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Megacorp Armies, Extraterritoriality, & The Police

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Crimsondude

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« Reply #15 on: <12-11-11/1535:17> »
Sea-Tac is 16 miles from downtown Seattle. I don't think getting buzzed by transglobal flights is a real problem.


From Corporate Shadowfiles:
  • Ares: Light Regiment
  • Aztechnology: Regiment or larger
  • Fuchi: Company
  • MCT: Company
  • S-K: Batallion
Ares' military may be a light regiment, but it also uses KE as a military force to back that force up, e.g., holding the lines in Chicago and Silicon Valley. It's also hard to define what exactly constitutes its military given the size and functions of Ares Arms (though its official military is one part of Ares Arms Military Systems Division).

Aztlan puts the size of Aztechnology's military at 175,000, and Aztlan's at 75,000. Those numbers are both certainly higher now considering that there are 275,000 uniformed servicemen in the UCAS military, and it's at best the third largest in North America behind CAS and Aztlan/Aztechnology.

In CS, Yamatetsu (now Evo) had no military, and didn't participate in Desert Wars. However, in Aztlan it had at least one carrier group. Yamatetsu Naval Technologies is their military, and so it's probably fairly large.

Renraku doesn't have one, but its security forces, specifically the Red Samurai, are military-trained.

S-K has a small standing military unit, but it rotates all of its security forces through there.

Shiawase got Fuchi's military assets when Korin Yamana joined up.

I doubt Horizon has one. They practically have the PSF at their disposal.


It's a very nebulous thing for various reasons. Though I can very much appreciate why people would be interested. Anyway, the info's probably been updated some more, but this is off the top of my head.
« Last Edit: <12-11-11/1550:44> by James Meiers »

CanRay

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« Reply #16 on: <12-11-11/1545:08> »
Big enough to be effective, small enough to be cost effective.  :P

And secret enough that you'll probably never know.  That secretary pool over there?  Yeah, SpecOps team.  Those freighter crews?  Navy crewmen for Subs that are hidden away.  Those cargo pilots?  Fighter pilots who practice in Sim while the cargo plane is on autopilot.
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CitizenJoe

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« Reply #17 on: <12-11-11/1559:45> »
Sea-Tac is 16 miles from downtown Seattle. I don't think getting buzzed by transglobal flights is a real problem.
The 'floor' of the sectional wedge at the Arcology is 1800 feet (540 meters).  The Arcology is 969 meters tall. Checking the Instrument approach for runway 16 L (the long one) the descent angle etc. put inbound at about 765 meters when passing the Arcology.  The flight path is actually about 2 kilometers to the east, but still, you're coming in semi ballistic, that means you don't really have fuel for messing around.  If your vector was off slightly inbound you could easily lawn dart the arcology.

Crimsondude

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« Reply #18 on: <12-11-11/1604:41> »
Yeah, I would assume that the FAA would take a kilometer-tall building into account, especially since the SO/SB runways probably don't exist IRL.

I mean, when the suborbital carrying a Corporate Court justice from Neo-Tokyo "crashed" in Blood in the Boardroom, it crashed in the Redmond Barrens.
« Last Edit: <12-11-11/1609:25> by James Meiers »

Mirikon

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« Reply #19 on: <12-11-11/1605:16> »
Sea-Tac is 16 miles from downtown Seattle. I don't think getting buzzed by transglobal flights is a real problem.
The 'floor' of the sectional wedge at the Arcology is 1800 feet (540 meters).  The Arcology is 969 meters tall. Checking the Instrument approach for runway 16 L (the long one) the descent angle etc. put inbound at about 765 meters when passing the Arcology.  The flight path is actually about 2 kilometers to the east, but still, you're coming in semi ballistic, that means you don't really have fuel for messing around.  If your vector was off slightly inbound you could easily lawn dart the arcology.

Sounds like an excellent way to touch off the eventual El Infierno-style rampage that Seattle is setting itself up for. Love how people don't learn from others' mistakes.
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Crimsondude

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« Reply #20 on: <12-11-11/1610:14> »
You mean that you can't effectively wall in a dozen cities? Yeah, no kidding.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #21 on: <12-12-11/1836:00> »
From Corporate Shadowfiles:
  • Ares: Light Regiment
  • Aztechnology: Regiment or larger
  • Fuchi: Company
  • MCT: Company
  • S-K: Batallion
Big enough to be effective, small enough to be cost effective.  :P

And secret enough that you'll probably never know.  That secretary pool over there?  Yeah, SpecOps team.  Those freighter crews?  Navy crewmen for Subs that are hidden away.  Those cargo pilots?  Fighter pilots who practice in Sim while the cargo plane is on autopilot.

Yes and no.  Consider Yamatetsu/Evo; how big is a Carrier Strike Group?  Quoting from that paragon of information ...

Quote from: Wikipedia
A carrier strike group (CSG) is an operational formation of the United States Navy. It is composed of roughly 7,500 personnel, an aircraft carrier, at least one cruiser, a destroyer squadron of at least two destroyers and/or frigates,[1] and a carrier air wing of 65 to 70 aircraft. A carrier strike group also, on occasion, includes submarines, attached logistics ships and a supply ship.

7500 people, with more being possible.  That's regiment-plus level -- and I can't imagine one of the ten largest powerhouses in the world having that minimal amount of force projection for its shipping, &c.  To give you an idea, the current (late 2011) total personnel count in the US Armed Forces -- second largest in the world -- is 2¼ million people.  A lot of those are in support positions; I vaguely remember one comment that said it took 20 support people to keep one soldier in the field.  Using that as a benchmark -- and yes, that could be completely wrong -- that'd be 107,000 people on the field/seas/air.  No, the corps aren't going to have that size, but consider the Balkanization the world has undergone, and the amount of power the corporations represent -- and thus what they have to protect.

I grant you that Aztechnology is probably going to have the largest standing army among the corps, just because a) it's always at war, and b) it has Aztlan's armed forces to draw from and trade into, but I think -- have always thought -- that the military sizes in the 'Corporate' books were massive underestimations.  5,000 men to put into the field against someone in SE Asia who's doing some Very Bad Things to you and who has 15,000?  Can you imagine Fuchi or MCT having only 250 soldiers??

Yes, they have security forces.  Yes, in a pinch, they can always pull from the one in 200 corporate citizens who wear a badge and carry a gun.  Yes, they can hire mercenaries -- but now you're dealing with the size of the merc outfits.  (Fortunately for my peace of mind, the SR writers tend to view mercs the way David Drake does -- and the way I like to think of them.)  How big is MET2000, or Tsunami, or 10,000 Daggers, or Combat, Inc?  How big is, say, Picador's unit?  You can bet that she's coming to the party with everything she has ... but is that anything over 150 people?   That's good for protecting a couple of villages or a small town, but your corporation has a lot more at stake than that ...

Consider also the fact that all of the Big 10 -- with the possible exception of Horizon -- are nuclear powers.  Ares and SK (at the very least) utilize terminal reentry weapons, i.e. Thor shots.  Both of these weapons are purely military in use (so yes, you could consider Danchekker having been taken out in a military operation), and I just can't see a corporation with at most 1500 people under military arms as being capable of dropping the hammer like that.

Last, remember the Ensenada Strike -- the Corporate Court pulled from all the other AAA militaries.  I again can't imagine Fuchi saying, 'Uhhh, sure, you can have half our military for this...'

I don't know.  I'd personally put the total personnel in all branches of the corporate militaries to be in at least the tens of thousands each, up to 75-100k.  If Aztechnology has the biggest at 175k+, then a 'big force' corporation such as Ares or Saeder-Krupp should have 100k, while a 'small force' such as Evo or Horizon should probably run 50k or so.  Again, that's among all the branches -- but if you functionally restrict that to two sections, Navy and Marines, each of whom have air support and at least one of which feels no restriction in going 3000km away from the nearest seashore, you have some pretty hefty forces.
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Crimsondude

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« Reply #22 on: <12-12-11/1844:51> »
Maybe the personnel in the Desert Wars armies are under the Entertainment Division.

CanRay

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« Reply #23 on: <12-12-11/1845:43> »
Maybe the personnel in the Desert Wars armies are under the Entertainment Division.
In that case, Horizon is a sure-winner next year!
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Crash_00

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« Reply #24 on: <12-12-11/1930:36> »
I'm glad I'm not the only one that looked at those numbers and thought there's no damn way. Just looking at a company like Blackwater and its employee pool then comparing what it does to what the AAA's tend to do should be enough to realize the numbers are significantly off.


JustADude

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« Reply #25 on: <12-12-11/1954:56> »
I'm glad I'm not the only one that looked at those numbers and thought there's no damn way. Just looking at a company like Blackwater and its employee pool then comparing what it does to what the AAA's tend to do should be enough to realize the numbers are significantly off.

Crash, my friend, since when are any of the military-related numbers in this game ever ON?

That said, though, I might consider "Company" or "Battalion" as a good estimate for how many soldiers they have at a single installation.
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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #26 on: <12-12-11/2003:06> »
I will point out again that corporations can get away with having a deceptively small standing military, for two reasons -- 'support personnel' don't have to be counted as 'military', nor do 'security forces'.  If you're Saeder-Krupp and you have 35,000 men and women in Europe walking around with weapons, are they all military?  Hell, no.  32,500 of them can be reported as 'security forces', and another 300 are going to be reassigned to 'exploratory research' or some damn thing -- mages, in other words.  But if the ball drops, and all of a sudden S-K needs to get people to the Balkans in two days to stop the next Islamic Jihad, you can bet that Joe Dirt over there mopping the floor is going to be going through a crash course in when to shoot at shadowrunners, because those 35,000 men are going to be trading their SMGs for battle rifles and suiting up to kick some serious ass.

But that still means that S-K is going to report their European branch as having a military with only 2,200 effectives.
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CanRay

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« Reply #27 on: <12-12-11/2106:52> »
Joe:  "So dis whatchamacallit..."
Security Chief:  "Sub-Machine Gun."
Joe:  "Yeah, which end does the milk come out of."
SC:  "Can't complain, boss will eat me.  Can't complain, boss will eat me..."
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CitizenJoe

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« Reply #28 on: <12-12-11/2114:59> »
EVERY employee of Lone Star is trained with a handgun. 

Crash_00

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« Reply #29 on: <12-12-11/2120:54> »
Given how common violence is in the world, I'm suprised that handgun training isn't part of your everyday schooling in SR. After all, you've gotta train the kids how to not hurt themselves when they find a gun lying in the street every other day.