Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: Ed on <10-30-10/1247:04>
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When you all are reading published products and the product is referencing an Awakened NPC who is described as a mid-level initiate, what grade do you consider they're referencing? What, in your campaigns, is a mid-level initiate?
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5-7ish :-X I have nothing more to say.
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5-7ish :-X I have nothing more to say.
Whoa. :o
I'd go with 4-5, meself... But it all depends on where you set the High Bar. For instance, Jane "Frosty" Foster is said to be a high-level initiate, at least grade 8 (Dawn of the Artifacts: Dusk, p. 47). But you could also make her grade 10-11 if that's too low for you're type of play.
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4 is too low I think. Scanning the books quite a few npcs are 4th grade initiates. One is 7th iirc so between them is where I'd set the bar.
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Low, Medium and High are some of those great "weasel words" that let us decide it based on a game to game basis. I've had games where Karma was at a premium so a "mid range" initiate would be a 3 or 4 at best. In another game, karma was flowing like water, so "mid range" was 8 to 10 or so.
So, my feeling is that it's going to be defined by just how much karma is flowing in that particular game. In most of my games midrange is around 6 or so because players tend to rack up some spare karma with good ideas, good RP and some intense "between game" downtime play sessions with PCs being able to get to that level with a good bit of time, effort and work and but much higher being rather rare.
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There are six grades (for normal metahumans, anyway), right? So wouldn't it be:
1 - 2 = Low grade,
3 - 4 = Mid grade, and
5 - 6 = High grade?
Wouldn't that make a bit more sense from a pure numbers point of view?
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You do know that there's no limit on iniation grade.
You can iniae as many times as you can get karma for, just remember to raise your magic from time to time.
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But raising MAG is Karma expensive !
It takes nearly 200 Karma to raise a Mage with MAG 5 to Initiate 3 and MAG 9
I'd say:
1-3= Low
4-6= Mid
7+ = High Level Initiate
Hough!
Medicineman
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I tend to treat low grade initiates as Grade 1-2, the folks that have the most common metamagics in my campaigns but little else, things like masking(always a godsend in my games), and perhaps a second metamagic technique. This falls into the category of characters with prolly 200 karma or less.(Unless you are my wife, in which case you are absurdly well rounded at that point without having initiated. ;) )
Mid-grade initiates tend to range from 3-7. A variety of metamagic techniques, some very cool tricks etc. (Prime Runners here. Big and scary. Highest grade PC initiate I have had at my tables in running the game since SR1 is grade 5.)
Anything 8 or higher is high grade to me. (And almost certainly falls into the category of NPC.)
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You do know that there's no limit on iniation grade.
You can iniae as many times as you can get karma for, just remember to raise your magic from time to time.
The main limiting factor on Initiation in SR4 appears to be time. Yes, you can throw karma at it at gain pretty much any grade you want (see-sawing back and forth between boosting magic and grade past your magic level), but acquiring that kind of karma takes a good bit of time. Even with rapid earning (say an average of 10 karma per in and out-of-game week) getting to grade 6 will take 630 karma (504 if you use an ordeal) or 1 year and 2.5 months (11 and a half months with ordeals ignoring the time required to do the ordeal). In many games a 630 karma character would be near godhood even without initiation assuming they survived long enough to acquire it. At that point, they'd have to start purchasing magic points to go farther, so grade 7 would cost 210+35 (6 months time), 8 would be 240+40 (7 months), 9 would be 270+45 (about 8 months) and 10 would be 300+50 (just shy of a year) with each grade after that takes over a a year to acquire the karma for even at that accelerated rate.
So 4 years of massive and constant karma gain to the exclusion of all else just to get to grade 10 is a serious limiting factor.
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But you can only double your magic rating. So for most (99.999%) metahumans, that is the normal max of 6 and an initiate max of 12. As it says on page 198 of SR4A:
A character's initiate grade annot exceed her Magic attribute.
And further down the page, under INCREASED MAGIC:
An initiate's natural maximum for the Magic attribute is 6 + her grade of initiation. She will still have to pay normally to increase her Magic attribute.
So a mage or an adept can only ever have 12 magic, is what it looks like to me. Otherwise you start having all sorts of ridiculousness where a metahuman can walk around with a higher magic rating than a great dragon and blows up cities with a single spell with no drain.
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Umm... No, because the Grade is based off the current Magic Attribute. So, if a mage initiates to 2nd Grade, she can then make her Magic attribute 8. Then her maximum Initiate grade is 8. If you start with a Mage with a Magic of 3 and never increase it, then your maximum grade is 3.
As long as you keep increasing your Initiation and your Magic attribute, there's no limit to how high you can go. If Frosty, who's Harlequinn's pupil, is an 8th level Initiate, then it makes sense that it can go much higher than twelve, otherwise, Harlequinn and Ehran wouldn't be as "special".
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But you can only double your magic rating. So for most (99.999%) metahumans, that is the normal max of 6 and an initiate max of 12. As it says on page 198 of SR4A:
A character's initiate grade annot exceed her Magic attribute.
And further down the page, under INCREASED MAGIC:
An initiate's natural maximum for the Magic attribute is 6 + her grade of initiation. She will still have to pay normally to increase her Magic attribute.
So a mage or an adept can only ever have 12 magic, is what it looks like to me. Otherwise you start having all sorts of ridiculousness where a metahuman can walk around with a higher magic rating than a great dragon and blows up cities with a single spell with no drain.
Initiate grade cannot exceed magic rating, so a character with magic 6 can initiate to grade 6 (making them Magic 6 grade 6). Now they can buy 6 points of Magic since the natural maximum has gone up by one per initiate grade (making them Magic 12 grade 6). Then they can initiate 6 more times (Magic 12 grade 12) and purchase 6 MORE points of magic (magic 18 grade 12) than initiate 6 more times... and so on to infinity. The only thing stopping them from doing this in the RAW is the acquisition of karma and the time needed to acquire it. As I said earlier, just to get to grade 10 magic 10 is 1820 (around 1,500 if you take an ordeal for each grade) and years of work to the exclusion of all other attributes and skills. That's a HUGE pile of karma in most games.
(Edited for a little math error)
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But you can only double your magic rating. So for most (99.999%) metahumans, that is the normal max of 6 and an initiate max of 12. As it says on page 198 of SR4A:
A character's initiate grade annot exceed her Magic attribute.
And further down the page, under INCREASED MAGIC:
An initiate's natural maximum for the Magic attribute is 6 + her grade of initiation. She will still have to pay normally to increase her Magic attribute.
So a mage or an adept can only ever have 12 magic, is what it looks like to me. Otherwise you start having all sorts of ridiculousness where a metahuman can walk around with a higher magic rating than a great dragon and blows up cities with a single spell with no drain.
Not quite.
The important thing to remember is that Initiation doesn't automatically raise Magic (like it used to). Your Initiation Grade is limited by your Magic rating, yes, but remember that as Grade goes up Magic may also go up.
Starting character, Magic 6. If I really wanted to, I could Initiate six times and never raise that Magic score, just doing it for the Metamagics. If I wanted to Initiate a seventh time, though, I'd have to raise my Magic attribute (by spending karma, which is an expenditure that's completely separate from the points I spent to Initiate). At the point I want to buy my Magic up, I have to then check the "natural maximum for Magic is 6 + grade" part, realize that I'm in the clear, and then spend the points.
The checks/balances come in to make people to -- eventually -- spend a crapton of karma on Initiating and a crapton of karma on raising Magic, not just doing one or the other.
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Sorry about super big font, I was trying to make it easier to read in the quote and erred on the too big side.
What you are essentially saying is that the limit for initiate grade is your initiate grade plus some small modifier. In philosophy, or rather in constructing a logical argument (which is used in philosophy or debate) this would be called a circular argument (circular initiation, in this case). This makes no sense, and ensures that longer lived folks, like the Immortal elves, can, with one spell, blow up cities, as they have millenia to apply to their initiation. Sure, the downcycle severely constrained their studies, but they can effectively kill any being on the planet by thinking about it (ritual magic use), slap a great dragon silly, and never, ever be worried about the coming of the Horrors, because they can just cast a single "Kill all Horrors" spell with an AOE of the planet.
This does not make sense. Even allowing that PC's will never get that kind of time, or karma, to build up to those levels, internal consistency breaks down if the hard limit is not used. Also, all the absolutely absurd ideas floating about regarding things like Possesion mages become far more plausible.
Hell, you want to see disgusting? A Nosferatu infected Possesion mage gorged on stolen Essence can, without raising magic above 6 with initiation, have an 18 magic rating, summon a force 36 spirit and channel it to grant him +36 to his physical attributes, sustain a reaction boosting spell, and then walk around with 72 hardened armor and 18 points of regeneration a turn. This is extreme and crazy and what you are saying that it can effectively be even higher through infinite initiation?
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I agree with Cat, FJ and Critias: Your initiate grade is limited by your current magic rating, and your magic rating is limited to [6 + current IG]. So, you can effectively initiate to an unlimited number of ranks if you had the time and karma.
Course, if anyone disagrees, they can always feel free to not use that rule in their game, I can definitely see why someone would want to hard cap that - especially in a long running campaign where someone might actually get enough time & karma to exceed 12 magic. However, I am also aware of some GMs (not me) who give people a full 6 Magic to start [minus essence losses] if they play an awakened character (can you imagine starting with a magic of 6 for only the 5BP it cost you to become an adept at character creation?). Anyway, point is" "to each their own" :)
At my game table though, we go with "Your initiate grade is limited by your current magic rating, and your magic rating is limited to [6 + current IG]. So, you can effectively initiate to an unlimited number of ranks if you had the time and karma."
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I understand that it's a circular limitation, but it is what it is. I know all about logical fallacies, but they don't necessarily apply to creating rules in an RPG. Just read the rules. You can dislike them, or you can dislike the theoretical extremes that they open up, but that doesn't change what they say. Initiate Grade is limited by Magic, Magic may increase as Initiate Grade goes up, and the end result is if you've got an unlimited supply of karma and time for training -- yeah -- you've got an awful lot of room for growth. That's just the end result, though. The initial result is that it requires a lot of karma to increase in raw potency as a spellcaster, because you've got to initiate and you've got to separately increase your Magic attribute (and, in a fashion, albeit a circular one, your ability to initiate is limited by your magic, which is limited by your ability to initiate). The end result is a ton of karma flying around to only make your character better at one thing, instead of rounding them out as a character...but the key is that the two karma expenditures are separate from each other, you don't get the free magic point with initiation, any more. That's a key difference between editions that quite a few players and GMs, in my experience, forget (and thus imbalance things pretty quickly).
I could understand a house rule where a GM wanted to cap Magic at 12 (and Initiation at 6, as such), because -- and I'll admit I've said so for a long time, and will continue gripin' despite being a freelancer now -- I hate that most folks have a hard cap on how good they can get, and mages don't. I don't see it mattering in most campaigns and with most characters, because no one's likely to ever get the unlimited karma, resources, training time, etc, required to really exploit it, but on principle I dislike having a cap on most attributes and abilities, and not on Magic (and Magic alone). In theory, I might dislike it about Technomancers, too, but I don't remember if their mumbo-jumbo is capped or not (because I've yet to run into one in a game). So I'd be fine with a house rule of limiting Initiation Grade to your natural Magic attribute (IE, 6)...but it would be just that, a house rule.
While it's not directly related to this rules issue, you're absolutely correct in your logical extrapolation of what IE's should be capable of, albeit it's an extrapolation based on the notions that they use magic the same way characters schooled solely in The Sixth World do (and they don't, but it's a reasonable model to use, regardless). This is precisely why, traditionally speaking, you don't see stats for Immortal Elves -- whether magical or otherwise, anything created with near-infinite levels of karma and resources is going to be nasty, of course. That's part of why they don't show up as the bad guys of every adventure, just like the players shouldn't be going toe-to-toe with Lofwyr real often, or something.
On an IE note, I have to ask, but why do you think the same doesn't apply to Horrors, Great Dragons, and other threats with lots and lots of time to earn and invest lots and lots of karma? When one remembers that most Great Dragons are older than most Immortal Elves, why is it you seem to think IE's can smack them around with impunity when, generally speaking, anything an IE can do, a GD can probably do (better)?
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But you can only double your magic rating. So for most (99.999%) metahumans, that is the normal max of 6 and an initiate max of 12. As it says on page 198 of SR4A:
A character's initiate grade annot exceed her Magic attribute.
And further down the page, under INCREASED MAGIC:
An initiate's natural maximum for the Magic attribute is 6 + her grade of initiation. She will still have to pay normally to increase her Magic attribute.
So a mage or an adept can only ever have 12 magic, is what it looks like to me. Otherwise you start having all sorts of ridiculousness where a metahuman can walk around with a higher magic rating than a great dragon and blows up cities with a single spell with no drain.
Next time could you maybe make sure you actually understand what your quoting before posting it with size 9000+ font.
As per the quotes you provided:
Max initiation grade is your current magic score
Max magic 6+ your initiation grade
So with enought karma i can be 100th grade iniate, i just need to raise my magic to 100.
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Looking at the books, different authors seem to have different scale.
According to Harlequin's Back, Harlequin "is self-initiated to a double-digit grade", Jane "Frosty" Foster is grade 2 and Darke is grade 4.
In Threats, Darke is grade 6. The average priest in the Blood Gestalt has grade 3 (the Gestalt itself acting like a mage with a virtual initiate grade of 30).
The seven top members of the Black Lodge have achieved grades of 13 or higher. Black Lodge leader in each country is said to be between 10 and 12.
Corporate Download has Knight Errant Firewatch awakened team member and Novatech Black Alpha combat mages at least grade 3. Novatech Black Omega has a dozen members, at least grade 5 (with at least two of them "skilled in cybermantic magic").
Per CDL also, Aztechnology blood mages should be initiates, minimum grade 8.
Dragons of the Sixth World says all great dragons are initiates, "usually Grade 10 or higher, except for very young great dragons" (which should apply to Masaru).
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I could understand a house rule where a GM wanted to cap Magic at 12 (and Initiation at 6, as such), because -- and I'll admit I've said so for a long time, and will continue gripin' despite being a freelancer now -- I hate that most folks have a hard cap on how good they can get, and mages don't. I don't see it mattering in most campaigns and with most characters, because no one's likely to ever get the unlimited karma, resources, training time, etc, required to really exploit it, but on principle I dislike having a cap on most attributes and abilities, and not on Magic (and Magic alone). In theory, I might dislike it about Technomancers, too, but I don't remember if their mumbo-jumbo is capped or not (because I've yet to run into one in a game). So I'd be fine with a house rule of limiting Initiation Grade to your natural Magic attribute (IE, 6)...but it would be just that, a house rule.
I cannot stress how much I agree with this. And I've handled it "both" ways, capping magic and initiation and removing the caps on skills while relaxing them on attributes (using the old SR3 "superhuman" optional rules and allowing double the attribute) while removing the "maximum modification to 1.5X attribute max." Both systems have merit, as does mixing them. For instance, even playing "as close to vanilla as possible" I typically ignore the "Max modified attribute" bit because I feel it makes no sense given the hard cap imposed by essence; if you want to dedicate 5.99 points of essence into having a Body Att so high you can take a direct hit from a naval cannon shell and wander off with a hang nail and to buy new clothes, that's fine, you "pay" for it in not being able to do anything else with your essence.
I've also had a good bit of success with what my players call "tracked initiation." When they Initiate they can either dedicate it to a raising their Magic Attribute Max by a point (and then buy the Attribute up) or take a metamagic but not both. That means they can initiate to some seriously high grades (if they so choose and live long enough and play long enough) but their power levels reamain somewhat manageable for a very long time, usually longer than the life of the character. This allows the player to cap themselves. They can, for instance, take 6 metamagics and be done entirely forever or take 3 and 3 and still have 6 grades to work towards with a possible Magic of 9.
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I could understand a house rule where a GM wanted to cap Magic at 12 (and Initiation at 6, as such), because -- and I'll admit I've said so for a long time, and will continue gripin' despite being a freelancer now -- I hate that most folks have a hard cap on how good they can get, and mages don't. I don't see it mattering in most campaigns and with most characters, because no one's likely to ever get the unlimited karma, resources, training time, etc, required to really exploit it, but on principle I dislike having a cap on most attributes and abilities, and not on Magic (and Magic alone). In theory, I might dislike it about Technomancers, too, but I don't remember if their mumbo-jumbo is capped or not (because I've yet to run into one in a game). So I'd be fine with a house rule of limiting Initiation Grade to your natural Magic attribute (IE, 6)...but it would be just that, a house rule.
What he said. Completely Agree 100% - this is just wrong on principal.
And as a side note to answer your "not sure" bit - by the RAW technomancers are currently "unlimited" with their submersion/Resonance like Mages/Adepts are with their initiation/Magic.
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Sure, in theory there are IE's out there who are a match for dragons. Really, is making a deal with Harlequin any better than making a deal with a dragon? From the little I've seen of IE's in the source material, they are dragons without the massive body. They live forever, have effectively unlimited resources and play a very long and intricate game instead of just bashing their way to what they want. They have a racial Charisma boost, so they're better than dragons at recruiting flunkies. The way I see it, though, when you've had a few Ages to study and become a massive magic stud, you've learned the following:
1. Using ridiculously high powered spells draws a lot of attention.
2. There's always someone bigger than you.
3. That's whose attention you'll be drawing.
4. When you've got the time to get that powerful, you've got the time to get things done. There are only a few good reasons to use massive resources to get things done faster.
5. When you live infinitely long, Murphy's Law comes at you an infinite number of times. High power critical glitches suck.
Corollary to 5: The more people you kill, the more times their grandkids come looking for revenge at the exact moment you're tired, hungry, pissed, drained and have your defenses down.
6: Bigger power=bigger consequences.
So yeah, go on a rampage with +36 to your stats. Just remember that when Posession wears off, or someone pulling the same trick banishes your rider, the entire Ares and UCAS military presence in Seattle will still be there bearing down on you, including that Sammie with just under 16 Essence worth of Cyberwear (7.99 cyber, 7.98 bio base, both deltaware or some such). Oh, and try not to be too evil. It'd be a shame to have all that power turn Toxic.
Edit: See also the Corporate Court's orbital strike weapons and/or the movie Akira for a good example of how cybertech level humans deal with out of control demigods.
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Okay, consider this: Dunkelzahn was cowed by Harlequinn's magical power. So, do you think a 12th level initiate would be able to intimidate a Great Dragon?
Yes, it's incredibly crazy for really high magic and initiation. But, magic's only been around in the sixth world for sixty years. The main restriction is the lifespan of the mage. At MOST, a non-immortal spike baby elf has been studying magic for those sixty years could, theoretically earn 40 Karma a year, and pump it all into his magic, giving making him a 23rd level Initiate with Magic 23. So it is possible. However, getting there is another story. One that would involve Immortal Elves, Dragons, Metaplanes and the Enemy, more than likely. Now, your typical human mage in 2072 that's been running for 10 years and focusing entire on her magic? She's probably going to be slinging 11th level Initiation with a Magic of 11.
This is all if they ignore everything else. Not increasing their skills and anything else they could also improve. Which may hamper them in other areas. Remember, it's not gaining power that's tough in the SR universe, it's keeping it. And if your so focused on your magic to the exclusion of all else, the lucky street tough with a zip gun may blow your brains out when you're hitting the local stuffer shack for a study break.
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This is all if they ignore everything else. Not increasing their skills and anything else they could also improve. Which may hamper them in other areas. Remember, it's not gaining power that's tough in the SR universe, it's keeping it. And if your so focused on your magic to the exclusion of all else, the lucky street tough with a zip gun may blow your brains out when you're hitting the local stuffer shack for a study break.
Which is why you'll never see Harlequin and the top tier of the Black Lodge at the Stuffer Shack.
A bit more seriously, its 400+ Karma just to get to Initation 6, Magic 12. 350 if you're in a group and going through an ordeal for every level of initiation. No new spells. No increased Sorcery Skill, or any other skill for that matter. Keeping up with other Runner abilities you need probably puts this level of power more in the 700-800 Karma range. And that's for PC's/Prime Runners. Off camera NPC's don't necessarily progress at anything like this speed.
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I'm curious, how many people use the optional rule that Adepts (and Mystic Adepts) can choose to gain a Power Point rather than a meta-magic technique when initiating?
Furthermore, I'm curious - If one were to limit initiation to 6 ranks only and have Magic hard capped at 12 as Gun suggests, would you opt to use said optional rule then?
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I use the optional power point rule. I have no desire to limit Magic ratings or initiation (or their matrix equivalents).
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Which is why you'll never see Harlequin and the top tier of the Black Lodge at the Stuffer Shack.
A bit more seriously, its 400+ Karma just to get to Initation 6, Magic 12. 350 if you're in a group and going through an ordeal for every level of initiation. No new spells. No increased Sorcery Skill, or any other skill for that matter. Keeping up with other Runner abilities you need probably puts this level of power more in the 700-800 Karma range. And that's for PC's/Prime Runners. Off camera NPC's don't necessarily progress at anything like this speed.
In my experience, in many cases but not all, the game starts to break down in the 300 karma range and enters a terminal implosion at 600 thanks to player psychology. Non-magical characters are sitting on a pile of money and/or toys at that level, their skills are getting into the top ranges for all of them their specialized field and likely a few others. At that point it begins to enter "AD&D Paladin on a Bridge" turf where they have to face more and more outlandishly powerful foes compared to what they've always seen to maintain a level of challenge. SR3 was rife with it but SR4A seems a little better at this with the skill caps, though it still begins to enter that phase around the same point.
By the time "super-initiation" becomes a problem for PCs the game is at the "dealt with a dragon and killed his brother" phase already.
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I'm curious, how many people use the optional rule that Adepts (and Mystic Adepts) can choose to gain a Power Point rather than a meta-magic technique when initiating?
Furthermore, I'm curious - If one were to limit initiation to 6 ranks only and have Magic hard capped at 12 as Gun suggests, would you opt to use said optional rule then?
I do ,and I would opt for it
Hough!
Medicineman
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I'm curious, how many people use the optional rule that Adepts (and Mystic Adepts) can choose to gain a Power Point rather than a meta-magic technique when initiating?
Furthermore, I'm curious - If one were to limit initiation to 6 ranks only and have Magic hard capped at 12 as Gun suggests, would you opt to use said optional rule then?
Never had to decide either way, since I haven't run 4A yet, but its kind of a scary thought. Increasing Magic from 5 to 6 is 30 Karma, Initiation is <30 Karma up to level 6. So its a cheaper way to get a power point than raising attributes and a concentrated, Init 6 Mag 12 character is going to have 18 Power Points worth of stuff.
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Init 6 Mag 12 character is going to have 18 Power Points worth of stuff.
Kalculate the Karma Cost for that Char(just for MAG and In.)
with an IMMENSE Dance
Medicineman
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I'm curious, how many people use the optional rule that Adepts (and Mystic Adepts) can choose to gain a Power Point rather than a meta-magic technique when initiating?
Furthermore, I'm curious - If one were to limit initiation to 6 ranks only and have Magic hard capped at 12 as Gun suggests, would you opt to use said optional rule then?
Never had to decide either way, since I haven't run 4A yet, but its kind of a scary thought. Increasing Magic from 5 to 6 is 30 Karma, Initiation is <30 Karma up to level 6. So its a cheaper way to get a power point than raising attributes and a concentrated, Init 6 Mag 12 character is going to have 18 Power Points worth of stuff.
You don't get an Adept Power Point for Initiating to a higher level. An Adept with Magic 6, Init 12 would still only have 6 Power Points to spend on Adept powers.
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I'm curious, how many people use the optional rule that Adepts (and Mystic Adepts) can choose to gain a Power Point rather than a meta-magic technique when initiating?
Furthermore, I'm curious - If one were to limit initiation to 6 ranks only and have Magic hard capped at 12 as Gun suggests, would you opt to use said optional rule then?
Never had to decide either way, since I haven't run 4A yet, but its kind of a scary thought. Increasing Magic from 5 to 6 is 30 Karma, Initiation is <30 Karma up to level 6. So its a cheaper way to get a power point than raising attributes and a concentrated, Init 6 Mag 12 character is going to have 18 Power Points worth of stuff.
You don't get an Adept Power Point for Initiating to a higher level. An Adept with Magic 6, Init 12 would still only have 6 Power Points to spend on Adept powers.
Yes you do, if the optional rule voydangel was asking about is used and you take a power point instead of a metamagic at every initiation.
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Oops... missed the line about the optional rule. My bad. Blame it on NaNoWriMo and sugar high from leftover Halloween candy. ;)
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Yeah, the question was how we felt about an optional rule whereby you could get a Power Point instead of metamagic. For the first few grades it looks benign enough. Taken to its logical extreme, though, you get some pretty hefty Adept powers, most of which are limited by Magic (so 12 levels of a given power). Sure, its expensive at 350-500 Karma to get there but its pretty powerful, too. . .
I guess the real question is whether or not an Init 6, Mag 12, Power Point 18 (12 without the optional) Adept is grossly overpowered, comparable, or underpowered next to an Init 6, Mag 12 mage. That's a little harder to define.
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Yeah, the question was how we felt about an optional rule whereby you could get a Power Point instead of metamagic. For the first few grades it looks benign enough. Taken to its logical extreme, though, you get some pretty hefty Adept powers, most of which are limited by Magic (so 12 levels of a given power). Sure, its expensive at 350-500 Karma to get there but its pretty powerful, too. . .
I guess the real question is whether or not an Init 6, Mag 12, Power Point 18 (12 without the optional) Adept is grossly overpowered, comparable, or underpowered next to an Init 6, Mag 12 mage. That's a little harder to define.
"Physical" Adepts have had problems in almost every edition. Out of the box in SR1 they were gods, in SR2 they were wimps in SR3 they were difficult to challenge and in 4 a well built adept is frightening. And then imagine, if you will, an Initiated adept with 6 more points of magic burning them for cyber and bio.... Adepts have just as much potential for frightening power as any mage, and maybe even more so, since they can easily "double-dip" into mundane and magical resources that synergize well in many cases whereas a good bit of cyber and bioware won't really boost the mage's potential as much.
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Ooo, hadn't thought of it that way. Twelve Power Points and six Essence worth of 'ware. Eep!
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Actually, it's not exactly six Essence of 'ware, but six power points of abilities that mimic what 'ware can do. Because if you spend 5 Essence on 'ware, you're magic drops to one and you maximum Initiation level drops to 1 as well. Meaning you'd lose all those power points.
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Actually, it's not exactly six Essence of 'ware, but six power points of abilities that mimic what 'ware can do. Because if you spend 5 Essence on 'ware, you're magic drops to one and you maximum Initiation level drops to 1 as well. Meaning you'd lose all those power points.
The key would be using ware that doesn't have an adept version OR that is "cheaper" when bought as ware than with power points or that push you beyond what you can do with just power points (for instance, using pheromones to augment maxed out social adept abilities). In the RAW this can get insane without the caps, and even with the artificial caps applied, someone determined to min-max with it can still build a hulking adept monster with heavy ware and a full compliment of adept abilities all working together since an adept can ALSO buy up the magic score as they initiate as long as they have a "natural" magic of 1 they can always continually cycle between initiating and buying a point of magic and get magic lost to ware back.
Edit: Forgot the other scary part. They can then use their ware for astral combat judging by the cyberzombie rules.
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Actually, it's not exactly six Essence of 'ware, but six power points of abilities that mimic what 'ware can do. Because if you spend 5 Essence on 'ware, you're magic drops to one and you maximum Initiation level drops to 1 as well. Meaning you'd lose all those power points.
Edit for clarification: Max Magic=6-Essence Loss+Initiation
Max Initiation=Current Magic
So if I have Magic 6, initiate 6 times, buy up to magic 12 and take 5.x of cyberwear, Max Magic=6, Initiation=6 (350-400 Karma and mass nuyen)
Based on the optional rule of trading Metamagic for a Power Point, Power Points=Magic+Initiation
In this example, Power Points=12 with 5.01-5.99 Essence loss from 'ware.
Do not like.
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Actually, it's not exactly six Essence of 'ware, but six power points of abilities that mimic what 'ware can do. Because if you spend 5 Essence on 'ware, you're magic drops to one and you maximum Initiation level drops to 1 as well. Meaning you'd lose all those power points.
Edit for clarification: Max Magic=6-Essence Loss+Initiation
Max Initiation=Current Magic
So if I have Magic 6, initiate 6 times, buy up to magic 12 and take 5.x of cyberwear, Max Magic=6, Initiation=6 (350-400 Karma and mass nuyen)
Based on the optional rule of trading Metamagic for a Power Point, Power Points=Magic+Initiation
In this example, Power Points=12 with 5.01-5.99 Essence loss from 'ware.
Do not like.
A character’s initiate grade cannot exceed her Magic attribute. If a character’s Magic is reduced below her initiate grade, she loses that level of initiation and the metamagic she gained with it.
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A character’s initiate grade cannot exceed her Magic attribute. If a character’s Magic is reduced below her initiate grade, she loses that level of initiation and the metamagic she gained with it.
Agreed. However, a character's Magic may exceed her Initiation grade and then be lowered to be equal to her initiation grade without effecting initiation grade. A Magic 6 character can have Initiation 6 regardless of whether or not he once had Magic 12. As this theorietical cyberadept grows he has to be sure that there's always room to keep his Magic one point higher than his Initiation Grade. He doesn't have to buy it immediately, but he does have to have room to fill Magic=Initiation Grade+1 at some point in the future.
Put another way:
At character creation, cyberadept has Magic 5, buys 4 Essence worth of 'ware. Now he has Magic 1. He has the potential here to spend 25 BP to get Magic to 2.
Later he pays Karma to get Initiation Grade 1. He can now buy his Magic up to 3 if he wants (paying for it as an increase from 5 to 6 then from 6 to seven).
He gets another point of 'ware, reducing his Magic 3 to Magic 2.
Later he gets Initiation Grade 2, buys his magic back up to 3 (6-Essence loss+initiation, paying for it as an increase from 7 to 8)
Now he goes back and forth, buying one grade of initiation, then the point of magic to fill it through grades 4-6, ending with Initiation 6 and Magic 7.
Adds .99 worth of 'ware flushing his essence down the toilet.
He now had Magic 6, Initiation 6 and 5.99 Essence worth of 'ware without his initiation ever having been higher than his Magic.
And in the case of the optional rule of Power Points instead of Metamagic he also has 12 points of Adept powers, supplementing the ones that are maxed out with 'ware that enhances them still further.
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Actually, it's not exactly six Essence of 'ware, but six power points of abilities that mimic what 'ware can do. Because if you spend 5 Essence on 'ware, you're magic drops to one and you maximum Initiation level drops to 1 as well. Meaning you'd lose all those power points.
Edit for clarification: Max Magic=6-Essence Loss+Initiation
Max Initiation=Current Magic
So if I have Magic 6, initiate 6 times, buy up to magic 12 and take 5.x of cyberwear, Max Magic=6, Initiation=6 (350-400 Karma and mass nuyen)
Based on the optional rule of trading Metamagic for a Power Point, Power Points=Magic+Initiation
In this example, Power Points=12 with 5.01-5.99 Essence loss from 'ware.
Do not like.
A character’s initiate grade cannot exceed her Magic attribute. If a character’s Magic is reduced below her initiate grade, she loses that level of initiation and the metamagic she gained with it.
You're mathematically off on this one. The character's Grade has NOT exceeded their magic score, they are even.
Starting Character Magic 6
Character initiates 6 times: Magic 6 Grade 6
Character buys 6 points of magic: Magic 12 Grade 6
Character buys 5.01 points of cyber/bioware: Magic 6 Grade 6.
Character now has 5+ essence in ware a grade 6 initiation and a magic 6 meaning they are STILL even with their magic attribute to their ini grade. If they get LESS than 5 points of ware, they can continue to initiate because they have magic 7 Grade 6, can initiate, buy another point of magic and initiate again, then buy another point of magic and so on into infinity.
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Okay, yes, if they spent the Karma to increase their magic to 12, then reduced it, then they would still have those 12 points. Sorry 'bout that.
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No worries, man. Sure its silly, but the over the top cases illustrate the smaller point. Having one or two extra Power Points probably won't stick out. Having six, or a full sammie's 'ware in addition to the full normal power points does. The cyberware thing probably wouldn't happen but its a good example of what an adept could do with six extra power points, since most people have a solid image of what a Sammie's loadout is.
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No worries, man. Sure its silly, but the over the top cases illustrate the smaller point. Having one or two extra Power Points probably won't stick out. Having six, or a full sammie's 'ware in addition to the full normal power points does. The cyberware thing probably wouldn't happen but its a good example of what an adept could do with six extra power points, since most people have a solid image of what a Sammie's loadout is.
In a number of games I've been in it was not uncommon for Initiated mages and adepts to have some ware floating around to augment their "specialization." While I've never been in a game with a monster that's gone full cyber and full magic before, I've seen some riding the edge with their initiation grades and essence to max out their capabilities after doing s through "normal" straight-out magical means.
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Oh, sure. I'm looking at doing that with my Social Adept. For 30 Karma and a 80,000 nuyen I can stuff Tailored Pheromones 3, Extended Voice Range (or whatever the one is that gives +1 to social rolls when speaking) and Mnemonic Enhancement 3 in him without sacrificing my 5 Power Points worth of starting Adept goodness. Should I be able to take that sixth power point for 10-13 karma (Initiation)? I'd say no.
Why Mnemonic enhancer, you may ask. Well, he's got Linguistics (Adept Power), Linguistics (Quality), Multitasking and Sustenance. So on a given day of downtime he can roll to learn several languages, 2 per day per multi-tasking thread just by keeping foreign language trids running on his commlink during all waking hours. That's anywhere from 4 to 10 per day depending on the GM's call. Each one is level 1, plus 2 for Linguistics (Quality) +3 for Mnemonic Enhancer. Net result: near fluency in any language with an entertainment industry at no Karma cost. . .except the 30 Karma to raise magic then sacrifice it on the altar of progress.
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Trouble is, adept metamagic mostly sucks, and there isn't much of it. If you don't allow the power points, they all max out metamagic after just a few initiation grades.
And I don't think (relatively) cheap power points are such a big deal. In the time it takes to earn an initiate grade or two, a samurai can easily afford something much better than you can get with 1-2 power points (like muscle toner 4). Eventually the 'ware gets a lot more expensive, but eventually the adept needs to start buying up magic instead of grades. It should work out.
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Trouble is, adept metamagic mostly sucks, and there isn't much of it.
For the record, I'm workin' on that. ;)
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My personal take on the matter is that there should just be an adept only meta-magic called "Gain a power point", which is effectively identical to the optional rule. I like it this way, but I can totally see why some people wouldn't want that, as it tends to give adepts a pretty quick "return on investment" from karma early in the characters lifespan.
If, however, you are in the "don't like that optional rule" camp, then you could just charge a little extra for it... something like: "Current Initiate grade x 3" karma (in addition to the cost of gaining that rank of initiation).
So, 1st IG: 13k choose "Gain a power point" metamagic = 3k, total cost = 16k
2nd IG: 16k + 6k for the PP, total = 22k
3rd IG: 19k + 9k for the PP, total = 28k
4th IG: 22k + 12k for the PP, total = 34k
5th = 40, 6th = 46, 52, 58, etc. etc.
I suppose the other option is to make an adept only meta-magic called "Gain a power point" and allow this optional rule as well:
Optional Rule : Learning Meta Magic
If the gamemaster approves, Awakened characters can
learn metamagic techniques through other methods, in addition
to the one they acquire at each grade of initiation. It costs
15 Karma to learn a metamagic technique outside of initiation.
The maximum number of metamagic techniques that may be
learned is equal to the character’s Magic + initiation grade.
I suppose one final option might be to give adepts 1/2 (.5) of a power point when they initiate...
Anyone else use a house rule that is somewhere in between the RAW and the optional rule?
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Each one is level 1, plus 2 for Linguistics (Quality) +3 for Mnemonic Enhancer. Net result: near fluency in any language with an entertainment industry at no Karma cost. . .except the 30 Karma to raise magic then sacrifice it on the altar of progress.
Sadly doesn't really work like that, the Mnemonic enchanter does help you with test to see if you understand what someone is saying, but it doesn't actually raise the skil so its no help for your social adept if he's trying to infuence someone in a foreign language (which limits your social skills to your rating in the language used)
And while the Linguistict quality does actually raise the skill, the augmented max for skills is 1,5*current rating, meaning you need the language at least rating 2 to gain any benefit and at rating 4 to get the full +2.
I suggest talking with your GM about that second point, as i personally feel that Linguistics quality should ingnore the augmented skill limit as it's pretty much useless otherwise. Boosting your langue skill for 4 to 6 isn't nearly as important as boosting it from 1 to3 would be.
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Good point on the Mnemonic for sure. The other I'll bring up at some point when it seems important, say the first time we have significant downtime.
Edit: I should take better notes. With some reworking I found my original design.
Tailored Pheromones 3
Vocal Range Enhancer
Genetic Optimization CHA
Enhanced Pheromone Receptors 2
Clocks in at a slightly more intimidating 30 Karma (buying Magic 5 to 6), 110,000 nuyen and 1 point of essence exactly. The actual implants will most likely be picked up piecemeal but the end result is an extra point of Charisma (available to purchase, not included in Karma cost), a burning desire to wear a respirator in crowds and a social skill bonus equivalent to a 2600 nuyen emotitoy. Its also every Social and Charisma augmentation I could readily find for active use rather than defense. Actually buying that 9th point of Charisma (for an elf) is another 45 Karma.
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If you start with a Dryad, or make a Level 2 or 3 changeling, you can grab Glamour as well which is worth +3 more to social tests. And if you wanna go crazy (and are willing to take a few minor setbacks) you can grab the increased olfactory changeling effect as well which gives an additional +2.
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Yep, he's a Dryad, which means his neighborhood has almost as much detail in the backplot info as he does.
If you want to be truly gross start with a Dryad, add Surge III for Metagenic Attribute (CHA), Vomeralnasal Organ (the olfactory you mentioned above) and 15 points of negative qualities and Genetic Heritage or Exceptional Attribute (CHA), raising the elf/dryad's CHA to 4 min, 10 max, 15 augmented max, not that any augmentations directly boost Charisma and providing +5 to non-intimidation social skills when you're face to face. It also sets you back 70-80 BP. The character I'm currently playing has none of these except for being a Dryad.
Genetic Heritage eats .16 essence but is, ironically, the only option for Mages and/or Adepts to keep their Positive Qualities at or below 35.
But I think we've long since drifted WAY off topic, so I'll let it go.
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There is one way to increase your charisma score directly. Increase attribute spell can increase any physical or mental attribute. If you build a runner TEAM the numbers can get staggering. Imagine a troll tank character with willpower upped to the aug max, with armor spells applied, and active counterspelling. It's not just about what a character can do individually for a run but rather what they can accomplish together.
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Entirely true, I just tend play a face because I'm basically 4th edition Magic and Matrix stupid.
Also keep in mind that a Face with 9 CHA and a modified max of 15 needs six hits on a force 15 spell to max out. Doable but not easy.
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Also keep in mind that a Face with 9 CHA and a modified max of 15 needs six hits on a force 15 spell to max out. Doable but not easy.
Only needs to be a force 9 spell, not that that makes it much easier, but at least a non initiate mage can cast the spell.
And considering the spell has only 2 drain, the mage can try to get those successes as many times as she wants to ;)
Yea, finally wound a way to break the 50 die barrier for social skill diepool, with out using social modifiers(never noticed before how low the drain of increase attribute is)
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The Force of the spell must equal or exceed the (augmented) value of the attribute being affected. SR4A - 208
I read that to mean that the Force must be equal or greater than the attribute will be after the spell is cast. You seem to be reading it as the force must equal or exceed the attribute before the spell is cast.
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I'm with Mäx on this one. The way I read the spell is that it's the attribute before the spell is cast. Mostly because you have no idea what the new value will be since it's determined by the number of hits you get on the spell.
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In other words, if you have a natural 6, augmented to 9 attribute, the force required is 9, not it's natural 6.
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In other words, if you have a natural 6, augmented to 9 attribute, the force required is 9, not it's natural 6.
Correct.
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I'm not even sure which side I would come down on if I had to make a GM call. The main fairness/unfairness consideration in my mind is that a starting, 6 magic, character can conceivably raise an attribute from 6 to 12, provided the target's augmented max is that high (and he could get the hits), but not raise a 7 to an 8. Especially in this example, where an Adept could theoretically sustain it himself with Living Focus. Living Focus can only Sustain a spell of force<=Adept's Magic. So if you have an extremely high augmented max, it winds up being beneficial to keep it lower so your Mage can boost it and so the Adept can sustain it. Of course if you can get your Mage to blow Karma on a Sustaining Focus, that's his problem. I'd love it if an Adept with Living Focus could pass the spell off to a Sustaining Focus but that seems like stretching the rules until they snap.
Edit: Elves are a perfect example. Keep CHA at 6 and it can be boosted to 12 by a starting Mage. Buy it to 7 or 8 and it can't.
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I'm not even sure which side I would come down on if I had to make a GM call. The main fairness/unfairness consideration in my mind is that a starting, 6 magic, character can conceivably raise an attribute from 6 to 12, provided the target's augmented max is that high (and he could get the hits), but not raise a 7 to an 8.
Whut, a Magic 6 mage can cast spells up to force 12, so i don't get what you mean whit this.
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I'm not even sure which side I would come down on if I had to make a GM call. The main fairness/unfairness consideration in my mind is that a starting, 6 magic, character can conceivably raise an attribute from 6 to 12, provided the target's augmented max is that high (and he could get the hits), but not raise a 7 to an 8.
Whut, a Magic 6 mage can cast spells up to force 12, so i don't get what you mean whit this.
Sorry, let me rephrase that. I meant Force 6.
So a starting character with Magic 3 can boost a 6 to a 12 if he can get the hits (Force 6)
or a Magic 6 character can do it and take only stun drain.
Whereas a Magic 3 character can't raise an attirbute from 7 to 8 and a Magic 6 character takes physical drain to do so. It just seems to me that Force should have some sort of influence on the maximum you can go to.
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Well, yeah, it does. If you cast a Force 3 spell, then the maximum number of hits you can possibly get is 3.
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Another thing to consider: The Drain Value is only ½F–2! If you base the Force on initial attribute value, a magician can increase an attribute from 7 to 14 with only 1 DV. Bumping troll Body from 9 to 15 is only 2 DV.
And speaking of Body, how do you figure the Force for attributes with partial augmentation, like Body with Bone Lacing? That has a +1 to +3 augmentation only for the purpose of resisting damage. It's easy to figure if you use the spell Force as the augmented maximum.
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Even though Bone Lacing is partial augmentation, I'd rule that you'd go by the augmented value for the spell. Theoretically, the augmentation would make it more difficult for the magic to affect the character (tech vs. magic).
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@Jack - Not a force 3 spell, a Force 6 spell. I tried to use that in my original example, but Max pointed out that a mage with Magic 6 can overcast to 12. The news example was someone with Magic 3 so their absolute maximum force would be 12.
And yes, the force is based on the Audmented stat, so if someone has bone lacing, it counts.
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And yes, the force is based on the Audmented stat, so if someone has bone lacing, it counts.
Actually no, as bone lacing does not create an augmented attribute(the bonus from it isn't even limited by augmented maximums)
Somethink that augments your attribute for one particular think isn't an attribute augmentation, only those that augment it for all purposes are.
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Suprathyroid Gland is the only 'ware (I know of) that completely raises Your CON !
everything else just adds some Bonus Dice
HokaHey
Medicineman
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CON? ??? ;) ;D
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CON? ??? ;) ;D
KON (Konstitution in German)= CON ( Constitution)
its BOD in English :D
with a German Dance
Medicineman
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SR4A, pps. 341 and 345:
Plastic bone lacing confers a bonus of +1 to the Body attribute for damage resistance tests .... Increase the recipient’s Body by the
bone density [augmentation] rating for damage resistance tests.
Those are attribute bonuses, and therefore subject to augmented attribute limits.
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SR4A, pps. 341 and 345:
Plastic bone lacing confers a bonus of +1 to the Body attribute for damage resistance tests .... Increase the recipient’s Body by the
bone density [augmentation] rating for damage resistance tests.
Those are attribute bonuses, and therefore subject to augmented attribute limits.
Nope, as they only increase it for damage resistance tests.
Not that it actually ever matters, unless you have a mage boosting you body to max.
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So... Let's say that a human street sammy goes into the chop-shop to get a complete overhaul. He wants to be built like a tank. He gets arms, legs, torso and skull done. Standard Cyberlimbs (Bod 3) with Rating 6 Bod enhancement (bringing him to the human max of 9).
By the argument that Bone Lacing doesn't count towards that maximum, then he could also go in for the Titanium Bone Lacing, giving him 12 dice on Damage Resistance tests? Or, in the same vein, he could get Rating 4 Bone Augmentation bioware to give him a Bod of 13 on DR?
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So... Let's say that a human street sammy goes into the chop-shop to get a complete overhaul. He wants to be built like a tank. He gets arms, legs, torso and skull done. Standard Cyberlimbs (Bod 3) with Rating 6 Bod enhancement (bringing him to the human max of 9).
By the argument that Bone Lacing doesn't count towards that maximum, then he could also go in for the Titanium Bone Lacing, giving him 12 dice on Damage Resistance tests? Or, in the same vein, he could get Rating 4 Bone Augmentation bioware to give him a Bod of 13 on DR?
No ! Shurely not because you don't get any bonelacing bonus in Cyberlimbs -You can only have one or another.
Much more Interesting would by a Suprathyroid Gland in said Cyborg.
By RAW the bonusses (boni ?) DO add
and Yes,Mäx is right the Bonelacing only adds a Bonus to part of the BOD .it gives no Bonus to Toxin Resistance or Viruses,etc ,so its just a Modifier
with a Bonusdance
Medicineman
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Yes, I know, but I'm trying to prove a point. If you have something that maxes out the Bod attribute, would you then allow Lacing/Augmentation on top of it?
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I would allow the bone lacing but only give teh bonus to unarmed combat since the BOD atribute was already at the meta max.
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If it were a dice pool modifier, then why not just say "+1 dice pool modifier to damage resistance tests"? Instead, it specifically says a +1 Body modifier, and Body modifiers are subject to augmented Body limits. Sure, that Body doesn't apply for all purposes, but that doesn't exempt it from the maximums.
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Thank you, Bradd. That's what I was getting at. Most of the other 'wares that affect resistance tests list it as a +1 to Toxin/Disease/etc. Resistance Test.
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I would allow the bone lacing but only give teh bonus to unarmed combat since the BOD atribute was already at the meta max.
+1
Hough!
Medicineman