[dougansf]

Agreed with SSDR.

Skull has a specific rule breaking the general rule of cyber"limbs" that they get AGI and STR ratings. Torso is a cyberlimb, it lacks wording preventing attributes, so it can get them.

[Xenon]

"is the shell a cyberlimb".

I think you missed my point...


Limbs = arms and legs
Cyberlimbs = not only arms and legs but also torso and skull.


Whenever they use the word "Limbs" then, with a strict reading, they only talk about "arms and legs".
If they use the word "cyberlimbs" then they not only talk about "arms and legs but also torso and skull".


"take the average value of all limbs involved in the task." = arms and legs
"If a task requires the careful coordination of several limbs, use the value of the weakest limb." = arms and legs

"Cyberlimbs cannot hold any bioware, nor any cyber-implants that take up Essence rather than Capacity." = arms, legs, torso and skull
"Essence cost, Capacity, and other stats can be found on the Cyberlimb table." = arms, legs, torso and skull
"Cyberlimbs have other useful features." = arms, legs, torso and skull
"They give you 1 extra damage box on your Physical Condition Monitor for each cyberlimb you possess" = arms, legs, torso and skull
"Cyberlimbs can be dangerous even if they don’t have cyberweapons installed— their unarmed Damage Value is (STR)P." = arms, legs, torso and skull

[Xenon]

Pedantry alert... this tangent won't be very much fun.  Just a heads up for people who only cared about the basic question on the face of the original post...

To continue on that road.....

If a test involve your whole body then it actually doesn't matter if you increased all cyberlimbs, including cybertorso (and skull). The cyberlimb increase accessory does not apply. Hard stop.

SR6 p. 290 Cyberlimb Accessories - Attribute Increase
If an activity could reasonably be interpreted to use the whole body in some way (e.g., sprinting, climbing, swimming), then the cyberlimb increase would not apply.

Skull has a specific rule breaking the general rule of cyber"limbs" that they get AGI and STR ratings. Torso is a cyberlimb, it lacks wording preventing attributes, so it can get them.

Which is what I wrote here:

...in 6th edition skull explicitly don't count (so we know that we don't have to worry about that either) - but that also mean that the intent seem to be that attribute values for torso now *do* count

[markelphoenix]

"is the shell a cyberlimb".

I think you missed my point...


Limbs = arms and legs
Cyberlimbs = not only arms and legs but also torso and skull.


Whenever they use the word "Limbs" then, with a strict reading, they only talk about "arms and legs".
If they use the word "cyberlimbs" then they not only talk about "arms and legs but also torso and skull".


"take the average value of all limbs involved in the task." = arms and legs
"If a task requires the careful coordination of several limbs, use the value of the weakest limb." = arms and legs

"Cyberlimbs cannot hold any bioware, nor any cyber-implants that take up Essence rather than Capacity." = arms, legs, torso and skull
"Essence cost, Capacity, and other stats can be found on the Cyberlimb table." = arms, legs, torso and skull
"Cyberlimbs have other useful features." = arms, legs, torso and skull
"They give you 1 extra damage box on your Physical Condition Monitor for each cyberlimb you possess" = arms, legs, torso and skull
"Cyberlimbs can be dangerous even if they don’t have cyberweapons installed— their unarmed Damage Value is (STR)P." = arms, legs, torso and skull

Confused on Str adding to unarmed dmg. Feels more like an editing error for an example than an intentional mapping of cyber arms dmg code to str of arm.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

"is the shell a cyberlimb".

I think you missed my point...


Limbs = arms and legs
Cyberlimbs = not only arms and legs but also torso and skull.


Whenever they use the word "Limbs" then, with a strict reading, they only talk about "arms and legs".
If they use the word "cyberlimbs" then they not only talk about "arms and legs but also torso and skull".


"take the average value of all limbs involved in the task." = arms and legs
"If a task requires the careful coordination of several limbs, use the value of the weakest limb." = arms and legs

"Cyberlimbs cannot hold any bioware, nor any cyber-implants that take up Essence rather than Capacity." = arms, legs, torso and skull
"Essence cost, Capacity, and other stats can be found on the Cyberlimb table." = arms, legs, torso and skull
"Cyberlimbs have other useful features." = arms, legs, torso and skull
"They give you 1 extra damage box on your Physical Condition Monitor for each cyberlimb you possess" = arms, legs, torso and skull
"Cyberlimbs can be dangerous even if they don’t have cyberweapons installed— their unarmed Damage Value is (STR)P." = arms, legs, torso and skull

I did indeed miss your point.

However, there's a 2nd order problem with viewing it that way... if STR/AGI is only factored in when using an arm or leg, then adding STR/AGI is useless for torsos and skulls.  Yet we know it's only useless when added to a skull.  Ergo, you must get to use the STR/AGI on your cybertorso.  And by extension, it therefore has to have the potential be factored in... the best way to reconcile that is to consider the language you're citing as meaning "cyberlimb" when it says "limb".

I'm gonna quote you to support my argument against yours

Language in 6th edition is perhaps not very 'strict' and you can often no longer do a 'strict' reading of the rules it seems... :-/

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Confused on Str adding to unarmed dmg. Feels more like an editing error for an example than an intentional mapping of cyber arms dmg code to str of arm.

It was a commonly overlooked 3rd paradigm for handling unarmed melee damage.  (the other two being STR/2+X, and static DVs)

Personally, it was my goal to unify the three different paradigms for calculating unarmed damage all into 1 universal paradigm.

The errata that got published... didn't use all my proposals.

[markelphoenix]

Hardening directly contradicts (Str) P

Hardening
Through this process, the skin/limb is hardened to make it more club-like and damaging. When at-tacking unarmed, the user has a DV of 3P (increase to 4P if Strength is 7 or greater) and a Close Attack Rating of 6.

[Xenon]

Confused on Str adding to unarmed dmg. Feels more like an editing error for an example than an intentional mapping of cyber arms dmg code to str of arm.

(The above rules are from 5th edition since a 'strict reading of the rules' doesn't really apply anymore)

then adding STR/AGI is useless for torsos and skulls. 

Bingo!

Yet we know it's only useless when added to a skull. 

In this edition yes, now when they explicitly mention that it is pointless in raising your attributes for your skull they indirectly state that there now is a point in raising your attributes for your torso... which is strange, because the only time when torso would be involved is when you use your whole body but when you use your whole body you don't get to use your increase attribute cyberlimb accessory anyway.


I think it would have been more clear if they either:

Just put the same phrase on torso that they put on skull. Then it would be clear that you should not raise your torso attributes once and for all.

Or:

Changed the whole body example and explicitly state that attribute ratings of torso would factor into the test rather than increase attribute not being used at all. Then it would be clear that you should raise your torso attributes once and for all.



I need to think more on what the text actually says and what the intent actually might be............ to be continued

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Seems like the intent is pretty clear.

It only becomes muddled if one insists that cybertorsos are excluded from the rule governing how cyberlimbs work, on the basis that a key clause in the sentence uses "limb" instead of "cyberlimb".

Frankly if you don't do that, there's no confusion.

A key tenet in rules lawyering is that if you can read the rule one way where it doesn't work, but read it another way where it DOES work, you should just read it the way where it works.

[markelphoenix]

Confused on Str adding to unarmed dmg. Feels more like an editing error for an example than an intentional mapping of cyber arms dmg code to str of arm.

(The above rules are from 5th edition since a 'strict reading of the rules' doesn't really apply anymore)

then adding STR/AGI is useless for torsos and skulls. 

Bingo!

Yet we know it's only useless when added to a skull. 

In this edition yes, now when they explicitly mention that it is pointless in raising your attributes for your skull they indirectly state that there now is a point in raising your attributes for your torso... which is strange, because the only time when torso would be involved is when you use your whole body but when you use your whole body you don't get to use your increase attribute cyberlimb accessory anyway.


I think it would have been more clear if they either:

Just put the same phrase on torso that they put on skull. Then it would be clear that you should not raise your torso attributes once and for all.

Or:

Changed the whole body example and explicitly state that attribute ratings of torso would factor into the test rather than increase attribute not being used at all. Then it would be clear that you should raise your torso attributes once and for all.



I need to think more on what the text actually says and what the intent actually might be............ to be continued

In regards to using 5e rules for (Str)P damage, posted right above showing how Hardening, an option for Cyberarms, explicitly invalidates carrinyg over the 5e interpretation.

[Xenon]

Seems like the intent is pretty clear.

As I said. That was the outcome with a "very strict reading of the text" as written in 5th edition (as a strict reading of the text used to be a thing in that edition).


If we leave 5th edition and focus on 6th edition instead.
In 6th edition Increase Strength and Increase Agility does not seem to have any effect on cyberskulls:

SR6 p. 290 Attribute Increase
Note that Strength and Agility increases have no effect when they are included in a cyberskull.


When using your whole body (where Increase Strength and Increase Agility on cybertorso would potentially be used) it seem as if Increase Strength and Increase Agility have no effect:

SR6 p. 290 Attribute Increase
If an activity could reasonably be interpreted to use the whole body in some way (e.g., sprinting, climbing, swimming), then the cyberlimb increase would not apply.



I read this as Increased Strength and Increase Agility are only useful on arms and legs in 6th edition.
(Unless you have any suggestion on a situation where torso would be used that does not at the same time include your whole body).

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I read this as Increased Strength and Increase Agility are only useful on arms and legs in 6th edition.
(Unless you have any suggestion on a situation where torso would be used that does not at the same time include your whole body).

GM Discretion is already explicitly invoked.  The torso can be involved while leaving out some combination of arms/legs whenever the GM says so.

If you're in a sniper's prone position, if I'm the GM I might say sure you only need use your primary arm's AGI stat for the attack test.  If you're standing and using a rifle, I'll probably insist you need to use the lower of the two arms, on the basis of rifles being "two handed weapons", even though the number of hands necessary isn't something recognized by the rules.

Now as I said there's a convention that's got inertia from 5e to go ahead and allow a melee/unarmed attack be resolved by a single limb.  6e doesn't include the language 5e did about "a leading limb" in an attack, so strictly speaking a close combat attack probably SHOULD factor in both legs, your core, AND both arms, since even knife fighting still involves using your free hand/arm for balance/misdirection.  But that'd probably be viewed as hostile/adversarial, and I personally wouldn't recommend it.

But using a 2 handed melee weapon? ok, you absolutely HAVE to be using both arms... it's prima facie.  No legs are considered due to convention.  However, I'd submit that if you're using both arms, you pretty much HAVE to also be using the core/torso.  The only time you'd be using both arms without using your core would be some niche cases like doing braced bicep curls or such.

So, in the realm of GM discretion... if you wanna katana-chop someone... I'd say you factor in both arms and the torso, but not the legs.  YMMV.  And that variance is baked in to the rule already.

[Xenon]

Yeah... I guess you are right.

So some tables will rule that you use torso with all unarmed combat. Other tables will rule you just use one arm or one leg.
Some tables will rule that you use torso and two arms with a all katana attacks. Other tables will rule you just use one arm.

...and because of a general lack of exact language or guiding examples in this edition as a whole I guess they are all within the realm of RAW. And we will also not really know the original RAI less the author choose to step in and explain his intention when writing the chapter.

Some parts got easier (no more discussion if a specific test use average or lowest value, no longer have to think about both customization and enhancement when buying the limb) while other parts got harder (the fact that you can now increase attribute and the only limit being that you have capacity and resources but that you in-game can only utilize augmented limit of +4 seem to be less than clear for a lot of people and it also seem to be tricky to get a clear answer when attributes of torso are included and when you instead just use attributes of limbs).