Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Whiskeyjack on <08-11-15/1919:42>
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So I'm playing around with building a chromed ork character who is a former (or current) organized crime assassin (debating taking Made Man and RiM). Part of his deal is being just as good of an infiltrator as he is a frontline combatant. And maybe can even talk his way through things a bit (I recognize I'm stretching viability of build resources here but bear with me).
As I was picking out my ware, starting with Wired Reflexes, REA Enhancers, and a smartlink (as one often does) I started thinking of what less-common ware might be fun or appropriate for this character. I sorted through the books and definitely settled on False Face for the opportunity to slip into a bathroom and come out looking like another person.
It also made me think of a session recently where our sam would have had a lot less of a problem fighting in a drug lab if she had an internal air tank to not be breathing toxic fumes, or another time when an infiltration had gone south when we were exiting and we were exposed to knockout gas. Air tank again would have been helpful again there.
This just made me wonder about what ware I might have been overlooking (not that the internal air tank isn't great). Anyway, just wondering what are your favorite "non-standard" ware items? Stuff that generally doesn’t make the first pass like initiative enhancement and muscle toner but that you try to fit in, or would like to in a particular build?
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Well a character I recently made for a tribal PbP game has a cyber arm that includes Snake Fingers and a Finger Lighter... the idea being that the arm is basically a mobile surgical kit with a high rating built-in med kit and razor claws.
Combine that with a character with magic and you've got a low end surgeon who can operate anywhere at the drop of a hat. Even knows the Sterilize spell to make sure the area and her claws are clean.
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Muscle Replacement, Cyberweaponry, and implanted Commlinks/Decks.
5th edition Muscle Replacement lives in such a weird spot because of Availability. It's cheap enough that you'd want it as Alpha but you can't because of availability. You can't get the max rating out of chargen, ect. ect. Lots of issues with it. But on the right character it's fantastic stuff.
Cyberweapons, or even good ole' smuggling compartments are a personal favorite. Even though they're total overkill most of the time.
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Sleep regulator- for more hours in the day.
Smuggling compartments on limbs- Yes they are tiny but its amazing how often you need to sneak some tiny object somewhere.
Chem glands (auto injectors can do most of the same work)- this was my favorite go to trick for so long back in 4th. There are so many interesting chemical combinations possible. It's very easy to cover odd angles with it. (Fake being dead made easy! Pop some instant extra mental attributes dice at the critical moment. Maybe you just need someone to forget the last 5 mins. All easily possible with the right load out.)
The Cyberknee mortar- not sure if this one actually is possible in 5th, but no one ever expects indirect firing Artillery.
Cybergills- Attack from the Sea (or the sewers)!!!
Sorry to get slightly off topic, but Made Man, is a Quality I really feel is really undervalued. It can do so many interesting things from the stand point of background and negotiation. Also organized crime offers the very best justification for the really wacky attack methods, Car Bombs, poisoned drinks, concrete shoes, poison lipstick call girls, all kinds of weird creative stuff.
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Cybergills or the bioware equivalent. People very frequently forget how much of Seattle - a lot of cities, really - has water somewhere nearby. While it may make for an unusual intrusion vector, it makes for a great emergency escape route.
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Cybergills or the bioware equivalent. People very frequently forget how much of Seattle - a lot of cities, really - has water somewhere nearby. While it may make for an unusual intrusion vector, it makes for a great emergency escape route.
Just make sure you don't go to deep with only cybergills... or you'll get "Narc'd" (Nitrogen Narcosis.) Down to about 160-170ft is generally safe but I got Narc'd at 147ft while doing a very heavy workload once... had to hold on the leg of the oil rig to not fall off with the supervisor yelling at me in my hat for like 5 minutes before it passed. They mention it in the Fluff about having an Internal Air Tank to carry helium so you can run heliox, but running pure O2 would really help cut down your in water decompression times also.
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Internal air tanks, skin pockets, and mnemonic enhancers are things I always consider for cybered characters. A cyber hold-out loaded with capsule rounds containing narcojet/dmso is also a nice, cheap tool. False face is awesome, but there are so many ways to add to your Disguise roll that it's only real utility is instant change situations. If you have a little time, you can hit your mental limit in many cases--for your character a Voice Modulator would make sense. It's lower in Essence than a False Face and instead of adding dice, it adds directly to the Threshold to see through your disguise. Plus, having that sort of volume control can be handy.
In terms of stuff from Chrome Flesh, tetrachromic vision is on the top of my "must take" list, but that's not an obscure pick.
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There are lots of items that are extremely nice to have in certain situations. The key for those sorts of enhancements is not paying too much for such a situational ability.
- I love mnemonic enhancers for adding dice directly to language as well as knowledge and memory checks. It lets very low investments in languages (or knowledge) become more useful, which can be handy in a lot of situations, and this is a very cheap enhancement.
- There is a bodyware whose name I forget right now (maybe platelet factory, but I’m not sure) that reduces damage of two or more boxes by one (two becomes one, three becomes two, etc.). It seems to work well for fairly tough NPC who can reduce damage enough with soak that it normally takes several hits to take them down, but I’ve not tried it on a PC (granted there are a lot of situations where it doesn’t help—you’d have a better idea in your game of how often you’d expect to take physical vs stun damage, etc.).
- Voice modulator at a low rating gives you some nice vocal options for cheap as well as a small bonus in certain situations.
- Olfactory booster can be very interesting if you have decent perception (“the room looks clear, but you can smell stress sweat and stale soy-caff breath ...”) but maybe not as much for your particular character.
- An internal comm link is very handy if you are sometimes walking into situations where your gear is going to be stripped away or your every move watched (combine with cyber eyes for the image link).
- I’m not sure if it is canon or not, but I assume that if you have ultrasonic sensor you can put it on passive mode to listen for motion detectors, which can be handy during infiltration, but again that may not be a good match for your particular character (and it is available as gear).
- Datajack, for plugging directly into gear when wireless absolutely must be off.
- A small hidden compartment of some sort that contains a standard hand-cuffs key and a small sharp blade, and put a point into escape artist (you may not be very good, but that is what you save edge for…).
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Vocal enhancers can give a nice range of role play options.
High frequency hearing, since the number of things that emit sound at those frequencies is rather astounding.
Digestive expansion is useful for being able to eat almost anything.
Olfactory boosters and sleep regulators are just fun and useful for a variety of things.
And I have a fondness for balancing tails. The art of them always looked impressive to me.
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Sleep Regulators are highly underrated.
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They are highly dependent on the game table, but sleep regulators would have been hugely valuable in my last two games. Not every table tracks every hour, and not everyone micromanages the lives of their characters, but if you do have a game like that then a sleep regulator is tremendous.
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I can say in the last couple runs the sleep regulators would have been pretty useful in my current game. But that's a couple runs where many more, they probably wouldn't be. I just took some Long Haul, which kind of sucked because you can't just Detox it, but it did the job.
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Sorry to get slightly off topic, but Made Man, is a Quality I really feel is really undervalued. It can do so many interesting things from the stand point of background and negotiation. Also organized crime offers the very best justification for the really wacky attack methods, Car Bombs, poisoned drinks, concrete shoes, poison lipstick call girls, all kinds of weird creative stuff.
Yeah I am really thinking from a perspective of "is the required time commitment worth dealing with vis a vis other runs." I used it in 4th for a Yak troll archer and found it very fun though.
I like your ideas a lot! I will probably give it another glance after mostly ruling it out. Now if only I can find the book it's in again...
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I like your ideas a lot! I will probably give it another glance after mostly ruling it out. Now if only I can find the book it's in again...
Run Faster P. 148
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I like your ideas a lot! I will probably give it another glance after mostly ruling it out. Now if only I can find the book it's in again...
Run Faster P. 148
Derp. I think I read past it at least 10 times. That's what you get for chargenning while sleep deprived!
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What do people think of Skillwires? I like the idea but in practice I can't think of myself wanting access to a ton of activesofts required to make them worth it, as most of the time I think I'd just want knowsofts and linguasofts which are covered with just a Skilljack, and maybe a set of hardwires for a secondary or tertiary combat skill at 6 or something, one that I have no desire ever to buy with karma.
Anyone done cool things with Skillwires? Anyone think MBW 2 is more worth it than Wored Reflexes 2 + REA Enhancers 3? Same average initiative, plus Skillwires, but you lose out on 3 REA for defense tests.
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Anyone think MBW 2 is more worth it than Wored Reflexes 2 + REA Enhancers 3?
Currently playing a rigger, so I'm kinda disappointed that MBW wasn't the upgrade it used to be.
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What do people think of Skillwires? I like the idea but in practice I can't think of myself wanting access to a ton of activesofts required to make them worth it, as most of the time I think I'd just want knowsofts and linguasofts which are covered with just a Skilljack, and maybe a set of hardwires for a secondary or tertiary combat skill at 6 or something, one that I have no desire ever to buy with karma.
Anyone done cool things with Skillwires? Anyone think MBW 2 is more worth it than Wored Reflexes 2 + REA Enhancers 3? Same average initiative, plus Skillwires, but you lose out on 3 REA for defense tests.
I love skillwires in theory and I'm stoked at the concept of Skillsoft networks. The costing remains the issue. The balance debate is understandable but it need to be considered differently. Your not going to use skills wires to get skills your ever going to run in comparison tests, your just looking for base success, and a the penalty of no edge should really make low rating skillwires much, much cheaper then they are.
MBW 2 is just to essence intensive to seriously consider in a starting game (and that laying aside the availability issue) , which would make it difficult to get anything but a very long running game. MBW 1 isn't a terrible option if you aren't looking for maximum possible effectiveness build. So in a Prime Run. game (Avail 15 starting) you could run Alpha MBW 1 along with biocomp for 2.1 and a paltry 48k and a 5 pt quality, which is 1/3 of Wired 2. You can make a little more effective given the wording of it is it doesn't stack with reaction enhancers, so you can still use Cerebellum boosters (which runs another 50k .3E).
If your ready to go into Cerebellum boosters you can get an extra +1 int, which totals to +2 defense (total 12), and +5 to init. Meaning that you can easily hit Init 15+1d6. Which is decent. No its not the 14+3d6 you could get from wired (Which runs you a cool 175k and 2.88E assuming biocomp). But mbw1 also only ran you 2.4 essence and 98k Which is basically half of what wired would. It also leaves you open to delta Mbw3 when you reach a point where such a thing is possible.
48k and 2.1E for +4 Init and skillwire 2 ain't bad honestly. In a non-prime game it only a little worse, 2.4 instead of 2.1 with non-alpha, and the biocomp quality. So 40k and 2.4 E for +4 init and skillwires 2.
There is no doubt from the combat stand point that 175k and 2.88 for 14 Defense and 14+3d6 is a better option. Which will have an average init 24.5 vs 18.5. But for a combat secondary 18.5 is respectable, and the price in terms of cash is fairly low; Essence wise it's still higher then I'd prefer but it adds a deep utility options in terms of skillwires.
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Sorry to get slightly off topic, but Made Man, is a Quality I really feel is really undervalued. It can do so many interesting things from the stand point of background and negotiation. Also organized crime offers the very best justification for the really wacky attack methods, Car Bombs, poisoned drinks, concrete shoes, poison lipstick call girls, all kinds of weird creative stuff.
Take that and Electronic Witness to cover your day job requirement
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Sorry to get slightly off topic, but Made Man, is a Quality I really feel is really undervalued. It can do so many interesting things from the stand point of background and negotiation. Also organized crime offers the very best justification for the really wacky attack methods, Car Bombs, poisoned drinks, concrete shoes, poison lipstick call girls, all kinds of weird creative stuff.
Take that and Electronic Witness to cover your day job requirement
What book is this in?
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There is a zero percent chance that any of my characters would willingly operate with someone with Electronic Witness and Day Job. (Ele. Witness is in Data Trails, by the way.) That combination risks a bullet behind the ear at many tables.
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Oh, that's the one where you're pretty much putting every job you do on youtube, isn't it?
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Oh, that's the one where you're pretty much putting every job you do on youtube, isn't it?
I don't recall anything that says you have to sell it whole cloth and unedited.
It's also one of the few situations where I might take an augmentation bundle. At that point, why not?
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E witness makes no-sense with Made Man imo. Why would you blog videos of you and your crew committing crimes?
Can you explain further what you mean?
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Sensors! P.446.
Handheld Housing 3 Capacity
Capacity 3 x 100 = 300 nuyen, Sensor Array Rating 3 =3000 nuyen, Sensor Functions 3, (Camera, Ultrasound, Motion Sensor)
Don't get snuck up on by the Invisible troll bug spirit vampire.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUKnfIsvxYo
Micro-cameras! Capacity 1, 100 nuyen. Threshold 3 + perception modifiers. Might let you know if someone is breaching your perimeter.
Agents! Have them use Matrix Perception, to follow you, as you get picked up by facial recognition, on the matrix, and try to cover your tracks.
RFID tags! Plant one on your Johnson! Don't do that Prisoners dilemma BS, without an edge!
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Sensor are indeed very under appreciated.
Given the radiation issues in some places you would think more characters would have giger counters.
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Sensor Array Rating 3 =3000 nuyen, Sensor Functions 3, (Camera, Ultrasound, Motion Sensor)
While it is up to eight functions per sensor array (and rating goes from 2-8), they stop short of saying 'only [rating] functions per sensor array'.
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p.445
Sensor array: This sensor package includes up to
eight functions listed under Sensor Functions.
Single sensor: This is a sensor that can do only one
function listed under Sensor Functions.
I understand this to mean, I could put up to 3 Sensor Functions, on a hand held device, that has a Max Sensor Rating of 3, and that has a capacity of 3.
P.417
Capacity: Some sensor packages and cyberware can be equipped with a
range of subsystems. A Capacity value is listed for these, indicating the
maximum amount of “slots” worth of accessories the item can hold.
If the Capacity is listed in brackets, it’s the cost of that subsystem or
accessory, or the number of slots that item takes up. Some cyberware
items with a Capacity cost can also be installed as standalone items
(taking up Essence) rather than subsystems (taking up Capacity);
if both costs are listed, only one applies, depending on whether you
installed it in another item or in yourself.
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Wait, I've seen this debate before. The fall apart point is that a hand held housing has a certain capacity that is smaller than what is needed for an array. The other part is whether capacity is interchangeable with other gear. I.e. can you stick an array in a helmet, or better yet can you stick it in a high rating cybereye?
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A Capacity value is listed for these, indicating the maximum amount of “slots” worth of accessories the item can hold.
Sensor Arrays are missing Capacity, only having [Capacity]. Even if you took this value, that would contradict the 'up to 8 functions' with a flat 6.
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Blaarggg... you're making me look it up...
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In the sensors table, it lists two housings (hand held and wall mounted) and two sensor categories (single and array).
An array takes up [6] capacity but only the maxed out wall housing is big enough capacity 1 to 6, 6 being the capacity needed.
The sensor housing table lists the maximum sensor RATING by size of the housing.
So you can have a hand held device that caps out at 3 capacity, which means 3 single sensors. Those sensors are in turn capped by the size of the housing limiting it to rating 3 sensors.
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The question then becomes 'does sensor [capacity] equate with other gear and augmentation [capacity]'?
"Helmets have Capacity 6 for being tricked out with accessories like trod nets and vision enhancements." P. 438
So can you stick a sensor array capacity [6] into a helmet capacity 6? Well, as an array, it would be considered an AV device, capping it at rating 2. That's ¥2000 for 8 functions including ultrasound. This is way cheaper than using standard AV mods to a helmet. The drawback is that the array is still capped at rating 2, which is the device rating which dictates the device limit which dictates your perception limit.
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So can you stick a sensor array capacity [6] into a helmet capacity 6? Well, as an array, it would be considered an AV device, capping it at rating 2. That's ¥2000 for 8 functions including ultrasound. This is way cheaper than using standard AV mods to a helmet. The drawback is that the array is still capped at rating 2, which is the device rating which dictates the device limit which dictates your perception limit.
pg 445 : "When you
use the sensor array for Perception Tests, you may use
your Electronic Warfare skill in place of your Perception
skill, and you may use the sensor’s Rating as your limit."
Note it says you may use Electronic Warfare / Sensor's Rating as your limit, not that you have to. So you are capped by highest Mental limit or Device Rating, and can use highest of Electronic Warfare and Perception plus Intuition for your dice pool.
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Note that cyberlimb sensors cap at rating 5 so that seems to be a better use than combat mods.
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I think it's in run and gun, I look for it when I'm back at home, but iirc helmets can take sensors in their capacity.
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I think it's in run and gun, I look for it when I'm back at home, but iirc helmets can take sensors in their capacity.
What about ballistic masks?
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What about ballistic masks?
I'd go with no right off hand. But I'm still not near my books, so nothing to back it up one way or another.
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Ok took a look my friends books, R&G pg 87 gives you a full list and capacity cost for various gadgets including sensors, core says helmets can take vision mods and trod nets and similar modifications, I've always gone with that included sensors but I guess that will be a GM call. Ballistic masks say they can take any modifications helmets can take so clearly my gut was wrong there. (They even have a capacity of 8 so go figure.)
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Sensors need to be placed in a housing or case of some sort, or built into another device.
You can put sensors in just about everything, and lots of people do.
If the intended housing has capacity (and you can line it up against an item on the list of housings), then everything should be good.
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This same discussion broke Michael Chandra.
Basically the last few posts in this thread are correct, Sensors by RAW will not go into a helmet because it does not say specifically anywhere that they can.
If you're interested you should have a look at the helmet I designed with a sensor suite for our table (we houseruled it as a reasonable thing to have a sensor suite in an advanced helmet).
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=21574.0
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I don't see any reason you can't get a motion sensor in a helmet. If you can put in all the visual sensors (Which by the rules you can), then most of the others seem reasonable to me. Giger counter would give me pause.
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Sorry to get slightly off topic, but Made Man, is a Quality I really feel is really undervalued. It can do so many interesting things from the stand point of background and negotiation. Also organized crime offers the very best justification for the really wacky attack methods, Car Bombs, poisoned drinks, concrete shoes, poison lipstick call girls, all kinds of weird creative stuff.
Take that and Electronic Witness to cover your day job requirement
Shortly thereafter your Don will take care of your "living requirement" for spreading the family's business all over the 'Net. Not a good trade off to get whacked because you couldn't keep your recording devices turned off while doing your job!!!
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Sorry to get slightly off topic, but Made Man, is a Quality I really feel is really undervalued. It can do so many interesting things from the stand point of background and negotiation. Also organized crime offers the very best justification for the really wacky attack methods, Car Bombs, poisoned drinks, concrete shoes, poison lipstick call girls, all kinds of weird creative stuff.
Take that and Electronic Witness to cover your day job requirement
Shortly thereafter your Don will take care of your "living requirement" for spreading the family's business all over the 'Net. Not a good trade off to get whacked because you couldn't keep your recording devices turned off while doing your job!!!
Convince him to sell it as a reality trid!
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There is a zero percent chance that any of my characters would willingly operate with someone with Electronic Witness and Day Job. (Ele. Witness is in Data Trails, by the way.) That combination risks a bullet behind the ear at many tables.
except you wouldnt know
Sorry to get slightly off topic, but Made Man, is a Quality I really feel is really undervalued. It can do so many interesting things from the stand point of background and negotiation. Also organized crime offers the very best justification for the really wacky attack methods, Car Bombs, poisoned drinks, concrete shoes, poison lipstick call girls, all kinds of weird creative stuff.
Take that and Electronic Witness to cover your day job requirement
Shortly thereafter your Don will take care of your "living requirement" for spreading the family's business all over the 'Net. Not a good trade off to get whacked because you couldn't keep your recording devices turned off while doing your job!!!
Convince him to sell it as a reality trid!
Except if you use Electronic witness and made man the records would go to the Don to find out what you do all day kinda surprised the corps dont do this already on their wage slaves as part of their security survellince
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Except if you use Electronic witness and made man the records would go to the Don to find out what you do all day kinda surprised the corps dont do this already on their wage slaves as part of their security survellince
They probably do. Company uniform for anybody sensitive comes standard with a Response Interface Gear (RIG) [R&G85]. ¥2500 plus the cost of the uniform and helmet is a small price to pay for security, am I right? Full sim-suite and monitoring system. "It allows records of each soldier's actions and situations to be passed up the chain of command, as well as accessing the user's natural senses for use as sensor channels." Just substitute 'worker' for 'soldier'.
Sure, the company looks a little odd with everybody wandering around with helmets on, it also really reinforces the 'slave' part of 'wage-slave'.
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I don't think a lot of corps would care to that level. If most of your workforce lives in your arcology you already know everything going on with them even without using that restrictive of a system. That said I could see it a lot easier with Japanacorps or Wuxing where there are very different cultural ideas of individuality versus the "Western" corps.
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Yeah sorry, it was understood in my head (but I didn't write it out), that this would apply to any sort of field operatives.
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I note that my phone autocorrects "arcology" to "sexologist." Welp.
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I was a *tad* curious about that.
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I missed that autocorrectiong. :'(
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In the sensors table, it lists two housings (hand held and wall mounted) and two sensor categories (single and array).
An array takes up [6] capacity but only the maxed out wall housing is big enough capacity 1 to 6, 6 being the capacity needed.
The sensor housing table lists the maximum sensor RATING by size of the housing.
So you can have a hand held device that caps out at 3 capacity, which means 3 single sensors. Those sensors are in turn capped by the size of the housing limiting it to rating 3 sensors.
P.446 A Large drone, cyberlimb 5, Max Sensor Functions
Motorcycle 6, Max Sensor Functions
Vehicle (larger than a motorcycle) 7, Max Sensor Functions
By this logic, drone's could not have sensor arrays.
What is insinuated is: that you can have a sensor array on a drone, or something small.
Example: P. 127 "Bounty Hunter", "sensor array (Rating 3) (handheld),"
P. 445 "Most vehicles and drones come factory-equipped with
a sensor array (at a rating listed with their stats)."
What I understand is: a single sensor, is a single sensor.
and a "sensor array", is more than one sensor in a single device. Like infrared goggles that also have low light vision. 2 sensor functions.
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I hardly see any chromed runners with Toxin Extractors and Tracheal Filters.
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it's tragic but no one uses poison these days. Maybe that will change :)
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The nephritic screen is actually a very fine piece of ware in that regard. Especially since it allows you to take drugs with relative impunity (even if their duration is shortened significantly)
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I hardly see any chromed runners with Toxin Extractors and Tracheal Filters.
I think part of that is because taking an air tank and switching over to stored air is usually better and a more broad solution to more problems.
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I hardly see any chromed runners with Toxin Extractors and Tracheal Filters.
I think part of that is because taking an air tank and switching over to stored air is usually better and a more broad solution to more problems.
My (admittedly somewhat paranoid) main Missions character has an air tank and will be picking up an anti-tox nanite hive once it becomes legal. Reducing a toxin's power >> adding dice to your Toxin Resistance Test. His autoinjector includes antidotes to narcojet and neuro-stun as well.
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What? No antitox to Pepper Punch? The stuff is so cheap that capsule round with it are cheaper than normal ammo, not to mention grenades.
Which incidentally brings this full circle for me: Pepper Punch seems to be very underrated considering its legal even in grenade form...
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The 5 slots are antidotes to neuro-stun/narcojet/pepper punch, a trauma patch, and a stim patch. ;) He's gotten maced enough to learn.
But to the main point of the thread, the soft nanohive seems like it could be a pretty potent addition for lots of folks.
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The big question is how does it interact with CFD?
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Extremely well. 9 out of 10 rogue AI fragments approve ;)
For a player CFD shouldn't be a real concern: If your GM wants you get it.
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Yeah that's fair. I also wasn't sure if soft nanites were susceptible since they're effectively engineered living cells and not tiny robots.
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I hardly see any chromed runners with Toxin Extractors and Tracheal Filters.
No point when you can get chemical protection as an armor add on a dry suit that doesnt encumber you with a gas mask on a ballistic mask/helmet that is moddified to fit the dry suit seemlessly making it a chemical seal (and immune to inhalation vector toxins and DMSO laced poisons) or as an added precaution that sealed ortho skin makes you immune to DMSO
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I hardly see any chromed runners with Toxin Extractors and Tracheal Filters.
No point when you can get chemical protection as an armor add on a dry suit that doesnt encumber you with a gas mask on a ballistic mask/helmet that is moddified to fit the dry suit seemlessly making it a chemical seal (and immune to inhalation vector toxins and DMSO laced poisons) or as an added precaution that sealed ortho skin makes you immune to DMSO
You ever wore a drysuit? To say that they aren't encumbering is a bit of a stretch... sure it's not that bad without having a 7mm wetsuit on underneath but your fine motor skills had better take a serious hit. Underwater tools don't have small or complex mechanisms for operations... they are all big triggers & switches. Use Object would need to be moved from Simple Action to a Complex Action.