[The Seven]

Hey all. 

I'm no new SR GM, even though I'm new to the forums. Been playing for years, and even had a very nice 18 months campaign. But one thing bugs me, recently, on the verge of starting a new campaign: restrictions on gear availability on character creation.

Do any fellow GMs feel the need to restrict gear on creation? On my previous games, I've seen some wicked armor/weapon combos (like the 8 BP, 13P -4 AP Bessie from other post) and trolls with way too much armor they were literal walking tanks.

For this game, I'm inclined to restrict creation gear availability to a maximum of 6, and no Forbidden gear allowed at all. I've already received major criticism from my players regarding that decision, so I come to you to ask. Do you feel it's a fair decision? If not, what should I do to avoid 450-BP characters on becoming too powerful?

Thanks. 

[FastJack]

Make them 400 BP characters. We just finished up a Character Creation session Friday night and they certainly weren't looking at too powerful stuff. Think about it this way: a 450 BP character is the same as a 400 BP character, except with an extra 250,000¥ to spend...

[The Seven]

That's one way of seeing it. The way my players go for, they have 16-dice pools for combat tests... Hell, our chaoist mage even had trouble buying spells! But yeah, I'll think about 400-BP characters. They'll be pissed to throw away their current ones, though.

[Man Who Walks At Night]

My players got 600 BP to play with - but I kept the restrictions on gear except a few individual exceptions (which all needed to be accepted by me).

That said, I am blessed with players who take their BP and spends them on knowledge skills, additional etiquette skills or similar non-combat options, so I never really had a problem with players becoming too powerful, except once, and the player re-rolled after 2 sessions because he didn't enjoy playing such a powerful char.

But from what I read, then unless you, like me, are blessed with players who doesn't try to become unstoppable killing machines, then I really would keep the restrictions in place - or at the very least require your approval for each item beyond the restrictions.

[The Seven]

Oh, I have some very wicked players. One of them made a troll melee adept complete with Killing Hands, 13 Body and Martial Arts.

He tried to stop a train, though, with his shoulders. Glad they're not too bright.

[Mäx]

For this game, I'm inclined to restrict creation gear availability to a maximum of 6, and no Forbidden gear allowed at all. I've already received major criticism from my players regarding that decision, so I come to you to ask. Do you feel it's a fair decision?

Hell no, I too would be really pissed iif a GM told me that the game is higher power level at 450BP and then told "but im declaring most of the good gear oflimits"
The availebilities of pretty much every single piece of gear are designed around the fact that the limit in chargen is 12, i can mostly understand a GM enforcing a lower limit on a low powered game(350BP for example) but doing so in a higher powered game throws all semblance of balance out of the window(for example now mages and adept are only ones with acces to extra IP:s outside of drugs)

[Glyph]

I think you might have a slightly skewed version of what is, and isn't, overpowered, if you think 16 dice for a combat test is overpowered.  Shadowrunners are not the equivalent of first-level characters.  They have been doing their jobs for awhile - they may not be the best of the best, but they can start out as pros who have the potential to break into the ranks of upper-echelon runners eventually.

One thing to remember about dice pools is that Shadowrun has a lot of situational modifiers.  Sure, they have 16 dice unwounded, facing a stationary target a point blank range - but what if it is raining, there is glare from street lights, the shooter is wounded, and the target is at medium range, and moving?

The availability restriction is, frankly, way over the top.  They can't even get simple things like smartlinks or wired reflexes: 1 with those limits.  You might as well say "Don't bother playing anything but an awakened character or a technomancer."  An availablity restriction to 8 would fit a low-powered 300 point game (although I would restrict Magic/Resonance to 3, to keep it relatively even).  A 450 point game should have the full normal availability, though.

If your players truly aren't that bright, then let them make powerful characters - they will need that edge, simply to survive by the skin of their teeth (if at all).  Shadowrun is a very tactical game.  Ganger punks who spread out and use cover (as well as some other elementary tactics) can ruin a much more powerful PC's day.  But at least if bad things happen to their characters, they won't be able to blame you - because if you restrict them after the fact, every bad decision they make will magically be your fault.  It won't be "Gee, I guess a running charge at four guards with submachine guns was a bad idea."  Instead, it will be "Damnit, if you had let me get some decent armor and that dermal plating, I could have soaked that damage."

[Mäx]

I think you might have a slightly skewed version of what is, and isn't, overpowered, if you think 16 dice for a combat test is overpowered.

This too, I'm pretty sure i can make starting character with double that and she actually might be a little bit OP, but 16 dice definedly isn't(especially in a 450BP game)

[Destrucity]

On a related note, I'm a new gm to shadowrun and so are all my players. They are standard 400bp characters and after 3 sessions I'm finding it to be too easy for them. They are taking out most guards and cops without taking a scratch. I would think most guard and cops would get a combat dice pool of 6-8. I'm I wrong? My players don't seem to have a problem avoiding getting hit with such low dice pools. I'm just trying to figure out how to give them a realistic challange.

Thanks for any advice,

Destrucity

[Man Who Walks At Night]

On a related note, I'm a new gm to shadowrun and so are all my players. They are standard 400bp characters and after 3 sessions I'm finding it to be too easy for them. They are taking out most guards and cops without taking a scratch. I would think most guard and cops would get a combat dice pool of 6-8. I'm I wrong? My players don't seem to have a problem avoiding getting hit with such low dice pools. I'm just trying to figure out how to give them a realistic challange.

Thanks for any advice,

Destrucity

Seems about right - but there is a few things to consider.

1) Challenges comes in other forms than combat
2) Shadowrunners against standard rent-a-guard types should find it fairly easy, they have superior training, gear and experience compared to a standard guard.
3) Piling them on is a good idea though as each additional attack against someone in same combat turn reduces their defense pools with 1 dice cumulative, toss 10 guards and have them all fire at the same runner, and eventually, he will get hit
4) Sometimes a fight is just not supposed to be tough

[Dakka]

Keep in mind the availability rating of gear to new players is only 12 and below.  Sure, you can get some good stuff, but not the BEST stuff. 

[Glyph]

On a related note, I'm a new gm to shadowrun and so are all my players. They are standard 400bp characters and after 3 sessions I'm finding it to be too easy for them. They are taking out most guards and cops without taking a scratch. I would think most guard and cops would get a combat dice pool of 6-8. I'm I wrong? My players don't seem to have a problem avoiding getting hit with such low dice pools. I'm just trying to figure out how to give them a realistic challange.

Thanks for any advice,

Destrucity

6-8 dice is about right, maybe a bit more.  Looking at the sample NPCs, a corporate security guard will be rolling 8 dice for his H&K 227X (which includes a smartlink), while the Lone Star cop will be rolling 7 dice for his Colt American L36.  Keep in mind, though, that these stats are for a first-line defender (whose main job is to keep the runners busy until heavy reinforcements show up), and an average beat cop (who doesn't even have the signature Ruger Thunderbolt used by Lone Star).  A veteran cop, or one patrolling a dangerous part of the sprawl, might use the Lieutenant stats, and things like SWAT units will have more cyberware (look at the Lone Star SWAT package from Augmentation for an example).  Likewise, corporate guard reinforcements will be more heavily armed, and better trained.

Even average security guards can be dangerous, though.  Have them use cover and not cluster up, and keep in mind that security measures will be designed to help them, and hinder intruders.  Don't forget that sometimes the PCs might need perception checks to even spot someone, when they are getting hit from several different directions at once.  Have security guards retreat, or set up ambushes.  Don't have them in a neat row for the street samurai to mow down, or in a cluster for the mage to manaball.  Player characters should still dominate such lesser foes most of the time, but if their enemies use some basic tactics, they will have to work for it a bit more.

Average grunts are not the only thing runners will ever face, though.  There are vampires, ghouls, bounty hunters, hit men, underworld enforcers, devil rats, company men, and lots of other things they can wind up facing.  Also remember that numbers can make even street punks dangerous.

[Destrucity]

You guys are awesome!  I feel better about what I've been throwing at them and  I have a better idea on how this game is meant to be played now.  I'm use to running werewolf the apocalypse where the enemies are either = in strength or have some other powers to make up for their physical weakness. I have a feeling an average pc in shadowrun could destroy most werewolf characters quite easily.  Happy Hunting

Thanks again!

[Exodus]

I'm also glad to know the average dice my grunts are throwing at the players' is within the average. However, while we're on the subject of challenging players what do you folks think about this?

Corporate factory/warehouse that's nestled up against a high-crime area. Surrounded with a 10' electrified fence, one gate for trucks entering/leaving, warnings are supplied only via AR tags. The guards get a kick out of watching the SINless and poverty-stricken blunder into the fence and get zapped.
Local Spider augmenting the regular guards. Guards are fitted with a slaved tacnet supplying visual, biometric, smartlinked guncam, and triangulated positioning (more on that later). Hardlined security cameras at all corners of course. A couple Nissan Dobermans with a fitting weapons package.

Triangulated positioning supplied by 3 antenna towers, on the roof of the guard's outbuilding, on the main warehouse, and on the shed housing the backup generator. Each antenna tower also has a parabolic reflector that allows the local Spider to more easily scan for hidden wireless nodes in the area with sweeping pings. I'm thinking of tacking on directional jamming to these antenna towers.

Also, if the players are prone to policing weapons from fallen adversaries the Spider is authorized to activate an electro shocker mounted in each guard's issued weapon if the weapon is a certain distance from the guard or the guard's location cannot be determined.

I'm unsure of several things.
1. What level of magical support is appropriate, probably not a dedicated mage, but what bound spirit would be good?
2. I haven't figured actual stats for the various hardware components, tacnet, antenna towers, etc.
3. What's a good weapons' package for the guards and drones for a facility of this caliber?
4. What kind of a response time could a facility like this, located next to a high-crime area, expect from local law enforcement? Or would an extra territorial response be more appropriate?

[The Seven]

Alright, I'm convinced. Turns out I'll just have to put some more badass oponents. Thanks all!