[Medtec28]

First off, apologies if this is the wrong forum (wasn't sure if it is better here or in missions). A group of my friends and I are planning on playing a good amount of missions at GenCon, and most of us have limitted experience in missions (4 Chicago missions between the 3 of us. )We've all built characters for this coming season, and will be starting with the cerulean shadows convention pack. Of the three of us, my face is the only character to have purchased a fake SIN at character creation. The other two guys are of the opinion that, since we'll have several games before we actually play in neotokyo, they would rather pick up a rating 6 SIN later than waste money on it now. Is this a reasonably sound theory, perhaps because Amazonia and the Caribean League aren't as authoritarian as Neotokyo, or should I be pressuring the others to buy SIN's, and not count on my ability to fast-talk them out of trouble?

[Xenon]

Do they have a legal SIN negative quality to fall back on?

I can't talk for Missions, but life without any SIN at all will generally become quite... tricky. You also can't get licenses for your restricted gear if you don't have a [fake] SIN.

SR5 p. 367 System Identification Number (SIN)
No aspect of modern or legal life can function without a SIN. Those who don’t have one can’t get a job, can’t buy food, can’t even walk down the street.

SR5 p. 443 Fake system identification number (SIN)
Getting by without a SIN can be a pain, so most runners settle for the next best thing: a fake.

SR5 p. 84 Sinner (Layered)
A legal SIN is required for all legal purchases. This makes them very useful things to have,  so those who are SINless generally get by with the use of fake SINs (p. 367) just so they can participate in society.

I guess they can try to live completely off the grid. Like homeless people or in a hut in the wilderness or something...?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

You'll want to look at the upcoming Neo-Tokyo FAQ... shadowrunning in Neo-Tokyo without a Fake SIN is looking to be nigh impossible.  If you have to choose between buying armor and buying a Fake SIN buy the Fake SIN.

[Medtec28]

They understand that about neotokyo, but we'll be starting with the Cerulean Shadows CMP's, and will have 4-5 missions before we land in Neotokyo. All three of us would ideally like to have Rating 6 fake SIN's by then. But, since it seems that cerulean shadows takes place in Metropole, would running without a high grade fake SIN, or without a fake SIN at all, be a reasonable plan for the first few games, before paying for that rating 6.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

They understand that about neotokyo, but we'll be starting with the Cerulean Shadows CMP's, and will have 4-5 missions before we land in Neotokyo. All three of us would ideally like to have Rating 6 fake SIN's by then. But, since it seems that cerulean shadows takes place in Metropole, would running without a high grade fake SIN, or without a fake SIN at all, be a reasonable plan for the first few games, before paying for that rating 6.

Fair enough, but honestly I'd buy rating 4s anyway on any and every starting character anyway whether it's Neo-Tokyo or not.  Not being able to get in to a fancy restaurant on account of being SINless is a terrible way to impress Mr Johnson at your meet.

As an aside, I'm not familiar with the Cerulean Shadows CMP but you'll want to double check they're for the Neo-Tokyo campaign characters rather than Chicago campaign characters.  It'd suck to lock your intended Neo-Tokyo runners out of Neo-Tokyo.

[Overbyte]

I actually don't completely subscribe to the theory that you can't live without a SIN and plenty of the information in Shadowrun describes that many many people live without them.. i.e. - the SINless

I can't talk for Missions, but life without any SIN at all will generally become quite... tricky. You also can't get licenses for your restricted gear if you don't have a [fake] SIN.

You only need a license if the cops stop you and check you for one. Most runners try not to get stopped by, or even run into, police.

SR5 p. 367 System Identification Number (SIN)
No aspect of modern or legal life can function without a SIN. Those who don’t have one can’t get a job, can’t buy food, can’t even walk down the street.

This is also not actually true, since you can buy plenty of normal stuff with a certified credstick (i.e. - cash). Street vendors don't check your SIN if you have money. Once again if you live in a low lifestyle neighborhood many/most people don't have them so why would people be checking for them? They wouldn't and they couldn't or the SINless couldn't exist.

SR5 p. 84 Sinner (Layered)
A legal SIN is required for all legal purchases. This makes them very useful things to have,  so those who are SINless generally get by with the use of fake SINs (p. 367) just so they can participate in society.

I guess they can try to live completely off the grid. Like homeless people or in a hut in the wilderness or something...?

They live at Low or Street level like other SINless people do.

[Marcus]

Look a Fake sin is Important, but if your starved for cash a low rating sin has shot of working, bring some edge to the table and rating one or two and point edge might well be enough to get the job done. Yes getting raiting 4+ should be very high on your list.

I would never give up armor for fake sin, but I would never start play without a fake sin.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Your average SINless person, unlike a SINless Shadowrunner, doesn't ever try to go into a fancy restaurant to meet Mr Johnson.  Or infiltrate a high society gala event in the course of a Shadowrun.  Or etc.

The upcoming "wait in the van" rule alone will ensure you have a Fake SIN in SRM... if you don't attend the meet with Mr. Johnson, you don't get paid.  And unless Mr Johnson wants to meet somewhere where the SINless hang out, you don't get in without broadcasting a SIN to anyplace nice/civilized.

Look a Fake sin is Important, but if your starved for cash a low rating sin has shot of working, bring some edge to the table and rating one or two and point edge might well be enough to get the job done. Yes getting raiting 4+ should be very high on your list.

I would never give up armor for fake sin, but I would never start play without a fake sin.

Way I see it is you only might need armor.  You absolutely will need a Fake SIN.  Would I seriously finish chargen for a character without buying armor?  Of course not.  But ahead of armor on priority is the Fake SIN.  Way I see it a crappy Fake SIN hits you harder than crappy armor does.  So you skimp on armor before you skimp on your Fake SIN.

[Marcus]

Look the reason we say this, in  AR society like Neo-tokyo or any major city it expect your commlink will be active broadcasting (Which requires a SIN), the cops can cruise along and look, if you just look another civ on move then all is well, but if your commlink is off then you're a red flag. Someone who stands out from the normal and that is just what you want to avoid.

[Michael Chandra]

If you're going to enter any decent neighbourhood, you'll have to broadcast a SIN. Otherwise you'll be in big trouble. And unfortunately most meetings are at decent neighbourhoods. Asides from that, SRM is apparently putting heavier limits on there.

[Overbyte]

Your average SINless person, unlike a SINless Shadowrunner, doesn't ever try to go into a fancy restaurant to meet Mr Johnson.  Or infiltrate a high society gala event in the course of a Shadowrun.  Or etc.

Neither does a SINless shadowrunner. Not all runs involve going into fancy restaurants and not all members of a team need to go everywhere together.

The upcoming "wait in the van" rule alone will ensure you have a Fake SIN in SRM... if you don't attend the meet with Mr. Johnson, you don't get paid.  And unless Mr Johnson wants to meet somewhere where the SINless hang out, you don't get in without broadcasting a SIN to anyplace nice/civilized.

I don't know what makes you think that if you don't go to the meet with Mr. Johnson you don't get paid. Why would you want your giagantic heavy weapon specialist Troll to go into a swanky restaurant and risk a social faux pas. Negotiating with Mr. Johnson is what your face is for.

Way I see it is you only might need armor.  You absolutely will need a Fake SIN.  Would I seriously finish chargen for a character without buying armor?  Of course not.  But ahead of armor on priority is the Fake SIN.  Way I see it a crappy Fake SIN hits you harder than crappy armor does.  So you skimp on armor before you skimp on your Fake SIN.

I notice this a lot on these boards that people presume that all SR games look just like theirs. While I agree that a Fake SIN is a very useful item, plenty of characters could start without one and be well within character and perfectly playable.

[Reaver]

I actually don't completely subscribe to the theory that you can't live without a SIN and plenty of the information in Shadowrun describes that many many people live without them.. i.e. - the Sinless

I can't talk for Missions, but life without any SIN at all will generally become quite... tricky. You also can't get licenses for your restricted gear if you don't have a [fake] SIN.

You only need a license if the cops stop you and check you for one. Most runners try not to get stopped by, or even run into, police.

SR5 p. 367 System Identification Number (SIN)
No aspect of modern or legal life can function without a SIN. Those who don’t have one can’t get a job, can’t buy food, can’t even walk down the street.

This is also not actually true, since you can buy plenty of normal stuff with a certified credstick (i.e. - cash). Street vendors don't check your SIN if you have money. Once again if you live in a low lifestyle neighborhood many/most people don't have them so why would people be checking for them? They wouldn't and they couldn't or the SINless couldn't exist.

SR5 p. 84 Sinner (Layered)
A legal SIN is required for all legal purchases. This makes them very useful things to have,  so those who are SINless generally get by with the use of fake SINs (p. 367) just so they can participate in society.

I guess they can try to live completely off the grid. Like homeless people or in a hut in the wilderness or something...?

They live at Low or Street level like other SINless people do.

A couple of things to keep in mind here Overbyte:

There is living a "sinless life" and then there is having a healthy life. In Shadowrun, these are exclusive.
A SIN serves  as the primary form of identification in the SR universe. It is your citizenship, social insurance number and through extension, your driver's license, your bank account, your proof of ownership, and in some cases, your right to life!

Something as simple as getting a soycafe can not be done without without a SIN. Why? Well to get to the restaurant, you have to either walk, or take public transit. To take public transit, you need a SIN. To walk to the restaurant, you are required by law to broadcast a SIN... Even if you could get to the restaurant, chances are, it would be an automated process, again requiring you to use a SIN... Even if the place took certified Credsticks, you can bet, somewhere along the change of events, you would need a SIN (such as to transfer ownership of the soycaf from the restaurant to you!). And how did you get that Certified Credstick? To get one, you have to transfer money from an account with a SIN - at a bank branch- to the stic... which can't be done without a SIN.
When you get right down to it, there is no part of human society that isn't impacted by not having a SIN, fake or no.

People who live a Street lifestyle die. It's just a matter of when. Be it from the elements and exposure due to the fact the only shelter they can find is a cardboard box, a condemned building, or other makeshift enclosure. Their food is whatever has been thrown out, or whatever they can catch and kill, or whatever the soup kitchen is giving out -if they can stand in line long enough. There is no security for these people, as the very laws are written to exclude them! (A Citizen is entitled to the full protections of his/her/it country. But to be a Citizen, you have to have a SIN, as your SIN shows your Citizenship!). So the legal system sees them as non entities, as do the unfunded, and overwhelmed social services networks of countries. (Corps however, don't seem to have this problem. Oh right, trespassing laws...)

At least, that is the way it is for "law abiding" folks. Runners can and sometimes do fall outside this realm. For better or worse.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I don't know what makes you think that if you don't go to the meet with Mr. Johnson you don't get paid.

That's how SRM is going to work when the new season starts.  Your socially inept types don't get paid if they don't go.  And what's even more fun is those with certain socially inept negative qualities are required to try to help assist the Face.. they can't control themselves and stay quiet. 

I brought it up because the thread is about a SRM context.

I notice this a lot on these boards that people presume that all SR games look just like theirs. While I agree that a Fake SIN is a very useful item, plenty of characters could start without one and be well within character and perfectly playable.

To be fair I've been talking about SRM, which is by design fairly consistent across tables.  And to reiterate my point.. while I agree there are some characters who'd be fine without a Fake SIN... I'm claiming that there are less of them than there are characters who'd be fine without armor.. especially in Neo-Tokyo. 

But let's not quibble about whether or not armor is less or more useful than a Fake SIN.  Let's just agree that a Fake SIN, like armor, is something you just shouldn't go without.

[Michael Chandra]

It depends on the game style and campaign if this is manageable, but in general it doesn't work. You'd have to black-market a lot of your lifestyle, and you'd have to go extremely covert to never get spotted by police drones when on a run.

And within SRM, it falls under 'we're not wasting time on dealing with consequences for special play, the rules are X so we can focus on the actual Missions'.

[Overbyte]

At least, that is the way it is for "law abiding" folks. Runners can and sometimes do fall outside this realm. For better or worse.

That's my point. If you are a shadowrunner, you don't have to abide by any of that. And there are tons of rules in the books about being SINless, buying goods without a SIN and living at lower than Medium lifestyles and in bad neighborhoods without police presence. I am by no means saying (and haven't said) that you can (or should try to) go your entire SR career without a SIN but you can (and in some cases SHOULD) start your SR career without one if it fits your concept.

That's how SRM is going to work when the new season starts.  Your socially inept types don't get paid if they don't go.  And what's even more fun is those with certain socially inept negative qualities are required to try to help assist the Face.. they can't control themselves and stay quiet. 

I will say for the record I think that is idiotic.