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jamesfirecat

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« Reply #15 on: <08-02-13/1941:18> »
The Ares Alpha is also completely illegal, so it's not like you can walk down the street with it slung over your shoulder.

But apparently, you think 100% of shadowrunner teams will carry grenades 100% of the time, and use them at the first opportunity, and that there will be no legal or reputation fallout for this?

Grenades are supposed to be an 'in case the drek hits the fan' weapon, not a Modus Operandi.


Once again, 3/4th of a Shadowrun fight is in the set up, in this case knowing how to sneak your Ares Alpha with you into wherever you are going to have the fight, or knowing how to keep it hidden/evading police attention when you feel a situation is bad enough for you to use one.

I do not think that all Shadowrun teams will carry grenades and certainly not at always use them at the first opportunity but grenades are just so incredibly powerful and it requires so little cost to the a character to be proficient with them (once again only needing three hits with no dodge allowed) that it would seem silly for a street samurai not to have grenades be a tool they are effective with.

The problem here is that you and I are approaching the game from two different angles.  You in my eyes are arguing that the overall setting of Shadowrun and a good game master will be able to discourage players from using grenades willy nilly.



My gripe is that grenades deal too much damage and too easy to land on target and a player should not have to expect/rely on a GM to make up for things that should have been resolved by the people who actually wrote the core rule book, by making grenades weaker/easier to defend against.

jamesfirecat

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« Reply #16 on: <08-02-13/1949:03> »
I'll post ion more detail when I get home, but there's a flaw in the premise that Sahdowrun is Alpha Strikey.  Specifically, that this is not the case (by design) is SR5.  Fights last a good deal longer in terms of in-game metrics (while taking less time out of game, interestingly enough).

As for damage staging not being needed: you don't need to increase base damage to let higher skilled characters pull ahead (though, if that's your goal, it's the called shot rules you want, not the burst rules).  Defense pools are a good deal higher, but hitting just once with an assault rifle carries a real chance of killing most targets, and if your dice pool and modifiers are high enough, there remains the possibility of dropping multiple targets.

By if your dice pool is high enough there remains a good chance of hitting multiple targets do you mean using your gun to multiple attack two different people and splitting your dice pool?

If so please tell me, when you do that, do you acquire twice as much recoil as if you fired at one target?

More to the point, how can start and argument with saying 5th edition is less alpha Strikey and the close with a comment of how hitting once with an assault rifle carries a real chance of killing most targets?

If you can kill someone with one shot, and a good burst makes dodging next to impossible  (defense pools may be higher but not high enough to give someone any real chance of dodging up against a -9 dice penalty from a full burst) this is the very defintion of alpha Strikey in my book (what definition are you using I use it to describe a system where defense is a sucker's game and its all about hitting first and hardest).

You are correct that called shot rules can let you do that, if you're using a sniper rifle or some single shot gun, in 4th you could in effect do it with automatics as well.

The lack of narrow bursts is why I am considering rerolling my character from Origins with all the extra yen and karma I earned (a one time thing we can do because there were no books out when I built my character) into possibly a longarms specialist or maybe I will stick with automatics and just suck it up and split my pool while using full bursts so that the fact that I have a smaller pool to attack with is offset by the fact that they get no pool at all to dodge with.

But once again I have to ask does recoil double/triple if you multitrack two /three targets, as I am not sure if it does or not at the moment.

RHat

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« Reply #17 on: <08-02-13/2052:27> »
I'll post ion more detail when I get home, but there's a flaw in the premise that Sahdowrun is Alpha Strikey.  Specifically, that this is not the case (by design) is SR5.  Fights last a good deal longer in terms of in-game metrics (while taking less time out of game, interestingly enough).

As for damage staging not being needed: you don't need to increase base damage to let higher skilled characters pull ahead (though, if that's your goal, it's the called shot rules you want, not the burst rules).  Defense pools are a good deal higher, but hitting just once with an assault rifle carries a real chance of killing most targets, and if your dice pool and modifiers are high enough, there remains the possibility of dropping multiple targets.

By if your dice pool is high enough there remains a good chance of hitting multiple targets do you mean using your gun to multiple attack two different people and splitting your dice pool?

If so please tell me, when you do that, do you acquire twice as much recoil as if you fired at one target?

More to the point, how can start and argument with saying 5th edition is less alpha Strikey and the close with a comment of how hitting once with an assault rifle carries a real chance of killing most targets?

If you can kill someone with one shot, and a good burst makes dodging next to impossible  (defense pools may be higher but not high enough to give someone any real chance of dodging up against a -9 dice penalty from a full burst) this is the very defintion of alpha Strikey in my book (what definition are you using I use it to describe a system where defense is a sucker's game and its all about hitting first and hardest).

You are correct that called shot rules can let you do that, if you're using a sniper rifle or some single shot gun, in 4th you could in effect do it with automatics as well.

The lack of narrow bursts is why I am considering rerolling my character from Origins with all the extra yen and karma I earned (a one time thing we can do because there were no books out when I built my character) into possibly a longarms specialist or maybe I will stick with automatics and just suck it up and split my pool while using full bursts so that the fact that I have a smaller pool to attack with is offset by the fact that they get no pool at all to dodge with.

But once again I have to ask does recoil double/triple if you multitrack two /three targets, as I am not sure if it does or not at the moment.

First, I am of course referring to splitting your dice pool - that's the only way to achieve an attack against multiple targets.  And no, you don't get twice as much recoil, because you haven't fired any more rounds.

Second, you have to consider things holistically - one system in isolation tells you precisely nothing.  So, let's say you decide you're going to be firing full auto.  Your target has, say, Intuition 4 and Reaction 4(6).  He is also hiding behind an object that provides good cover (because he's not an idiot).  Lets give the Sam Agility 6(8), Automatics 6, and a wireless smartgun for 16 dice, along with an Ares Alpha and a Strength of 4 allowing him to absorb the recoil from 5 rounds.  As he fires 10, he's at -5 from recoil.  He is further subject to a -6 penaltiy for blindfire, dropping him down to 5 dice.  And just because I feel like it, the target is 28 meters away.  The target loses 9 dice to FA, but gets 4 from his cover, and is using the Full Defense action to add his 3 Willpower.  Meaning he's rolling 8 dice to defend against 5.  His odds get even better if the sam has to instead shoot through the barrier.  AND the sam doesn't have a Simple left to grab cover, so he's in trouble.

That doesn't sound like a sucker's game to me.  In any case, a better definition of alpha strike is a tactic in which you unload as much offense as you possible can in the opening of combat, to the exclusion of anything else.  In some mech games, for example, this refers to firing all your weapons at once (such that you cannot fire at all until one of them comes off cooldown).  An alpha strikey game is one where this is the most effective tactic - but in fact, it's a better tactic to do things like circle around and flank your opponent to deny them the benefit of their cover, while using suppressing fire to prevent them from switching position.

As for good uses of a simple action: Observe in Detail (situational awareness is absolutely crucial), Take Aim, ready a grenade, throw a smoke grenade, ready a melee weapon (useful if you expect to need to make use of Interception)...

Anyways, as to armour:  Any item that offers +Armour is limited by Strength.  For example, if you want to wear a helmet and use a Ballistic or Riot Shield, you need Strength 8.  Run and Gun will almost certainly expand the list of such items.

And at the end of the day, just pulling the trigger a whole bunch isn't a way to win a fight against a reasonably intelligent opponent.  Tactics matter.

I do expect to see more people using Longarms now, though, because it got a much needed upgrade so that it's actually competitive.
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Ryo

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« Reply #18 on: <08-02-13/2120:19> »
You're right, grenades are clearly unfair. We should reinvent these explosives to cause less harm to people caught in the blasts or at least be easier to avoid. It's completely ridiculous that a soldier can just toss a grenade into a building and everybody inside basically just dies or gets horribly injured. So unbalancing!

If you didn't catch the sarcasm, my point is, grenades are supposed to be ridiculously lethal, because that's just reality. You toss an explosive at somebody and that guy is basically screwed. Nerfing them or making it super easy to avoid damage is just unrealistic.

But it's also unrealistic for you to be able to just toss a grenade in a street fight and have nobody give a shit. Nobody likes being blown up, so the setting stepping in and punishing you for your lack of discretion IS the intended balancing factor.

So in conclusion: Not a bug, working as intended. Will not fix.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #19 on: <08-02-13/2132:42> »
The fact that it's impossible to avoid wireless grenades in any way, no matter whether you have 3 or 30 dodge dice, whether you are standing still or zigzagging at 60 km/h, meaning a short burst from a grenade launcher will auto-kill everyone no matter what?

Edit: Don't get me wrong, I love lethal grenades. But there's definitely some flaws with them right now. Adding dodging abilities and making their overlap less crazy would solve that perfectly while keeping them dangerous as hell as they should be.
« Last Edit: <08-02-13/2136:50> by Michael Chandra »
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Ryo

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« Reply #20 on: <08-02-13/2150:00> »
The fact that it's impossible to avoid wireless grenades in any way, no matter whether you have 3 or 30 dodge dice, whether you are standing still or zigzagging at 60 km/h, meaning a short burst from a grenade launcher will auto-kill everyone no matter what?

Edit: Don't get me wrong, I love lethal grenades. But there's definitely some flaws with them right now. Adding dodging abilities and making their overlap less crazy would solve that perfectly while keeping them dangerous as hell as they should be.

The only issue is with Wireless Link grenades. Timed grenades go off next turn, so you just run away. Motion Sensor grenades use normal Ranged Combat tests, complete with a dodge roll, with a -2 Area Attack defense penalty to the defender. Wireless Link doesn't look like it was fully written out properly. For one thing, it says it reduces scatter, but not by how much. On top of that, why is it scattering at all if it explodes instantly?

However, One drawback to Wireless Link is that you can't activate it, throw it, and detonate it all in the same turn. You have to spend at least one turn with it in your hand and activated, or on target and unexploded.

Ready Grenade is a Simple Action
Throw Grenade is a Simple Action
Turn on Wireless is a Free action
Trigger explosion is a free action.

So you ready it, turn on wireless, and throw it. Can't blow it up until next turn. Or you ready it, wait a turn with it in your hand, turn on wireless, throw it and trigger it. But they had a warning because they see you standing there for a turn with a grenade in shotput position.

And the grenade launcher is actually worse, since you have to have the grenade loaded in the launcher with the wireless already on, because its not like you can reach your hand down the barrel and flip the switch. That means the hacker can see you packing a very obvious grenade launcher and then go to town on your ammo.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #21 on: <08-02-13/2202:31> »
Except that if you already have it in your hand, you can turn on, throw and explode it in a single action phase.

Someone claimed grenade launchers autoprime the wireless grenades, likely an interpretation based on that the launchers prime grenades to actually allow them to explode only after a minimum distance. I doubt a hacker can override that protection, since it requires you to actually physically tweak the launcher itself.
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Ryo

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« Reply #22 on: <08-02-13/2205:51> »
Except that if you already have it in your hand, you can turn on, throw and explode it in a single action phase.

Someone claimed grenade launchers autoprime the wireless grenades, likely an interpretation based on that the launchers prime grenades to actually allow them to explode only after a minimum distance. I doubt a hacker can override that protection, since it requires you to actually physically tweak the launcher itself.

And if you already have it in your hand, they can see you have it in your hand and run for it in advance, or focus fire on you.

And the hacker doesn't have to override that protection. All he has to do is mark it and then delay his free action to detonate it as soon as it primes, which is 5 meters in front of your face. that's 6P -2 damage if you're firing HE grenades, 13P +5 if it was a frag.

ZeConster

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« Reply #23 on: <08-02-13/2208:37> »
And the grenade launcher is actually worse, since you have to have the grenade loaded in the launcher with the wireless already on, because its not like you can reach your hand down the barrel and flip the switch. That means the hacker can see you packing a very obvious grenade launcher and then go to town on your ammo.
I never get tired of using the phrase "grenade sniper", really. Grenade launchers have a max range of 500m, so good luck to the hacker with trying to find you in a 500m radius - and that's assuming he has any idea you're there.
Actually, if you really want to enter "are you freaking kidding me?" domain, you could buy an Agi-6 cyberarm at chargen for 30k (25k for Agi-5 for Trolls, 35k for Agi-7 for Elves), then save up 30k afterwards and install a grenade launcher in it, taking up all 15 Capacity - even if someone spots you, it's not like they'll notice you've got a grenade launcher in your arm from that distance if you're wearing long sleeves.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #24 on: <08-02-13/2212:15> »
And if you already have it in your hand, they can see you have it in your hand and run for it in advance, or focus fire on you.
Which is why you're in cover and keep that hand out of sight. It's a -2 penalty, sure, but the threshold is only 3.
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Ryo

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« Reply #25 on: <08-02-13/2220:28> »
And the grenade launcher is actually worse, since you have to have the grenade loaded in the launcher with the wireless already on, because its not like you can reach your hand down the barrel and flip the switch. That means the hacker can see you packing a very obvious grenade launcher and then go to town on your ammo.
I never get tired of using the phrase "grenade sniper", really. Grenade launchers have a max range of 500m, so good luck to the hacker with trying to find you in a 500m radius - and that's assuming he has any idea you're there.
Actually, if you really want to enter "are you freaking kidding me?" domain, you could buy an Agi-6 cyberarm at chargen for 30k (25k for Agi-5 for Trolls, 35k for Agi-7 for Elves), then save up 30k afterwards and install a grenade launcher in it, taking up all 15 Capacity - even if someone spots you, it's not like they'll notice you've got a grenade launcher in your arm from that distance if you're wearing long sleeves.

Good luck hitting with your minimum -6 on that roll for Extreme range, and I would quite frankly give you Strong winds to deal with as well on a grenade traveling half a kilometer, so that's -10. So even if you went Agility 9 Heavy Weapons 6 at chargen, you're trying to get 3 hits on 5 dice.

But I don't think anybody else here was really worried about artillery strikes from six blocks over when they were bitching about grenades.

jamesfirecat

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« Reply #26 on: <08-02-13/2226:11> »
I'll post ion more detail when I get home, but there's a flaw in the premise that Sahdowrun is Alpha Strikey.  Specifically, that this is not the case (by design) is SR5.  Fights last a good deal longer in terms of in-game metrics (while taking less time out of game, interestingly enough).

As for damage staging not being needed: you don't need to increase base damage to let higher skilled characters pull ahead (though, if that's your goal, it's the called shot rules you want, not the burst rules).  Defense pools are a good deal higher, but hitting just once with an assault rifle carries a real chance of killing most targets, and if your dice pool and modifiers are high enough, there remains the possibility of dropping multiple targets.

By if your dice pool is high enough there remains a good chance of hitting multiple targets do you mean using your gun to multiple attack two different people and splitting your dice pool?

If so please tell me, when you do that, do you acquire twice as much recoil as if you fired at one target?

More to the point, how can start and argument with saying 5th edition is less alpha Strikey and the close with a comment of how hitting once with an assault rifle carries a real chance of killing most targets?

If you can kill someone with one shot, and a good burst makes dodging next to impossible  (defense pools may be higher but not high enough to give someone any real chance of dodging up against a -9 dice penalty from a full burst) this is the very defintion of alpha Strikey in my book (what definition are you using I use it to describe a system where defense is a sucker's game and its all about hitting first and hardest).

You are correct that called shot rules can let you do that, if you're using a sniper rifle or some single shot gun, in 4th you could in effect do it with automatics as well.

The lack of narrow bursts is why I am considering rerolling my character from Origins with all the extra yen and karma I earned (a one time thing we can do because there were no books out when I built my character) into possibly a longarms specialist or maybe I will stick with automatics and just suck it up and split my pool while using full bursts so that the fact that I have a smaller pool to attack with is offset by the fact that they get no pool at all to dodge with.

But once again I have to ask does recoil double/triple if you multitrack two /three targets, as I am not sure if it does or not at the moment.

First, I am of course referring to splitting your dice pool - that's the only way to achieve an attack against multiple targets.  And no, you don't get twice as much recoil, because you haven't fired any more rounds.

Second, you have to consider things holistically - one system in isolation tells you precisely nothing.  So, let's say you decide you're going to be firing full auto.  Your target has, say, Intuition 4 and Reaction 4(6).  He is also hiding behind an object that provides good cover (because he's not an idiot).  Lets give the Sam Agility 6(8), Automatics 6, and a wireless smartgun for 16 dice, along with an Ares Alpha and a Strength of 4 allowing him to absorb the recoil from 5 rounds.  As he fires 10, he's at -5 from recoil.  He is further subject to a -6 penaltiy for blindfire, dropping him down to 5 dice.  And just because I feel like it, the target is 28 meters away.  The target loses 9 dice to FA, but gets 4 from his cover, and is using the Full Defense action to add his 3 Willpower.  Meaning he's rolling 8 dice to defend against 5.  His odds get even better if the sam has to instead shoot through the barrier.  AND the sam doesn't have a Simple left to grab cover, so he's in trouble.

That doesn't sound like a sucker's game to me.  In any case, a better definition of alpha strike is a tactic in which you unload as much offense as you possible can in the opening of combat, to the exclusion of anything else.  In some mech games, for example, this refers to firing all your weapons at once (such that you cannot fire at all until one of them comes off cooldown).  An alpha strikey game is one where this is the most effective tactic - but in fact, it's a better tactic to do things like circle around and flank your opponent to deny them the benefit of their cover, while using suppressing fire to prevent them from switching position.

As for good uses of a simple action: Observe in Detail (situational awareness is absolutely crucial), Take Aim, ready a grenade, throw a smoke grenade, ready a melee weapon (useful if you expect to need to make use of Interception)...

Anyways, as to armour:  Any item that offers +Armour is limited by Strength.  For example, if you want to wear a helmet and use a Ballistic or Riot Shield, you need Strength 8.  Run and Gun will almost certainly expand the list of such items.

And at the end of the day, just pulling the trigger a whole bunch isn't a way to win a fight against a reasonably intelligent opponent.  Tactics matter.

I do expect to see more people using Longarms now, though, because it got a much needed upgrade so that it's actually competitive.


Your example does not make sense the way I Shadowrun.

Like I said 75% of the fight is the set up that means flanking, positions and denying your foes cover all should be taken into account before the first bullet gets fired, if the fight starts with your foes in cover than you have thoroughly screwed up your job.  Even if they have cover availed to them they should not be in it when the fight starts and by spending edge to go first (possibly just in general also being faster as a good street samurai should be faster than any generic mook) you can get that one shot in, which like you said could probably kill them, before they ever get a chance to move to that cover.

Why would you ever start a fight with your foes in cover?  If you start a fight in that situation you have probably been ambushed and you should probably be running away/looking for an exit.

Also you just don't shoot at people you can't see.

What you do is either shoot at someone who is the open, (or at least minimal enough cover that you can see them and do not take blind fire penalties)  or you hold your actions and then dex off with the guy when he tries to pop out of cover and shoot him first.

Except that if they all have cover than yeah it's grenade time, because honestly that is what grenades were meant to do flush people out of cover.

Also no shadowrunners I would ever play would only have five points of recoil comp.  Anyone should be able to get at least double digits, you use a wireless tripod that can deploy as a free action for six points of recoil comp, and gas vents three for another three, Ares Alpha has two and you're at 11 already without needing taking into account strength!

Tactics do matter in Shadowrun but in my book they are best all taken care of before the first bullet leaves the barrel.


Michael Chandra

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« Reply #27 on: <08-02-13/2229:59> »
Good luck hitting with your minimum -6 on that roll for Extreme range, and I would quite frankly give you Strong winds to deal with as well on a grenade traveling half a kilometer, so that's -10. So even if you went Agility 9 Heavy Weapons 6 at chargen, you're trying to get 3 hits on 5 dice.
9 Agility, Heavy Weapons 6(9) as Adept, Specialty Grenade Launchers, Wireless Smartgun (which also lowers the Wind penalty to -3, so -6 is the only penalty taken. That's 22 dice, -6, 16 left. At 6+6+2+2-6 we're still at 10 dice for 3 hits, 70% odds.
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jamesfirecat

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« Reply #28 on: <08-02-13/2231:42> »
The fact that it's impossible to avoid wireless grenades in any way, no matter whether you have 3 or 30 dodge dice, whether you are standing still or zigzagging at 60 km/h, meaning a short burst from a grenade launcher will auto-kill everyone no matter what?

Edit: Don't get me wrong, I love lethal grenades. But there's definitely some flaws with them right now. Adding dodging abilities and making their overlap less crazy would solve that perfectly while keeping them dangerous as hell as they should be.

The only issue is with Wireless Link grenades. Timed grenades go off next turn, so you just run away. Motion Sensor grenades use normal Ranged Combat tests, complete with a dodge roll, with a -2 Area Attack defense penalty to the defender. Wireless Link doesn't look like it was fully written out properly. For one thing, it says it reduces scatter, but not by how much. On top of that, why is it scattering at all if it explodes instantly?

However, One drawback to Wireless Link is that you can't activate it, throw it, and detonate it all in the same turn. You have to spend at least one turn with it in your hand and activated, or on target and unexploded.

Ready Grenade is a Simple Action
Throw Grenade is a Simple Action
Turn on Wireless is a Free action
Trigger explosion is a free action.

So you ready it, turn on wireless, and throw it. Can't blow it up until next turn. Or you ready it, wait a turn with it in your hand, turn on wireless, throw it and trigger it. But they had a warning because they see you standing there for a turn with a grenade in shotput position.

And the grenade launcher is actually worse, since you have to have the grenade loaded in the launcher with the wireless already on, because its not like you can reach your hand down the barrel and flip the switch. That means the hacker can see you packing a very obvious grenade launcher and then go to town on your ammo.

Or you can just have it activated already and slaved to your decker's deck.

If he can't keep his deck from getting hacked you having a grenade go off will be the least of your problems and at least be a quick way to go,

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #29 on: <08-02-13/2233:09> »
In all fairness I always operate under the assumption that I am either out of range of an enemy decker's attention zone or running wired and offline. I hate depending on a decker for not getting killed. For the less paranoid *cough*amateurs*cough* it's a nice option. ^_^
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