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Image link and shooting through walls.

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todeath6655

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« on: <05-29-18/1840:20> »
I am starting a Shadowrun campaign 5th edition and I have a question about a mechanic one of my players brought up. This player wants to be a sniper and they're trying to argue that even if a enemies behind full cover they can't see them they're behind the wall or some such, that if they have a drone or some other device with image link and it's being uploaded to them they can shoot through this wall and hit the enemy without the -6 dice penalty. I can't find anything in the rules how should I handle this. Thanks in advance sincerely todeath6655

Marcus

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« Reply #1 on: <05-29-18/2012:51> »
A Tac-Net I think can reduce the penalty, and add bonus dice. But those are not cheap and it take a some setting up to do.
There are some piece of tech for seeing through barriers, and there are rules for shooting at approximate location which i do think is like -6 penalty.

There are qualities for reducing shooting penalties. I suspect you could mitigate that penalty a fair amount, but I doubt you could fully negate  it, but with maybe the exception of really high grade tac-net. However a -6 for a well built sniper is hardly a deal breaker.
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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #2 on: <05-29-18/2106:25> »
Indeed.  Something akin to a teammate or drone spotting a target and tagging it with an ARO would simply allow the blind fire through a wall rather than negating the penalty for blind fire.
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Reaver

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« Reply #3 on: <05-29-18/2244:27> »
All an image link allows is for pictures and video from one point (the transmitter) to an other point (the receiver). In some ways, its no different then using SnapCHat. One person takes a pic on their phone, then someone can view it on their end.

Sadly, you buddy doesn't really know what he is talking about. Even with an image link focused on the target, directly in the room WITH the target, would not negate the blind fire penalty because the perspective from the camera does not match up with the perspective of looking down the sights of the weapon. All he knows for sure, is that the target is in the room and the general location of the target thanks to the image link, that is not enough to place a precise shot.

However, if it makes him feel better, the target is also -4 dice to reaction test... so there's that. 
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« Reply #4 on: <05-30-18/0050:56> »
Yeah, this is the definition of Blind fire: You know where they are, but don't have a direct LoS, so you're firing without knowing exactly where to fire. I've allowed Snipers to fire through walls with AROs or spotters, but it always came with the Blind Fire penalty.
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Xenon

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« Reply #5 on: <05-30-18/1451:35> »
If the shooter doesn’t know where the target is, they apply the Blind Fire modifier (SR5 p. 178). If the defender is completely hidden behind the barrier, the attacker suffers a –6 Blind Fire dice pool modifier for not being able to see his intended target, but the hidden defender is considered unaware of the attack (SR5 p. 197). Attacks against invisible targets suffer the Blind Fire modifier if the attacker is unable to see or otherwise sense the subject of the spell (SR5 p. 291)

If the shooter know where the target is then they don't apply the Blind Fire modifier. If the defender is not completely hidden behind a barrier then attacker does not suffer a -6 Blind Fire dice pool modifier. Attacks against invisible targets does not suffer the Blind Fire modifier if the attacker is able to see or otherwise sense (hear, smell, touch, taste, assessing, using an ultra sound sensor etc) the subject of the spell.



However, if it makes him feel better, the target is also -4 dice to reaction test... so there's that.
The target does normally not get to take a defense test at all since he is unaware of (can't see) the ranged shooter. However, in this case the target may roll 4 dice as a pool of its own because his body happen to be more than 75% behind cover.
« Last Edit: <05-30-18/1552:56> by Xenon »

Tecumseh

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« Reply #6 on: <05-30-18/1736:42> »
I'm not usually one to say that the SR5 rules aren't granular enough but Blind Fire is a case where a bunch of situations events all get dumped in the same bucket. Specifically, the rules don't really distinguish between "target location uncertain" and "target location totally fragging unknown". For example:

1) Target hiding behind a small piece of cover where there's no real question where they could be = Blind Fire
2) Target hiding behind a large piece of cover where it's uncertain where exactly they are = Blind Fire
3) Shooter firing at an invisible target whose vicinity is suspected but not definitely known = Blind Fire
4) Shooter firing in total darkness, target location could be anywhere up/down/left/right/wherever = Blind Fire

I personally change the penalty based on the situation. For situation #1 I would apply a limited modifier, like -2. My personal opinion is that the -6 Blind Fire penalty is best applied to situations where the shooter has a notion of where the target is but isn't 100% certain. For example, if the target is behind a large piece of cover, or if the target just went invisible but you know their last location, then -6 is appropriate. For situations where the target location is a mystery - i.e. the shooter is basically firing randomly - then I change course completely and make it an Edge test (or even Intuition) because it's now about luck more than about skill. Other GMs may rule differently per their own preferences, their interpretations of the rules, and the exact situation at hand.

Marcus

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« Reply #7 on: <06-02-18/0037:16> »
Was this settled? Did OP find answer he was looking for?
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Xenon

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« Reply #8 on: <06-02-18/0438:21> »
Gut feeling (and how I think many of us might apply the Blind Fire modifier) is that:

If you have a "rough idea" on where the target is (maybe because you see 1% of his body or because you hear an invisible target) you take a Blind Fire penalty of -6 dice.

And "if the shooter doesn't know where the target it" you are not even allowed to take a test to hit the target (save for maybe suppressive fire or getting lucky with AoE attacks).


A strict reading of rules as written, however, seem to suggest that:

If you have a "rough idea" of where the target is located (maybe because you see 1% of his body or because you hear, smell, touch, or even taste an invisible target) then Blind Fire does not apply.

And that you only suffer the Blind Fire penalty of -6 dice if "the shooter doesn’t know where the target is".




Gut feeling (and how I think many of us might apply the Blind Fire modifier) is that the only reason you are allowed to take a test to hit the subject in the first place is because the shooter have a drone in there giving the shooter a "rough idea" on where he should aim but that he need to take the Blind Fire penalty while doing it.


A strict reading of rules as written, however, seem to suggest that the shooter would suffer the Blind Fire modifier if "the shooter doesn't know where the target is" by blindly shooting at the wall that the subject is hiding behind... and if the shooter have a drone in the room showing him the target then the shooter is now made aware of where the target is and "the shooter doesn’t know where the target is" would no longer apply.
« Last Edit: <06-02-18/0505:57> by Xenon »

Marcus

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« Reply #9 on: <06-02-18/1812:55> »
While that's quite lovely Xenon, it still doesn't tell me if OP go the answer he was looking for.
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farothel

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« Reply #10 on: <06-03-18/0410:14> »
I have just another question concerning this.  What is your sniper running around with?  A panther assault cannon?  If not, he's going to have quite a hard time getting through the wall to the target at the other side, blind fire penalty or not.  Unless it's a paper wall, but anything like brick or concrete will normally stop a bullet from a sniper rifle without too much trouble.
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Xenon

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« Reply #11 on: <06-03-18/0545:14> »
If the purpose was to destroy the wall you would probably have to use cannons or explosives, but in this case we are just trying to penetrate the wall.

Sniper rifles in core have an unmodified DV between 11P and 14P and an armor piercing rating between -3 and -5. APDS add another -4 to that. Structural material (like brick) have an unmodified armor rating of 16 while heavy structural material (like concrete) have an unmodified armor rating of 20.

If the modified DV is higher than the modified armor rating then the barrier will take 1 box of damage (or no damage at all, GM call) and the rest (modified DV - 1) will continue through and hit the target on the other side of the barrier.
« Last Edit: <06-03-18/0735:42> by Xenon »

Lorebane24

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« Reply #12 on: <06-03-18/1050:01> »
Imma play devils's advocate here and say that, as a GM, I love this, because it means players are coordinating and thinking tactically, which I like to reward in my games.  I would add in some house rules to handle this, but it would involve a few steps.  First they would need to create an AR overlay for the image link so they could see it while still having some sort of access to their own sights or smartlink.  I look at this as a not-difficult but not-basic computer check (skill level of a tech hobbyist, maybe threshold 2).  Then I would call for a logic + intuition check from the sniper with a variable threshold to see whether they can pinpoint the target that way, which could reduce the blind fire penalty to -4 on a succesd, and if a player really wanted to make this one of their characyer's shticks, I woukd create a 5 point quality for them that further reduces the blind fire penalty to -2 on a success. 

The way I look at this, the tram has to succeed on 2 other checks before the attack roll is even made, and the attack still comes with a minor penalty, AND you have to contend with a potentially very high barrier rating.  It opens up new angles when they coordinate and plan, but there is no guarantee that a mark is going to be in a room or hallway near the building's edge (I wouldn't allow any personal weapon to penetrate deeper than that, even a Barret with APDS rounds), but this could also lead to interesting runs where the party needs to find a way tp lure a fortified target out to a better spot in the building.
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adzling

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« Reply #13 on: <06-03-18/1132:35> »
this is very clearly a blind fire situation at -6.

You cannot directly target him and you are relying on positional data (GPS located ARO targeting icons set by a third party with image link) that has a precision level of @3-4 meters.

So no, this will not remove the -6 blind fire targeting penalty as the target could be anywhere +/- 12 feet in any direction.

Nelphine

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« Reply #14 on: <06-05-18/1613:41> »
Where do you get +- 3 or 4 meters from? I would think taking a video of a room, and then putting that onto an image link, would get much closer. (Imagine having someone with a video camera that is directly uploading onto your phone in your hand - you could cesonly tell within a few inches of where everyone is on that video; the main problem would be perception, and possible time lag, but with even modern day technology time lag would be close to nil, so mostly just perception - I would think -4, with a 5 point quality to reduce to -1 or -2 seems just about perfect. I wouldn't require any checks though, as video up/downloading is basic with any image software). But if there is distances like you've indicated somewhere, that would definitely put it into the -6 territory.