Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: Chalkarts on <04-29-19/0913:03>
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Do you find it worthwhile in any situation to combine the two?
I like the challenge of blending them and am always trying to find ways to make them compliment one another.
I'm considering a full wizard with exceptional attribute Magic just so I can sink a point of essence into ware and keep magic 6.
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Prototype Transhuman gives you a full essence point's worth of bioware (but only bioware) for no essence cost. That's a no-brainer of a quality if you're combining magic and augmentations.
Beyond that: there's tons of things you can do with 1 point of essence that open up capabilities that'd otherwise be unavailable. It's quite plausible that it'd be worth giving up 1 point of magic to get some of those capabilities.
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I'm thinking some nice eyeware, a skilljack, & datajack
Maybe an obvious arm if I want to get crazy and go down to 4 essence.
Can a burnout be effective with a low magic? If i went completely mad and dropped to 2-3 essence would i still be able to use less splodey spells, maybe a heal spell(yes the drain will suck) some detections? No massive kabooms but a decent amount of utility. The cyber will handle the kabooms.
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So long as you're willing to throw reagents around like confetti, low force spells absolutely can be highly effective.
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Or high-force spells with Reagents to set the limit on a safe value for Stun-drain.
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This is my Heavy CyberPaladin
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1HDEEw_msG52unfxNKksYnGACBuk9Npgv
Only 2 magic and 4 spells, but i think can hold up in a fight due to cyberware armor and machine pistols.
Not fast(Yet) but tough.
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It is really a matter of taste. A Wiz with essence four is going to play a bit different than one with six, but that ware gives other benefits. So it is kind of a matter of how easily you want to sling powerful magics without worrying much versus what other cool stuff you'd like.
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Cerebral Boosters are a good fit for magicians with Logic as their drain stat, like hermetics. Besides the ding to Essence their biggest downsides are their high cost and Availability, but if you can swing them with Transhuman Prototype then so much the better.
A magician doesn't need Magic 6 to be effective. Low force spirits are excellent skirmishers and can distract opponents, and some of their powers (like Movement, Concealment, Innate Spell) can be highly beneficial even at Force 3.
Similarly, there are a ton of spells that are useful even if they're not Force 6. Detection spells, for example, max out their utility around Force 4. Higher Force can get you a better range, but an Extended spell with a range of Magic 4 * Force 4 * 10 meters = 160 meters is still hugely helpful. Lots of Manipulation spells are great at lower Force too, like Levitate, Magic Fingers, and Fashion.
Like Beta says, a Magic 4 magician is going to play differently than a Magic 6 magician, but they're still very useful. Their emphasis might be on utility spells, rather than "I can kill you with my brain", but there's still a lot of value as a support role.
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https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1HDEEw_msG52unfxNKksYnGACBuk9Npgv
I did some priority shifting and changed her into an Aspected mage.
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The Dice Pools are too small, IMO.
I think your highest is 8?
That just isn't going to get it done in most campaigns.
If you want to mix, I'd go Adept which feeds into Combat better.
Otherwise if you just want a couple things like Eyes, then go Transhuman as suggested above or only sacrifice a single point of Essence.
As it is now I feel like the character will be dead before she does much.
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This almost never a good idea, Prototype transhuman being the only real exception but even that has very defined limits.
99 times out of 100 you would better off going straight magic or straight ware.
Now as always it's fine to build non-optimized builds. One of the Tiny percentage of the human races blessed with the power of magic, and you find it better to have some metal limbs then just wait a bit to quickening and achieve better stats all over?
The build as shown is in Crit glitch range in what appears to be it's primary pools. Being non-optimized is fine and reasonable, being in the high percentage range for crit glitch is dead man walking.
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I love low essence and low magic magicians, but they don't play as magical specialists, but other roles on the team that are able to blend many kinds of bonuses together and have lots of interesting avenues for growth.
If playing a magic specialist, someone who has a job to to take care of magical threats, being a full on magician with high magic is most efficient. Magic is just such a powerful attribute and linked to all sorts of amazing things. This is why being a non-specialist is worth often just having magic 1/2. But to sling spells with ease, conjure spirits, travel the astral, wield powerful foci, protect team members for spells, etc. Maximizing magic is often good.
Again, that all being said, trading some magic for useful 'ware, can be a good trade-off for some players. Ex. Being a Magic 4 magician that has high drain resistance can often more safely and recklessly cast/summon F8 spells/spirits than a Magic 6 magician.
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The trick is to find ware that you can't just replicate with a spell.
Quite a lot of genemods and a few select bioware equipment pieces come to mind: Daredrenaline for soaking drain and Narco for Psyche are a good choice, as are Double Elastin and platelet factories to reduce drain damage. Also a sleep regulator is pretty useful for everybody.
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The trick is to find ware that you can't just replicate with a spell.
Quite a lot of genemods and a few select bioware equipment pieces come to mind: Daredrenaline for soaking drain and Narco for Psyche are a good choice, as are Double Elastin and platelet factories to reduce drain damage. Also a sleep regulator is pretty useful for everybody.
For an Adept, would it be worth it to take the 2 essence hit for 2 Full cyberarms with maxed strength and agility, then use power points for adept increased reflexes and increased physical limit, and some other stuff?
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The trick is to find ware that you can't just replicate with a spell.
Quite a lot of genemods and a few select bioware equipment pieces come to mind: Daredrenaline for soaking drain and Narco for Psyche are a good choice, as are Double Elastin and platelet factories to reduce drain damage. Also a sleep regulator is pretty useful for everybody.
For an Adept, would it be worth it to take the 2 essence hit for 2 Full cyberarms with maxed strength and agility, then use power points for adept increased reflexes and increased physical limit, and some other stuff?
Why 2 arms instead of 1?
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To have any idea You would have to know your GM's opinion on unarmed attack and what limbs go into it and how they would average. Further you would need to know what your GM would rule concerning using adept powers through cyberlimbs.
The answers would likely vary by GM, and might vary by table.
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Further you would need to know what your GM would rule concerning using adept powers through cyberlimbs.
I was curious about that too, if cyberlimbs could have killing hands and could fight astral foes.
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I was curious about that too, if cyberlimbs could have killing hands and could fight astral foes.
I honestly don't know what the answer to that is. My guess would be it would work. But I don't have anything to back that up or base the opinion off of other then the fact that I wouldn't jack up a player that hard. Kiir? Adzling?
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If you paid essence for it, it is part of you. Like mages can't cast line of sight spells through electronic vision aids, but can using their own cyber eyes. At least that is my interpretation.
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I agree. By paying essence for it, it's become part of you.
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Once Essence has been paid for something, It is considered part of your Aura; And thus adept abilities can work through them.
Although, Cyber arms inflict lethal damage, and Killing hands is a high cost power for lethal damage...
If killing hands wasn't a lead in for some other powers, it would probably be rendered redundant by cyber arms.
And, lets be honest, exactly how often has an adept ever actually attacked a spirit for the other effect of Killing Hands to matter?
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I don't really agree with that logic, as I recall if you project with ware, the ware is hole in your aura or at-least it was back in one of the editions. But I still favor the mechanic working, so the point is fairly irrelevant.
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Narco for Psyche are a good choice, as are Double Elastin and platelet factories to reduce drain damage.
Double Elastin does not work for reducing Drain damage.
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Once Essence has been paid for something, It is considered part of your Aura; And thus adept abilities can work through them.
Although, Cyber arms inflict lethal damage, and Killing hands is a high cost power for lethal damage...
If killing hands wasn't a lead in for some other powers, it would probably be rendered redundant by cyber arms.
And, lets be honest, exactly how often has an adept ever actually attacked a spirit for the other effect of Killing Hands to matter?
If I had fully boosted cyber arms(6/6)
They’d do lethal already, but would it be worthwhile to have the adept increase limit power combined with a couple levels of indomitable for a limit increase of 3 for your unarmed attacks.
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Chalk I notice i your builds you don't put in enhanced agility/strength in your cyberlimbs.
Human cyberlimbs, for example, can be customized to agi 6/str 6. This becomes their base value. You can then add enhancements (that take up capacity in the limb) up to +3 above the base stats, limbs can be agi 9/str 9. Other metatypes with higher attribute maximums for agility and strength can get even higher.
Who needs killing hands with a cyberlimb when a melee weapon focus of a cyberweapon focus is more useful!
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Human cyberlimbs, for example, can be customized to agi 6/str 6. This becomes their base value. You can then add enhancements (that take up capacity in the limb) up to +3 above the base stats, limbs can be agi 9/str 9. Other metatypes with higher attribute maximums for agility and strength can get even higher.
I didn't realize they stacked.
I thought custom was just built into the ware and enhancement was added later in game.
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You can buy it all when you just buy the limb. You can buy limbs with things in them during chargen.
Customization has to be decided when you buy a limb and can't be changed. Enhancement stacks with customization, and can be added later or removed.
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Where is my Cyberlimb summary...
https://shadowland.blog/2015/08/02/cyberlimbs-1/
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Mages benefit extremely heavily from certain types of 'ware, as losing 1 essence translates to 1 less casting and summoning dice and 2 less force limit, which is ultimately an extremely minor cost. You rarely cast at a full force 12 and when you do it is often in contexts where your sort of doing overkill casts for emergencies. Like the scope of damage from a force 10 and force 12 fireball are the same: you killed everyone and melted half the building.
Giving that up for a pain editor is seen as so strong it is overpowered: You essentially become immune to stun based drain if you play a traditional 'stay out of trouble' caster. Obviously just loading up on stun means maybe you will take more lethal damage in edge cases, but usually it is irrelevant, and the 'ware boosts drain resistance and allows you to ignore pain penalties from drain as well. This is the 'ware that makes burning out for 'ware on a mage worth it, to the point that it would be optimal to take even if it costed a full essence point, and it is one of the few pieces of gear that is such a game changer it is worth the Restricted Gear quality, which is usually a bad investment.
Other decent 'ware options include boosting your drain resistance if you are a hermetic or intuitive caster, or just getting more soak and defense dice. Mages benefit a lot less from attribute boosting 'ware however than most other archtypes, as increase [Attribute] with psyche is extremely effective, effectively putting the attribute they are using at 1 less than augmented maximum at no essence cost. Likewise, analyze device is an intensely powerful generalist buff. It isn't that this 'ware is bad for mages per-say, it is just that mages in 5e at least have a lot of access to ways to boost skills and attributes at little cost. In general most mage builds would be stronger burning out for 1 essence even without pain editor, but without pain editor there is a lot less drawing them to 'ware, it is one of those unsatisfying 'invisible power' buffs where you do it and take statistically 1 less damage every attack against you sort of thing rather than getting a samurai's level of damage resistance or grabbing a fistfull of offensive dice.
Limb mages are funny, and one of my favorite PCs I ever played alongside was a limb mage, but there is some serious anti-synergy with limbs, such as the essence cost being significant enough where force limits start to seriously cramp your style and "Trogdor" limb builds not benefiting from your very powerful attribute boosting spells. I generally find that the value of essentially ignoring a -1 sustaining penalty when shooting one handed weapons worth less than just a soak bonus and tossing increase agility on yourself.
Thematically, mages often get datajacks and cybereyes, because they are in universe convenient, though they are not powerful.
Prototype Transhuman seems very useful for a mage, but it is actually not a very strong quality. You are saddling yourself with some pretty intense permanent disadvantages for an essence point of pure bioware that must be filled at gen, creating priority issues. It isn't bad, but most people dabbling with character optimization avoid it because the cost of losing 1 essence on a mage is actually low, and mostly psychological (we, as humans, are loss adverse and prioritize our magic is 1 less than it could have been over the fact we got something worth a lot more than 1 magic). PT also locks you out of a major advantage of burning out 1 essence, in that you gain access to nuyen based augmentation advancement by upgrading 'ware levels to get more soak, defense, or skill dice, allowing you to advance as both a mage with karma and an augmented character with nuyen, rather than the much lower cap of nuyen advancement for mages, foci, that is also karma linked anyway.
At the end of the day, 1 essence of 'ware for a mage isn't going to totally flip their power level one way or another (again, unless you take pain editor, which completely changes your relationship with your spell and spirit forces in an arguably unhealthy way) and mages already sit at a very high power level. If you really enjoy optimization (which is a totally fun and valid way to play the game!) you probably would want to go for a pain editor and orthoskin or good strong bones. If you are looking at a more lore based mix and are just more worried about general viability (Not caring about optimization is also valid, but obviously doesn't matter how interesting thematically a PC is if they aren't fun to play), if your burning out only 1 essence and are covering your keister with the basic mage package of summoning, casting, and knowing heal and one AOE indirect for emergencies along with your intended spells for your specific mages, the loss from 1 magic isn't a huge difference maker and you have plenty of room to just take fun 'lore ware even if it isn't good. Mages in 5e are very forgiving of inefficient choices because their 'floor' is still extremely strong.