Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: brombur on <10-08-18/1332:09>
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I've got a very noobish set of questions that my reading of the rules seems to be failing to answer.
Matrix connections and host interactions
1 - When a runner enters goes to and attempts to enter a host is there any distance penalties? I would think not because the host are just digital constructs. Am I wrong?
1a - Do devices inside a host count as having a distance from the runner in the host?
1b - The point of a host is to protect its slaved devices but the rules seem to indicate that once you have hacked into a host you count as being directly connected to the device, thereby removing all the benefits of it being slaved to the host in the first place. In fact it turns slaving into a liability from what I can tell
2 - Once runner has accessed a host can they drop from VR to AR in order to move around while still maintaining that connection and then slide between modes as needed to accomplish certain tasks?
2a - If the runner is being looked for and they are in AR can they react and swap modes for their roll to avoid detection?
3 - Do decker's run their decks in silent mode when hacking and thus suffer the -2 silent mode dice penalty or is this accounted for in the standard hacking rolls made by the decker to do everything?
3a - If the penalty exists then the decker must be expected to do somethings while not hidden. So would their be a consequence to a hack on the fly attempt while not in silent mode? I know attacking triggers an alert and sleezinging gets you marked if you fail but what happens when you sleeze, an action that ups your grid score, in a host/system while not hidden
4 - If the Decker's team have access to the matrix, which they all pretty much do, can they watch the decker work and comment on/direct actions. This is really a broader question of do we let our team communicate and help the decker hack, if they themselves lack the skills.
I appreciate your feedbacks
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1: Correct, entering a host is not a dice test, so there is no penalty.
1a: There are no devices in hosts. A host contains only files and personas. Devices slaved to a host can be accessed from within as though you had a direct connection to them, therefore there are no noise penalties
1b: Correct: It's the trade off of having a possibly very strong master lock, but once you have cracked it you have full access to all it protected. That said, the new Kill Code book introduced a new type of host (Industry) that no longer grants the direct connection benefit
2: Yes, you can switch to AR as long as you are not link locked. Moving around the real world is possible but doesn't mean you move through the host - and vice versa.
2a: AR has nothing to do with how easy you are to detect. AR just means you have a dp penalty and rely on your RL ini to act (and you don't take biofeedback damage which can be a very substantial benefit)
3: If you run silent you have a -2 penalty. You can forgoe running silent but that makes it pretty trivial for anyone looking for a hacker to check your device for illegal matrix actions. So as long as no-one notices you using sleaze actions, you don't have to run silent to hack.
3a: Provided you modified your Persona to look like it belongs to the host and you never fail a sleaze action you should be fine. That said: Some hosts have their patrol ic set to be paranoid and may be scanning any persona they detect for illegal matrix actions. In that case it would be better to work in hidden mode
4: Yes, you can communicate pretty freely even while inside a host. That allows leadership and teamwork actions up to a certain degree. That said, you can't watch someone in the matrix if you aren't in the same host as they. A persona that enters a host vanishes from the matrix.
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Thanks for the info. a couple follow ups
Entering the Host isn't an action but sleezing/brute forcing a mark on it is in order to gain entry. Is there a distance penalty on that?
It seems that by the law of averages most accomplished runners can very easily access hosts so is the real benefit/challenge provided by a host that you have IC patrolling and scanning constantly to find those that don't belong?
Correct me if I am wrong but a Host defends against a Hack with its Firewall + Rating which is usually Rating +2 or 3. A good host might get 14-16 dice averaging our to 4 or 5 successes. Pretty comparable to a starting runner who is likely to have a pool between 12-14 dice to start.
Currently I have the hosts using a scanning schedule based on the book and determining at random when it starts scanning for the hacker. How often does the system check itself for unauthorized marks?
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Hacking a MARK on a host might incur a noise penalty from local interference with your connection and being on the wrong grid, but not from distance.
That only is true for hosts up to R6. Serious corporation hosts can go up to 12, making them a serious challenge for even the most accomplished hackers.
The system checks itself as often as the owner thought it would be prudent - i.e. a host dedicated as a matrix club might be less conerned about security and more about not bothering its guests than a security host that shouldn't usually be accessed at all by anyone. The latter will likely check every icon with a matrix perception test that it can find, while the former will only get active if there is an obvious breach of security.
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Thanks again.
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1b: Correct: It's the trade off of having a possibly very strong master lock, but once you have cracked it you have full access to all it protected. That said, the new Kill Code book introduced a new type of host (Industry) that no longer grants the direct connection benefit
Which, in turn, makes it pointless for hackers to enter the host. Flawless game design ::)
(Maybe the freelancer behind that section assumed that you can only interact with the devices slaved to a host while inside that host ???)
3a: Provided you modified your Persona to look like it belongs to the host and you never fail a sleaze action you should be fine. That said: Some hosts have their patrol ic set to be paranoid and may be scanning any persona they detect for illegal matrix actions. In that case it would be better to work in hidden mode
For ease of play, that should be the best way to go right now. It´s a bit of a mushy area, though. So far, Matrix Perception has been pretty proactive: You (and Patrol IC) have to pick a target and inspect it, then you may detect that the Target has previously done something illegal. Some new passages in Kill Code indicate that Matrix Users (and Patrol IC) also have some kind of "Passive" Matrix Perception that allows them to spot things happening as they happen...
4: Yes, you can communicate pretty freely even while inside a host. That allows leadership and teamwork actions up to a certain degree. That said, you can't watch someone in the matrix if you aren't in the same host as they. A persona that enters a host vanishes from the matrix.
Communication with the outside should be possible, yes. Sadly, actual Matrix Teamwork (i.e. the use of the Teamwork rules) is still disputed right now.
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(Maybe the freelancer behind that section assumed that you can only interact with the devices slaved to a host while inside that host ???)
Implying that that's not the standard understanding?
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Slaving has a clearly defined function:
"Slaving gives a weaker device some added protection. Whenever a slaved device is called on to make a defense test, it uses either its own or its master’s rating for each rating in the test." p.233 core
Nothing more and nothing less. It neither makes them vanish from the matrix nor does it allow them to enter a host.
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I read it to mean "you can only interact with devices that are in/on a host while inside that host."
I find it annoyingly easy to get confused about how personas can be "in" a host, but devices can't... even though your persona is kinda just your device + an avatar.
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(Maybe the freelancer behind that section assumed that you can only interact with the devices slaved to a host while inside that host ???)
Implying that that's not the standard understanding?
If you think that assumption through (for standard host, not those new industry hosts), the master-slave-protection from the WAN would never come into play: If you can only wirelessly access the devices in the WAN while you are inside the host (on a side note: What would be the best way for a GM to describe the iconography for this? ???), and if you are automatically assumed to have a direct to connection to every device in the WAN while you are inside the host, the device will always defend with its own Attributes. Then why call it a Slave of the Host to begin with? :P
But here´s the the thing: Your assumption, while not actually supported by the RAW, is still somewhat plausible. And given that you (and you´re surely not the only one!) always assumed WANs to work this way, it seems plausible that the freelancer behind Kill Code´s "Industry hosts" assumed it as well. Hell, it´s even possible that your assumption actually is correct, and there´s just a vital line missing in the core rules since 5 years. Wouldn´t surprise me ::)
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The issue is that I seem to recall reading that you can't interact with things that are outside of a host while you're inside of it and vice versa.
But it's been a while since I actually played or otherwise needed such rules to be fresh in my mind, so I could be misremembering.
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You can’t interact with anything outside the host. Even GOD will not touch you although your Overwatch Counter is still running.
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Why should it work one way, but not the other? If you can't interact with anything on the other side of the host... then you can't interact with anything on the other side of the host.
So if you can't interact with anything that's inside the host while you're outside of it, then you have to be in the host to do anything. Which means the only option is to be in the host, and therefore have a direct connection (or else get an actual physical direct connection), like Finstersang said.
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See this is why I have had so many questions about using the matrix rules as written.
So a device slaved to a host isn't within the host? lets take a standard Security cam on the side of the building. the Decker/Mancer can wirelessly hack the camera without being inside the host? So the device gets its Rating + Host firewall to resist?
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@HP15BS
The important thing to consider is the word "direct connection".
You can't interact with anything on the matrix outside the host, but a direct connection doesn't happen through the matrix. It's a separate line of communication.
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Really telling that there are two fundamentally different interpretations for WAN interactions floating around. After 5 years. And 2 supplements ::)
- Version A: Devices slaved to a host can be accessed from the grid and from inside the host, since you profit from a direct connection to them when you are inside the host.
- Version B: Devices slaved to a host cannot be accessed from the grid, only from inside the host.
Supporting Version A:
- RAW, devices can´t be in hosts right now, only Files and Personas
- In fact, nothing in RAW indicates that B is true. I would be a major omission in the core rules if B was the intended interpretation.
- If B would be true, the Master-Slave-Bonus would never come into play for the protected devices (except industry hosts).
- I´d like to think that the majority plays it that way. I might be wrong here, though :P
Supporting Version B:
- The devices would be even more secure against outsiders. Instead of higher defense pools, it would be actually non-accessible from the Grid.
- How are you supposed to interact with the device when there´s no icon of it in the host? (I brought this in another thread that I can´t find right now: There has to be some kind of "proxy" for the slaved device in the host for A to make sense...)
- The new "Industry hosts" in Kill Code would make more sense (at least from a gameplay perspective) if the devices are only accessible from inside the host. Else, there would be no point of entering the host as a Hacker besides data retrieval.
Note that it´s pretty safe to assume that hackers can, in both cases, access the slaved devices by physical direct connections and (ab)use this to get a cheap Mark on the host as well. I think there are even gameplay examples supporting this.
From both gameplay and security perspective, both interpretations are plausible: The host adds protection to the device against "outsiders" (either by the Master-Slave protection or by hiding them devices altogether), while the device becomes a weakness for the host. Getting inside the host to hack devices is a valuable option under assumption A and mandatory under assumption B. Right now, RAW clearly supports Version A. However, with the general quality and clarity of the early 5th Matrix content that that still stinks up the game, it´s cannot be excluded that Version B has always been RAI :P
My suspicion: Assumption A is true, but the freelancer behind the "Industry hosts" thought that B is true. As obvious some players do as well.
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It’s A
Normally in a host you’d have a direct connection to all items slaved to a host but Industrial hosts circumvent that rule. Hacking an industrial host just give you easy access without noise distance
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Hah, I forgot about the noise... Now that makes sense, even for industry hosts. Thanks for the clarification ;D
I´m still not sure how Avatars inside the Host percieve the devices the slaved devices it. Or, from a GM´s perspective, how to describe the iconography. So far, I used "proxies" like remote controls, consoles, screens, spellbooks etc. to represent the slaved devices inside the host. I think there would be much less confusion on this if there was a narrative(!) example covering this ???
One thing that surely takes the edge of the whole thing: After all, hosts are GM-controled anyways. If the vision for the story calls for a host that works like Version B for some or all of its slaved devices, there´s no reason to slavishly stick to the RAW ;)
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How the personas and icons act inside a host depends entirely on the host designer. It could basically be anything not even limited to eyeballs or decapitated heads for sensors etc.. Each host has a theme (normally, in some cases chaos is the theme) where each icon play a part. Reading the fiction some hackers are exposed as intruders because they do not understand the iconography...
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My only real question about the hacking outside vs inside the host question is that if the device can be hacked outside of the host would there ever be a reason to go at it from the inside?
From a strictly math perspective hacking a slaved device that uses Rating + Firewall is strictly easier and much safer than going against a host with its Rating + Firewall and then risking battling IC to get a roll against the device at Rating x 2. Not to mention in a prolonged run with multiple cameras or systems to hack you either have to hang out in the host and hope you don't get killed or take virtually unlimited, safe cracks at hacking the device from the outside.
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Well, if you can get a direct connection on a device from the outside of a host then you can circumvent the host’s defense. By making a device slaved to the host you’ll also mark the host itself allowing you easier access should you need it
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If you have
a. A lot of different devices to hack (f.i. multiple cameras and Maglocks along your team´s pathway) and
b. Other things to do in the host (like Datasteals),
going in for reduced noise and lowered defences might be the better option. You´re right, though: The incentive to actually enter the host could be higher than that; And with industry hosts, it´s even lower. I´m still not thrilled about this design decision, TBH.
There´s a deeper problem than just maths and probabilities at play here, though. As a GM, I experienced a lot of reluctance to enter hosts at my tables, because mingling around in a host can get not only dangerous, but also pretty damn annoying once IC comes into play. Get caught, and you face a (usually boring and repetitive) pseudo-combat while the rest of the group is disengaged. In fact, I´ve yet to see an actual combat sequence between hackers and IC, because the hackers usually just log out asap when they get caught. And that´s mostly not because of the danger, but because of the eyerolls from the other players at the table. Even if you stay hidden, you are pestered by the Patrol IC, which requires a lot of GM calls and, if played strictly by the core rules, needs to constantly have its Initiative tracked. The fact that the defense mechanisms in a host are exclusively proactive is the biggest problem when it comes to host interaction and Gameplay pacing IMO.
(I cooked up a bunch of ideas for "passive IC" to combat this specific problem, though. I will post them soon as part of my houserule series ;))
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Doesn’t the fact you dara spike anything you can physically see dictate that A is the only possible solutions?
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My only real question about the hacking outside vs inside the host question is that if the device can be hacked outside of the host would there ever be a reason to go at it from the inside?
From a strictly math perspective hacking a slaved device that uses Rating + Firewall is strictly easier and much safer than going against a host with its Rating + Firewall and then risking battling IC to get a roll against the device at Rating x 2. Not to mention in a prolonged run with multiple cameras or systems to hack you either have to hang out in the host and hope you don't get killed or take virtually unlimited, safe cracks at hacking the device from the outside.
Gaining a MARK to enter a host is a relatively safe thing to do. There is no IC outside and you can reboot easily after a failed attempt.
Once you are inside, you can crank up your sleaze to remain undetected. Or you can nuke the patrol IC every round and prevent other IC from being launched. (That is of course only viable if all you want to do is hack the slaved device)
It might take more steps than attacking the slaved device directly, but you'll not warn the owner of the device through a possibly failed attempt - especially if you need more than one MARK (in that case the math is extremely in favor of hacking one difficult MARK and afterwards hack two or three easy MARKs at your leisure)
Industry hosts are the attempt to give the GM a tool to stop easy hacks entirely. There isn't much more to it than that.
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Rolling device rating x2 versus host rating + firewall can be a huge difference in dice pools, which especially matter for repetitive hacks like on cameras where you have to constantly edit the feed of a camera (the old chestnut of 'looping the camera' doesn't seem to be a thing anymore, from my reading?), or have to work your way through a sequence of cameras.
Why it really matters is edge. A security host could quite reasonably have rating plus firewall of 17 dice, and not many hackers are going to beat that reliably -- but they can probably edge that one Hack on the Fly roll to get a mark without getting noticed, and then pass into the host. After which they might be facing a much more manageable 8-10 dice resistance from the devicex2 rating.
As Jack Spade said, there are then tricks for staying unseen inside a host (like running Smoke and Mirrors along with good noise reduction so as not to penalize yourself) -- but also editing a file is not an illegal activity, so if you have a mark and follow the theme of the host in your iconography, you are sitting pretty because you are not doing anything illegal (at least not the majority of the time).
Honestly if I house rule the matrix at some point, one of the two things I'm going to do is put an option for 'blending in with the host' where if you win your roll there (and have a mark), the host accepts you fully so long as you are not seen to do anything illegal. In part because it seems to work well with the fluff, but in part to avoid the neverending patrol IC rolls. (the other thing is to find a way to better incorporate the SR success system into the matrix -- right now part of the reason for so many rolls, IMO, is because it doesn't take enough advantage of the net successes mechanic, and operates more like a traditional d20 type game)