[imperialus]

Well, after working through WAR! with my co-GM, we reached the conclusion that if you have military training and experience, you probably won't have any fun with this book.

...because the entire combat system of Shadowrun has always been a perfectly accurate simulation of a real life combat situation  

What the hell man?  What is it about War that has tweeked your nose in this particular fashion?  Speaking as someone who has a closet full of board wargames and 1:72 scale Napoleonics I can appreciate the desire for an accurate simulation, but seriously, Shadowrun is not that.  Never has been.

[Doc Chaos]

Which is why I said "probably". Some might be able to look past their experiences and training and enjoy the game. Other's can't. That's it, pure and simple.

[Mäx]

Which is why I said "probably". Some might be able to look past their experiences and training and enjoy the game. Other's can't. That's it, pure and simple.

BUt the failure to have fun for those who can't is purely their fault, not fault of the book.

[Kot]

Erm, no? A product has to target as many people as possible. So, if War! is good for some people, and others despise it, it's half of a failure. If it would be liked, and ignored fifty-fifty, then it wouldn't.

[imperialus]

Erm, no? A product has to target as many people as possible. So, if War! is good for some people, and others despise it, it's half of a failure. If it would be liked, and ignored fifty-fifty, then it wouldn't.

So you're saying that half of all Shadowrun players have combat experience "for realz?"  And that that half have somehow managed to overlook all the unrealistic aspects of Shadowruns combat system up until the very point in time that High Powered ammo (or whatever it is that was included in War) was introduced?  How is this even an argument?  What are you trying to say?  Christ on a pogo-stick, I'm in full agreement that War is far from the best Shadowrun book ever produced but this is just getting stupid.

[Kot]

I'm not talking about realism and combat experience, as i have none. Products? Targets? That's marketing. I have enough experience with that crap.

[imperialus]

I'm not talking about realism and combat experience, as i have none. Products? Targets? That's marketing. I have enough experience with that crap.

Fair enough, but lets be honest with ourselves here.  Shadowrun products have often targeted a small segment of the hobby.  I'd be willing to bet that 90% of Shadowrun games never leave Seattle.  For those GM's, what use is Feral Cities, Corp Enclaves, or even 2/3rds of Runner Havens.  War is a book that is focused on a particular niche within the 6th world, a place that a tiny fraction of campaigns will ever use.  In that respect at least it's no different than any other location book out there.

[wraith]

That would be a good argument, if it was just 'I won't use this setting.' that was the issue.  But I note that the larger part of what is making furor over War! is rules issues and the general production problems that have persisted in the line as a whole since 6WA.

[Mäx]

That would be a good argument, if it was just 'I won't use this setting.' that was the issue.  But I note that the larger part of what is making furor over War! is rules issues and the general production problems that have persisted in the line as a whole since 6WA.

Yes, but that's actual problems in the product and has nothing to do with the comment "if you have military training and experience, you probably won't have any fun with this book" witch is fully a problem caused by the reader inability to ingnore his own RL knowledge of related stuff, honestly i can't even figure out what part of the book is that statement aimed at.
Thats pretty much same as saying "If you know anythink about computer and related stuff, you won't have any fun with unwired" and is pretty much just as wrong as a generalization.

[ssjevot]

I'm a PhD student in Behavioral Neuroscience and despite nearly every cyberpunk product (Shadowrun included) getting all sorts of things wrong about how the brain and neurons in general work I still manage to enjoy them.  Besides you can just GM house-rule away the things you find ridiculous.

[Dead Monky]

I don't believe in magic and actually find the entire idea retarded and absurd, yet I play a mage.   

[Kot]

Fair enough, but lets be honest with ourselves here.  Shadowrun products have often targeted a small segment of the hobby.  I'd be willing to bet that 90% of Shadowrun games never leave Seattle.  For those GM's, what use is Feral Cities, Corp Enclaves, or even 2/3rds of Runner Havens.  War is a book that is focused on a particular niche within the 6th world, a place that a tiny fraction of campaigns will ever use.  In that respect at least it's no different than any other location book out there.

Wrong.
For my first game i chose TriCity just because that was an excuse to create it from scratch.

[PeterSmith]

Wrong.
For my first game i chose TriCity just because that was an excuse to create it from scratch.

So you're in the remaining ten percent.

[Mystic]

No matter WHAT RPG you may play, there always has to be a little "suspension of disbelief". The purpose of an RPG is to have fun within the confines of a particular universe or setting. I find that for the most part, too much realism does tend to be a big killjoy when it comes to games. While some revel in the detail of some settings, my friend Chuck for example loves Twilight 2000 because its basically modern warfare and is heavy into modern weapons. Others, just dont care and just want something cool.

As a peace officer and someone who has done a lot of work in private security, I still enjoy hearing about the (mis)adventures of the Lone Star/KE-types. Do I see glaring inaccuracies when it comes to things like due process, you betcha. Still like the game and I like to give the average RPG fan enough credit in that they KNOW that any RPG is an approximation, not recreation.

[Mäx]

As a peace officer and someone who has done a lot of work in private security, I still enjoy hearing about the (mis)adventures of the Lone Star/KE-types. Do I see glaring inaccuricies when it comes to things like due process, you betcha.

"due process" isn't exactly a word found in the Lone Star employees vocabulary