrong, we are 100% on the same page re: 6e.
I know, that comment was more general information to consider than for you personally.
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Originally when this was reported, I had missed the offensive comments regarding another poster in the original post. When it was reported a second time, I realized what I had missed. Lormyr has been warned on this and the original post has been modified.
Take another swing at posters even in satire, and more warnings and bannings will be enforced.
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Originally when this was reported, I had missed the offensive comments regarding another poster in the original post. When it was reported a second time, I realized what I had missed. Lormyr has been warned on this and the original post has been modified.
Take another swing at posters even in satire, and more warnings and bannings will be enforced.
Yeah, that's legit, so long as you give one to Mikey too. I only run my mouth after he start shit, you know.
P.S, you missed some boss. Double take on that allergy, it was a masterpiece if I do say so myself!
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If he starts things, report him. I can't read every post in the forums.
Also, attacking him because he attacked you is some third-grade BS. We're all adults here, act like it.
We're locking this thread. The post was done, comments received, nothing else to add.