[Mason]

The issue here is some people are defining a Specialist as someone with a SINGLE SKILL at a marketable rating, whereas others are defining it as someone with a SET OF SKILLS RELATED TO THE JOB all at a marketable rating. Some people are defining a Generalist as someone with a LARGE NUMBER OF SKILLS all at a marketable rating, and others are defining it as someone with a LARGE NUMBER OF SKILLS AT LESS than the marketable rating. Until these term definitions are resolved, this argument will never be resolved.

[Reaver]

Speaking as a specialist, you all seem to be missing out on some logic.. Let's use myself as an example.

I am technically, an instrument mechanic. I build, repair, design, install, and maintain all the PLCs, wiring, gauges, tubing, and parts that are used in the automation of an industrial plant. It's complex, messy work... And I get paid ALOT for it. Namely because there are so few of us that can do the work.
 
Now, to become an IM, you must be an electrician (with an emphasis on industrial).

To be an industrial electrician, you must know residential and commercial electrical.

I can wire your house, your business, your industrial facility, AND maintain your industrial plants motors, automation systems, all it's switches, gauges, lights, read outs, etc...

Due to my specializations, it's not a question of 'when a job comes in' its a question of 'what job do I want to take?'
I am currently working out of a camp in northern BC for the simple fact that they are paying me EXTREMELY well. But I also get job offers to work other places all the time, from all over the world! Your general electrician (meaning commercial/residential) doesn't get those offers. after all there are general electricians everywhere.

When you are looking at a specialist, you are looking at a skillet that goes beyond what normal practitioners in that field have. And you pay for that simply cause if you need a specialist, you have to convince him to take your job over all the other offers that are available.

you don't hire a IM to wire your house (but you COULD). However you don't hire a general electrician to maintain/setup your mining operation (and you CAN'T).

[Lethe]

While that real life example is correct, the general electrician you mentioned as the antagonist is not a real generalist, because you know everything he knows plus your specialty. This discussion was about the generalist knowing other important out field skills that would be important for the job, that the specialist, who only knows his field, knows not.

Lets go on with that example:
I am the Johnson and looking for an IM, who has to do THAT, but in an enemy facility... unnoticed.
Lets assume you know nothing about infiltration, disguising, fast talking yourself out of stuff, research on secret layouts, hacking, and so on.

You are a specialist, who needs help from others to complete your skillset and to even have a chance to succeed. But at the same time, the more people are involved and need to get into the facility, the more likely it might fail.

Now there is a generalist, who might not be as good as you in that specific field and will probably take a bit longer to succeed for that task, but instead knows all the other stuff, and is able to research on and infiltrate the facility on his own. Wouldn't you pay him almost as much as the whole other team?


If the generalist is unable, because of the lack of knowledge, then he wouldn't even qualify for the job.
So the general assumption here was, as i read it, that the generalist is able to succeed at some point with the task.

But at that point the terms specialist and generalist might not be accurate anymore, as the generalist might be called a specialist with his skillset for exactly that kind of job.

[Reaver]

While that real life example is correct, the general electrician you mentioned as the antagonist is not a real generalist, because you know everything he knows plus your specialty. This discussion was about the generalist knowing other important out field skills that would be important for the job, that the specialist, who only knows his field, knows not.

Lets go on with that example:
I am the Johnson and looking for an IM, who has to do THAT, but in an enemy facility... unnoticed.
Lets assume you know nothing about infiltration, disguising, fast talking yourself out of stuff, research on secret layouts, hacking, and so on.

You are a specialist, who needs help from others to complete your skillset and to even have a chance to succeed. But at the same time, the more people are involved and need to get into the facility, the more likely it might fail.

Now there is a generalist, who might not be as good as you in that specific field and will probably take a bit longer to succeed for that task, but instead knows all the other stuff, and is able to research on and infiltrate the facility on his own. Wouldn't you pay him almost as much as the whole other team?


If the generalist is unable, because of the lack of knowledge, then he wouldn't even qualify for the job.
So the general assumption here was, as i read it, that the generalist is able to succeed at some point with the task.

But at that point the terms specialist and generalist might not be accurate anymore, as the generalist might be called a specialist with his skillset for exactly that kind of job.

The point I was making is that a specialist has not only his specialized knowledge and skills, he has a host of other skills that your generalist would have.  If you would preferr a more SR example

Thug: can shoot someone with a light pistol
Army: can shoot you with a heavy pistol, AR, has an understanding of urban combat, tactics
'Hitman': can shoot you with a heavy pistol, sniper rifle, has an understanding of urban combat, tactics, police proceedures, and infeltration.
'assassin': can shoot you with a heavy pistol, sniper rifle, garrote you, stab you, pummel you to death with is bare hands, infeltration, disguise, matrix hacking (maglocks), B/R (maglocks), police proceedures, urban combat tactics.

And those are just a FEW of their skills. Now by the definiation of a GENERALIST (meaning all skill at a general level on competency, no specializations) as opposed to a specialist (who has a specialization in a certain skillset and complimentary skills to fulfill his occupation) . You're telling me the thug should get paid more cause he has the least amount of specializations (light pistol)?

[Lethe]

My definitions:
generalist: all skills average to good.
specialist: one skill very high, all other skills below average
Or in SR terms: both have spent 100BP on skills (thats how it all started), the specialist on a few, the generalist on many.

Your example sadly ignores this premise: Your generalist(thug) spent 10 BP on skills, your specialist(assassin) 200 BP. Of course in your eyes the specialist is better, but that's another chapter in another book.

[Reaver]

Actually, the very definiation of what you are hiring dictates BP.

A 16yr gutter trash is a punk/thug has 100bp and are a dime a dozen

A 40yr old professional is an assassin and has 300+ bp and are rare.

Sure the thug can CALL himself an assassin, but he's still a punk. Just like you can call a mouse an elephant.... But biologically it's still a mouse.


SOMEONE with a flat 200bp in skills is a professional in their field (looking at the entire breath of skills)

AN INDIVIDUAL with 300+bp in skills is an elitist of a profession (and most likely a specialist)

When you give someone a title (like hit man, or assassin, soldier, thug, goon, dentist) you are emplying a level of professionalism which is reflected in SR by a multitude of things (ie: professional rating all NPCs have, total BP in skills). There is a large difference between a man who makes his lively hood taking lives and a man who can take a life.

[Zilfer]

I think Mason's right on this one about the definations of people being the problem. I'm on the general side that thinks a specialist has high skill in one area but also very good skills other places as well. Again the specialist will be paid more, and people looking for a specific subtype will pay more to have someone trained specifically in that area.

Want someone who gets in and out without being seen for an assassination mission? Your going to need a specialist.

[Lethe]

SOMEONE with a flat 200bp in skills is a professional in their field (looking at the entire breath of skills)

AN INDIVIDUAL with 300+bp in skills is an elitist of a profession (and most likely a specialist)

That's just what i said, you simply have another definition of specialist. A definition that is not fitting to the problem.
IIRC the generalist/specialist discussion was about shadowrun characters. When you make a new 400BP character you can specialize in some areas and neglecting others (being a specialist) or taking lots of skills on an average level (being a generalist).
Nowhere in there fits your 500BP assassin or your 50BP thug, they are just not part of the problem, because those titles don't define how they divided their skill points. You can have assassin specialist, focusing on some parts whats needed for being an assassin or you can have an assassin generalist, paying attention to all areas of being an assassin equally.

When you give someone a title (like hit man, or assassin, soldier, thug, goon, dentist) you are emplying a level of professionalism which is reflected in SR by a multitude of things (ie: professional rating all NPCs have, total BP in skills). There is a large difference between a man who makes his lively hood taking lives and a man who can take a life.

Not sure where you just pulled those titles out, but titles are not part of the problem. Its generalist vs. specialist, please focus.

[Leigion]

I think reavers point on the top of the board sums it up beautifully a specialist in a field can do more then a general/generic job where as a general/generic cant do a specialist job. Now using some examples given lets turn this back into shadowrun and a being hired for a job since that's what this topic is about. Let us look at skills do the job pay grade, and professionalism for a specialist. Well take wet work for example people have been dropping the profession of hit man in this so lets start there, simple enough. Lets use a professional free lance hit man who has a good rep and been at his trade for a number of years as to further outline our specialist. I'll use a trigger man as our general/generic. Since breaking these two types down will be long ill put it into posts.Let us begin with our realistic free lance proffessional hit man.

Disclaimer Everything i write in this post is purely hypothetical using logical responses. In the case of anything matching real world i read allot and there for i must of read it somewhere. I may or may not remember where or when i read it at any given time. I do not, am not encouraging people to hire hit man or a trigger man to kill people. Nor be a hit man/trigger man. Nor do i or em i encouraging people to break the law any law at anytime. Everything written is for peoples personal use in a "fictional game" to make hiring hit man/ trigger man more realistic.Any and all jokes are supposed to be taken jokingly not psychoanalyzed. The often over looked reason for this is if you psychoanalyze a joke you kill said joke.

Lets start right where it begins with getting hired. The professional freelance hit man usually has at least one "handler" to a handful of "handlers" anymore and well it will increases getting busted in the long run. The Client calls /meets "handler" they will meet/speak and work out what's in the contract and then meets/calls (throw away phone) the hit man. Grace period one hour before the client calls  another  person for the contract if said client knows another person. This isn't strumming threw  the yellow pages  looking for contract killers  r us. The "handler" can be just a liaison or more likely a under boss,capo or some other rank in file of organized crime. Who hires the hit man from time to time. The "handler" acts as a buffer and puts much needed security check point between the hit man and the client. Yes folks conspiracy to commit 1st degree murder is a serious charge let alone the actual murder. The "handler" Knows the basic fees along with additional fees for complications. The thing that's not always known to the "handler"is what the hit man will charge for a high profile target. Since depending on the "who" can change the regular fee the most.

The "handler" and hit man then meet/call discuss the contract "who" "what" "when" "where" to confirm if it can be done after the down payment was given. At this time the hit man may refuse the contract for what ever reason. If the hit man agrees  the "handler" calls/meets back  with the client and confirms . That's it with in two calls rarely a third call to the client. That's right people its not getting windows done talking to sales reps working a better price. These people are serious and serious about getting paid, they don't do well with shine jobs or being jerked around with call backs. Down payment is usually ballpark figure of 5k (note if the hit man says no, you don't have to pay it.) If the hit man says yes then you do, and you will forgo that fee if you call it off. Buyer beware getting it called off in most likely will not happen. You more then likely are going to have to buy the life back higher then 5k or incase the client has some decent clout in the underworld even then they either pay half or full because it shows respect. It also Keeps the door open for a next time and at the same time doesn't make the client look cheap. Power perceived is power achieved. No respectable bad guy wants to look cheap when it comes paying for service.     
 
The hit man will be later paid threw the handler. If the handler is part of organized crime the handler will assume payment in case the client welches on the deal. That is the handlers problem not hit man but you better believe its going to be a serious problem for the client, since it just came out of pocket for someone else's mess. Here is what the breakdown for hiring a professional hit man looks like. Regular ballpark figure 20k-30k to hire.
"Who" as in high profile can increase the fee up as much as 10-20k in increments going up the latter as high profile. If the "who" has competent bodyguards capable of giving resistance that counts as high profile btw.
"What" regards to certain way it needs to be done. (examples looks like a accident,body needs to disappear, throat slit, car explosion,place a item ect)These complication cost anywhere between 2-5k. Note its not unheard of for charging as much as 10k for body removal and making it disappear.
"When" is a average grace period one week. This complication is usually 2-5k per day working backwards from the 7 day. Do not confuse actual grace period with when it gets done. The hit man will take the target as soon as he can uphold the contract.(so if needs to be done in exactly 4 days charging 2k a day removed from the 7th day looks like 6k fee.)
"Where" reguards to having to find the target as in target location is unknown. Any who this complication doesn't really change fees just extends the grace period. The hit man may or may not charge in traveling costs. Professionals usually don't charge. Note on traveling a hit man usually will drive or charter a private plane (as in small aircraft not a private jet) Charter planes charge by the hour and is in between 160-200 a hour.                 

The benefits to hiring a professional hit man are as follows, Enmity. Service can be catered to the client wishes. A murder can be made into a accident. Professionalism as in, not drawing attention, getting the job done, no goof ups, wont leave evidence, wont leave a credible witnesses.. Client can establish a air tight alibi because the client didn't commit the murder. Basically zero chance of being busted as long as you don't do one of these three things A) You admit to hiring a hit man. B)The hit man sells you out on a later date and you do a or c.  C) If the money given was accounted for (that means bank account records or a over the table loan can prove a link to you and the money given. Is typical of how  the client gets caught and shouldn't be over looked) So don't pull 30k out the bank folks use that nest egg under the mattress.for your inheritance money, for the naggy wife's life insurence, for that two timing cheating boyfriend, who cheated on you with your brother or that 75 year old eye witness who identified you for flashing her retirement home.
 
Contrary to popular believe many professional hit man usually are not case book sociopathic amoral killers. Some have personal code of ethics which would contradict amoral and even sociopathic. They tend to blend in to society and have higher then average I.Q's. When it comes to the target, they dont seem to feel anything towards the target. They don't feel a rush stalking nor excite making the kill. For everyday people to understand what type of mindset this would be. Actually think about what you feel when you accidentally stepped on a ant five minutes after the fact. They also tend to have themselfs under control and are patient.           
For you game nuts out there i could make this character with 350bp and probally flesh it out so its not really completly min/maxed. You can go with the standard 400bp, the key to the skills are broad enough to do the contract the way the client's want, but specialized enough get close to the target or reach out from a rooftop. Does the skills mater of course but so does the professionalism, the ability to be a critical thinker, be a planner and to have patience. Because with out those things your just really a trigger man and your pay grade will prove it. See trigger man in my next post.

[Leigion]

Disclaimer Everything i write in this post is purely hypothetical using logical responses. In the case of anything matching real world i read allot and there for i must of read it somewhere. I may or may not remember where or when i read it at any given time. I do not, am not encouraging people to hire hit man or a trigger man to kill people. Nor be a hit man/trigger man. Nor do i or em i encouraging people to break the law any law at anytime. Everything written is for peoples personal use in a "fictional game" to make hiring hit man/ trigger man more realistic.Any and all jokes are supposed to be taken jokingly not psychoanalyzed. The often over looked reason for this is if you psychoanalyze a joke you kill said joke.

So now lets take a look at general/generic trigger man, AKA enforcers. Its more or less a job description then a title. So a trigger man could be a gang banger, could be a biker prospect, work for a criminal organazation and last but not least could be a person who got the webbles and or to dust people for a living. Lets start at how you become a trigger man.  First and for most before you are considered to be hired your going to have to kill a random person or rival probono. This tests your if you can actually do it. Most criminal organazations including inner city gang bangers will send a shaperone and a driver to make sure you do it. Best case senerio if you cant or foul it up you lose a ton of street cred, worste case well people went out to kill a man today it just happend to be the wannabe. The later is almost a gureentee, you will find out why later in the post. Anywho getting that hurdle out of the way you can now be considered for trigger man status.

Trigger man generaly have two things working against them in their profession other then the obvious. 
1. They have to branch out enough to make contacts with people who will hire them for killing people. This inturn flings thier nickname and street cred out and about.
2. Because of fear/respect you get out on the street/crimminal organazation and the way of life is violent thier is a  increase in people wanting to be a trigger man. Its not like it requires a high school deploma. A trigger man usually suplement thier incomes as an enforcer or with armed robberies when not directed to kill people.

So lets look at getting hired and how the meet looks like. In the case of inner city it could be as simple as a person stopping to talk to the trigger man from the neiborhood. Watup doe badaboom badabing, I'll have your skrila when its done'yo. Yea tell me about it, life is getting cheaper by the day. In the case of asking a criminal outfit for a trigger man. You better be able to hold your own and have some street cred. Do not recommend walking into a known 1% biker bar finding the biggest bad ass and saying "hey, how much for you to kill my ex wife?" Betta buy the man a drink first.

A typical meet will look like this though 2/4 people meet up. After checked for wires. (Fun factoid conspiracy to commit murder in the 1st degree is a no less then 15 no more then 60 prison sentence) The contracter talks to the trigger man the other two people are watching and minding thier own business. The deal is worked out pretty fast and thats it.

Average pay grade for decent trigger man is 1,000-10,000k. Inner city pretty cheap ballpark is 1000-5000k Some are known to charge more but this is the going rate. Many are willing to barter though surprizingly. Going through organize crime again ballpark figures are roughly 5000-10,000k they will pretty much get what ever they can out of the contracter but will negotiate quickly and usually have a flat rate. Its because of the hustle they have on murder. Usualy not in all case's but the guy you pay out to isn't the guy who actually kills the target. If its a regular target they will send a prospect or guy who wants in to do it. This creates a win win win sitcho, for said group. They test the new guy's weebles and the guy you paid out keeps most of the cash. Thats right folks the middle man keeps the cash and then shows up at the party they throw for the new guy getting in. Three 7's for the middle man.

If the new guy fouls it up the shaperone will take out the target and the new guy. In that case, the guy you paid off now pays out the shaperone most of the cash and thats why the middle man tells shoot the new guy if he fails. The only thing that will save your ass in this fail moment being the new guy is if you make decent cash for the orgazation to siyphon off from and or you happen to be related to someone who is seen as respectable member, but you dont get in. Some organazation are no joke about this rule getting in. If you cant kill a guy,you will totally get dusted if you cant make your bones.

Most trigger men metal states are/almost sociopathic in nature with a increase of testrone real or imagined with a growing ego. Many are pipolar and if they become agitated it will quickly become a explosivly violent situation. A large portion will suffer from paranoid deluions from time to time if not permentatly. They tend to downwirl spiral into a damn dear deranged state's. Many constatly seek  rushes threw drugs/alcholoh mostly uppers though. A large portion enjoy what they do, stalking thrills them and killing exites them. They will usually suffer from P.T.S.D some are known to also have ADDHD on top of that. For common everday people to understand this midset imagine on one hand your totally indestructable and on the other hand your vunerable(aka slipping) now put your hands together and make them wrestle each other.
 
A very small portion of these people are actually shut off from what they do and are considered respectable bad guys. The respectable one's will get better pay raise and or a nice comfortable posistion in an criminal organazation if they belong or get into one. That is if they can beat the odds between a violent death or a long prison sentence. (Fun factiod) Some organazations will form a betting pool between certain members complete with odds and send one unoffilated trigger man to go after another unaffilated trigger man.

[Mason]

If you guys can't agree on a definition, this argument will be pointless. I will share what I think for the benefit of whoever cares, but I won't argue definitions, so if you disagree, well, whatever. Have fun arguing.

Anyway, the "generalist" capable of doing multiple jobs as well as a "specialist" is not a "generalist", he is a "multiple specialist". A "specialist" is someone who has specialized in one kind of work and its associated work. A "generalist" is someone who handles the general work, the miscellaneous stuff that is too small or unimportant for the highly skilled people to take care of.

[Leigion]

Sorry for the long wall of text but i was trying to do two things A. list pricing for what it would be for wetwork since thats what the OP was asking about, pricing for jobs and hitman came up in someone else post. B. end the argument on what a defination of specialist vrs generalist. I tried toe to toe explaining it with a hitman and a trigger man. Reaver was spot on with "When you are looking at a specialist, you are looking at a skillset that goes beyond what normal practitioners in that field have" there thats it.  Done end of argument. If people are still lost take 400bp build Cat burgular it doesnt have to be able to break into meusems just be able to B&E a rich lavish house. Now make a 400bp non cat buglar and give him some B&E skills.

Now whos going to break into the rich lavish house?Who's going to dodge house servants, crack a safe and be out before the master of the house is done having brunch, unnoticed?  My money is on the cat buglar could the other guy attempt it sure but you know whats going to happen just as well as do. Even if he gets past house security system its more then likely going to turn into a hostage sitcho and/or a panic button Still he can't crack a safe and be out, unnoticed. Anywho I hope someone can use something out of the hitman or trigger man write up i gave.