Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: SwampFox on <02-18-12/0015:11>
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Okay, so it's been pretty thoroughly established that Clockwork has a hatred for Netcat that goes straight into outright obsession. And that, at this point, he's willing to do nearly anything to hurt her.
My question is this. What would happen if Clockwork went after her and Slamm-O!'s kid? What if he killed the kid, or turned him over to MCT as a guinea pig since he's the son of a technomancer? Because it seems to me that Clockwork is pretty firmly in bed with MCT now as their personal TM-Catcher, and that MCT has yet to actually give up their little experiments. They've just gotten better at hiding them.
Would something like that provoke a storm of retribution from the JackPoint community as a whole? I mean, would that provoke FastJack himself to pull out JackHammer and go a-hunting? Would Kane weigh anchor and put on a full head of steam for the hob's last known location? Because I think that a lot of the Jackpointers actually regard the tyke as something of a surrogate nephew/grandson due to their ties to one (or both) of the parents. And a lot of them have lost family and loved ones to the Corps. To have one of their own willingly hand over a baby, the child of not one, but two JackPointers, to the Corps with full knowledge of what is likely to happen to this kid... I think that Clockwork's rating would be the last of his worries.
But I want to hear what everyone else thinks.
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Their's a few that would go off on him. Not everyone though, I don't think the harder ones like Kane or Thorn would really care.
Fastjack and Pistons would help not sure of the others.
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Kane would probably hunt him down just because it's an excuse to kill someone, I think.
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I can almost guarantee Jonny No wouldn't help, and might even defend Clockwork's actions. He seems to fall on the darker side of the shadows, given his fiction and commentary. Not toxic or twisted, just amoral.
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On the "Kill Clockwork" side:
FastJack, Netcat, Slamm-0! of a certainty. You've got Netcat, then you've got Puck. You'll have Pistons and Kane almost assuredly (though the latter is technically a hunch based on my personal, non-canon belief that he considers himself the "adopted uncle"). If you bring in Pistons, you've got Hard Exit and Kay Street Irregular as part of the package. Hannibelle's not big on the whole "turn someone into an experiment" thing. You'd probably get /dev/grrl and Bull. Strikes me as something that Mihoshi Oni wouldn't put up with much, either.
Less than a dozen, but that's still a group of people and a combined skill-set that I would not want to have a hate-on for me.
On the "Defend Clockwork" side:
Haze, Jimmy No, Sticks. Those are the three that come to mind immediately in defense of Clockwork, though they might not necessarily condone what he did to the kid in this hypothetical situation.
Most of the others won't get involved. Not to say they don't care, but they don't have a dog in the hunt, so to speak. There are quite a few of them that I could probably make a case either way regarding their involvement. Thorn, for instance, I could see coming down on either side, or neither. But consider that if he does get involved, either way, he's got an ace in the hole that we know about, but most of the JackPointers probably don't: He works for the Draco Foundation, and Nadja Daviar keeps an eye on him. She knows what he's doing, and if he comes down on Netcat's side and Daviar finds out about it...he could have considerable resources behind him all of a sudden.
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Kane seems to be wanting a family, or at least some semblance of one now that he's "Adopted" /dev/grrl. I highly doubt that "Uncle Kane" is going to sit around and do nothing.
Hell, probably already has an AK-97 with Powder Blue Furniture ready for the kid's first birthday. ;D
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On the "Kill Clockwork" side:
FastJack, Netcat, Slamm-0! of a certainty. You've got Netcat, then you've got Puck. You'll have Pistons and Kane almost assuredly (though the latter is technically a hunch based on my personal, non-canon belief that he considers himself the "adopted uncle"). If you bring in Pistons, you've got Hard Exit and Kay Street Irregular as part of the package. Hannibelle's not big on the whole "turn someone into an experiment" thing. You'd probably get /dev/grrl and Bull. Strikes me as something that Mihoshi Oni wouldn't put up with much, either.
Less than a dozen, but that's still a group of people and a combined skill-set that I would not want to have a hate-on for me.
On the "Defend Clockwork" side:
Haze, Jimmy No, Sticks. Those are the three that come to mind immediately in defense of Clockwork, though they might not necessarily condone what he did to the kid in this hypothetical situation.
Most of the others won't get involved. Not to say they don't care, but they don't have a dog in the hunt, so to speak. There are quite a few of them that I could probably make a case either way regarding their involvement. Thorn, for instance, I could see coming down on either side, or neither. But consider that if he does get involved, either way, he's got an ace in the hole that we know about, but most of the JackPointers probably don't: He works for the Draco Foundation, and Nadja Daviar keeps an eye on him. She knows what he's doing, and if he comes down on Netcat's side and Daviar finds out about it...he could have considerable resources behind him all of a sudden.
There are easier ways to commit suicide than picking on The Baby.
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There are easier ways to commit suicide than picking on The Baby.
Oh, without a doubt. Make that move, and your projected/expected lifespan becomes much easier to measure.
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I don't know if I agree with you on the count of Haze and Sticks, Viking. Sticks may do some questionable things in the course of bounty hunting, but he's shown in the past that he has a no-fly zone for Jackpoint members. He'd probably keep out of it. Haze had his major screwup with Tempo, and he has never shown any support for Clockwork's obsession. I think he'd probably sit it out, though there is a small chance he might join in, just to have a go at Pistons. But unlikely. Direct confrontation like that isn't his style. I can't say what Jimmy No would do.
Fastjack, Netcat, Slamm-O!, Kane, Puck, Pistons, /dev/grrl, Aufheben, Hard Exit, Kay St. Irregular, Bull, Mihoshi Oni, Kat o' Nine Tales, and Hannibelle all almost certainly would come down on Clockwork.
Others might not do anything to actively hunt Clockwork, but they aren't going to step in to support him, either, even the ones who distrust technomancers. A feud between two runners in a network like this is one thing. Involving their family is a whole other thing.
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I don't know if I agree with you on the count of Haze and Sticks, Viking.
I was just quoting, lazy on my part TBH.
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what is interesting in this is that the Clockwork off color joke about TM hideouts being "piggy banks" did not produce a immediate reaction...
Btw, Puck seems to have a mean streak a mile wide. Not a guy to cross...
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I didn't have a reply due to the "Don't feed the Matrix Troll" ideal. Trying to handle him that way would have only set him off more.
And, well, every runner has some group they'll sell a safehouse for. Don't tell me that some of them wouldn't sell a Humanis Safehouse to the Sons of Sauron or, even better, the local Po-Po for a fistful of Nuyen. Or, hell, an organization of Pedos (EDIT: Called “Opie”s on the Matrix, Unwired, Page 20) that set up their own safehouse to wait until the cops can't waste any more time on them... I doubt there'd be a runner around that wouldn't love to sell them out, and I wouldn't want to know about them if they wouldn't.
That's sad, the criminals that shoot people in the face for money seem to have more morals and ethics than, well, anyone else in Shadowrun.
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Sorry Viking. Hadn't had any sleep when I wrote that.
CanRay, I'd say that the people who shoot people in the face for money, and isn't dead or in jail, would have morals and ethics, because the ones that don't tend to go up on a belltower after a while, and just start picking off random people.
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CanRay, I'd say that the people who shoot people in the face for money, and isn't dead or in jail, would have morals and ethics, because the ones that don't tend to go up on a belltower after a while, and just start picking off random people.
Or their more ethical brethren get sick of their drek and waste em. Only reason nobody thinks to do it to Clockwork yet is he's specifically prejudiced, not a total psycho. And Kane may be a psycho, but he's...strange.
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Kane's insane, but he's a professional. Anyhow, who is going to pick a fight with him?
Aside from the insanely naive /dev/grrl, that is? ;D
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It'd be smarter for Clockwork to point an MCT (or whoever) team at Netcat & baby than to try to handle it himself. Depends how much self-satisfaction he wants.
Another problem is, he's now just too easy to frame, should anything happen.
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Another problem is, he's now just too easy to frame, should anything happen.
Ah, good. Someone else noticed this. :)
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Btw, Puck seems to have a mean streak a mile wide. Not a guy to cross...
No, he is not.
His foes got off lightly compared to what I would have him do if I had been able to write the adventures in Corporate Intrigue. Of course, he was also rescued by the most benevolent people possible.
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It'd be a messy little blow-up, that's for sure. Fucking with technobaby is a sure-fire way to (eventually) kill yourself, but...well...hate makes folks do crazy stuff, sometimes. And no one of Jackpointer caliber is ever going to admit, maybe even to themselves, that there's a job they can't pull off. It takes confidence to run the shadows, and to people who are used to dodging megacorporations and federal governments, there's the distinct possibility that "just a few shadowrunners" might not (on the surface) seem like as much of a threat.
So to us? Sure, Clockwork would have to be friggin' insane to try it. We can all see the Jackpointers likely to come crashing down onto him if he gives it a go, we can see how dangerous a group of people they are, we can see how nasty the rest of his life is going to be if he hurts technobaby. But to Clockwork? He's done this sort of thing before. He's pissed off families before. He's snatched technos before. If he goes into it cold and mean and plays it like he has in the past (and, in his head, he will)...he can pull it off.
Obsession and hatred make smart people do stupid, dangerous, things. If you're already used to doing dangerous things...yeah. I could see him making a play. Eventually.
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The whole Clockwork thing reminds me of the old '80s movie Commando.
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The whole Clockwork thing reminds me of the old '80s movie Commando.
Somehow I can't see Slamm-0! walking into the scene with a damned tree over one shoulder...
He's got the whole Daddy Belly going and all. ;D
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The whole Clockwork thing reminds me of the old '80s movie Commando.
Somehow I can't see Slamm-0! walking into the scene with a damned tree over one shoulder...
He's got the whole Daddy Belly going and all. ;D
Well, duh. There'd be a training montage first, of course.
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By Argent! ;D
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So long as mommy doesn't come and rescue his ass at the end like Ocean's Twelve.
That movie ...
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So long as mommy doesn't come and rescue his ass at the end like Ocean's Twelve.
That movie ...
... was worlds better than Ocean's Thirteen.
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I personally thought that the Ocean trilogy was a good view of how a modern-day equivalent to a Shadowrun would look. If the entire team was made up of Faces, Deckers and technically skilled sorts.
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I personally thought that the Ocean trilogy was a good view of how a modern-day equivalent to a Shadowrun would look. If the entire team was made up of Faces, Deckers and technically skilled sorts.
Yeah, but not a Street Sam, Gunslinger, or Hyper-Ninja (my new nicknames for gun-adepts and fist-adepts) in the lot of 'em.
Closest to it in any way was the acrobat.
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Just made the heists that much more impressive IMO.
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Most criminals (well, sane ones) try not to involve young children. Not out of any sense of morality per se; but because that's the surest way to anger a lot of people into putting forth a lot of effort against you.
Mind you, enough nuyen (and hatred) can make people do things that are very self-destructive in the long run. I'd say if the bounty got high enough, Clockwork might succumb to temptation.
Of course, he'd have to be sure to take out both Netcat and Slamm-O...and he'd probably forget about Bull, which I think would be the real source of trouble. Fastjack and the others would be angry, but Clockwork would (or should) anticipate that reaction. Bull might make it a crusade against Clockwork, for very understandable reasons. And Clockwork is more likely to underestimate Bull's capabilities and resources.
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I'm still seeing signs that FastJack is the Godfather. But, yeah, Bull after losing his own daughter would go bulldrek crazy in a china shop trying to track down and make the person responsible die in as slow and painful a manner as possible.
Also, don't forget Slamm-0!s parents, they're still alive and Shadowrunning! Granny and Grampy Shadowrunner isn't going to let that go without nothing!
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Also, don't forget Slamm-0!s parents, they're still alive and Shadowrunning! Granny and Grampy Shadowrunner isn't going to let that go without nothing!
And would, by virtue of being in "the life" for as long as they have, certainly have contacts of their own, to boot. Maybe not full-on Jackpointer/Street Legend types, but a lifetime worth of experienced Shadowrunners, all the same.
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Often, what gets you killed isn't a threat you're aware of and simply don't plan for thoroughly enough; it's a threat that blind-sides you.
I can see Clockwork being smart enough to make plans about Fastjack, Slamm-O, Netcat, and the 'usual suspects'. (Although he might not be as smart as he think he is...) Which would include Slamm-O's shadowrunning relatives. But I can see Bull being the threat Clockwork never even considers, or discounts as being too old to be a problem.
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Clockwork would be a skidmark. Most of the white hats would take part in the operation. A lot more would share information, but not take any personal risk. Those who don't really care would sit out and keep quiet (all the excuse Pistons needs to put a hit on Haze).
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Which sounds like a stiff wind against a house of cards. JackPoint is held together by a combination of trust, professionalism, and non-interference. This kind of polarizing action would clean house, and might redefine JackPoint as where the goodie-goodies hang out. At least insofar as ANYONE is SR is a goody. ;)
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I wouldn't classify most of the talent on JackPoint as "goody-goody." I probably wouldn't put anyone in the SR community on the Good-Bad scale.
More like the Might-Not to When-Do-I-Get-Paid scale.
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Well-said. *tips hat* :)
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Often, what gets you killed isn't a threat you're aware of and simply don't plan for thoroughly enough; it's a threat that blind-sides you.
I can see Clockwork being smart enough to make plans about Fastjack, Slamm-O, Netcat, and the 'usual suspects'. (Although he might not be as smart as he think he is...) Which would include Slamm-O's shadowrunning relatives. But I can see Bull being the threat Clockwork never even considers, or discounts as being too old to be a problem.
What about people not even on JackPoint? They could be even further below Clockwork's radar.
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I wouldn't classify most of the talent on JackPoint as "goody-goody." I probably wouldn't put anyone in the SR community on the Good-Bad cale.
When the world is as dark, dirty, and violent as the one you're in, you forget about good, you forget about heroes, you forget about that fairy tale stuff.
You find the hardest, meanest, most sadistic SOB and DOB that ever walked the Earth, and pray you can convince them to be on your side.
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Agree with both Red and wish I could quote Canray in my games.
I think a conflict is coming... and Clockwork may appear to be the bullet, but someone else may pull the trigger. And then Jackpoint will fall apart. The majority of jackpointers don't want to be pulled into something messy like intercine conflict. If they wanted that, they would work for the Corps/Government/Secret Societies. So Clockwork gets stamped (poor sucker guy), but Jackpoint, in its current form, ends. Maybe in time it can be rebuilt... but I think its enemies, and there are potentially many, would make sure that doesn't happen.
Also, as good as the jackpointers may be individually, and maybe they can work okay together as well, they're not perfect or unbeatable. And an enemy who knowns them, really knowns them, and has the resources and coordination, could wipe out enough key members to end them as a group.
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That might be true, Ray...but it doesn't have to be. There's a place for heroes.
Maybe it's time for me to remind people that giants walk the earth....
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How in the nine Hells do we get along?
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That's an extraordinarily good question. I don't have a matching answer.
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Alcohol?
Good has it's place if only to show how rotten the rest of the world is. There was an amazing bit of script in a Rifts book (Psyscape maybe?) that started "I will fight the good fight". Don't remember the rest unfortunately but it was very inspiring.
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Alcohol?
Neither of us drinks.
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So it's not booze. Hmmmm...no, drawing a blank.
Oh, and I'm all about fighting The Good Fight (http://azziewatch.patrickgoodman.org/documents/TSS-thegoodfight.zip). (And this is probably my most blatant thread-steal ever.)
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One of the redeeming qualities of the Norse myth cycle - a part that Winternight pretty much skips over, IMO - is that in the final battle (Ragnarök) the good guys lose. They get nothing out of fighting except the knowledge that they did all they could. JackPoint might have a similar part of its ethos.
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Eh, I probably drink enough for both of you. Plus, since both of you don't drink that's something right there you are in agreement about.
One of the redeeming qualities of the Norse myth cycle - a part that Winternight pretty much skips over, IMO - is that in the final battle (Ragnarök) the good guys lose. They get nothing out of fighting except the knowledge that they did all they could. JackPoint might have a similar part of its ethos.
Which is kinda pointless and pretty badass at the same time. Nothing like good blaze of glory.
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When the world is as dark, dirty, and violent as the one you're in, you forget about good, you forget about heroes, you forget about that fairy tale stuff.
You find the hardest, meanest, most sadistic SOB and DOB that ever walked the Earth, and pray you can convince them to be on your side.
...wish I could quote Canray in my games.
Go right ahead.That might be true, Ray...but it doesn't have to be. There's a place for heroes.
Sorry, my cynicism is showing. I almost feel that way completely today, forget in a darker future. Don't mind me.How in the nine Hells do we get along?
Because, thank $Deity, it's fiction. And we all know that, even me when I'm at my most cynical.
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Well, maybe not at my MOST. But more often than not. That comes from the fact that messing with me and mine is a sure trip to a world of pain unlike any other previously imagined.
I have a very good imagination. And am very proud of working as hard as possible towards originality.
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You want to know why Clockwork would be a grease stain on the pavement if he ever hurt Netcat's kid? Because even today, in prison there are hardened killers who will geek a guy simply because they're bored, members of rival gangs who hate eachother, racists, rapists, and all other kinds of ne'er-do-wells, and the one thing they all agree on is that the child molester is getting shanked.
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I always got the impression that Netcat was liked on Jackpoint, and her feud with Clockwork was the only exception. If he were to hurt the kid, I think that you'd see a galvanization by the Jackpointers en masse against him.
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Netcat is the voice of reason and compassion on the Jackpoint. Even the people that tease her about that will probably admit that she's much needed to help keep the group from realizing just how far down the rabbit hole they've gotten. ... Well, maybe not Kane, he's pretty much lost down there and loving every minute of it.
The comment about Prison Culture, however, is a good point. Now imagine those folks aren't in prison and have access to weapons, drones, magic, and the Matrix. Even the Arctic Circle wouldn't be safe for Clockwork!
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How in the nine Hells do we get along?
heh... seems to mirror some relationships on JackPoint.
Remember, folks, JackPoint is a lot today's forums. You can put up with a lot of shit from your fellow posters, but if someone crosses the line, the hammer's going to fall.
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And in Shadowrun, the Ban Hammer doesn't just kick you off the forum, it kicks your ghost out of your body.
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Just to throw my own 2 cents in, yeah, Bull would likely come down hard on Clockwork, for many of the reasons outlined above.
And if thee's anyone on Jackpoint that could be considered a "White Hat", it's Bull.
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Just to throw my own 2 cents in, yeah, Bull would likely come down hard on Clockwork, for many of the reasons outlined above.
And if thee's anyone on Jackpoint that could be considered a "White Hat", it's Bull.
Don't know how white that hat is after Slamm-0! diaper bomb... ;)
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Just to throw my own 2 cents in, yeah, Bull would likely come down hard on Clockwork, for many of the reasons outlined above.
And if thee's anyone on Jackpoint that could be considered a "White Hat", it's Bull.
Don't know how white that hat is after Slamm-0! diaper bomb... ;)
What does the "diaper bomb" do exactly?
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Just to throw my own 2 cents in, yeah, Bull would likely come down hard on Clockwork, for many of the reasons outlined above.
And if thee's anyone on Jackpoint that could be considered a "White Hat", it's Bull.
Don't know how white that hat is after Slamm-0! diaper bomb... ;)
Slamm-O was out of line with his comments, and Bull merely slapped him down (albeit with a warning of what would happen if Slamm continued to mouth off about sensitive subjects). Slamm-O has demonstrated that he talks before he thinks several times; I suspect that when Netcat explained what had happened, Slamm felt even worse than he did from Bull's trouncing.
Even a 'white hat' has a few breaking points.
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Just to throw my own 2 cents in, yeah, Bull would likely come down hard on Clockwork, for many of the reasons outlined above.
And if thee's anyone on Jackpoint that could be considered a "White Hat", it's Bull.
Don't know how white that hat is after Slamm-0! diaper bomb... ;)
What does the "diaper bomb" do exactly?
The "diaper bomb" is a new program that Slamm-O! created. It hits you with something akin to a chaotic world spell and boots you from the matrix.
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One thing to keep in mind is that while the book only gives a rules description and a objective rating of effectiveness, each users program may be as unique as they can be. So while in rules terms it may just have been a attack or backout program of some high rating or other, in-universe it was a highly customized program giving out a very special set of sensory data. While the book only says attack-6, in game that can be a sword, a gun or even an stream of fiery breath. Hell, if the target do not have analyze handy there is no way to tell what they got hit with was. In a sense i think SR could benefit from a matrix style generator. This would allow someone to tailor both PC and NPC alike, either by getting inspirations or by simply rolling randomly.
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I've never gotten around to asking Brandie what the Diaper Bomb actually was. In my mind it's a Crash program design to crash Bulls deck combined with some custom Simsense. Nasty and annoying. :]
Just like Freddie. :]
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I've never gotten around to asking Brandie what the Diaper Bomb actually was. In my mind it's a Crash program design to crash Bulls deck combined with some custom Simsense. Nasty and annoying. :]
Just like Freddie. :]
I can just imagine what the 'custom simsense' part would take (especially if anyone here has had kids). LOL
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I've never gotten around to asking Brandie what the Diaper Bomb actually was. In my mind it's a Crash program design to crash Bulls deck combined with some custom Simsense. Nasty and annoying. :]
Just like Freddie. :]
Sounds like it was Fred's way of saying "scat . . ." ::)
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That was horrible Longshot. And dang, I'm loving all these different perspectives, though The Concensus seems to be about what I thought it would.
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That was horrible Longshot. And dang, I'm loving all these different perspectives, though The Concensus seems to be about what I thought it would.
Rule #1: Never involve kids in personal feuds -- it just pisses off bystanders!
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*tips hat to DRagnarok*
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One of the redeeming qualities of the Norse myth cycle - a part that Winternight pretty much skips over, IMO - is that in the final battle (Ragnarök) the good guys lose. They get nothing out of fighting except the knowledge that they did all they could. JackPoint might have a similar part of its ethos.
Thus why when FJ's daughter suggests he renames the JackHammer to you know what, he replies with "Why should I? They lost in that myth. I won."
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"But it's such a cool name!" ;D
EDIT- I just realized something, Clockwork isn't involved in any of the recent shenanigans. Almost every other Jackpointer is at least somewhat involved in something, ut he's nowhere to be seen. It does not bode well.
I haven't finished CI or read Jetset yet so if I'm wrong let me know.
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I think his only real mention lately is where he gets shot about the same time someone tries to hack Jackpoint and erase some files he put up there. He survived, however.
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Well darn haven't read about that yet. Too bad.
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Read Safehouses.
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Huh, really? I read safehouses, great job btw. Must have missed it as I read that and the other ebooks in one go.
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It's subtle.
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Clockwork has a couple one-liners in Safehouses, yes, but doesn't actually do anything.
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Clockwork has a couple one-liners in Safehouses, yes, but doesn't actually do anything.
Doesn't he? ;D
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Nope. /dev/grrl and Fastjack do all the work. Clockwork just chimes in, letting everyone know he's still alive, and crazy.
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Nope. /dev/grrl and Fastjack do all the work. Clockwork just chimes in, letting everyone know he's still alive, and crazy.
I love how people miss the obvious. ;D
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Nope. /dev/grrl and Fastjack do all the work. Clockwork just chimes in, letting everyone know he's still alive, and crazy.
I love how people miss the obvious. ;D
*sigh* You are becoming a True Freelancer, CanRay. ;D
What's he's trying to point out is the Login screen where the person's rep score is in the toilet and their current abode is being breached by drones. (Which, I might add, Netcat is very adept at piloting from a glance at her stats.)
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Yes, we already figured the rep screen was Clockwork's for that one.
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*sigh* I meant more recent than that I figured it was Clockwork getting rolled in another thread (the official one iirc).
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*sigh* You are becoming a True Freelancer, CanRay. ;D
What's he's trying to point out is the Login screen where the person's rep score is in the toilet and their current abode is being breached by drones. (Which, I might add, Netcat is very adept at piloting from a glance at her stats.)
Nah, I've always been a jerk. :PYes, we already figured the rep screen was Clockwork's for that one.
Which is why missing it when you were looking is all the better! ;D*sigh* I meant more recent than that I figured it was Clockwork getting rolled in another thread (the official one iirc).
Nothing yet, but give it another gear book and we'll likely find out how he sold the Megas something else that kills a lot of 'runners dead. ;)
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I will laugh like hell if Clockwork turns out to be a Dissonant technomancer.
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I will laugh like hell if Clockwork turns out to be a Dissonant technomancer.
Seconded. Include Agents and Bound Spirits for more votes!
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Still not seeing it, Clockwork has 4 comments throughout the book. Besides the "piggy bank" one they were all fairly tame. Is that what you were getting at? He got shot and the drugs are taking him to his happy place?
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Still not seeing it, Clockwork has 4 comments throughout the book. Besides the "piggy bank" one they were all fairly tame. Is that what you were getting at? He got shot and the drugs are taking him to his happy place?
Or he got shot and the clinic he went to happened to add a little something extra to the mix. Buzz.
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Psychotropic IC? I'm not gonna discount spirit possession either.
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The JackPoint splash screen is heavily implied to be his (*Cough-Cough*). He's on the run and still running, which is why he's reviewing the Safehouses file.
And, yes, his low rep score on JackPoint has come back to bite him in the ass as no one is helping him in his time of need.
Shouldn't have threatened the kid.
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Yes, I'm pretty sure we figured that. I was wondering about the data erasure that took place. I can't seem to find it, however, I haven't finished Corporate Intrigue or Jet Set yet.
I like how a bunch of people dropped him as a contact.
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I've always wondered which Jackpoint users page was which in the books, I'd always figured they were the person reading the books page.
Now I'm curious who's pages are what.
Also, which book does he make the threat in? I've only read the 2070 and 2071 based books so far, so I'm wondering how many more I have to read to get to the 'well, he just fragged his rep' part (buying and reading the books in order).
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Well, anything from about...4A and on is '74 ish. It's in the Street Legends Suppliement, in his write up of Slamm-O! right after he pulls a "Cool Story, U Mad Bro?" by literally telling him "Good job on finding all that stuff," and not rising up to any bait. Clock threatened the kid and Fastjack warned him off. Clockwork's MAIN drop in popularity was during the Emergence book, after he tried to turn Netkat in for bounty money.
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No, Fastjack didn't warn him off. Netcat said that if he touched her kid, she'd kill him, and Fastjack said "Ditto."
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Which is essentially warning Clockwork off. Honestly, if you piss FastJack off enough for him to want to kill you, you're already dead. Your body just hasn't gotten the message yet.
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That wasn't a warning. That was a promise.
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The majority of JackPoint hasn't weighed in.
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The majority of Jackpoint is likely not wanting to get into the crossfire.
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The majority of Jackpoint is likely not wanting to get into the crossfire.
Would you get between Momma and Poppa (And FastJack) if Clockwork did even the most minor thing to the little guy?
The coroner would put down the cause of death as, "The most stupid form of suicide I have ever witnessed."
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I think you meant 'Momma and Poppa (and Fastjack and Kane)'. Didn't the ol' pirate basically declare himself godfather to the kid? And you'd also have Pistons, /dev/grrl, and Puck lined up in a heartbeat. Clockwork may be a good hacker, but six on one in the matrix, when one of the six is Fastjack, with Kane bringing some toys to the party in the meat world, and you've got one busted clock. The others don't need to worry about crossfire, they just gotta sit back and watch the show.
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Clockwork's a rigger and tech meister.
I don't recall Kane saying he's the Godfather of the little guy. My bets are on FastJack filling that role, myself. Wouldn't put it past Kane to be an "Uncle", however.
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Kane strikes me as megalomaniacal enough to arrange a guns-blazing attack with minions in tow. The others would be more subtle.
I wonder how much of FastJacks anger is really about the kid and how much of it is fear Clockwork will one day break one of Jackpoints othet rules.
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FastJack's a father himself. 'Nuff said.
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Speaking of which, how old would Perri be now? If she was Otaku in '64, no more than 31?
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Kane strikes me as megalomaniacal enough to arrange a guns-blazing attack with minions in tow. The others would be more subtle.
So would the sun going nova. It's not that hard....
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What I meant to.imply was that in this one case, Kane's way might work better. It's not the angle or type of attack Clockwork would be most worried about
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Speaking of which, how old would Perri be now? If she was Otaku in '64, no more than 31?
About that. Which meant FastJack was still wooing the ladies in his 40s! Go FastJack!What I meant to imply was that in this one case, Kane's way might work better. It's not the angle or type of attack Clockwork would be most worried about
Kane'll kill him quick. The rest will make death a release...
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Speaking of which, how old would Perri be now? If she was Otaku in '64, no more than 31?
I believe Perri is adopted.
There is two thing people tend to forget. One a runner like Fastjack has more favors owed to him that a bank has Ą. He could probably call in those favors and call in an army of shadowrunners that will make every nation, mega, IE, and dragon take notice trying to figure out why there is so many heavily armed and angry babysitters in one place. Second, he could get an second army of wanna be shadowrunners and noob shadowrunners to do it for free just so they can say I worked with Fastjack once.
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Speaking of which, how old would Perri be now? If she was Otaku in '64, no more than 31?
About that. Which meant FastJack was still wooing the ladies in his 40s! Go FastJack!What I meant to imply was that in this one case, Kane's way might work better. It's not the angle or type of attack Clockwork would be most worried about
Kane'll kill him quick. The rest will make death a release...
I personally think that Kane'll take his time, rather than offing him off quick.
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Which is rule #1 in the Biz, do not mess with someone who has been in the Biz a Loooooong time.
Because they know everyone, have favors from everyone + everyone else. And if yer a Pink Mowhawk maroon, do not draw the attention of said people ina bad way. They will make you life hell should they choose to do so. And there is little you can do to stop it
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I believe Perri is adopted.
Based on what? Not being argumentative, just kinda curious how you reached this conclusion. Her appearance with Jack in "Happy Trails" would seem pretty inconclusive, though I think she's his biological daughter, personally.
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Stry, I only have one point to make here and then i'll shut my hole. People are forgetting that fastjack wouldn't have to call in favors for something like that, people would be paying hard earned cred to get a shot at beating the hell out of clockwork just because "the kid" is something new we're see-ing in the shadows, a child being raised right before our eyes. It could be a complete meat mundane with no skills whatsoever and the people on jackpoint would leap to its defense just because its a new life and its one of ours.
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Based on what? Not being argumentative, just kinda curious how you reached this conclusion. Her appearance with Jack in "Happy Trails" would seem pretty inconclusive, though I think she's his biological daughter, personally.
I thought I read it on one of the SR wikis or some other SR site, but I could not find where I read it. I will default to you sense I have not read "Happy Trails."
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I'm actually rooting for Clockwork at this point. Sure, he's not a likable character, but he's seriously the underdog here. "Jackpointers pwn some random guy who made death threats on the internet" isn't that impressive, exciting, or noteworthy. So I'm hoping he offs the kid at least before going down if it comes to that.
Also it isn't like the rest of Jackpoint are automatically white hats. They're ruined more than their fair share of lives for cash. It just reminds me of "I may shoot people in the face for money, but at least I'm not a racist" tone Shadowland had. It isn't even the fact that they're not horrible people that bugs me since how morally upright shadowrunners are varies wildy, just the general self-rightousness of it all.
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There is an old Gypsy saying: "I against my brother. My brother and I against our uncle. My uncle and I against the outsider." As Jack himself has said, everyone is free to say and so as they will, and their reps will reflect it, but no one may betray each other. Clockwork crossed that line. Honor among thieves is more than a moral imperative: it's a necessity of business. If your Johnson is always going to try killing you, you'll stop taking jobs. If the fixer always rips you off, you'll stop buying from him. And if your team is always trying to tear itself apart, people end up dead. Professionalism involves a degree of loyalty, and you're only as good as your word.
Unless you're Kane, in which case it's more killer luck, talent, and a really big ego.
Which brings me to my next point: a fair number of folks on JP are hardly whitehats. Hannibelle could hardly be considered entirely trustworthy, Johnny No has stated firmly that he will do almost any job if the money is right, Puck may be trying to make right, but he's got a whole lot of bad still weighing on him, and Rigger X has a bad habit of killing the teams he works with. There are more beyond, but I end to see the activity on JP as less about "doing what's right" and more about camaraderie. That and the fact that most of the things that they unite to fight against are the things which are utterly reprehensible or are commonly considered evil, even to criminals. Consider that child molesters rarely last in jail. Same for people who kill children. You may steal, you may lie, you may even kill, but you're not out there kidnapping babies. That kind of activity reflects poorly on the rest of the community, and pushes at the thin border that separates most shadowrunners from being utterly psychotic mad dogs. Runner like that, you'll note, tend to get put down.
And for lack of any better explanation, Clockwork made the mistake of peeing into the well from which he drinks: he went after people in his own network, people who have become friends, associates, contacts. And any savvy runner knows you take care of the things that take care of you, whether it's your gun, your body, your chrome, your wheels, or the VPN you subscribe to that gives you all that sweet intel and all those job leads.
It was a dumb move. Underdog he may be, but sometimes, the outsider really DOES deserve to be there.
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It was a dumb move. Underdog he may be, but sometimes, the outsider really DOES deserve to be there.
If he was just the punching bag of Jackpoint, that'll be fine. He's a jerk and thus gets treated likewise. Stuff like the Safehouses intro then works. That's what I assumed the Clockwork deal was at the start. A mild amusing comedic asides about the grouch who stays grouchy.
If it's actually suppose to be a threat and this is suppose to be dramatic, then it's not going to work because he's been the punching bag. "Some dudes gang up and beat up a jerk who they individually are more badass than" isn't very exciting except as a feel-good measure to deal with stuff we feel powerless against in real life. Since none of us have to worry about technomancer lynching, I'm not sure how much that matters.
As for the white hats, they're clearly trying to show Clockwork clearing in the wrong. They mention him selling out technomancers for the bounty and threatening kids. What has Fastjack, Netcat, and Slamm-O* done on screen that's on the same scale? Since they're some of the most common posters on Jackpoint, they set the tone. Also, it's more about the self-righteous aura the whole Clockwork arc has.
*- Bull gets somewhat of a pass since he belongs to an older more pink mohawk era that didn't treat itself very seriously.
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The idea behind the Clockwork JackPoint page is that his score dropped even lower than when he sold out Netcat due to the threat on the little guy.
Clockwork does do some good on JackPoint, a lot of the tech guides were written by him (He's a technophile and rigger par excellance) and aside from the Technomancer cracks, he does provide a lot of useful information on other parts of Shadowrunning (Going back to Safehouses, he tells people how they can detect hidden floors from elevator acceleration/deceleration and what gear to have to do it.).
None of the JackPointers are two-dimensional characters, even if Kane comes close, and he's hardly around to "just" call out Technomancers and AIs as "Monsters".
That said, he is a miserable SOB. But I've had friends like that myself who I could rely on no matter what. Hell, there's times I am that miserable SOB. I know I'm hard to be around most of the time.
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That said, he is a miserable SOB. But I've had friends like that myself who I could rely on no matter what. Hell, there's times I am that miserable SOB. I know I'm hard to be around most of the time.
Problem is, Clockwork's shown himself to NOT be the kind of guy you can rely on no matter what. And while the members of Jackpoint aren't all friends, and certainly aren't white hats, they are a tribe, of sorts. And he betrayed the tribe. You'll notice that the outrage over selling out Netcat wasn't that he tried to collect a bounty on TMs, but that he tried to collect the bounty on one of THEM.
That's bad enough. He could have walked his way back from that, even with being the wretched hatemonkey of spite. When he threatened the kid, though, that crossed a red line.
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His days on the JackPoint are numbered, even if he didn't break any official rules. His days alive are possibly even a shorter number.
That said, he might still redeem himself.
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Things still seem ambiguous in Conspiracy Theories; either way, it doesn't look good for Clockwork, but it doesn't seem to be a slam-dunk bad guy thing yet.
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Quite frankly, I'd rather see the brat (Netcat) whacked. The current iteration of shadowrun is a bit too fluffy nice... clockwork is one of the few remaining vestiges of the good old days. /dev/grrl fills the hole neatly... worldly if still a bit naive... netcat has no excuse... she's just stupid/lucky and shoulda been left in a tamanous operation for parts long ago.
Any good story needs it's villains and right now the roster is a bit lacking with way too many bleeding hearts and politically correct tropes.
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Quite frankly, I'd rather see the brat (Netcat) whacked. The current iteration of shadowrun is a bit too fluffy nice... clockwork is one of the few remaining vestiges of the good old days. /dev/grrl fills the hole neatly... worldly if still a bit naive... netcat has no excuse... she's just stupid/lucky and shoulda been left in a tamanous operation for parts long ago.
Any good story needs it's villains and right now the roster is a bit lacking with way too many bleeding hearts and politically correct tropes.
Interesting,...so you see 4th Edition full of bleeding hearts and the majority of runners too P.C. for your taste? ??? Maybe you're aching for the good old days of Teachdaire and Winternight. After all, they were villians. Of course, to work with them made your character a labeled bad guy. Unless ya got off on shooting into a crowd of civilians and justifying it later as preventing possible witnesses from emerging. Well? :P
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PC runners?
Netcat is pretty liberal and moralistic for a Shadowrunner, but don't forget that she is one because the alternative is not so drek hot. (I don't want to be strapped to a table with my braincase opened up, do you?)
The rest are... Hell, Kane fits in with them, 'nuff said.
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Well, to be fair, I will admit that having a small group means you get to know them better. Back on ShadowLand we had a large pool of regulars, but also a lot of visitors. The vast variety of posters, many of them only occasionally chipping in, meant we heard a large variety of opinions and sources, and we maintained a kind of "lost in the crowd" distance from many of them. Talon, Argent, Captain Chaos, Findler-Man, these were regular posters we got to know, but because there were so many people posting, if some of the regulars seemed a bit heroic, we still got looks at the vast majority of runners and were left to draw our own conclusions. Dragonslayer might have an obsession, but a moral code beyond screwing over dragons? Did Pyramid Watcher ever accept wetwork? Would Renraku Fox refuse to kidnap a child? The runners who we got an in-depth look at (Notably Matador and Hatchetman) were no angels.
In short, because there was ambiguity in numbers, we, the readers, we left to form our own opinions and color the world with our own perspective. To some of you, most runners are cold blooded killers. To others, more like a band of honorable thieves. And some of you will see runners as dark heroes. All possible. Looking out into a sea of names, many of whom you barely know, you rely more on your own idea of the world, and through that you become more invested in it.
JackPoint gives us a much smaller cast, with greater detail for everyone there. Some may love it. Some may hate it. It's definitely got it's benefits towards detail, but we lose the freedom to make our own details and customize it in our minds and memories by instinct. Kinda like old PlayStation games looking better in our nostalgia than they actually do on a screen. ;)
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Quite frankly, I'd rather see the brat (Netcat) whacked. The current iteration of shadowrun is a bit too fluffy nice... clockwork is one of the few remaining vestiges of the good old days. /dev/grrl fills the hole neatly... worldly if still a bit naive... netcat has no excuse... she's just stupid/lucky and shoulda been left in a tamanous operation for parts long ago.
Any good story needs it's villains and right now the roster is a bit lacking with way too many bleeding hearts and politically correct tropes.
Interesting,...so you see 4th Edition full of bleeding hearts and the majority of runners too P.C. for your taste? ??? Maybe you're aching for the good old days of Teachdaire and Winternight. After all, they were villians. Of course, to work with them made your character a labeled bad guy. Unless ya got off on shooting into a crowd of civilians and justifying it later as preventing possible witnesses from emerging. Well? :P
I think there is a fantastically wide excluded middle here.
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What about KAM? She's posted a few times on JackPoint, and she isn't even a Shadowrunner.
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Kane's not above torture, I could see him waterboarding someone with jet fuel and lighting it when he's done.
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The people on Jackpoint aren't white hats, with the possible exception of /dev/grrl, Netcat, and the late Fatima. But other than Clockwork, none of them are raging bigots. This isn't like Shadowland, where everyone can come in and say their piece. It is invitation only (mostly), and the general consensus is that twisted hatemonkeys of spite tend to be bad for the health of the network.
But really, I don't see how you can say the Jackpointers are white hats. Skipping past easy examples like Kane and Puck, there's Sticks (no qualms about delivering escaped bunraku girls back to the Yaks), Black Mamba (ill-tempered merc), Ma'fan (thief who does it for the thrill), Aufheben (radical neo-Anarchist), Ecotope (radical eco-terrorist), Orbital DK (runs a black data haven), Hannibelle (works with Tamanous), and I could go on. They aren't white hats. Not by a long shot.
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Quite frankly, I'd rather see the brat (Netcat) whacked. The current iteration of shadowrun is a bit too fluffy nice... clockwork is one of the few remaining vestiges of the good old days. /dev/grrl fills the hole neatly... worldly if still a bit naive... netcat has no excuse... she's just stupid/lucky and shoulda been left in a tamanous operation for parts long ago.
Any good story needs it's villains and right now the roster is a bit lacking with way too many bleeding hearts and politically correct tropes.
Interesting,...so you see 4th Edition full of bleeding hearts and the majority of runners too P.C. for your taste? ??? Maybe you're aching for the good old days of Teachdaire and Winternight. After all, they were villians. Of course, to work with them made your character a labeled bad guy. Unless ya got off on shooting into a crowd of civilians and justifying it later as preventing possible witnesses from emerging. Well? :P
You have an interesting definition of White Knights and Bleeding Hearts.
A major problem with delving into Complete Monster territory (sells kids for sex, guns down large groups of by-standers and other what not) is that it makes you very interesting to a large group of people who rather object to that sort of behavior. That typically includes Security types of all flavors and other sort s of armed types who object to that sort of thing. There are times to Go quiet, and their are times to go loud. And there are Wrong Kindsa Loud.
And there are types of Loud that you really don't want to have.
Politically Correct? Well, I gotta give you that with regards to the whole Ghul thing. Sorry, as soon as they made for all intents and purposes a bloody cannibal that is tolerated and a thinly disgused commentary on the SIDA viri a player character option, that was when P.C. reared it's ugly head.
Sonny, my old time street sam NPC, makes a habit of hunting down Ghuls and removing them from the planet. Typically with fire. He doesn't do it out of hate, but to him the represent a walking infection that takes away a persons meta-humanity and replaces it with something Alien and Predatory. Gotta Go. Same with Vamps and all of their variations. It's like hunting any other supernatural critter that is capable of thinking. It simple requires a bit more work.
He also systematically tortures a person if he needs to to get information for ops, then geeks them
And yet, he saves kids from all sorts of sundry types.
So you tell me: Bleeding heart or not?
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Ah, Hannibelle contributes to the network, followd FastJack's rules, and has shown a willingness to help/cooperate with others on JackPoint. Since she's a good person to have in the biz, it doesnt matter if she lives off nyan cats and the souls of infants.
So long as it's not personal, of course.
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The primary problem with monsters is that they're unsympathetic (for the most part). It's very difficult to make a reader be interested in the fate of a monster (other than wondering when/if they will 'get theirs'.)
In order to make a reader feel for a monster, you have to make them understandable. Hannibelle is someone infected with a disease that made her a ghoul. She ddn't volunteer for this, and is trying to cope with having to eat metahuman flesh by trying to do good in other ways. This makes her understandable; her choices are limited by things beyond her control. The reader can put themselves in Hannibelle's place, and wonder what they might do if faced with the same problems.
Which is part of the problem with Clockwork. I admit I don't have all the sourcebooks, but what I do have doesn't go into Clockwork's background enough to make his hatred of technomancers understandable. Which, for many readers, would make Clockwork a basic monster. Monsters can be capable and enterprising; but in the end, they're one-dimensional.
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Clockwork is kind of the voice of everyone's fears. Take someone who's been discriminated against everywhere because of race, always struggled, and made hinself successful. Whether he's had help or not, he ends up a hatemonkey because he only remembers the bad. Then take everyone's TM fears. Clockwork doesnt have the experiences or inhibutions or whatever to get over it or be objective. In his mind, everyone's as crappy a person as he is, because thats just how he thinks. So of course TMs are just as malicious, plus they have unknown potential to be more harmful. He's expressing thoughts everyone has, but most people also have the common sensr to know that its probably misplaced, where in his worldview everyone's a selfish bastard.
I can understand why he is like he is.
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Ah, Hannibelle contributes to the network, followd FastJack's rules, and has shown a willingness to help/cooperate with others on JackPoint. Since she's a good person to have in the biz, it doesnt matter if she lives off nyan cats and the souls of infants.
So long as it's not personal, of course.
Clockwork contributes too. IIRC, most of the drone books were written by him.
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The amount of chatter Clockwork gets on this forum is impressive. So whether you hate him, or hate the hate for him, he makes an impact. His creator and all who have contributed to shaping his personality/image should be proud to have created a character that really gets people talking.
The key is keeping him interesting or wrapping up his storyline.
Lets have a Survial of the Fittest style book, except this time the Mr Johnson is a member of either Jackpoint, or an enemy of Jackpoint. (Actually, I like the enemy angle. Someone who is manipulating Clockwork and the Jackpointers to cause enough damage to destroy this anit-consensus organisation... Each mission frags with a different Jackpointer, not a direct attack, but a run which messes with each Jackpointer and manipulates them into potential destruction... eg kidnapping Kane's girl and giving her back to the Azzies, running against the Denver Data Haven and framing FastJack (or a megacorp and framing FastJack, Extracting Devgrrl's parents from their megacorp... and of course, somehow framing Clockwork for kidnapping Netcat's kid... Stuff like that)
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We've already had people try to screw with JackPoint.
It... Did not end well for them.
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Was that the Horizon thing at the start of... um... Conspiracy Theories?
I still feel unclear on what happened,.. :o
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Was that the Horizon thing at the start of... um... Conspiracy Theories?
I still feel unclear on what happened,.. :o
Perfect! That's the sign of a well-performed Shadowrun!
No one knows what happened, how it happened, why it happened, or who did it. ;D They just know it really, really hurts and they should not do the same thing again. Whatever it was that caused the owies.
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Was that the Horizon thing at the start of... um... Conspiracy Theories?
I still feel unclear on what happened,.. :o
What happened? Fastjack waltzed into Horizon's high security servers, while a team in the meat made their way into Horizon HQ. Fastjack laid waste to all the technomancers and spiders in the node, before tearing the Dawkins Group's servers apart at the seams, while the team in the meat used nanoweapons to destroy hard copy and physical servers.
In other words, it was the same idea as when the Ayatollah declared a Jihad against the Awakened, and Aden showed up, said "See what you will be warring against!" and then leveled Tehran.
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I thought Aden was saying, "GIT OFF MAH LAWN!"?
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Interesting,...so you see 4th Edition full of bleeding hearts and the majority of runners too P.C. for your taste? ??? Maybe you're aching for the good old days of Teachdaire and Winternight. After all, they were villians. Of course, to work with them made your character a labeled bad guy. Unless ya got off on shooting into a crowd of civilians and justifying it later as preventing possible witnesses from emerging. Well? :P
You're not even arguing my point, you're setting up a straw man by pulling up the bogeymen of old and tarring me with that brush. I agree strongly with the other poster about how different Shadowland/Shadowsea seems to be compared to Jackpoint. The one left for a lot of grey area as to motivations and some mask of anonymity of the posters. The current version fills in all those details a bit too much so.
As for your tarring, I've seen a lot of things... and most runners I think have their price and are quite grey. Not the level you're talking about, but there's no shortage of people out there who will do those kinds of things for money (or get used as dupes by the powers that be in true shadowrun style).
The setting as a whole now has the whole ghoul rights nonsense, push for more ork recognition regardless of ignoring the social problems that come along with what make them different and special. (on top of the idiocy and non-playtesting that was the disease rules and the virus in particular!!! we're talking Resident even levels of plague vector here).
And Netcat seems to have mostly gotten where she is because she's been lucky and sympathetic and seems to have plot armor. She seems to do no wrong. Contrary to many's views I tend to see hers as a charmed existence which allows her to maintain her high horse and ignore the harsh realities of the world. Clockwork on the other hand seems much more calculating and circumspect... willing to play multiple angles. Also, outside of his technical contributes which don't say much about his personal stuff... he's always a bit of a shadowy figure. Nowhere near as one-dimensional as all the hate that seems to come out for him.
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I'm sorry, Falconer, but I believe you're wrong about Clockwork. He's a rabid bigot. In other things, he might be circumspect and calculating, but his rabid hate for technomancers (and the way he's apparently fixated on Netcat) are NOT a circumspect and calculated course of action, and it is bleeding over into everything else. Just like how if a klan member goes to a PTA meeting, that doesn't make them any less a racist.
As for the ork rights, "the social problems that come along with what make them different and special"? Really? The social problems orks have are due to the fact that even before the Night of Rage, they were basically shut into dirt poor status. Then a whole bunch got rounded up into warehouses, which were then lit on fire, and the survivors and their families fled either underground or to the Barrens, where for a long time they lived lives that makes an orphan in a Dickens tale look well off. Now things are a bit better for them, and they'd like to get a few things, like basic sanitation, a voice in government, and equal protection under the law. You know, basic rights.
But we probably won't agree on this topic, so I'll say two things, and then turn elsewhere:
1) Expecting a society, any society, to stay the same over decades (2050-2074) is insane. Compare the US today to the US in the 1980s. WILDLY different.
2) If you want to play Shadowrun in a setting where everyone's a bigot, and life is terrible for everyone except the uber rich, there are places even now you can go for that. The three main ones are Chicago, Bogota, and Lagos. In other words, the drek end of metahuman civilization. Because while most people may have biases one way or the other, they are NOT anywhere near the point where Clockwork is.
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1) Expecting a society, any society, to stay the same over decades (2050-2074) is insane. Compare the US today to the US in the 1980s. WILDLY different.
In the real world? Certainly. But in an RPG, I think it's reasonable to expect some facets of a society, even if not the whole society itself, to remain stable over a long period of time. If I buy a sourcebook about the city-state of Fantasy City-State X, I kind of want Fantasy City-State X to stay kind of static, for me, so that my sourcebook remains a worthwhile investment and handy piece of reading material. We fans are like that, y'know? We want Superman and Lex Luthor to always be butting heads, we want the Joker to break out of Arkham and cause Batman more trouble, and we like it when Peter Parker has to juggle responsibilities at the Daily Bugle as part of his struggles as Spidey.
Sometimes the status quo is appealing, particularly to us geeks. ;)
2) If you want to play Shadowrun in a setting where everyone's a bigot, and life is terrible for everyone except the uber rich, there are places even now you can go for that. The three main ones are Chicago, Bogota, and Lagos. In other words, the drek end of metahuman civilization. Because while most people may have biases one way or the other, they are NOT anywhere near the point where Clockwork is.
Now this part, it all comes down to what aspects of "dystopian future" you enjoy role-playing, and which sections of which sourcebooks you want to focus on. There are some complaints that SR4 has gotten very clean and safe and pretty compared to prior editions, and in part I can agree with them. In a lot of ways, we've moved the focus out of the shadows (and gutters, and dirty back alleys) and spent more time talking about "real" society, complete with technology advances, detailed looks at all kinds of secrets and NPCs, etc, etc. Some folks dig that. Some folks like that they have the option of their Shadowrun game being a little more modern and a little less crap-sacky.
Some folks don't, though. They still like the Barrens more than Downtown, even in a Seattle game, y'know? Both play styles are valid. Both readings of the setting are valid. It all comes down to what you want your Sixth World to be like. Earth's a big place, the Shadowrun canon has an awful high word count total by now, and there's plenty of room for both interpretations, in my opinion.
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Thanks Critias. I would echo that everyone is likely to play their games differently. Some play up the difference society, others make it more... friendly. I've always felt the inherent racism in the Shadowrun world to be a core component.. but things have changed for some. An Orc became head of a megacorp, Japan changed its policies like the Yomi Island stuff, Alamos 20K and Hands of Five have been low key for some time. The original Seattle book at almost as many locations being hostile to metahumans as they did metahuman friendly ones, these days its not such an issue anymoe.
Personally, I also think this whole beat down on Clockwork to be a bit strong sometimes, and that there is a somewhat smugness in how people treat the Clockwork stuff. I don't think Clockworks attitude would be uncommon, he may just be more vocal and active in that attitude. I, and I doubt many are, am not a supporter of Clockwork's behaviour, but I feel the response feels... um... just a bit off-kilter for the characters and settings. But maybe I haven't read enough of the recent fiction to become attached to her character. Maybe I support the underdog, even if he is a bastard, and don't like seeing a guy get so ganged up on. Maybe I like my shadowrunners to be less self-rightous (in my very humble opinion), which is different from being professional (the professionals keep emotion out of it and are most likely the ones completely silent on this issue, probably hoping it goes away because its just a distraction from sharing info and networking).
Actually, this whole discussion (and the sometimes emotional charge it can have) on Clockwork is not too different from how I imagine Jackpoint is feeling right now. Some are coming out strong against Clockwork, some are providing limited support, and the majority may be wondering when this (and the related threads) will finally slow down (or they are just completely ignoring it for the more relevant threads to them).
This whole matter won't be resolved until the Shadowrun team of writers decide to resolve it. I just hope it turns out to be a bit more interesting then Clockwork just getting his arse handed to him... there is a lot of potential here and the audience (us) are diffinently invested, so give us some special and I sure will snap it up.
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Excuse me... you obviously haven't bothered to study your orc'ish lore. At the risk of going too far off topic.
Look at the literature, they breed in LITTERS (hence why I used to refer to them as pig people... goes along with the tusks). Their lives tend to be nasty brutish and short. Who pays to send an orc to school for 25 years and an advanced degree (or even 4 year college), when said orc will be pushing up daisies 10 years later?! The point of orcs has always been that they breed fast, but don't live long. They're sort of like the rabbits of the barrens, rabbits of caerbannog... but rabbits nonetheless.
When a lot of entrenched power structures are based on longevity... orcs kinda lack that element. They make great muscle.. great unwashed levies to man your peasant army enlisted ranks. That kinda thing does make the orc'ish underground a huge impact on the game setting if it suddenly changes from shadowy to full fledged legit.
On clockwork you miss my point, he's more real to me than netcat. He's got his prejudices... and is in a position to act on them. And has obviously done so successfully, since he's still kicking. He has that old school feel where it's not a run til the Johnson has screwed you over twice... (and you've dicked the Johnson in some way he's not supposed to know about).
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I thought Dwarves were the ones that had lives that were nasty, brutish, and short? ;D
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MrBlack, the reason everyone's dumping on Clockwork is not because he hates Technomancers. There are definitely other people on Jackpoint who distrust or are heavily biased against technomancers, though they see their uses. The reason everyone started dumping on Clockwork is because he sold out a member of the network to the corps in order to try and make a quick payday, and when Netcat called him on it, he said "Screw you guys, I'd do the same to any of you, and I expect you to do the same to me." It isn't his bigotry that got him in deep drek, it was the betrayal of the network. Putting a hit on her would be distasteful, but nothing to write home about (note how Haze hasn't caught any drek for putting a hit on Pistons). But he sold her out to the corps, the big bad enemy of runners everywhere.
The most recent round of dumping on Clockwork is because he threatened Netcat's kid as a part of their feud. As has been discussed in this thread and others, that is a BIG no-no, even to hardened criminals. You can have an axe murderer, members of two different gangs, and a Klansman in the same cell block, and the only thing they agree on is that the child molester is getting shanked. Why? Because they all have family. Brothers, sisters, nieces, nephews, sons, daughters.
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Look at the literature, [Orks] breed in LITTERS. Their lives tend to be nasty brutish and short. Who pays to send an orc to school for 25 years and an advanced degree (or even 4 year college), when said orc will be pushing up daisies 10 years later?! The point of orcs has always been that they breed fast, but don't live long. They're sort of like the rabbits of the barrens, rabbits of caerbannog... but rabbits nonetheless.
That might be Humanis propaganda. It may also be anecdotal rather than statistical analysis. In poverty stricken communities, you typically see many children to one woman. That doesn't mean they are all hers. Every able bodied person needs to scrape to make enough to survive. Why dedicate a woman to taking care of one child when you can just dump that child on a woman already doing it?
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Look at the literature, [Orks] breed in LITTERS. Their lives tend to be nasty brutish and short. Who pays to send an orc to school for 25 years and an advanced degree (or even 4 year college), when said orc will be pushing up daisies 10 years later?! The point of orcs has always been that they breed fast, but don't live long. They're sort of like the rabbits of the barrens, rabbits of caerbannog... but rabbits nonetheless.
That might be Humanis propaganda. It may also be anecdotal rather than statistical analysis. In poverty stricken communities, you typically see many children to one woman. That doesn't mean they are all hers. Every able bodied person needs to scrape to make enough to survive. Why dedicate a woman to taking care of one child when you can just dump that child on a woman already doing it?
It was presented as in-universe, medical rather than social, fact in prior editions. Omniscient, word of God, impartial, truth (not in-character chatter).
I'll admit that I think the early writers may not have throught it through (and figured out just what kind of population boom they were causing)...but it is the case that orks bear litters of several squealing little mini-orks at once.
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Has the population distribution of orks changed since 2050?
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In some places, yes. In others, no. I agree that it probably should have (and the one place I've been able to make that call, I've both increased the orkish population some and provided some reasons for why it hasn't gone up more).
But here it is, presented "word of God" style, omniscient third person, in a very clinical, professional, medical report circa the very first write-ups on metahumanity, SR1, p. 28:
Young: Ork mothers usually bear four children, but litters of six to eight are not uncommon. Birth weights as a percentage of mother's weight is 4.2. Suckling time is over seven months. Most newborns are obviously robustus, but may appear as sapiens; 95 percent of the latter will goblinize at puberty, which occurs at an average age of ten.
So it's there, it's canon, and it's been canon since pretty much day one. It was presented the same way in SR2, except they removed the word "litter." In SR3, we got much less clinical narratives about each metaspecies, but the first-person speech given by an ork still acknowledged that they had "high incidence of multiple births," and were "the world's fastest growing population" and the "most numerous" metahuman species.
It has been used as Humanis propaganda, don't get me wrong, but it's never been retconned to only be said propaganda (and it's been mentioned in other sources since, these huge natural families that orks have).
All that said, we're a little off-topic from a conversation about Clockwork. Not too long ago someone started a thread specifically about orkish life cycles, so maybe we should go there if we're going to keep this up: http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=6085.0 (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=6085.0)
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Runner's Companion pg 49-50 says Hobgoblins are predisposed to being jerks and that they take slights against their honor seriously. Clockwork being a "tech guy" sees what techos can do and is angered by the fact that they can naturally do what he was worked so hard for.
It also says they are strongly discriminated against in the Middle East. Which kinda throws me as you'd think it would give him some empathy for technos who are also discriminated against.
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Sometimes those that are most discriminated against can be the biggest racists. For a believable character in that manner, I suggest paying close attention to Samuel L. Jackson's character, Zeus, in Die Hard With A Vengeance. He gets over it right quick after John McClane (Bruce Willis) tricks him into thinking one of the found bombs was at a predominantly black neighbourhood's school, IIRC.
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Which kinda shows how far off Clockwork is, he can't see he's doing the same thing that's been done to him and his people. Plus he seems okay with harming children and babies. I said seems because he hasn't acted yet and could have been just trying to get a reaction, or test the waters to see what kind of reprisal he'd face.
I'm not arguing that shadowrunners or Jackpointer's are happy people that hold hands and sing songs, but that Jackpointer's shouldn't be selling each other out. If no one else they should be able to trust one another and Clockwork has proven he can't be trusted.
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Is Netcat a very liberal person that tries to have high morality? Yes.
Is that a reason to hate her, no.
Everyone has their reasons for 'running, maybe hers is a moralistic journey. And then she got preggers. :P
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Yepper, ya gotta love (meta)human nature in all it's pettiness. Probably why Horizon and others are doing those group-mind experiments. :P
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Netcat tries to be moralistic, but you can't be in the shadows without absorbing some darkness.
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Netcat tries to be moralistic, but you can't be in the shadows without absorbing some darkness.
Hell, I'm in the light and am pretty damned dark.
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It was presented as in-universe, medical rather than social, fact in prior editions. Omniscient, word of God, impartial, truth (not in-character chatter).
In SR1? Yeah, more or less. I quote, "Ork mothers usually bear four children, but litters of six or eight are not uncommon." I thought it had been presente as something Paterson put out, but maybe not. In any case, "litter" is probably a bad word, and Tom and co. certainly didn't think about the population explosion, or of mentioning higher infant mortality rates amongst orks.
Of course, according to the information on the same page, goblinization would appear to happen more often than some in-world would want to make it seem, since 95% of the apparently human children born to orks will goblinize at puberty.
I really wish there was some graceful way of dealing with this, but there really isn't.
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Fire seems to work...
Bad taste?
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The Night of Rage happens in a game in the future... so... yes, too soon.;)
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We already have an active thread on Ork life cycles. http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=6085.msg114849#new
Edit- Coffee before posting.
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You mean I need to actually start going into the Rules forum, too? Geez, this is starting to take a lot out of my day.... ;)
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Yeah, I'm evil ;)
It's mainly for my benefit I have a hard time keeping up if people are discussing the same things in two separate threads. Especially when one is completely unrelated.
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Well, this is where we talk about conspiracy theories and the other thread is talking about the mechanics of it.
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Then my conspiracy is: the UCAS army is breeding Orks for military purposes!
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Then my conspiracy is: the UCAS army is breeding Orks for military purposes!
Every army is. They're the perfect disposable soldier.
And with them speaking Or'Zet, they fit the term "Grunt" perfectly!
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The point of orcs has always been that they breed fast, but don't live long. They're sort of like the rabbits of the barrens, rabbits of caerbannog... but rabbits nonetheless.
As others have said, there's been stuff in various SR products from 2nd Ed onwards about how the shorter lifespans of Orcs and Trolls may well be due to their poor socio-economic circumstances and lack of social mobility rather than their genes.
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I'm sorry, Falconer, but I believe you're wrong about Clockwork. He's a rabid bigot. In other things, he might be circumspect and calculating, but his rabid hate for technomancers (and the way he's apparently fixated on Netcat) are NOT a circumspect and calculated course of action, and it is bleeding over into everything else. Just like how if a klan member goes to a PTA meeting, that doesn't make them any less a racist.
For a different variety of 'Clockwork Timebomb' - imagine Clockwork's reaction if he had a direct, hands-on experience that the Megacorps were not 'Eliminating the Technomancer Threat' but rather 'Harnessing the Technomancer Resource'.
I mean, say he turns in a TM for the bounty, then X weeks later runs into the same TM who's now working for the megacorp who paid out for him/her.
Not quite business as usual to Clockwork, wouldn't you say?
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The point of orcs has always been that they breed fast, but don't live long. They're sort of like the rabbits of the barrens, rabbits of caerbannog... but rabbits nonetheless.
As others have said, there's been stuff in various SR products from 2nd Ed onwards about how the shorter lifespans of Orcs and Trolls may well be due to their poor socio-economic circumstances and lack of social mobility rather than their genes.
That's actually a very small part of it. Orcs back in the 4th world had the shortest lifespans of any race; living past 50 years was a wonder.
(Of course, orc Thief Garlthik One-Eye was over 100 years old, but as a 15th Circle adept that was rumored to steal his days back from Death in his dreams, one could say he could do pretty much whatever he wanted.)
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but given the average orc was A) part of Scorchcer Raider tirbes, or B) A Theran Slave, the shorter lifespan might not have taken that into account.
Or....it might actually be they just havea short life-spans. lifes not fair but there it is
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How does that explain the difference in lifespans between Goblinized Orcs in the same socio-economic situation and a Natural Born Orc?
Never Trust An Elf for a good example of this. Or "Bull" MacCallister being able to still Shadowrun/Fix in his 40s?
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Oh, the explanation is easy. Magic.
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Oh, the explanation is easy. Magic.
Bull's too old fashioned for Magic. Hell, he still uses a Cyberdeck. :P
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All that said, we're a little off-topic from a conversation about Clockwork. Not too long ago someone started a thread specifically about orkish life cycles, so maybe we should go there if we're going to keep this up: http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=6085.0 (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=6085.0)
*cough*
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You can't fight this. Just get SysOp to merge the threads.
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All that said, we're a little off-topic from a conversation about Clockwork. Not too long ago someone started a thread specifically about orkish life cycles, so maybe we should go there if we're going to keep this up: http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=6085.0 (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=6085.0)
*cough*
Nasty cough you have there, better get it checked out.
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All that said, we're a little off-topic from a conversation about Clockwork. Not too long ago someone started a thread specifically about orkish life cycles, so maybe we should go there if we're going to keep this up: http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=6085.0 (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=6085.0)
*cough*
Nasty cough you have there, better get it checked out.
Is there a DocWagon in the house?
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I tried too Critias, we've gone off the rails here.
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(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/9f/Loctite.jpg/220px-Loctite.jpg)
Maybe?
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Funds are a little low for me right now, but in what book does Clockwork go "off the reservation"?
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Funds are a little low for me right now, but in what book does Clockwork go "off the reservation"?
Street Legends Supplemental PDF-Only book.
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In Street Legends Supplemental, he writes up a profile of Slamm-O! Basically intended it as a slam piece, but he revealed that somehow he had gotten close enough to get pictures of the kid, and the rest was basically a complaint that "he doesn't do it like I do". Slamm-O! didn't fall for the trap, and actually thanked Clockwork for writing the piece. Clockwork, taking that as condescension, threatened the kid, to which Netcat and Fastjack both directly said "Touch the kid and you're dead".
The two things Clockwork has done that has put him in disfavor with a good portion of the network is that he sold Netcat out to the corps, and he threatened Netcat's kid. Most of the time, he's treated as you normally would an internet troll who sometimes has interesting things to say. But those two acts, not the fact that he is racist, are what has made Clockwork a pariah. Those were betrayals of the network itself, while everything else was simply annoying, like dealing with a racist uncle you only see at family gatherings.
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As has been said before, Slamm-O followed one of the greatest internet rules: Don't Feed the Troll, and.it set Clockwork off
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As has been said before, Slamm-O followed one of the greatest internet rules: Don't Feed the Troll, and.it set Clockwork off
I wouldn't completely say that he didn't aim for just that kind of reaction from Clockwork.
Kid's not as dumb as his clownish attitude would have you think.
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Oh, I'd say it was 90% designed to set Clockwork off. The best way to enrage someone who hates you is to be nice to them, with just a hint of condescension, to let them know that their cute little antics are so far from being a threat that they might as well be a little chihuahua yapping at a St. Bernard. And it worked like a charm.
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Oh, I'd say it was 90% designed to set Clockwork off. The best way to enrage someone who hates you is to be nice to them, with just a hint of condescension, to let them know that their cute little antics are so far from being a threat that they might as well be a little chihuahua yapping at a St. Bernard. And it worked like a charm.
Yes, counter trolling a troll is an art form.
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No, counter trolling is A art.
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eH?
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No, counter trolling is A art.
Huh? That doesnt make sense.
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On the plus side, you guys are safe from Horizon...
(http://franzejr.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/trolling-is-a-art.jpg?w=630)
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On the plus side, you guys are safe from Horizon...
(http://franzejr.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/trolling-is-a-art.jpg?w=630)
Still doesn't make sense.
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Warning: This link can be a huge time sink. Enter at own risk.
A Art explained... (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DontExplainTheJoke)
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We now have stats for Clockwork! ;D The Twilight Horizon, now on sale!
And back on topic. ;)
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Does Slamm-O speak with an Irish Brogue? I've been wondering since I saw his real name.
Edit- Ahh, I get the joke.
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We now have stats for Clockwork! ;D The Twilight Horizon, now on sale!
And back on topic. ;)
Goddammit.
Why does Catalyst feel the need to stat things? If you stat them, players will want to kill them, and some people/things SHOULDN'T BE KILLABLE. LIKE LOFWYR! OR HESTABY!
That said, Clockwork being statted isn't so bad, as I could see a GM having NetCat hire a team to go take him out before he takes her/her child out.
Still, I have to rage at the constant statting of important characters that don't need to be statted.
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We know Clockwork isn't bullet proof, and that he cries like a girl when he gets shot.
Ordering book now.
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We now have stats for Clockwork! ;D The Twilight Horizon, now on sale!
And back on topic. ;)
Goddammit.
Why does Catalyst feel the need to stat things?
Because some people want things statted. No one's being held at gunpoint and forced to use them, but now that option is there for people that do. Remember all the complaints received when an NPC takes part in an adventure and isn't statted up? "Rabble rabble rabble unkillable Mary Sue BS, rabble rabble rabble at least give us a chance, rabble rabble rabble this is garbage!"
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Damned if you do, damned if you don't :)
Meh. I rarely bother with official stats for stuff when I GM a home game regardless.
My GM taught me one important GM motto: Dice are for sound effect only. aka,. concentrate on telling a good story and letting the players have fun, and don't let the dice, stats, numbers, or even rules get in the way of that.
Bull
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Why does Catalyst feel the need to stat things? If you stat them, players will want to kill them, and some people/things SHOULDN'T BE KILLABLE. LIKE LOFWYR! OR HESTABY!
In your opinion. Some people have other opinions.
I've been doing this RPG thing for better than 30 years now, and I've discovered something: "Stat it and the players will kill it" is largely a myth, in my experience. In those cases where it hasn't been a myth, it's been a quality control issue with the players in question.
What players want and what they can get are (or at least should be) two very different things.
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I agree with Herr Goodman, Critias, and Bull, it's better to have the stats and ignore them than to not have the stats and people complain about it. You can always tweak the numbers for your game.
My only real problem with the stating of some of the NPCs is there's a definite "That's it?" feel to some. Part of me realizes it's the limitations within the system and no fault of the authors. You can't stat everyone the same way or people will complain and you can't "max out" the NPCs or people will complain. It's a fine line and for the most part I think they are doing a good job.
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What players want and what they can get are (or at least should be) two very different things.
My view is more "what the players want and what they can get are one and the same". Doesn't necessarily mean in creation or walking into a store to buy it, but the players should be able to expect that their GM will provide whatever it is they're wanting at some point.
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It's also been my experience in 32 years of this (yes, I'm playing the grognard card...they're no good if you don't lay them down once in a while): Players don't always know what they want.
Sure, they wanna win, and in the end (I believe in campaigns ending; prolonged affairs don't hold a lot of interest to me) they should probably be allowed to do so. But most of them, whether they realize it or not, want the GM to kick the crap out of their characters along the way. They don't want their characters to die...but the ultimate victory is a lot sweeter if, when they arrive there, they look like Bruce Willis at the end of Die Hard. They wanna win, but they wanna fuckin' earn it.
The ones who wanna kill Lofwyr because he now has stats don't wanna earn it. They just wanna do it because they think they can.
A good GM won't let them just waltz in and do it. A crap GM will just give them what they want.
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It's also been my experience in 32 years of this (yes, I'm playing the grognard card...they're no good if you don't lay them down once in a while): Players don't always know what they want.
Sure, they wanna win, and in the end (I believe in campaigns ending; prolonged affairs don't hold a lot of interest to me) they should probably be allowed to do so. But most of them, whether they realize it or not, want the GM to kick the crap out of their characters along the way. They don't want their characters to die...but the ultimate victory is a lot sweeter if, when they arrive there, they look like Bruce Willis at the end of Die Hard. They wanna win, but they wanna fuckin' earn it.
The ones who wanna kill Lofwyr because he now has stats don't wanna earn it. They just wanna do it because they think they can.
A good GM won't let them just waltz in and do it. A crap GM will just give them what they want.
Very well put. I had a player who secretly speced his character out to secretly begin his own personal quest of acquiring a Thor Cannon. I don't think he had any idea what he was going to do with it once he had it, he just knew he HAD to have it.
Thankfully, the player was reasonable, ended up actually PLAYING, and as a reward, he got to fire one off. ONCE. At a plot-critical target. In the ocean. :)
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Damned if you do, damned if you don't :)
Meh. I rarely bother with official stats for stuff when I GM a home game regardless.
My GM taught me one important GM motto: Dice are for sound effect only. aka,. concentrate on telling a good story and letting the players have fun, and don't let the dice, stats, numbers, or even rules get in the way of that.
Bull
On the bright side, if you annoy us, we can now kill you as we have your stats, Bull. ;D :P
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Having worked in restaurants and gas stations for over twenty years, I can tell you plainly that the idea that "The Customer is Always Right" is utter drek. The customer usually doesn't know what the hell they want, doesn't know how to ask for it if they do know, and often wants things that are just plain stupid. So no, "what the players want and what they can get are one and the same" is drek.
Yes, because there are stats on Lofwyr, some moron could go and try to kill him. He may even come up with a plan that might have more than a snowball's chance in hell of succeeding. But sometimes players want stupid things, and must be corrected in their outlook. While no one 'enjoys' a TPK, sometimes it is the medicine needed to snap players back to reality when they go after stupid things, despite all warnings to stop.
If you don't like the stats, ignore them. Hell, there are people out there who apparently don't like the fact that there are vampires in Shadowrun, and ignore everything to do with them. Why can't you do the same for some game info?
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Having worked in restaurants and gas stations for over twenty years, I can tell you plainly that the idea that "The Customer is Always Right" is utter drek. The customer usually doesn't know what the hell they want, doesn't know how to ask for it if they do know, and often wants things that are just plain stupid. So no, "what the players want and what they can get are one and the same" is drek.
Gamers tend to be very intelligent in general. Customers, in general, tend to be--or become--very stupid the moment they reach the counter. :P
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that right the customer is never right but he is the customer so we got to be b.p to him
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Having worked in restaurants and gas stations for over twenty years, I can tell you plainly that the idea that "The Customer is Always Right" is utter drek. The customer usually doesn't know what the hell they want, doesn't know how to ask for it if they do know, and often wants things that are just plain stupid. So no, "what the players want and what they can get are one and the same" is drek.
Gamers tend to be very intelligent in general. Customers, in general, tend to be--or become--very stupid the moment they reach the counter. :P
Sorry to burst your bubble, Guns, but just because you're a geek, doesn't mean you're intelligent. And just because you're intelligent, doesn't mean you don't want stupid things or make bad decisions.
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Having worked in restaurants and gas stations for over twenty years, I can tell you plainly that the idea that "The Customer is Always Right" is utter drek. The customer usually doesn't know what the hell they want, doesn't know how to ask for it if they do know, and often wants things that are just plain stupid. So no, "what the players want and what they can get are one and the same" is drek.
Gamers tend to be very intelligent in general. Customers, in general, tend to be--or become--very stupid the moment they reach the counter. :P
Sorry to burst your bubble, Guns, but just because you're a geek, doesn't mean you're intelligent. And just because you're intelligent, doesn't mean you don't want stupid things or make bad decisions.
The comment was just meant to bring a chuckle. I guess I failed :'(
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Man, when I started this thing I didn't even think I'd get beyond 50 or so replies. This has been awesome just to watch!
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Man, when I started this thing I didn't even think I'd get beyond 50 or so replies. This has been awesome just to watch!
Clockwork is currently a fun topic around here :) Of course now that Twilight Horizon is out...
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Now that Twilight Horizon is out, battle lines have been pretty firmly drawn. Netcat, Slamm-O! and Pistons are all going to be gunning for Clockwork, with whoever they can bring with them to the party.
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Now that Twilight Horizon is out, battle lines have been pretty firmly drawn. Netcat, Slamm-O! and Pistons are all going to be gunning for Clockwork, with whoever they can bring with them to the party.
What's going on (I don't have that book)?
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Horizon's plan to drive a wedge between the Jackpointers worked. Clockwork seems to be on board with it. Fastjack is getting annoyed and is about to start banning people.
Edit- He's really gone off the deep end, whatever is going to happen is going to happen soon. It's sad/funny that he sees himself a righteous crusader and all technos and AIs are criminal scum.
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Now that Twilight Horizon is out, battle lines have been pretty firmly drawn. Netcat, Slamm-O! and Pistons are all going to be gunning for Clockwork, with whoever they can bring with them to the party.
"Hmmmmmmmmm, you can't afford my usual fee, but, guess what... I'm bored. I'm in." - Kane. :P
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"Horizon's plan to drive a wedge between the Jackpointers worked. Clockwork seems to be on board with it. Fastjack is getting annoyed and is about to start banning people."
Hmmm. And while Horizon is diverting resources (and losing some) to deal with a minor issue, what is Saeder-Krupp doing?
That's the problem with powerful people deciding to reach down and smack around little people. One, you never know exactly what those 'little people' might be able to do. Two, it's a fight; even if Horizon can afford to lose the resources, it's losing resources in a fight that it didn't have to engage in. Three, while Horizon is weakening itself (however slightly) in a battle with 'little people', their enemies (like S-K) won't be sitting back and watching the Trid. They'll be looking for whatever advantage Horizon's battle with Jackpoint can provide them. The odds are high that they'll find something.
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Now that Twilight Horizon is out, battle lines have been pretty firmly drawn. Netcat, Slamm-O! and Pistons are all going to be gunning for Clockwork, with whoever they can bring with them to the party.
What's going on (I don't have that book)?
Basically, Technomancers and AIs started trying to pressure Horizon to do more to help them get rights. Then they found out that Horizon was sabotaging their cause. Then they got angry. Then hell broke loose. Clockwork, being the bigot he is, saw this as the perfect time to care about the innocent lives the evil TMs were endangering, and tried to rally people to the crusade. It... didn't work.
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And here I was thinking the Horizon threat was gone after FastJack wiped all their data on Jackpoint.
Guess they had backups they didn't find.
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No, this isn't to do with Horizon spying on Jackpoint. That door is closed, for the time being. But just because Horizon isn't influencing the situation any more doesn't mean that everyone's going to come together and be one big happy family again. Especially since Clockwork was never that type to begin with.
When I said technomancers, I meant technomancers not involved with Jackpoint.
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Now that Twilight Horizon is out, battle lines have been pretty firmly drawn. Netcat, Slamm-O! and Pistons are all going to be gunning for Clockwork, with whoever they can bring with them to the party.
What's going on (I don't have that book)?
Basically, Technomancers and AIs started trying to pressure Horizon to do more to help them get rights. Then they found out that Horizon was sabotaging their cause. Then they got angry. Then hell broke loose. Clockwork, being the bigot he is, saw this as the perfect time to care about the innocent lives the evil TMs were endangering, and tried to rally people to the crusade. It... didn't work.
So what is the current fallout on Clockwork?
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So what is the current fallout on Clockwork?
A lot of people on the JackPoint are getting the Day Job quality so they can "Punch The Clock" as often as possible. ;D
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A lot of people on the JackPoint are getting the Day Job quality so they can "Punch The Clock" as often as possible. ;D
I see what you did there.
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A lot of people on the JackPoint are getting the Day Job quality so they can "Punch The Clock" as often as possible. ;D
I see what you did there.
;D ;D ;D
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Heh, nice.
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So what is the current fallout on Clockwork?
A lot of people on the JackPoint are getting the Day Job quality so they can "Punch The Clock" as often as possible. ;D
Nice, omae.
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So what is the current fallout on Clockwork?
A lot of people on the JackPoint are getting the Day Job quality so they can "Punch The Clock" as often as possible. ;D
Arrrgh . . . thar be puns here!
+1
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hey, no pirate talk till my birthday
as it were, i'll join the fun of the hunt
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So what is the current fallout on Clockwork?
A lot of people on the JackPoint are getting the Day Job quality so they can "Punch The Clock" as often as possible. ;D
*DING!*
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I'm rereading Attitude currently, and it would seem Clockwork may have been affected by Tarder Hillman who is rumored to be a complicated psychological algorithm used by militaries to brainwash enemy populations (pg 110). Tarder Hillman writes books for Horizon. :o
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I'm rereading Attitude currently, and it would seem Clockwork may have been affected by Tarder Hillman who is rumored to be a complicated psychological algorithm used by militaries to brainwash enemy populations (pg 110). Tarder Hillman writes books for Horizon. :o
No, you fool! Don't give them ideas! Do you realize what that will mean if they use that? Clockwork will die horribly at the hands of various Jackpointers, THEN find out that he was under the effects of a military level psychotropic effect. They will then feel all sorts of guilty, or not, depending on level of black-hat-edness. It will spiral out of control, and then cause the Horrors to come back thousands of years early for some stupid reason.
TL;DR: If you give the writers ideas, the Horrors will eat you.
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I bet it'd be Kane, and he'd just shrug his shoulders and ask for another bourbon.
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/dev/grrl seems to be getting pretty bloodthirsty lately, plus she's got something to prove.
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/dev/grrl seems to be getting pretty bloodthirsty lately, plus she's got something to prove.
Didn't she put a gun to Kane's head?
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/dev/grrl seems to be getting pretty bloodthirsty lately, plus she's got something to prove.
Didn't she put a gun to Kane's head?
Ayup.
Kane's took her under his wing as her mentor, after that.
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/dev/grrl seems to be getting pretty bloodthirsty lately, plus she's got something to prove.
Didn't she put a gun to Kane's head?
Yes, but she was holding the Ares Alpha wrong. That said, the first round would have done him in before she fell over putting bullets into the ceiling.
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I don't know Kane's got a pretty thick skull... :P And he might get upset if she made him spill his rum.
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So, here's a random question. After reading the Twilight Horizon appendix, I keep on wondering as to just who Rachel was. :) Probably just a name, I know, I know, just left me disproportionately intrigued. ;) Was that an established character at all?
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Not an established character. Just one of Netcat's TM friends.
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*nods* Makes most sense, I agree, but for the sake of wild speculation... ;)
Well, does Clockwork's language fit for that? He doesn't make any negative comments about Technomancers, and that gave him a prime opportunity! "Rachel was a threat to those around her" or something similar; Instead, just 'she had a bounty on her head' .Yeah, Technos do have bounties on their heads, but he makes it sound a little more specific, IMO.
Yeah, I'm pretty much certainly reading too much into that. :p ;) Just... you know, newbie, throwing up wild ideas.
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He's saying it because he knows it will piss Netcat off.
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But he could've done that better too. ;) 'The locals were thankful enough.' 'Just being a bounty' is pretty tame and not that irritating; it's what Runners do.[/overanalysis]
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Maybe he's trying to be a bit more polite about things in order to boost his rep score?
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Ka'fuckin'Ching.is the polite way to handle 'I turned your friend in for a bounty'?
Then again, this is Clockwork. That's pretty plausible. ;)
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Ka'fuckin'Ching.is the polite way to handle 'I turned your friend in for a bounty'?
Then again, this is Clockwork. That's pretty plausible. ;)
Compared to his usual, "I turned a monster into Nuyen, and don't regret anything." which is his usual statement, yeah, it is.
I mean, look at his comments on Technomancer Safehouses. ;D
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Oh, yes yes yes. :)
*sigh* Now you've done it. I've got to find something else to speculate wildly and inaccurately about. Damn you, CanRay! :)
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In what book does it talk about Techno Safehouses??? *hides from CanRay* ;D
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So, here's a random question. After reading the Twilight Horizon appendix, I keep on wondering as to just who Rachel was. :) Probably just a name, I know, I know, just left me disproportionately intrigued. ;) Was that an established character at all?
MWU-hahahaha! My first Shadowrun mystery! You'll twist! You'll turn! You'll never figure it ...
...
Okay, it was a name I plucked out of nowhere.
Now, there *are* questions about who and why. Obviously, it was someone that Netcat knew. Did he go hunting her to get a hit in on Netcat? "The rules are that I can't track you down, but that doesn't mean your friends are safe." Is he tracking her movements? Is someone else? Is Clockwork just a gigantic ass? What bounty did he collect? How do those chips of his work?
None of that's mentioned. We could follow it up at some point, but as these were little plot dangles in the appendix of an adventure, odds are that no one will ever pick 'em up and run with 'em, so, by all means, feel free to write your own answers and slot 'em into your campaign. :) Rachel was never seen before and, obviously, will never be seen again. (Well, unless some writer ten years down the line needs a brain in a jar or something. Who knows!)
I'm thrilled that someone read this part, however. My first-ever published thingy. :)
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I thought Rachel was the Angel of Vengeance or that other female TM.
Also check out Running Wild page 193 for an interesting story about Clockwork.
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I thought Rachel was the Angel of Vengeance or that other female TM.
Also check out Running Wild page 193 for an interesting story about Clockwork.
*grabs*
*reads*
...
BWA-haha!
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Hmm, that fuzzy thing sounds almost like a "drop" (dunno where the term comes from tho).
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Ugh
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In what book does it talk about Techno Safehouses??? *hides from CanRay* ;D
You know, for some reason, I can't remember. ::)
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Death by cream pie, however?
I wonder if that was part of his cover ID (His 'real' program being the steampunk relay), or if he just has a Thing about slapstick?
And then I start thinking of him and Slamm-O getting into a tense, highly-dangerous duel, stalking each other through a network, but with cream pies instead of guns.
...
I can't tell if that's high awesome, or horrible.
Ack!
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Sounds like you're high, Wak.
And take into consideration who is telling you that!
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As far as I can tell it's a protosapient called a Kitteh which is on page 200 of Running Wild. that story seems out of character for him.
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Sounds like you're high, Wak.
And take into consideration who is telling you that!
This is why I'm so glad that we have an editor. If you set me loose, I'll generate a bajillion ideas ... 80% of which are weak, 10% are good, and 10% are, well... really, really bad.
Luckily, smart people can cut the bad ones off for me. I don't mind. :)
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As far as I can tell it's a protosapient called a Kitteh which is on page 200 of Running Wild. that story seems out of character for him.
People do things that are out of character all the time.
I'm a prime example of that, quite frequently to people who know me.
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other thing is that its an animal tohim not a person who has alterior motives
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other thing is that its an animal tohim not a person who has alterior motives
"Ball ball ball ball ball ball ball!!!" "Is he always like this?" "Who, Dog? Yes." "Ball ball ball ball ball ball ball!!!" *Shaman Throws The Ball* "YAY!!! BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALL!!!"
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other thing is that its an animal tohim not a person who has alterior motives
"That's what they WANT you to think! Me? I only let that orange furball close to me so I could snap its damn neck."
-- Clockwork
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So what's new between Netcat and Clockwork?
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NDA prevents much talking here, darnit.
My Current Project (tm) includes the both of them, however. It's currently in teh hands of the big people, at which point I have to do revisions and re-writes as needed, which won't happen until after GenCon.
Check back in a month-ish? I have no idea how long this stage takes.
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Heh. I was at work the other day, and thought of the best 'dish served cold' kind of revenge plot for Netcat and Clockwork.
Step 1: Fixer contacts Clockwork about a job hunting a cabal of technomancers.
Step 2: Johnson (who is posing as an MCT Johnson, but looks to work for Horizon) gives intel to Clockwork informing him that the technomancers are supposedly working out of an abandoned Ares facility in the Sioux. Because of the... delicate nature of the op, and its being far from a sprawl where corporate operatives are less likely to draw the attention of the Wildcats, they can't send in a black bag team unless someone scouts the place out.
Step 3: Clockwork deploys to the area with a merc unit to be the black bag team. Because of the technomancer threat, the mercs are going with complete radio silence. Because of the terrain, signal degradation and sightlines become problematic, requiring someone using scout drones to be closer to the facility than they might be otherwise. Clockwork is to send up a flare if he finds that the TMs are at the base.
Step 4: The base has signs of life, and a TM tries hacking one of Clockwork's drones, but is apparently forced out. Clockwork sends up a flare.
Step 5: Netcat sends him a message, thanking Clockwork for falling into this trap, and letting him know that his coordinates have been passed to a group of Legion hackers, who, four minutes ago, launched a Thor missile from an Aesir satellite that they managed to spoof. He now has forty-five seconds to escape the blast zone.
Step 6: A 'training exercise/bughunt' in an unpopulated area kills one hobgoblin.
Yes, I know there are holes in this, but you gotta admit it'd be badass.
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After finally getting Corporate Intrigue I don't think Netcat will be the one end Clockwork. He will cross a line in a threat, then Puck will take care of business.
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To be honest, and I know it won't happen considering the direction that the story has been going, I want Clockwork to win in this one. I don't want Netcat being the survivor. As it is, there are only two major sources of conflict on JackPoint that ever seem to come up regularly: Pistons hating on Haze, and Clockwork in almost any situation.
Removing Clockwork would be a really bad step, as it would just push JackPoint towards even more of a 'goody two shoes shadowrunner network' feel, and it has enough of that already. Plus, removing Clockwork would probably mean that we get another runner who has anger issues, and will be antagonistic simply to fill the role Clockwork left behind, whereas losing Netcat means that whoever fills her place can be a good person or even worse than Clockwork, as well as not having to be a technomancer, as that position is still occupied by Puck (who writers would now have a reason to use more and finish give more character development).
It also opens up a huge amount of character options for Slamm-0, who would now be a single dad with a very young child. It would give him a reason to grow up a fair bit and have large amounts of character development, while also restraining him from going out and hunting down Clockwork as revenge, as he has a kid to take care of (I doubt he'd want to dishonour Netcats memory by becoming a dead beat dad to hunt down Clockwork).
It would be even better if Clockwork was able to manipulate things so that he didn't violate any of JackPoints rules by taking out Netcat, and thus the other runners couldn't go and exact revenge on him without FastJack having to step in on Clockworks side. Sure, Clockwork would take a large hit to his JackPoint rep and would probably never be able to call on a fair few other members for help, but he's proven that he doesn't care about that and doesn't like relying on others, so that wouldn't bother him.
TLDR: If Netcat wins, JackPoint becomes an uninteresting goody two shoes fest, if Clockwork wins, there are a million and a half story and character development paths instantly available.
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Maybe Slammo can go the Lone Wolf and Cub path?
Would be more interesting if a different jackpointer betrayed Netcat and framed Clockwork...
Yeap, I agree. Lots of potential story paths.
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Maybe Slammo can go the Lone Wolf and Cub path?
Would be more interesting if a different jackpointer betrayed Netcat and framed Clockwork...
Yeap, I agree. Lots of potential story paths.
But let's face it, things with the books have hardly been going the 'dark and gritty' path of late. Clockwork will die, Netcat will be there forever, her kid will join JackPoint as a MarySue at age 3 and everyone will be one big happy family. :'(
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Um, they're definitely not going 'dark and gritty', but you'd be hard pressed to say they're going 'sweetness and light', either.
But really, I think you're missing one key point. Jackpoint is NOT Shadowland. Shadowland was an open forum for anyone who could get to the right node. Which meant you had assholes from every fringe group and crazies in there side by side with 'normal' folks and government men. Jackpoint is a private network, where people are there to share info, and build connections.
Looking back to old Shadowland posts, Clockwork definitely isn't a fan of the otaku, but before the Crash he wasn't anywhere near as rabid. In Jackpoint, he used to serve an actual purpose, being a source of knowledge on all things rigger-related, but he's become more and more rabid towards technomancers. Now think about the people in your life. Do you willingly go spend time with the neo-nazi chauvanist asshole who can't go two minutes without making racist or sexist statements? I'm not saying that Jackpoint should be a 'let's all be friends' kind of thing, but do we really need 'major sources of conflict' in the group? I don't know about you, but I got my fill of that kind of conflict and drama in high school.
To make a point, going through Shadowland posts, while the sniping between Sons of Sauron and Humanis members, or the constant dragon-baiting of Dragonslayer and his ilk add to the realism, the interchanges I like best are the ones that convey meaningful information, or that hint at the bigger picture. Sometimes those interchanges involve interpersonal conflict, but they don't get to the point that the nutjobs get. Laughing Man and Wordsmyth rarely have a nice word to say to eachother, for instance, but they keep it as respectful as they can, as one might expect in a group of people who don't have to like eachother, but do have to work together. You can have 'conflict' without trying to keep the rabid dog from getting loose.
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One of the things I wanted to work on, in fact, was that Clockwork is on Jackpoint for a reason, and "I hate Technomancers" isn't it. He's also been pigeonholed as the only one who has a problem with Technomancers, something that isn't true, and Netcat's reputation has been that she's, obviously, on the side of good so can't have flaws.
These were things that I knew I wanted to tackle.
What I hope is that, after my Current Project (tm) sees the light, people will be able to say, "You know what? Maybe Clockwork ain't that bad." That they'll understand a bit more on why he's on Jackpoint (But I confess that it's more tell than show... wordcounts are harsh) and that things might be a tad more
shades of grey' than we'd been thinking. One of the things I do, personally, is run a 'noir' flavored game, where the heroes have feet of clay, but they're still heroes. Everyone needs some personality flaws, but bad guys also need a little light inside. One of those "Even Al Capone called his mother every Sunday" type of things.
Jackpoint is filled with some unsavory people. Rigger X's history of spying on everyone and excessive bodycount runs. Haze is an accused rapist and known to use his magic to mind control people to do unsavory acts. Riser and Thorn are both cold-hearted killers. Lyran's a con artist who doesn't think twice about bilking someone out of their nuyen if it gets her richer. The key, for me, is that while no one is untarnished, even the tarnished folks have silver underneath.
If that makes sense.
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Maybe Slammo can go the Lone Wolf and Cub path?
Would be more interesting if a different jackpointer betrayed Netcat and framed Clockwork...
Yeap, I agree. Lots of potential story paths.
But let's face it, things with the books have hardly been going the 'dark and gritty' path of late. Clockwork will die, Netcat will be there forever, her kid will join JackPoint as a MarySue at age 3 and everyone will be one big happy family. :'(
it's entirely possibly, due to the vagaries of genetics, that Netcat's and Slamm-0!'s child will not be a technomancer, or even inclined to be a hacker. Doesn't that knock the 'Mary-Sue' theory on its head?
Artifacts Unbound, Corporate intrigue and Twilight Horizon, as well as Missions Season 4, don't count as dark and gritty? Must have been reading them wrong . . .
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Everyone's assuming the kid's going to survive to become a (still mis-named, but I'm getting tired of trying) Mary Sue.
This is not, in fact, a guarantee, our general policy of not imperiling kids notwithstanding. I don't know anything either way, as I'm not doing anything with this storyline but occasionally kibbitzing, but it's a bitch of a world sometimes. Characters die. I know at least one of my favorites is likely not going to make it out of the current series of stories alive, and none of my characters are going to come out of it unchanged (or, in some cases, whole).
I had a point when I started this, but I don't seem to have kept a hold of it very well. Anyway, everyone seems to be assuming that Clockwork's a goner and Netcat's kid becomes Technomancer Jesus or something. And that's not necessarily the case.
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I keep thinking of Patton Oswalt's comedy routine about his kid when I think of Slamm-O. Patton's dad was a marine, for instance, while Patton himself is a tubby white suburban kid who played D&D and writes poetry. He's convinced that his own kid will wind up being some big jock that'll pay him back for all the misery he caused his own father.
"Hey dad, is this your lightsaber?"
"Yeah, it's a limited edition one signed by..."
"It's on theroof now! *fling* Hah hah!"
"Oh, come on son. Don't bully daddy..."
"Why doncha climb up there and get it, ya wuss?"
"Well, the ladder's wood, and you know how I am about splinters. Can't you go up and get it for me?"
"Maybe. If you gimmie twenty push-ups."
"Oh, come on son..."
"Do it, ya wuss!"
*sigh*
Slamm-O!'s kid will wind up being an investment banker or something. "Oh man, where did I go wrong?"
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One of the things I wanted to work on, in fact, was that Clockwork is on Jackpoint for a reason, and "I hate Technomancers" isn't it. He's also been pigeonholed as the only one who has a problem with Technomancers, something that isn't true, and Netcat's reputation has been that she's, obviously, on the side of good so can't have flaws.
Clockwork isn't the only member of Jackpoint who has a problem with technomancers. Glitch, for one, is on record as not being a major fan. Clockwork is, however, the only member of Jackpoint who raves on about them like a Humanis member talking about trolls. There's a lot of middle ground between "I got no problem with them" and "Kill them all". Most of Jackpoint falls into that middle ground. They don't completely trust TMs, but then a lot of people still feel uneasy about mages, as a whole, though they know individual mages who are all right.
All the Jackpointers have flaws. Just because we haven't had screen time with those flaws doesn't mean they don't have them. Afterall, we don't know any flaws that Fastjack, Kat o' Nine Tails, Winterhawk, Goat Foot, or Sounder have, just to pull some examples, but I haven't heard anyone saying that they are sweetness and light types.
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Slamm-O!'s kid will wind up being an investment banker or something. "Oh man, where did I go wrong?"
More like, "Wow, he's a better thief than I am!"
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Oh, how it's hard to be a banksta.
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Love to see more rounded character development for Clockwork... but on the flip side, even though many of the other Jackpointer's have engaged in unsavoury acts (eg Haze, Kane etc), not many of the other Jackpointer's respond match to there comments. Kane seems to be fairly popular, despite the many crimes his committed (shooting prisoners, selling people into slavery etc). Haze gets some flack, but not much.
Also, in fiction at least, conflict is an important part of story/character development. While we can get some from Hard Exit and Picador when they talk about the various conflicts they have been involved in, I feel you get some of the best stuff from when people conflict (disagreements to vendettas). Also, opposing views provides a more rounded view of events. Finally, now that we dont had shadowland, we miss a bit of that 'man on the street' feel on what people are thinking out there. Some of these bias may seem extreme, but maybe every second wage slave out there is terrified of technomancers and Clockwork's statements are mild compared to what people are really saying?
Would actually like to see more 'personal' views like this. Eg, what do people really think of the Azzies, the Draco Foundation, Nadir, the Dragons? We think Hestiby may be a 'good' um.. person, but what about a runner who is suspicious of all Dragons and Elves? Why do people trust Frosty so much? She hangs with the 'players' and holds back info all the time. Can Jackpointers really trust her? Maybe she shares the info both ways, no what I mean?
When are the Jackpointers going 'mix it up' against each other on a run? The latest adventures have people running into rival runners all the time... but the Jackpointers don't run into each other that much... really?
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Haze is called on his Tempo addiction (and apparently was part of Fatima's death!), as is Turbo Bunny at times. Clockwork is called out on having sold Netcat out, not so much because he collected a bounty, but that he did so on "one of our own."
Kane, for all his insanity and high-end everything, has never seemed to hit the JackPointers in any way majorly. He is honest about the Biz he does, and that gets him a level of respect despite what he does.
It's hard to see, but Clockwork does have a bit more of a personality than "I work for the biggest stick" and "Techomancers are as bad as filesharing!!!" Not much of one, but hell, I'm pretty sure we've all known people IRL with even less personality. I know I have.
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Rigger X took a MASSIVE reputation hit when it was revealed that he routinely collects data on everyone he meets and that he has a strict "No witnesses" policy that leads him to gun down security guards just in case they've seen him.
Riser, meanwhile, is a paid killer, but has a professionalism about him that gets him off the general snitlist.
I don't think that there are any abject racists that we know of (Shame, because there should be a couple), while no one seems to fall into the monster category (Babies in the woodchipper, just because I can). No practicing blood mages I don't think (James will correct me if I've missed one, I'm sure) but a few cold-hearted types, like Sticks. Lyran's bilked people out of money, so she's probably stolen retirement checks from old people or lunch money from children before. "A fool and their nuyen," and all that. They'd wind up wasting it ANYWAY, so it might as well wind up in her hands, where it can be well taken care of, right?
The nicer Jackpointers get used more often because, well, writing likable people is fun, since they have to crawl around in your head for a while to set the words down well. The badguys are also fun, but the *repulsive* ones, nobody enjoys. Ever since he was accused of rape, Haze has largely vanished, for instance. Kane's so over the top that it just bounces off his likeability field. :)
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Its not that there arn't 'bad' people in Jackpoint. Its that no one seems to care to the same extent as Clockwork. Haze gets one hater, sometimes, Clockwork seems to have a hate club.
On a related note, Clockwork get the most 'air time' here on the forum, so in a way, his a pretty successful character, even if its notority rather than popularity. If would be a shame if he was overused.
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Clockwork gets a lot of airtime in the books as there's a lot of technology that's talked about, and he's the group's major technophile. Notice that he keeps his trap shut when it comes to magic.
Personally, I think Plan 9 should talk more when Augmentations and Bioware is referred to. Typically because (s)he's had it installed at one time or another. Thank goodness for Essence Shadows!
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Clockwork gets more haters than others because he directly sold out another Jackpointer to the corps, and because he is an openly rabid bigot. All the Jackpointers have biases, and there are more than a few who are leery of Technomancers, but Clockwork is the only one that takes the hate and dials it up to 11. You see a group forming to counter him because unless you're also in the 'rabid hatemonger' club, having someone constantly spouting off about how one group or another is evil and abominations and should be killed is not something most people would want to deal with on a regular basis. You saw the same kind of thing back in the Shadowland days, especially with Dragonslayer chiming in every time dragons were mentioned. After a while, people just get sick of that drek. In fact, the more virulent Clockwork gets, the further it pushes everyone else away from him.
Look at a real world example. I give you the 'Birther' movement in the US, led by Man-of-Obvious-Combforward, AKA Donald Trump. The more people spout off about how they think Obama was born in Kenya, even after both forms of his official Hawaii birth certificate were published, the further they isolate themselves on the lunatic fringe. People who merely dislike Obama for one reason or another try to keep their distance, for the most part, because otherwise the Birthers make them ALL look like crazy nutjobs, whether they are or not. The same thing is happening on Jackpoint with Clockwork. It also doesn't help the situation any that Netcat has actually gone out of her way to try and prove that technomancers are just folk, and the corps really are doing horrible, horrible things to them. She's been playing it smart, not rising to Clockwork's bait most of the time, which just makes him look even worse. Sooner or later, though, things will come to a head, and because she's worked on getting allies, and Clockwork told everyone on Jackpoint that he would sell them all down the river in a heartbeat if there was pay in it, Netcat is likely going to come out on top.
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Clockwork gets a lot of airtime in the books as there's a lot of technology that's talked about, and he's the group's major technophile. Notice that he keeps his trap shut when it comes to magic.
Personally, I think Plan 9 should talk more when Augmentations and Bioware is referred to. Typically because (s)he's had it installed at one time or another. Thank goodness for Essence Shadows!
Whenever a new vehicle or drone book comes out, Clockwork needs to stand up and start laying out the techspeak like few others, help show why he's there.
Plan 9's "The Conspiracy Guy (gal?)", but the bio-aug needs to get more airtime as well. As stated, if it's Evo, it's been on, or in, Plan 9 at some point. Gender-flipping, genotype-switching, morphology-twisting, Plan 9'll try anything trans-human. I'm sure that Plan's gone through a "Catgirl" phase, probably had neon feathers and a beak before, and certainly has gotten an aquatic adaptation to go gill-diving at the Marianas Islands. Might get a zero-G mod (spindly!) and go hang out with Orbital DK for a couple of months.
Which, oddly, reminds me. New Thread!
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Love to see more Jackpointers showing which Corp they hate/support etc. Maybe a someone who hates Bugs or Dragons as well.
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Everyone hates bugs. Sticks and Man-of-Many-Names in particular. As for dragons, there aren't any dragon haters in the group, though the only one who might deal with them would be Frosty.
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Bull hates bugs too. He hates them so much he refuses to talk about them. Or even look at them.
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Everyone hates bugs. Sticks and Man-of-Many-Names in particular. As for dragons, there aren't any dragon haters in the group, though the only one who might deal with them would be Frosty.
Actually, there *was* one dragon-hating Jackpointer who was fairly open about it. Mentioned that Dragonslayer had been taken out and that she was going to pick up the torch.
She was killed during the opening salvo of the Ghost Cartel storyline. D'oh!
No one else has come out *openly* against them sense.
But that doesn't mean that they're not there...
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Just means they're smart enough not to voice it out loud where the Dragons might be listening.
After all, you really think FastJack is going to deny "The Big D" a place on the JackPoint if he comes back? ;D
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There is already a dragon (of sorts) on the guest list...
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Actually, there *was* one dragon-hating Jackpointer who was fairly open about it. Mentioned that Dragonslayer had been taken out and that she was going to pick up the torch.
She was killed during the opening salvo of the Ghost Cartel storyline. D'oh!
No one else has come out *openly* against them sense.
But that doesn't mean that they're not there...
*blink* Ok, who was that again?
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fatima?
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Fatima's the only Jackpoint member that I recall dying in Ghost Cartels, but I don't recall her having any particular beef against dragons.
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I could be remembering wrong... I've loaned out my Emergence and Ghost Cartels, so I don't hav ethem handy to check on at the moment, but, yeah, Fatima's who I was thinking of. Let's see...
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Uh, in Vice there was a reference to gangland violence being the reason Dragonslayer and Fatima are dead. Pg 31.
Is that what you're thinking of?
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No, that's Fastjack saying "Don't get mixed up with organized crime and getting whacked".
There's a thing with Dragonslayer being dead and Fatima (Again, I could swear it's her, but it might have been someone else) being pissed over it and picking up the torch. Watch it be Goat Foot instead.
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Yeah, I don't recall Fatima being anti-dragon, even in the Shadowland days.
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Yeah, it's Fatima.JamesMeirs, icon of awesome, found the passage, but hasn't pointed out what book it's in yet. If anyone has a few minutes, Fastjack's list of Jackpointer posts, and a good library, they should be able to get the passage before I get back from work. (At lunch now, onweak laptopwith bad spacebar and no access to the libraryof doom.) Mentions howshe never thought she'dmiss Dragonslayer, but now that he's gone, she does, and that she's getting tooold for thiscrap.
Back to the dayjob for me, but I'llbe back here in a few hours, with a good spacebar. :)
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Went through the list, and the quote in question is in Runner Havens, page 54. On reading it, I don't think the quote is so much a statement that Fatima hates dragons as it is frustration with draconic power games, specifically those involving Lung and Ryumyo and their pet syndicates.
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> I never thought I’d miss Dragonslayer, the old nutjob. I’m getting
too old for this shit.
> Fatima
Doesn't seem to be Fatima expressing an agreement with Dragonslayer's dragonhate, so much as her realizing that she'd gotten used to hearing him chime in at moments like these, so now the absence of it is a reminder that he's dead.
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After you've buried far too many friends, acquaintances, and even enemies... It does age you rather quickly.
I mean, Bull, who Goblinized and will live a Human lifespan, is what, only 40? You'd think he was 40 in ORK years from the way he looks and acts.
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> I never thought I’d miss Dragonslayer, the old nutjob. I’m getting
too old for this shit.
> Fatima
Doesn't seem to be Fatima expressing an agreement with Dragonslayer's dragonhate, so much as her realizing that she'd gotten used to hearing him chime in at moments like these, so now the absence of it is a reminder that he's dead.
Hrm. It does read differenty than the memory in my head.
Nutbunnies.
Well, we'll just have to wait for Clutch of Dragons to see if anyone's brave enough to unroll some venom. :)
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> I never thought I’d miss Dragonslayer, the old nutjob. I’m getting
too old for this shit.
> Fatima
Doesn't seem to be Fatima expressing an agreement with Dragonslayer's dragonhate, so much as her realizing that she'd gotten used to hearing him chime in at moments like these, so now the absence of it is a reminder that he's dead.
Hrm. It does read differenty than the memory in my head.
Nutbunnies.
Well, we'll just have to wait for Clutch of Dragons to see if anyone's brave enough to unroll some venom. :)
EDIT: The hell? Why did it get moved into the quotes?
Speaking of dragons (figured I'd just throw this question out rather than starting a new thread), can someone tell me which great dragon goes by the alias 'Damon', if any at all? He's mentioned in Running Wild as being the only known great who doesn't care what gender he transforms into for his disguises, but then isn't listed in the list of great dragons a few pages later. As far as I know he needs to be a great to be able to shapeshift, so was it just a random comment that got past the editors, did they forget to add him to the list or is he an alias for another GD?
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> I never thought I’d miss Dragonslayer, the old nutjob. I’m getting
too old for this shit.
> Fatima
Doesn't seem to be Fatima expressing an agreement with Dragonslayer's dragonhate, so much as her realizing that she'd gotten used to hearing him chime in at moments like these, so now the absence of it is a reminder that he's dead.
And a reminder of how long she has been in the game.
I get a less extreme version these days when i read about friends planning weddings, and family i recall as toddlers suddenly showing up behind the wheel of a car.
Then i really freak myself out by thinking ahead...
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Damon's not a great dragon, just a regular ol' dragon. He's something of a party animal, wearing whatever gender catches his eye that day, goes out and parties, sleeps around, and generally does his best to enjoy every day like it's his last instead of getting involved with dragon politics.
Like anything draconic, he'll probably be mentioned in Clutch of Dragons.
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Remember, while greats have the inherent ability to assume metahuman form, any dragon can take one or more metahuman forms via a spell. It is a shapechange type magic, so gender is not necessarily conserved.
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And not limited to dragons. I find myself reminded of a shadowtalk story in one of the older books, where a runner would use such a spell to seduce targets, bring them to a hotel room, and when the target thinks he is about to get intimate, drop the spell and reveal himself as a hulking big troll...
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That was most likely a mix of illusion and control emotions/thoughts, but you could do it with a spell, yes. Oh wait, there's one right here (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=5812.0) that does just that! </shameless self promotion>
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Damon's not a great dragon, just a regular ol' dragon. He's something of a party animal, wearing whatever gender catches his eye that day, goes out and parties, sleeps around, and generally does his best to enjoy every day like it's his last instead of getting involved with dragon politics.
Like anything draconic, he'll probably be mentioned in Clutch of Dragons.
I really hope so. He seems such an interesting character, far too much of one to have been ignored for so long!
Probably the only Dragon I'd want to do a deal with. Even if it was just Beer Pong. ;D
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Arleesh is one I'm interested in. She's out there, doing *something*, but I don't knowwhat or where. As the late bloomer of the set, she's still playing catch-up.
Firewings still needs eyeballing, and ... shoot. What's the name ofthe other German dragon? The one that Lofwyr prevented from getting involved when Firewings wasgetting shot down? He owes Lofwyr a debt, IIRC, but hasn't been heard of since, as far as I know. The German writers probably have something about that whole situation, tho.
Back on the topic, however, if possible, I'll ask MrHardy if I can make a little poll in the feedback section on products. I'm curious how many + votes Clockwork might get when it's over. If any. Who knows? Maybe people will - vote him, just because, you know ... jerky jerkface who jerks. :) Of course, I also don't know whenit'll be added to the release schedule.
(And my spacebar iscollapsingagain. Back when home insteadof the laptop. See you in a few hours!)
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And not limited to dragons. I find myself reminded of a shadowtalk story in one of the older books, where a runner would use such a spell to seduce targets, bring them to a hotel room, and when the target thinks he is about to get intimate, drop the spell and reveal himself as a hulking big troll...
It's in Awakenings.
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ah HAH! There's James! When does Clutch go on sale, good sir?
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Arleesh is one I'm interested in. She's out there, doing *something*, but I don't knowwhat or where. As the late bloomer of the set, she's still playing catch-up.
Firewings still needs eyeballing, and ... shoot. What's the name ofthe other German dragon? The one that Lofwyr prevented from getting involved when Firewings wasgetting shot down? He owes Lofwyr a debt, IIRC, but hasn't been heard of since, as far as I know. The German writers probably have something about that whole situation, tho.
Back on the topic, however, if possible, I'll ask MrHardy if I can make a little poll in the feedback section on products. I'm curious how many + votes Clockwork might get when it's over. If any. Who knows? Maybe people will - vote him, just because, you know ... jerky jerkface who jerks. :) Of course, I also don't know whenit'll be added to the release schedule.
(And my spacebar iscollapsingagain. Back when home insteadof the laptop. See you in a few hours!)
Nebelherr is the dragon who apparently owes Lofwyr, and Kaltenstein is the great dragon prevented from aiding Feuerschwinge. Just FYI.
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Nebelherr and Kaltenstein are written up in the German version of Street Legends along with Monika Stueler-Waffenschmidt and the Kommando Konwacht (roughly "Corpwatch Crew") decker group. The one thing I cannot help thinking of is that Kaltenstein is as tall as my house (3.5m) in his troll metahuman form, and quite bulky. He is massive (http://sirdoomsbadcompany.wordpress.com/2012/01/06/shadowrun-strasenlegenden-early-preview-2/).
I can't say anything about Clutch.
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And not limited to dragons. I find myself reminded of a shadowtalk story in one of the older books, where a runner would use such a spell to seduce targets, bring them to a hotel room, and when the target thinks he is about to get intimate, drop the spell and reveal himself as a hulking big troll...
It's in Awakenings.
Been loving it ever since my mind picked up on the crazy cover.
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You know, it'd be awesome to get some translations of that german material.
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You know, it'd be awesome to get some translations of that german material.
Yeah, it constantly seems that the Germans are getting the best stuff. :'(
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You know, it'd be awesome to get some translations of that german material.
Yeah, it constantly seems that the Germans are getting the best stuff. :'(
Well, it isn't like we're restricting the good stuff to the Canadians ... can you imagine? They're all too busy with hockeybeavers and snow.
:)
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You know, it'd be awesome to get some translations of that german material.
Yeah, it constantly seems that the Germans are getting the best stuff. :'(
Could be because they can pick up and translate the english stuff once we are done pointing out all the flaws and such.
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Nah... there just very creative. Just saw this on another thread:
http://old.shadowrun4.com/resources/downloads/fanpro_shadowrun_shockwaves.pdf (http://old.shadowrun4.com/resources/downloads/fanpro_shadowrun_shockwaves.pdf)
Pretty cool... 8)
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I should have taken a firmer hand in that translation, but my job was to make sure it was correct. And I already had to tread lightly with FanPro anyway.
Anyway, there are legal and financial issues at hand besides just the logistics of translation from French or German. I don't know whether the French version have their own additional writeups in their version of Street Legends. However, as it applies to Catalyst products we do have copies of the text and have discussed the dealings as it pertains to current material, e.g. Clutch.
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Anything new about the feud?
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There's a number of things at play with Clockwork, and why people hate him. In no real specific order
1) Clockwork is a hobgoblin. This is a simple statement, untill you look a bit further into it. A) Hobgoblins are a Middle Eastern Meta-varient of the Orc Metatype. This isn't a huge deal for most people, but it -was- a hugge deal for the people in the middle east. The Hobgoblins were by and large slaughtered by most of the middle eastern countries. Entire villages put to the torch. Clockwork himself has made comment about soldiers using kids or babies for target practice, just for kicks.
That's alot of hate towards Hobgoblins, where hobgoblin's are from. With out trying to ruffle too many feathers, the Middle East isn't exactly well known for it's sedate people and open-mindedness when it comes to things that are 'different'. I forget where the comment was from Clockwork but the indication was he was there, and had hate for those people killing hobgoblins. Not just a "Well on the other side of the world my people are facing horrors" but more of a "I was THERE Man!!" type of thing.
B) Hobgoblins, as a metavariant are distinguished by their physical differences, (( Skinny, green skin, sharp teeth, etc)), and their Psychological traits. Those being two major points. First: They tend to be assholes. Describe it in what ever words you want, but that's the long and short of it and two.. and this is a bit bizarre for a manifestation of a metatype, and not cultural.. but they have a firm view of personal honor, and will go to great extents to avenge any slight they --perceive-- against their personal honor. (( Their view of their honor being their own, not anyone elses))
These are two important factors in Clockwork. The first part, the intense racism against his people at the hand of ... his other people and the whole sale slaughter that was engaged on Hobgoblin's by the Middle east. Part two, that inborn trait of seeing to avenge slights against them.
Now.. clearly Clockwork can't avenge all the slights against hobs that were perpetrated in the middle east, and by all accounts he's not working out of the middle east. So he 'got out'. He's still got all that hatred from that youth in him. All that hate that's built up in a orc... a hobgoblin meta-variant that we're told, as a biological expression, is driven to avenge slights.
2) We see his instant fear and racism against Technomancers. It could initially appear from a very common source. The "Fear of the unknown." Alot if not most people were afraid of Techno's. Now.. take that innate "Fear of the unknown" add in the "Memory of the Second Crash" and how bad it hurt people. Now add in a huuuge heaping dose of "Hobgoblins by and large, tend to be assholes" then add in "Some people are just bigger assholes than others." ( You know it's true in life. Some people are really nice. Most people are some where in the middle but you all know those few people that you just wanna punch in the throat they're such big jerks). Put Clockwork on that end. Even among Hobgoblins, he's an exceptional jerk. This adds up to alot of emotion that comes pouring out...
Then add in all that racism against his people. It's sad but true. Those that have suffered intense racism often are intensely racist themselves. Often against those who perpetrated the hate upon them but not always. And not logically. Just like abused children often abuse THEIR children, even when they should know better, even when you think they'd be the LAST ones to ever do it, the numbers are shockingly high.
I imagine that this aspect of his personality manifests as a load.. a heaping load of self hate. He has had (( Up till the techno Emergence)) no 'outlet' for all that piled up hate and emotion.
Now here's something new... something scary... something that's linked (( correctly or incorrectly)) To the Crash. Here's something that is 'smaller' than him. That he can fixate on. He's scared, and as we know, there are two main reactions to fear. Fight or flight. Clockwork has chosen Fight. He's taken all that fear and self hate and he's thrown it fully at Technomancers. His innate jerkyness, all the prejudiced that he's been through, all that want to lash out has finally given him a target.
Why did he choose them? Could just be that fear, or it could be the other aspect of hobgoblin biology, that 'revenge slights' aspect. He sees Technomancers getting for free, what he had to work his entire life for. Sees it as an affront. Could be even more base. Hobgoblins are from the middle east. And while there are plenty of middle eastern people OUT SIDE The middle east. The comments that Clock work has dropped indicate he grew up there and fled the murders and stuff there. It could be..... that Clockwork some how sees Technomancers against his 'version' of god. The meshing of man and machine in that way. Again. Not everyone from the Middle East are Religious Zealots. Most are NOT..... but.. there's a reason you think of Religious Zealots when you think of the middle east.
You look at all these aspects and they easily add up to 'who/what' Clockwork is.
I hate the fraker.
He took that fear, he ascribed to it, and he performed some actions. I've read all 22 pages of this thread and even though it's mentioned more than once some people seem to miss it. For a number of pages there, a number of people say something to the extent of "Ok he threatened the kid, but didn't do anything. And everyone is dogpiling on poor Clockwork."
The first thing he did was contract out an op, to try and deliver Netcat to one of the Mega's. To be cut open and vivisected upon. Not just kill. Not even just 'betray'. He purposefully orginised a shadowrun against one of their own. Cut a deal with a 'common enemy'.
He didn't do it for money. He didn't do it for some deep set ideology. he did it for the simple point of overwhelming racism/fear, and wanting her to be captured, tortured, cut open, experimented on, and eventually killed.
For something she had zero control over, and she had committed no crimes against any of the Jackpointers.
That was his first action. People freaked out. He basically just started ranting and raving against Techno's. For a while everyone was scared... ok... he's taking it to extreme. Then he keeps throttling up up up. Then suddenly, he sells one of them out to be vivisected. Based on that fear and hatred.
That was bad. he was unrepentant. At this point he made what I think was the second mistake. His "Hobgoblinish" aspect comes out and he tells them all, "Frak you. I did it. I'm proud of it. I'd do it again. And I'd sell out all you too!"
So not only did he betray one of their own, he tells the rest of them that he'd do them just as easy.
Fastjack doesn't kick him out, because he didn't use Jackpoints resources to do it. And there's no 'rules' against taking runs at one another. This outrages people too.
Then Jack points out that they are a self regulating sort of group. And while taking contracts against one another isn't 'forbidden'.... if you do... and you screw it up..... someone's going to come after you for it... HINT HINT EVERYBODY!!! HINT HINT!! IF YOU WANNA KILL HIM, HINT... HINT.. *Cough*.
Things quite down a bit after that then comes big mistake number three. Not the write up against SlammO. That's just pure Matrix-trolling. When Slamm-O set off that honor/pride thing again Clock work makes his fourth mistake.
The Third mistake was giving detailed description of Netcat's baby. Hair color. Skin. Ears, and eyes. I think Netcat and Slammo would surely look twice at any Hobgoblin coming near their kid, so chances are he didn't look into a stroller or anything. So Clockwork has very likely hired out another shadow run against them, to gather information. Why would he gather information (( All the information on SlammO and apparently the kid))? Because you're going to sell or use said data. So Mistake Three was targeting the kid ( And Netcat/SlammO again with shadow action)
Mistake four comes at the end of the File when SlammO basicly laughs and pats Clockwork on the head and goes "Thanks man. Your observations just made me better. Have a nice day!" Clockwork's Honor/Pride is insulted, the Hobgoblin jerkyness and honor thing kick in and Clockwork threatens to sell the baby to a lab to be cut up and vivisected too. (And through this, either netcat with him, or killing Netcat and SlammO to do it)
So by this point Clockwork has betrayed one of their own to be cut open and dissected, experimented on etc.
FAILED at it
Was called out, and was unrepentant.
While he was being called out, said he'd do it again
Also said he'd betray ANY one of the jackpointers for a cheeseburger
Then through his knowledge of SlammO, and mostly the detailed description of the baby, has tipped his hand that he's hired out another shadow run against Netcat/SlammO/Baby. (Again this is presumed, because Hobgoblin's stand out, and if you see a skinny green shark toothed orc walking towards your baby and a skinny green shark toothed orc had tried to have you cut open and your brain tore out and worse, you're going to take a hell of alot of notice and very likely shoot him before asking to see his ID.))
Lastly, after that run where he's got the description of the baby, has threatened the baby directly (Not just indirectly through the knowledge of the description and how repugnant he found the baby)), saying he'd sell the baby to a lab.
His list of transgressions are pretty deep by this point. He's also targeted, "Some of their own" and more over has gone against a huge human/Meta-human taboo of threatening/harming/targeting children. The kicker is he didn't do this out of anything deserving. he did it souly out of fear and racism. Which people don't tend to like openly.
Sure if you're racist against the same thing THEY are racist against you might sit around and talk about that. but some guy at work, just suddenly going on a hate filled tirade on a racist bint, then out of nowhere starts trying to kill co-workers/ colleges.. .that's something else all together. Add in that the guy is targeting babies, and has openly said he'd do the exact same thing to you...
Well, it's pretty easy to hate the guy. One might understand how you get from A to B to C to D... but 'understanding the motivation' isn't forgiveness for the actions.
He's a bigoted racist jerk that made the mistake of turning on his own, --FAILING--, getting caught. Threatening --everyone--, and then going back, trying again, and then threatening the baby/mascot of the group.
I hope he dies. I hope Netcat does it. I hope it's horrible. And I hope that washes off some of the "Shining image of gleaming light and all that's good" some seem to ascribe to her.
You don't mess with a tiger's cub.
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Wow, a lot of thought and emotion went into that post.
Hate or not hate (yet to see even a like..) the character, you have to admire a the fact that this character, perhaps more than any other jackpointer, has really gotten a reaction out of people. Many RPG characters can be somewhat bland, with a gimic or some mild characterisation. But they rarely see characters get the level of attention that Clockwork does.
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Don'tcha just love that character. 22 pages devoted solely to him; and there's plenty written about him in lots of other threads too. Naw, Clockwork's the guy we all love to hate and it'd be sad not to have him around anymore.
That said, as for gathering information on the baby, he doesn't need a shadowrun crew for that not does he need to get close himself. He's a rigger, he shouldn't have much trouble getting a spy drone close enough for some footage... or send a flyer over very high and just use image magnification.
Yeah, sure, NetCat and SlammO! are a techno and a hacker and probably best equipped to deal with drones, but they can't be watching everything, all the time. Especially not with a kid around.
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Especially as it's shown a few times that Slamm-0! is being a House Dad while Netcat travels the world Shadowrunning. That might be so that Clockwork doesn't have a reason to target the "Spawn of Slamm-0!", however, or it might have been a choice they made.
Despite a lot of hate Clockwork gets (even in-universe), he is a useful contact and, aside from the one bad deal he did selling out Netcat, he hasn't broken the rules of JackPoint ever. In fact, it's not completely apparent, but being the local technophile (which is another strike against him personality-wise, he insulates himself from Metahumanity by being around machines all the time, so doesn't develop better social skills) he's the one writing a fair deal, or correcting a good bit, of the tech stuff that's in the e-books/Runner's Black Books.
Contacts don't always have to like you, or you like them, you just need to be able to work together. And, when it comes down to it, Clockwork is an outright mercenary (Dictionary-sense of the term.).
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That said, as for gathering information on the baby, he doesn't need a shadowrun crew for that not does he need to get close himself.
"Need to be".... not technically, but if you're trying to stay alive, you're going to want a degree of seperation between you and those sorts.
He's a rigger, he shouldn't have much trouble getting a spy drone close enough for some footage
Not trying to be snarky, but if you're Netcat, and Slammo, and a world class Rigger has already confessed to the betrayal and attempt to turn you over to corps to be vivisected and worse, shows no remorse and says he'd do it again. You're going to take some precautions against drones. Now add in 'mother and father' protectiveness to the equation, and that almost paranoid hypervigilence and preparation is going to be multiplied to an astounding level. Any drone that gets close enough to that baby to try and take a picture, is going to be molten slag. How many sprites do you think Netcat has watching the baby alone, on 24/7 defense? Not to mention both Netcat and SlammO being world class runners. Slammo's parents being world class Runners. While on the surface the ol "He'll just fly a drone by and snap a few pics" is even less likely than Clockwork sneaking close enough himself.
... or send a flyer over very high and just use image magnification.
Again I have doubts on this. If nothing else, Netcat has been on the run for years from Corps trying to extract technomancers to cut up. SlammO for years very clearly signed and defaced corp and other Matrix property. These aren't the sorts of people that are going to take their baby for a walk in the park, uncovered. Not to the point where someone could say "You should see the brat they spawned together. Pale white skin, a shock of red hair, pointy elf ears, and eyes so green you’d swear they were cybereyes. Ugly little bugger." That's not a high alt fly over just happening to catch a baby in the open to get that sort of detail, where you can say pointy elf ears on a baby or eyes so green you'd swear they were cyber eyes. That's a close up look at the baby from some source.
Yeah, sure, NetCat and SlammO! are a techno and a hacker and probably best equipped to deal with drones, but they can't be watching everything, all the time. Especially not with a kid around.
That's the thing... they really can. Everyone on these websites talks about sleep regulators. But with out even touching that, Netcat could have dedicated sprites watching the baby 24/7. REALLY dedicated overwatch there. Add in a few drones your self and you have every second of the day babysitters. While in your secure local, you don't have to watch every second with your eyes on the baby every milisecond. And when you go out, (( Lets be honest, a techno and super hacker aren't "OUT" that much with a baby in tow)) You quadruple your vigalance and keep an eye out. You use a covered stroller, or keep the baby covered up. (( bullet proof onsies!!))
Now I'm not saying they're perfect. Clearly SOMEONE breached their security SOMEHOW, to the point that clockwork has seen the baby and can describe it in flowery detail. Still it's not just a hand wave "Oh he flew a drone by and got the pic,. No biggie" type thing. :)
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I gotta give you kudos on your brilliant and insightful thoughts on Clockwork's big mistakes, Pepsi Jedi.
You nailed them right on the head. You did forgot one little, teenie, tiny detail though.... Not only did he pissoff pretty much everyone (probably at least 95% of the Jackpointers), but FastJack (the kids' godfather, for frak's sake).
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Someone with an eye recording unit is a better bet for the baby's description. It's doubtful Necat and Slamm-O are going to be blinding random people on the street because they happen to have cybereyes.
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I like Clockwork.
He's one of the few people who doesn't have a hardon for NetCat and her playing house. For that alone, I love him.
Seriously, just kill the kid and the whiny mother already, and I'll be happier.
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What has the kid ever done to you? It's not like you've had to change his diapers. :P
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What has the kid ever done to you? It's not like you've had to change his diapers. :P
I'm just not a fan of being force-fed good guys. I'm not the type to root for the bad guys 'Just Cause', but to me, NetCat is JarJar Binks, and whoever kills her and her spawn shall win my eternal thanks.
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What has the kid ever done to you? It's not like you've had to change his diapers. :P
I'm just not a fan of being force-fed good guys. I'm not the type to root for the bad guys 'Just Cause', but to me, NetCat is JarJar Binks, and whoever kills her and her spawn shall win my eternal thanks.
She's moralistic, but I'd hardly call her a "Good Guy".
And the kid is being raised by Slamm-0!, which means Netcat is only the Baby-Momma. Nurture over nature, he'll likely grow up to be an eternal man-child who loves sports.
Or rebel completely and become an honest accountant.
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What has the kid ever done to you? It's not like you've had to change his diapers. :P
I'm just not a fan of being force-fed good guys. I'm not the type to root for the bad guys 'Just Cause', but to me, NetCat is JarJar Binks, and whoever kills her and her spawn shall win my eternal thanks.
I have a project tied up in the SR4-5 conversion that might change your mind on her. We'll see.
Shadowrun's never been about good guys and bad guys, it's about shadowy grey people and human failings. I want to clean off some of the grubbier people and toss that dirt on the cleaner people. Luckily, I'm not alone in that. :)
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What has the kid ever done to you? It's not like you've had to change his diapers. :P
I'm just not a fan of being force-fed good guys. I'm not the type to root for the bad guys 'Just Cause', but to me, NetCat is JarJar Binks, and whoever kills her and her spawn shall win my eternal thanks.
I have a project tied up in the SR4-5 conversion that might change your mind on her. We'll see.
Shadowrun's never been about good guys and bad guys, it's about shadowy grey people and human failings. I want to clean off some of the grubbier people and toss that dirt on the cleaner people. Luckily, I'm not alone in that. :)
That I would support. Characterisation is not from being all good or all bad, character comes from the grey, the hard decisions and the whys and outcomes.
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Netcat has never been a 'good guy'. But there is a lot of room between 'good guy' and 'total ratfink bastard'. She's in the middle ground, along with most of the other runners on Jackpoint.
Speaking of other runners, reading Storm Front has made me wonder if Puck perhaps still suffering from the backlash of his time in the Rose Garden. He's been drinking the crazy sauce, it seems, which isn't like him.
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Crazy Sauce is great on ramen, BTW.
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Crazy Sauce is great on ramen, BTW.
What Crazy Sauce may look like
(http://www.flexistentialist.org/gallery2/d/1321-2/DSCF0115.jpg)
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No, that's not crazy sauce.
http://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/192
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No, that's not crazy sauce.
http://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/192
Sriracha is the border between sauce and experience. There's definitely hotter out there, but it tends to leave your ass looking like the product of cleaning out the gutters with a garden hose.
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I have been trying to catch up on the clockwork plot line and am having some trouble tacking down what happens in which books, i think i have found everything except the description of the baby, the whole netcat slamo relationship still eludes me. any recommendations on where to search for that tid bit?
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Street Legends Supplemental, in the Slamm-O! profile has the description of the baby. As for Netcat and Slamm-O!'s relationship, that's been a thing through the books since SR4A came out. I think it is the fiction at the start of the matrix chapter? Anyways, in one of the books (forget which one right now) you actually have an example of what happens when a TM experiencing morning sickness is logged on via VR to a message board.
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borrowed a friends sr4a since i only have the sr4 book myself, some good stories in there thank you for the tip.
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Anything new on the feud, since SR5 came out?
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Not really, they still hate each other.
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Something will happen to make Clockwork and Netcat bury the hatchet. Shame it might be fatal to Slamm-O.
I hate how my brain works sometimes.
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Something will happen to make Clockwork and Netcat bury the hatchet. Shame it might be fatal to Slamm-O.
I hate how my brain works sometimes.
Well if Canray ever gets that Netcat shipping fiction done *hint* *hint* he can complete the Clockwork / Slamm-O yaoi fic 'Fifty Shades of Gray IC' . :p
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Well if Canray ever gets that Netcat shipping fiction done *hint* *hint* he can complete the Clockwork / Slamm-O yaoi fic 'Fifty Shades of Gray IC' . :p
Well, we're waiting on Bull more than me for the fiction.
And Jason has officially stated that Saeder-Klopp is to burn all "Fifty Shades of Shadowrun" ideas before they even form.
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Well if Canray ever gets that Netcat shipping fiction done *hint* *hint* he can complete the Clockwork / Slamm-O yaoi fic 'Fifty Shades of Gray IC' . :p
Well, we're waiting on Bull more than me for the fiction.
And Jason has officially stated that Saeder-Klopp is to burn all "Fifty Shades of Shadowrun" ideas before they even form.
That's too bad!