[LionofPerth]

I have to go with ask your DM about it, That at the end of the day, it's very much about the game you're going to be in and what the expectation, requirements, nature of that game are.

If you're playing in what I call a deep Shadows type of game, any real SIN is a liability in my mind. Especially a Criminal one. On the other hand, a very suits and boardrooms level game, may require this, Corp Limited to Corp Born, level of SIN as a minimum to get into some areas.

How I plan to run my world. having a SIN is not just something that you can easily find yourself in. That just being born in some places is enough to you one. Been in an accident and called for medical help? There's another way of earning one. That on a level, it's important for the megacorps to keep a pool in a local population both hostile to Runners and interested in Running against other megacorps. Giving out SINs and making sure that the local slums are not too.... dangerous, are in fact managed and basic minimum services provided a means of buying loyalty. There might not be enough for everyone, but it's not that bleak.

I find the idea that this particular SIN is worth the 25 Karma isn't entirely fair, at least if you can die by taking 25 Karma in other NQ's. On the same side, making a character allergic to some of the very common items out there, to me with my experience of DM's, isn't that setting up character for failure? For a new character? That you're gaming the system for an initial boost, by making it this specific path, he or she can't get you on other paths.

I'd add that there's something a lot of people forget about Shadowrun from my position. You need a SIN for a basic education. That means as a basic, if your character can read, write, think in coherent, correct English, German, Japanese, they will have a National level SIN at a minimum. If you went to a university, college, definitely. If that school was run by a megacorp, that might even be a Corp Limited SIN. Been in a hospital? Yeap, you've got one.

That's the short version of what I think, without getting into the ists and isms I need to really explain everything. At least, if you can't accept a capitalist system would do anything and everything to gain the best possible outcome, including grooming potential Runners, we're playing two very different games.

If anything, the SIN is a background quality, there's others in there, like Consumate Professional, Social Stress etc, that make for much better role playing ones. So if you want your background to come back and bite hard, this is a NQ to take. If you're not willing to have everything on a gamble, there's other, more thematic options.

[Novocrane]

In fact, taking Corporate Born SIN really doesn't flesh out your character much at all. You basically have no negatives except you came from a bad place (in the eyes of the Shadow Community). At least if you have a bunch of negative qualities like an addiction, social stress, etc, then it makes your character a little more interesting. At the very least it gives you ideas for your character.

Yeah ... I don't agree with that. Unless you specifically avoid filling in your back-story beyond "I was born with a corporate SIN", there will be more that can be used against you - issues that should come from writing background for your character, coupled with the simple fact of winning the birthright lottery.
Even if you write nothing outlining that, one specific megacorp has your biometric data and likely has frozen samples. (rather than easier-to-store chemically preserved samples) That's a pretty big drawback by itself, and can prove to be worse when under the thumb of an MC, or even just a corpborn executive with access to a mage. Then there's this bit;

Files in the Global SIN Registry can confirm she has a valid SIN, but do not contain any additional information

Depending on how you view unusually empty (but completely valid) SIN, that may simply be a quirk and dead end, or a reason to think "mega-corporation!" and take it before the corporate court as a potential case of inter-corporate espionage. That would simply drill a standard PC into the ground with unwanted attention.

It's a "mess up and you're likely to die" NQ

And this is the most direct expression of what I disagree with - unless anyone else with 25k of NQs is also looking at "mess up and you're likely to die".

[LionofPerth]

Even if you write nothing outlining that, one specific megacorp has your biometric data and likely has frozen samples. (rather than easier-to-store chemically preserved samples) That's a pretty big drawback by itself, and can prove to be worse when under the thumb of an MC, or even just a corpborn executive with access to a mage. Then there's this bit;

Files in the Global SIN Registry can confirm she has a valid SIN, but do not contain any additional information

Depending on how you view unusually empty (but completely valid) SIN, that may simply be a quirk and dead end, or a reason to think "mega-corporation!" and take it before the corporate court as a potential case of inter-corporate espionage. That would simply drill a standard PC into the ground with unwanted attention.

That's one thing I don't particularly like about the wording of it. I mean it goes against everything else they've said about SINs and how they work, on top of it being, on a whole, bad database design.

If you think about what this means, is that you have multiple grades of people, from the 'legal' at the national level, through to the corp recognised, to the..... nominally unclaimed but are in fact corp heavyweights? Wouldn't it make more sense to have people as known for being in a corp and out of bounds for others? To hide all data, apart from a valid SIN, doesn't that just raise more questions? If you're not seeing anything except they're valid people, you're damn well going to do some digging. Which I would argue is what the corps do not want on a whole.

Add to that, there's a whole, special kinda heat that the corps can bring if you're a fully corp born citizen, that a lot of people don't have any inclining of. The Runner community is actually quite forgiving, it's the corps who really take things personally.

[8-bit]

In fact, taking Corporate Born SIN really doesn't flesh out your character much at all. You basically have no negatives except you came from a bad place (in the eyes of the Shadow Community). At least if you have a bunch of negative qualities like an addiction, social stress, etc, then it makes your character a little more interesting. At the very least it gives you ideas for your character.

Yeah ... I don't agree with that. Unless you specifically avoid filling in your back-story beyond "I was born with a corporate SIN", there will be more that can be used against you - issues that should come from writing background for your character, coupled with the simple fact of winning the birthright lottery.
Even if you write nothing outlining that, one specific megacorp has your biometric data and likely has frozen samples. (rather than easier-to-store chemically preserved samples) That's a pretty big drawback by itself, and can prove to be worse when under the thumb of an MC, or even just a corpborn executive with access to a mage. Then there's this bit;

Files in the Global SIN Registry can confirm she has a valid SIN, but do not contain any additional information

Depending on how you view unusually empty (but completely valid) SIN, that may simply be a quirk and dead end, or a reason to think "mega-corporation!" and take it before the corporate court as a potential case of inter-corporate espionage. That would simply drill a standard PC into the ground with unwanted attention.

It's a "mess up and you're likely to die" NQ

And this is the most direct expression of what I disagree with - unless anyone else with 25k of NQs is also looking at "mess up and you're likely to die".

This is honestly the exact same situation as having a National SIN, which is worth 5 Karma. You are in the records, one country has your biometrics, and they have the exact same thing as a National SIN, except for maybe ready access to a mage. Oh, and according to the book, "The nation in the player character’s background has the character’s biometric data (DNA, fingerprints, retinal scans) on file, and that biometric data is shared with law enforcement agencies through the Global SIN Registry. This makes it much easier to track a character should a job go sideways. Also, nations typically sell the personal information tied to the character’s SIN to corporations."

So, instead of having one super big megacorp with your SIN, now you have several megacorps with your SIN. Sure, it might be harmless when they first get it, as all they do is spam you, but if they catch your face, they can verify it to a SIN in their records and bring a load of trouble upon your head. So, in my mind, that one is even worse than a normal SIN, since a National SIN is much easier to find and connect to. The only thing that is less dangerous is your "background", which I agree should be explained and not "I was born into a Megacorp."

Also, they find your SIN connected to a crime against a megacorp? Said Megacorp goes to the nation you come from, accuses them of messing with them by sending a "spy" (aka you) to undermine their totally (legal) operations. Now, you have a megacorp against you, a nation against you, and probably no friends in the Shadow Community willing to risk their lives to try and hide you, since you got caught.

[Novocrane]

Also, they find your SIN connected to a crime against a megacorp? Said Megacorp goes to the nation you come from, accuses them of messing with them by sending a "spy" (aka you) to undermine their totally (legal) operations. Now, you have a megacorp against you, a nation against you, and probably no friends in the Shadow Community willing to risk their lives to try and hide you, since you got caught.

I highly doubt you would be burnt by everyone, and the relative expense:reward ratio for catching a national SINner isn't assumed to skew in favour of profit. There will be opportunistic attempts and you'll have to lay low for a while, but CBs will face worse.

Generalised from the perspective of corporate executives on interfering with recognised rogue (aka Shadowrunning) SINners - "Is the juice worth the squeeze?"
Criminal? "What crime are we pinning on them?"
National? "Why?"
Limited? "Maybe."
Corporate? "Do it. Now."

On the topic of falling victim to facial recognition; that's part of the job for shadowrunners. Working conditions insist that you cover up or otherwise make it most difficult to find you in the time between pulling off a job and handing over whatever it is you stole - the hot spot of being valuable to law enforcement.

If you're not seeing anything except they're valid people, you're damn well going to do some digging.

Where do you think you're going to do that? How? It's not going to be through the GSR.

[LionofPerth]

If you're not seeing anything except they're valid people, you're damn well going to do some digging.

Where do you think you're going to do that? How? It's not going to be through the GSR.

No, but you can still request it from other sources which might give you information. So, rather than going direct to the GSR, going through your company, going through a national database etc.

There's also the made up charges if not being held on suspicion, holding them for maximum possible time. Deliberately delaying the processing of paper work. Believe me, there's plenty that can be done to slow things down and just wait until someone cracks. There's just being an investigative detective for a moment, if you've got any sort of key, thing with an address, follow it up, Check it out, get a warrant, depending on the area, you might not even need a warrant. Due cause can be a very slippery slope.

Even as basic data trail can be sufficient information to follow up and see what they are, who they are.

Okay in Shadowrun the legality of such a thing is certainly harder to justify with the territorial borders, but still does apply to a certain degree. If a company's agreement with Lone Star or Knight Errant mean that they can investigate inside corporate territory, hope you've not done anything really suspicious.

[8-bit]

Okay in Shadowrun the legality of such a thing is certainly harder to justify with the territorial borders, but still does apply to a certain degree. If a company's agreement with Lone Star or Knight Errant mean that they can investigate inside corporate territory, hope you've not done anything really suspicious.

Don't forget the fact that most police forces are willing to sacrifice people as a scapegoat for good publicity. Or, if a company wants to bust someone, they can probably convince all the territorial borders law enforcement agency to work with them in return for good publicity. Or, as a final measure, possibly draw up incriminating evidence or go searching without a warrant; if they get caught, "The guy has a criminal SIN, just checking for anything suspicious." and they get off with little less than a reprimand.

[LionofPerth]

Okay in Shadowrun the legality of such a thing is certainly harder to justify with the territorial borders, but still does apply to a certain degree. If a company's agreement with Lone Star or Knight Errant mean that they can investigate inside corporate territory, hope you've not done anything really suspicious.

Don't forget the fact that most police forces are willing to sacrifice people as a scapegoat for good publicity. Or, if a company wants to bust someone, they can probably convince all the territorial borders law enforcement agency to work with them in return for good publicity. Or, as a final measure, possibly draw up incriminating evidence or go searching without a warrant; if they get caught, "The guy has a criminal SIN, just checking for anything suspicious." and they get off with little less than a reprimand.

Well, it's even easier than that at the end of the day. This person is presenting a valid SIN, we can't verify anything about it, I'd suspect it was fake or stolen, therefore we need to investigate for fraud, murder, etc. That gives them time to hold a person, put the word out and if the corp decides to not get involved. Sucks to be you.

[8-bit]

Well, it's even easier than that at the end of the day. This person is presenting a valid SIN, we can't verify anything about it, I'd suspect it was fake or stolen, therefore we need to investigate for fraud, murder, etc. That gives them time to hold a person, put the word out and if the corp decides to not get involved. Sucks to be you.

Which is why the corps always have the upper hand. Criminal SIN is seriously dangerous to have, so just pray the GM doesn't have something bad happen near your area and try not to set off any flags.

[Novocrane]

This person is presenting a valid SIN, we can't verify anything about it, I'd suspect it was fake or stolen, therefore we need to investigate for fraud, murder, etc.

Not "we can't verify anything about it", because the way you're presenting that would be silly and counter-productive for CB SINs. That's the Erased Quality.

It's equivalent to everything coming up "classified", "insufficient access" or something that otherwise conveys "sure, you can read this, as soon as the censors have gone over it with a black marker in entirety."

You don't try to play in the legal grey areas with this as a smart street level law enforcement officer - not when you're clearly out of your depth and could potentially ruin your career. (and it could - how many civilian CB SINs do you think get checked versus runner CB SINs? Not many on either side, but there are a lot more civ CBs out there) You give it to your superior, and let it go up the hierarchy. Maybe all the way to the CC. Maybe orders come back down, too.

That's assuming you even met the CB in person, rather than scanning samples at the scene of a crime for a match, and getting "valid SIN, no further information accessible". Again, you pass it upwards.

[LionofPerth]

As a general rule, if you read something redacted, like I've done a few occasions over the year, actual, legitimate academic research into fields of interest, you have to wonder why it's been redacted and what they were trying to protect. If sufficient information is removed from general access, I would challenge that it could mean a fraudulent SIN just as a much as a Corp Born SIN.

Here's the thing in my mind, either the Corp Born SIN is marked as being a full corporate citizen and needs to be treated as such, otherwise bad stuff happens to your company or country, or it's being protected by anonymity. If it's being protected by anonymity, the best example I can give is reading the old Soviet speeches, the like. If you're familiar with the language, it makes a lot of sense, you know what is being said, not what the words usually mean. There's a double meaning, euphemism to what they say and without the knowledge to translate it, you can't really understand it.

It would follow that police and security service would be able to recognise a Corp Born SIN due to how it's been redacted, censored. If the above is the case, then surely doesn't it make sense to try and copy these values, patterns, so as not to arouse suspicion, but to try and protect yourself from being picked up on mismatches?

Therefore, I do have to suggest that any sufficiently vague SIN, would in fact be picked up and analysed, if there's sufficient information blocked, that person pulled in regardless of whether it's a fake or real SIN.

At least biometrics and employment needs to be clear. The idea that simply being Corp Born means that information on your SIN is limited is a little silly, if you look at its functionality.

Certainly, before the complaints, current assignments, work history, performance reviews, promotions, all that would and should be hidden, but basic biometric identification, things that they can't hide? I can't see how hiding that and not expecting to be pulled in is reasonable. All it takes is one beat cop who forces the issue and you're seeing the inside of a cell.

[Novocrane]

If sufficient information is removed from general access, I would challenge that it could mean a fraudulent SIN just as a much as a Corp Born SIN.

I disagree. Fake SINs will have data - name, age, nationality, and sex at a minimum. Core p363 for reference.

Here's the thing in my mind, either the Corp Born SIN is marked as being a full corporate citizen and needs to be treated as such, otherwise bad stuff happens to your company or country, or it's being protected by anonymity

And in my mind, these two things are not mutually exclusive.

Think of it as a mix of fictitious anonymous US governmental department authority, along with a healthy dash of The Usual Suspects.

The D.A. came down here last night ready to arraign before they even moved him to county. Kint's lawyer comes in and five minutes later, the D.A. comes out looking like he'd been bitch-slapped by the boogey man. They took his statement and cut him a deal.

Did they charge him with anything?

Weapons. Misdemeanor two.

What the f%& is that?

I give the D.A. credit for getting that much to stick. This whole thing has turned political. The Mayor was here - the chief - the Governor called this morning, for Christ's sake. This guy is protected - from up on high by the prince of f&^#ing darkness.

That's what can be expected after you push a non-shadowrunner with a corporate born SIN.

So, again, as a law enforcement officer with a modicum intelligence ... you recognise your superiors might not have your back.

[LionofPerth]

While they might hold that information, what else does it have or not have?

We're told that the SIN has a lot of information, including things like job history, licences, medical and education history and the like. There's pieces of information that we don't have a concept of that the SIN would hold as a basic. Not just things like fingerprints, retinal patterns, any sort of unique biological identifier, birthmarks etc.  To say that just because it contains 'name, age, nationality and sex' and that's all it transmits is a little silly.

Especially for health, if you're highly allergic, diabetic, sensory impaired, that type of information in an integrated network would be truly useful and would be 'public' to those with access, which I would suggest include law enforcement, emergency first responders. If you're going to argue that information is being withheld, you're missing perhaps the worst, most depressing points of the world.

As smart as people are, if they're suspicious, they're suspicious and on a whole will act on it. If you have such a clear pattern of what a Corp Born SIN looks like, it will get copied, more accurately attempted to get copied. If the real thing gets mistaken as a fake, say hello art world, they will get pulled in and they will get noticed. Sure, there's going to be some short term trouble for the officer in question. Sure, lawyers are going to scream murder, civil rights, discrimination and 'profiling', but there was grounds for suspicion and the officer either got permission to act on, or acted on in their own right.

The system openly discusses racism, this is in effect, a product of that world.

Short of a written charter from either Lone Star or Knight Errant, a corporate code of ethics/legal code or a national law with provisions for corporate legal extraterritoriality we're left with logic and implication. To say that a beat cop who sees what is in effect, two different licence plates on a car and does not investigate or report, is foolish. In Shadowrun's world, at least on an ideal level, it would be seen as gross incompetence, negligence and grounds for immediate dismissal. In a world of needing a job and end net worth effectively defined by that job, you would do anything to defend that job. Including what I would suggest, is raising the odd bit of trouble, if important biometric or identifying information is either missing, concealed or redacted, it warrants inspection. Verification before trust, any trust.

Especially if you really want to play the card that the SIN makes you a legal person. If they mark your status as a legal citizen, it has to be you that uses it. It has to be yours that you advertise. If anything is mismatched, it should be immediately investigated to determine your legal status. If you're at all familiar with authoritarian states, ideological fascist models of government, you'd appreciate just strict these systems can be. Add onto that fifty years of big data, analytics. You guys really don't know how bad it is.