Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Rymdkejsaren on <06-21-18/0842:19>

Title: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Rymdkejsaren on <06-21-18/0842:19>
Right. I had a good search around on the subject but to my surprise can't find anything on the subject (though I'm sure it must have been discussed).

Is there a remotely believable explanation anywhere to how it's possible to brick items whose functions are primarily mechanical in nature? I'm mostly thinking of guns, but any vehicle running a combustion engine also springs to mind.

The idea that I can attack a gun from the matrix and make it completely useless is, to me, ridiculous. Now, I get it: they want to make hackers more useful and it's another reason for people to bring swords to a gunfight. But I also like a modicum of believability, and if I can't sell it to myself, I know I won't sell it to my players.

I may just house rule and say that bricking a gun means you knock out any wireless functions, and the overload of the electrical systems causes some damage to the mechanical components of the gun, reducing its accuracy by 1.

But I'm happy to hear any other thoughts or ideas.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Marcus on <06-21-18/0909:34>
Guns with a smartgun system are electronically controlled (including firing, and ejecting clips), thus when you brick them they no longer function. You can of course still purchase guns that are purely mechanical, and yes those cannot be bricked, they just aren't going to be as accurate as those with those with a smartgun system.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Rymdkejsaren on <06-21-18/0953:58>
Hmm, OK. So stock guns basically come smartgun ready (because it's assumed people want that), and the smartgun system is deeply integrated with the mechanical parts of the gun so if they fry the gun is unusable. I can accept that.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <06-21-18/0957:33>
Likewise, for Internal Combustion engines if the spark plugs' computer controlled ignition sequencing is disabled, no more vroom vroom.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <06-21-18/1000:08>
Oh, and keep in mind bricking is one of the least efficient things for a decker to do in combat.   It's sad :(

The action economy to hack a gun to death is terrible.  First you have to spend a complex action to find the gun's matrix icon.  Then spend action(s) achieving marks on it.  THEN you can try to hack/brick it.  Three passes in.  By that time the sammie's already killed the guy.

Oh and keep in mind that if the gun's owner realizes at any time the hacker is focusing on his gun, it's just a free action to turn the wireless off.  Decker can't touch it unless he's physically touching it.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Redwulfe on <06-21-18/1005:06>
There is only one moving part when you look at electronic firing systems and that is the bullet. try not to think of these guns as our traditional systems that use a hammer and firing pin to cause the cartridge to combust but instead they operate like the Metal storm system using and electrical charge to fire the bullet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWEqyrKLz6M

This is what is being break causing the gun to be useless.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Sphinx on <06-21-18/1038:02>
Oh, and keep in mind bricking is one of the least efficient things for a decker to do in combat.   It's sad :(

The action economy to hack a gun to death is terrible.  First you have to spend a complex action to find the gun's matrix icon.  Then spend action(s) achieving marks on it.  THEN you can try to hack/brick it.  Three passes in.  By that time the sammie's already killed the guy.

Oh and keep in mind that if the gun's owner realizes at any time the hacker is focusing on his gun, it's just a free action to turn the wireless off.  Decker can't touch it unless he's physically touching it.

This is mostly true, when you're up against professionals with their PANs running silent, who are trained to recognize and respond to hacker attacks. Against a typical goon who's not running silent and has wireless active, you automatically spot the weapon's icon within 100m (p.234), and you don't need any marks first to hit it with a Data Spike (p.239). Just reach out and brick it.

The modern Matrix depends on the fact that everything manufactured for the last decade, from commlinks to toasters to smartguns to teddy bears, has its own wireless transceiver, processor, and bottomless memory. It all meshes together to create the fabric of the Matrix. Essentially, devices generate the Matrix the way living beings generate Astral Space.

You can turn off wireless functionality temporarily, but most people can't be bothered. They want their stuff wirelessly talking to each other, integrated into their PAN. They want their commlink visible online, able to interact with other commlinks and hosts. Turning it off won't be the first instinct for an average Joe. It's not as if they run afoul of hackers every day. Most people probably never will.

If you want to sever something from the Matrix completely, you have to make it a "throwback" (p.421).
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Marcus on <06-21-18/1102:48>
Oh, and keep in mind bricking is one of the least efficient things for a decker to do in combat.   It's sad :(

The action economy to hack a gun to death is terrible.  First you have to spend a complex action to find the gun's matrix icon.  Then spend action(s) achieving marks on it.  THEN you can try to hack/brick it.  Three passes in.  By that time the sammie's already killed the guy.

Oh and keep in mind that if the gun's owner realizes at any time the hacker is focusing on his gun, it's just a free action to turn the wireless off.  Decker can't touch it unless he's physically touching it.

That's not in keeping with the example language and you for sure don't need marks on something to do matrix damage to it.

I guess I need to go review those rules to get exact answers.

Keep in mind making a gun a smartgun costs twice what the gun does. They are full electronic weapons, not mechanical. Sure they have a slide, a barrel, and clip. But that trigger more there for looks then anything, it would more accurate to shoot by mental command. No need ride the trigger, just focus on where the target radical in your vision is, and fire on command. 
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <06-21-18/1104:55>
"Most people" won't have the instinct or training to disable wireless when your gear comes under matrix attack... but I'm not sure how often security personnel are clueless about matrix threats.  They may not want to shut off their commlink as they can't call for help that way... but surely (professional) guards know when your gun starts spitting sparks, shut the wireless off NOW before it stops working altogether......

And yeah if the gun wasn't running silent, sure it's one action to just start sending data spikes w/o marking it first.  But you won't do nearly as much damage w/o marks, and you'll only get one shot before the wireless is turned off...
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Sphinx on <06-21-18/1116:12>
"Most people" won't have the instinct or training to disable wireless when your gear comes under matrix attack... but I'm not sure how often security personnel are clueless about matrix threats.  They may not want to shut off their commlink as they can't call for help that way... but surely (professional) guards know when your gun starts spitting sparks, shut the wireless off NOW before it stops working altogether......

And yeah if the gun wasn't running silent, sure it's one action to just start sending data spikes w/o marking it first.  But you won't do nearly as much damage w/o marks, and you'll only get one shot before the wireless is turned off...

Even if the decker's first action causes the opposition to turn off all their wireless, then they've effectively reduced all (smartgun) attack tests by two dice for the duration. That ain't bad ...
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <06-21-18/1120:09>
If you Dataspike, it means you failed as a hacker. Because it means you didn't take care of disabling the guns BEFORE combat started. What you should have done is score the marks and then eject clips when the fighting starts. Or hack their comms, trace them and paint AROs to let teammates fire through walls at them.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Marcus on <06-21-18/1125:18>

If you wanna build for cybercombat and dataspiking, last time I did the math you could pretty much guarantee to put enough matrix damage through to brick a gun. It's just not en vogue in the accepted decker builds right now. The ironic point being you're gonna use a deck that cost
 most of or more then 100k to brick a gun that cost less then a 1000, and it's as you said it's trick that can be prevented with trip to a pawn shop. The danger of bricking isn't guns, it's cyberware. That's what should keep sam's up at night.




Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Kincaid on <06-21-18/1129:37>
If you Dataspike, it means you failed as a hacker. Because it means you didn't take care of disabling the guns BEFORE combat started. What you should have done is score the marks and then eject clips when the fighting starts. Or hack their comms, trace them and paint AROs to let teammates fire through walls at them.

Absolutely true, but how many Missions encounters begins with, "A van pulls up and its doors open.  Roll initiative."?
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Marcus on <06-21-18/1139:48>
I think that's all too judgmental, the old ways worked fine. Nothing wrong with a good ol'matrix dungeon crawl, cybercombat style, Gonna just hammer though this ICE, and lewt the phatists of paydataz!  Sure we couldn't brick like we can now, but that's all the more reason to brick like we have always dreamed of being able too.

I feel like it's under appreciated with all this crazy HotF nonsense that suddenly become so popular. Sleaze is not the only matrix stat!



Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Kincaid on <06-21-18/1146:07>
Attack deckers are a ton of fun to play.  A TM is going to be better at the "kill all the guns in this room now" game, but with Fork and a good agent, a decker can mow down guns reasonably efficiently.  Just make sure you coordinate target acquisition with the sams so you aren't bricking guns of soon-to-be dead people.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Rymdkejsaren on <06-21-18/1159:48>
Thanks for the (on topic) replies. I have a better idea of why guns are brickable now, and of how I'm going to treat it in my game.

If you want to discuss the use of hacking in combat, do please take it to another topic, thank you.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Xenon on <06-21-18/1453:51>
Just wanted to add that all weapons, not just smartguns, fire caseless ammo and they are also filled with electronics and are wireless enabled by default.

They all display ammo levels and which ammo type you loaded directly to your brain. You can eject the clip with a mental thought (as a free action) rather than touching a physical button (as a simple action). You can also change between firing modes with a mental thought (as a free action) rather than touching the firing mode switch (as a simple action).

Also, if you have a bit of time to set up the attack you should probably look into the new Garbage In/Garbage Out Sleaze Action described in DT p. 178 (a good example given was to rewire  the firearm so that when the trigger is pulled either mechanically or via DNI the firearm will eject the magazine rather than firing a bullet).
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Hobbes on <06-21-18/1707:42>
The GM that gives a group of Runners 10 seconds of prep before a gunfight only does so once.

Flashbang and Chaotic World go off, immediately followed by a thermo-smoke grenade.  Invisible Flying Samurai running Ultrasound kills any NPCs that fail the surprise check with split attacks.  Npcs react by pulling guns that immediately eject clips when they pull the trigger.  PCs second actions take down the remaining NPCs.  Done, fight over in two actions.

On the other hand, it is one way to speed up Shadowrun Combat.  Just let the players win before initiative is rolled.   ;D
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Beta on <06-21-18/1722:29>
The GM that gives a group of Runners 10 seconds of prep before a gunfight only does so once.

Flashbang and Chaotic World go off, immediately followed by a thermo-smoke grenade.  Invisible Flying Samurai running Ultrasound kills any NPCs that fail the surprise check with split attacks.  Npcs react by pulling guns that immediately eject clips when they pull the trigger.  PCs second actions take down the remaining NPCs.  Done, fight over in two actions.

On the other hand, it is one way to speed up Shadowrun Combat.  Just let the players win before initiative is rolled.   ;D

Which is how 'runners are supposed to be doing things, when they get to play to their strengths :D
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Reaver on <06-21-18/1844:32>
The GM that gives a group of Runners 10 seconds of prep before a gunfight only does so once.

Flashbang and Chaotic World go off, immediately followed by a thermo-smoke grenade.  Invisible Flying Samurai running Ultrasound kills any NPCs that fail the surprise check with split attacks.  Npcs react by pulling guns that immediately eject clips when they pull the trigger.  PCs second actions take down the remaining NPCs.  Done, fight over in two actions.

On the other hand, it is one way to speed up Shadowrun Combat.  Just let the players win before initiative is rolled.   ;D

Which is how 'runners are supposed to be doing things, when they get to play to their strengths :D

Agreed.

If my team actually gets to plan the combat, it's over after the 1/3 of the first pass. The other 2.75 seconds are for selfies with the Surprised, Suddenly Dead. :D 
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Marcus on <06-21-18/2100:19>
You gotta give'em a nice surprise round like that every now and then, simply so you can lull them into complacency for the real combats.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: SpellBinder on <06-22-18/0134:02>
Just wait until Murphy shows up.  Two or three of his laws take precedence here, one of which is (or should be) known by practically everyone.

And remember kids, what the players can do, so too can the bad guys.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Rymdkejsaren on <06-22-18/0252:25>
So, after reading further in the equipment chapter, I'm less convinced again. Clearly, not all guns come smartgun ready, nor do they use electric firing systems (the ones that do specifically mention it). So I'm back to square one; it doesn't make sense that guns in general are brickable.

I'm struggling with how to deal with this, because either I'll have to go with my original plan (you can't brick guns that rely on mechanical workings to fire bullets), or I'll have to modify the equipment lists. I thought the smartgun system was something integrated into the gun, but as it turns out it's something you can mount externally. Frying that would have no effect on its capacity to fire bullets.

Does this not bother anyone else? Isn't it something your players ask? Because it makes no sense.

Please only post if you have something to say about the original topic, thank you.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Streetsam_Crunch on <06-22-18/0309:27>
Hoi, Rymdkejsaren!

You're not alone in that line of thought, and have made that distinction myself. Funny enough, I never even thought to ask the question, and just rolled with the idea that if guns aren't modified for smartlink and/or or have electronic parts. That's just seemed common sense to me.

This is not to say guns don't have a matrix presence in general though. You can 'tag' standard weapons (since everything is apparently 'tagged' in some way for commercial or legal purposes- like that you have a gun, and *click* here's the license for you to carry it). Now *that* I have generally presumed unless players take steps to remove or alter those tags (which can be done easily and cheaply with a common tag-eraser).  It's also fairly safe to assume that black market purchased guns have either had their tags erased or altered in some way as well.

For example- Street punks and gutterscum are not likely to have smartlinks, and likely have the tags erased on their guns, which can make them dangerous due to their unpredictability in what they may be packing. Also, while yes, it's likely corporate security types will have smartlink systems they'll also, as others have suggested, be more savvy about their weapons getting hacked.

Conversely, I've personally considered a build for a streetsam that's loaded up all their weapons and cyberware with IC Agent programs that will attack intruders and alert the 'sam that someone's attempting to hack them. Why trust the Decker in your group alone to cover your 'ware, when you can give them friends to help watch over you, right?

Crunch~
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <06-22-18/0501:31>
If your gun is in the matrix, it can be bricked. If it is offline, it cannot. If you don't want to be hackable, use a wire and skip the wireless bonuses.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Marcus on <06-22-18/0543:47>
If the gun works with the smartlink implant, ie (increased accuracy by 2, give +2 dice to attack with the gun, able to fire from mental commands, able to eject clips as mental command, see around corners, etc) the weapon must be electronically controlled. If you choose to mount the processor and required components on top of the gun instead of inside it, you just leave it more vulnerable to breakage. But ether way all internal components still have to have been converted in order system to functions and thus give the bonuses listed above. Systematically it's that simple.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Rymdkejsaren on <06-22-18/0826:09>
If your gun is in the matrix, it can be bricked. If it is offline, it cannot. If you don't want to be hackable, use a wire and skip the wireless bonuses.

I know the rules, I was looking for an explanation of the rules that made sense. I didn't find one. While I'm willing to suspend my disbelief about a number of things about the Shadowrun universe, something so fundamentally illogical will break believability for me.

You're not alone in that line of thought, and have made that distinction myself. Funny enough, I never even thought to ask the question, and just rolled with the idea that if guns aren't modified for smartlink and/or or have electronic parts. That's just seemed common sense to me.

Yeah, I'd prefer a catch-all solution, but I can't see one that makes sense. I think I'll go with a case-by-case basis too, i.e. if it has a smartlink or an electric firing mechanism, you can brick it.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Xenon on <06-22-18/0912:56>
Rymdkejsaren, you are overthinking this too much :-)

There was no way for people 50 years ago to even imagine stuff we take for granted (like the internet or a regular smartphone). Even vehicles of 2018 are stuffed with electronics, computers, wireless keys, ability to adjust the speed, keep in the lane and, park themselves and even drive themselves.

Also this game features magic. And dragons.


If it is wireless enabled then it can be bricked.
If it is not wireless enabled then it cannot be bricked.


You are eligible for many of your smartgun features (compensate for wind, fire around corners without exposing yourself and +2 accuracy by tracking ammunition, heat buildup and material stress) even if you disable wireless instead connect it with a wire directly to your smart goggles (or your datajack if you are using an internal smarlink).


You can brick any wireless enabled firearm (even if it isn't an internal smargun or if it is not using an electronic firing mechanism). The official fluff reason why it can't fire after it is bricked is because: "mechanical parts are fused or gummed up with melted internals".


SR5 p. 228 Bricking
If a device is bricked, it stops working: batteries are drained, mechanical parts are fused or gummed up with melted internals, and so on. That said, not all devices are completely useless when bricked. A vibrosword is still sharp, a roto-drone glides to the ground on auto-gyro, a lock stays locked. The firing pin on an assault rifle might not work, but its bayonet works just fine for stabbing smug hackers. And you can’t exactly brick a katana, ne? And don’t panic when your trickedout combat bike gets bricked; it will ride again … if you know a competent technician.



I would not be too worried about bricking if I were you. It is just a free action to turn wireless off and as many in this and the other thread already showcased it is often far more efficient to just bring up a pistol and shoot some bad guys rather than trying to eject a their clips or trying to brick their guns.


SR5 p. 421 Turning it off
Toggling an individual device’s wireless functionality off is a Free Action, as is toggling all of your wireless devices to “wireless off.” You lose wireless bonuses, but the items can no longer be wirelessly hacked.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Reaver on <06-22-18/1203:50>
Hey  Rymdkejsaren, I too an some what of a gun nut, with a personal collection of over 80 firearms of all types. So, I know you pain :p

But, surprisingly, some of the tech that is shadowrun has been around for 30+ years in the Real firearms world. And there is some universal changes to weapons you should be aware of.

First off, take almost all of your prior knowledge of guns, and get ready to get rid of it :P

I can't put my finger on the exact in game date of the change, but electronic firing became the norm sometime around 2058 (that is when most of the guns, and supplements printed in 3e started mentioning electronic firing either in the stats blocks or the fluff write ups). Since then, ALL firearms are electronic firing, which means there is no mechanical hammer that is released with a press of the trigger: Instead a spark is created which ignites the round.

This is possible because all ammo in the 2070s is caseless ammo, meaning there is no brass and no firing cap. All there is a form factor abutment of propellant attached to the end of the bullet.
This also means there is no expended brass to trip over, or get down a shirt collar, or to run ejection mark matching.

None of this really is new tech as Heckler and Koch developed the G11 assault rifle in the 1970s which fired a 4.7mm caseless round through electronic firing (piezoelectric).


Aside from this, there is also the "balance of play" issue. This is the 5th edition of the rules, and the hacking of gear in such ways is new to the last 2 editions. this is implemented because of a huge problem that was found in the older editions of the rules; The decking mini game.

During the first 3 editions of the game, thanks to design elements, deckers really were a "solo" class unto themselves, with little other purpose then to hack doors and steal data. But in just hacking the average door required upwards of 30 minutes with dozens of rolls as the Decker hopped from node to node looking for the right file to hack..... which meant you hoped you played somewhere with a game console while the other 3 - 4 players waited 30 minutes for the decker to open the door.  And, thanks to the way character where built back then, a Decker really couldn't branch out to be effective anywhere other then the matrix.....

So, they looked at ways of increasing Decker usefulness outside of just being a passkey and a xerox machine.
Hacking of gear was a logical step, along with cleaning up the matrix and how its was hacked. (and those that think it is a mess now... how much you have forgotten - Or never knew!)
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Redwulfe on <06-22-18/1435:25>
Though Firearms may not be completely electronic when firing they like the cars of today have many electronic parts and even if they have a mechanical hammer and firing pin who is not to say that this mechanical gun of the future doesn't now use a trigger operated solenoid to release the hammer because the integrated circuit board replaced the release lever and fire selector located there 50 years ago. Paintball guns use solenoid firing mechanisms like this today, maybe this was adapted in the future. This means that even mechanical guns can be bricked by fusing the electronics which even if they didn't use a solenoid firing system would interfere with the hammer connecting to whatever, but hey you now can get readouts of your ammo counts and we can modify that board to integrate a smartgun system, eject magazines for faster loading times, or even switch the fire selector with but a thought.

another reason could come from over heating, you can warp a barrel with heat build up today, maybe this is another way to explain the malfunctioning of the gun when the electronic components heat up too much it could case the release lever to warp, or maybe its just the safety system and fire selector that is electronic and bricking the gun causes the safety to automatically engage as part of a safety procedure that triggers in case of electronic failure or heat build up next to bullets.

Yes solely mechanical firing is easier in the modern world but the combustion engine didn't truly need a computer either and look at where we are. Now we have more options than ever before with our cars and in 2077 you have more options ever with your firearms. Any of the above rationales can explain why a mechanical gun could malfunction when bricked.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Rymdkejsaren on <06-22-18/1530:10>
I'm not looking for realism, just believability. I know the setting is pulpy, retro cyberpunk and there are a ton of things that don't make sense; it's a throwback to ideas of what future technology might be that are 30 years old. Though I find it clashes sometimes when it appears the writers have tried to upgrade it with modern ideas, but have only gone half the way. Side note: I don't find the fact that the setting has dragons and magic relevant to my question. Guns aren't powered by mana, and even magic follows rules in Shadowrun.

The book states in several places that ammo with casing is still a thing (because people want to look cool) and that only a few select guns have electric firing mechanisms. Many of the pictured guns have hammers, and they don't all come with built-in smartgun systems. So I was confused, and I came here asking because I was genuinely interested if there was an explanation that I had somehow missed. There doesn't appear to be. That's fine, although I wish it had been expressed more clearly in the book.

What it comes down to is simple: if I were a player and someone melted my revolver because it had a laser sight attached to it, I'd be confused as hell and I would feel cheated. I don't want to put my players through that, so I'll houserule it somehow so that it maintains believability in my eyes. I'm not sure how, yet, but at least I know where things stand.

Thanks to everyone who helped clear this up. Never stop running!  8)
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Redwulfe on <06-22-18/1554:28>
I think that is the disconnect. you seem to think that a gun that does not have the electronic firing mechanism descriptor has no electronic components, even though the book say that all of them do.

Mechanical guns, those without the descriptor, still have some electronic components they just use a mechanical means to spark the primer. Basically a firing pin. Electronic Firing mechanism means they use an electronic spark to ignite the propellent instead.

When you look at a gasoline powered engine you would describe it as a mechanical engine even though it has a computer. And if only a few cars had the descriptor electric engine it would not mean that all other cars had no electronic components.

Attaching a laser sight has nothing to do with being able to brick a gun. The electronic components in the mechanical gun has everything to do with bricking a gun.

If something is realistic shouldn't it be believable? you could be right but I am confused on that one.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Hobbes on <06-22-18/1601:05>
What it comes down to is simple: if I were a player and someone melted my revolver because it had a laser sight attached to it,

To be clear, you don't need some electronic gadget strapped on to a piece of gear to brick that gear.  Everything is wireless, everything can be bricked.  Some things that doesn't matter much.  Bricked bootlaces don't become untied, they just no longer send you a handy warning when they're getting loose.  Knives still stab just fine, you just don't get a GPS signal from them so you can find them in the dark after you've thrown them.  Your pants no longer tell you when your fly is down, or if they need to be ironed.  Stuff like that.

Guns, First Aid Kits, Drones, Cars, Cyberware, Commlinks, Assorted sensors and whatnot all stop working when bricked.  Mostly to give Deckers a reason to keep hacking in combat, not for any "realism". 

As mentioned, if you want gear that doesn't get bricked you want to use Throwback items or turn off Wireless functionality.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <06-22-18/1617:45>
Also: The gun isn't melted down. It can be easily fixed again, doesn't require you to do a massive repair. It just had some electronics fried, resulting in it no longer firing. And yes, you can have a gun without electronics, a throwback. But then you can't install a lasersight on it and get the wireless bonus from that, because it doesn't have the electronics in there to support it.

If your players don't want bricked guns, they shouldn't use wireless bonuses on them. It's that simple. You don't use a commlink if you fear it gets hacked, you don't run your cyberarms in wireless, you don't run your gun wireless. But that means you can't get called, some actions become Simple or Complex, and you don't get the wireless bonus.

If you're not fair and open to your players, then yeah they might feel cheated. But that is something you control as a GM, it's not a flaw in the material.

If you want to houserule this, I assume you're also houseruling Gremlins to no longer apply to firearms?
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Hobbes on <06-22-18/1710:38>
Also: The gun isn't melted down. It can be easily fixed again, doesn't require you to do a massive repair.

That's an important point.  "Bricking" has really the wrong context for Matrix damage.  IRL a "Bricked" item is typically done for.  In Shadowrun a device that has it's Matrix Condition Monitor filled is an easy fix.  One Hardware + Logic test later the item is returned to functionality.  I forget the time interval on the extended test, but get one box back and the device is working again (with penalties). 

A 2 Logic, 1 Hardware Troll Sami with a Commlink and basic tools can fix a few boxes of Matrix damage given a bit of time.

Also, repairing Matrix Damage has no cost, just time.  If you've got a Hardware toolkit and a Commlink you can probably get enough dice to get a box back by defaulting.  Don't glitch though  :  )

Edit: Base time one hour, no penalties for Matrix Damage.  So, yeah, about an hour to get your Matrix damaged device running again.  Just need a Hardware tool kit and a Matrix connection.  A 2 Karma investment in Hardware doesn't hurt. 
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Xenon on <06-22-18/1947:18>
Fluff-wise bricking is really spectacular and during a combat situation a firearm will be rendered pretty useless at least for the duration of the fight, but crunch-wise you don't need much down-time at all to restore at least one box of matrix damage (which is enough for full functionality).

With a few successes it just take between 4-8 minutes.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Streetsam_Crunch on <06-23-18/0401:51>
I'm with Rymdkejsaren in that if it isn't smartlink wireless enabled, or otherwise has its 'guts' on some kind of wireless capability, I just don't see that level of control of one from the outside. Seems like too much of a risk. If your gun can get hacked pretty much no matter what, why not *always* get the smartlink?

Like I said, I kind of see it as common sense. If just possessing a gun means you're likely to get it bricked, there's no reason NOT to go old-school and get ones with the old fashioned hammer mechanics, or just go full-bore and get the smartlink (and a hefty agent program to protect it) with very little differentiation in between, and runners arguing the merits of each in the downtime.

Now, because it's basically said that guns are off-the-shelf tagged to display on the matrix as guns (and the corresponding license to carry it in the user's PAN- Would you like to know more? *click*) that doesn't mean a decker can't mess with them somehow, like other discussions with the wrapper program and such.

In my mind IF there was a way to brick it quickly, it would be that the gun would *require* that license and ID in the user's PAN in order to operate- which would double as a safety feature of the gun as well since nobody other than the 'owner' of the gun should be able to fire it... like an automatic safety feature. A Decker would then, theoretically, be able to quickly alter the protocol enough to have the gun not recognize its authorized user (probably nobody else either- that would require more time and hacking)

However, that's not stated in the books, and besides what runner would keep that kind of liability/identity attached to their guns? At that point, as I said, everyone would equip smartlinks and go wired all the time to bypass it or go full primitive.

I think the threat of hacking guns is more a risk from using wireless smartlink capabilities. Most of the examples I've seen for it *seem* to work on that assumption as well.

I just find it hard to presume that *all* firearms are somehow subject to hacking, is all.

Quote from: Michael Chandra
If you want to houserule this, I assume you're also houseruling Gremlins to no longer apply to firearms?

Not necessary. I wouldn't. Gremlins states all technological devices, not just wireless ones, so there's no distinction. Plus the reasons for that quality can come from a number of things- from just somehow being unlucky with tech, to being cursed by someone in their backstory, to spirit problems or mental issues (my combat mage, Hodge, was a squatter/wanderer/hobo in Chicago that really was uncomfortable being around anything technological... they had 'the hum' to them. Wired buildings had 'the hum' in the walls, and fates forbid he had to get on an elevator- he always took the stairs, no matter how high, also had a tendency to lose/break his cheap comlinks- "Hobo With a Shotgun" and "Gremlins" rank 2 ;) )


Crunch~
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Rymdkejsaren on <06-23-18/0411:50>
Hey, I'm happy to listen to everyone's thoughts and opinions and I'm fine if people don't agree with me. We all run the game the way we want, that's the beauty of the hobby. I can chop Shadowrun up and sell it for parts when I GM, and someone else can run it die-hard by the book. It doesn't matter what others think as long as the people involved are having fun!

Peace out.  :)
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Streetsam_Crunch on <06-23-18/0418:17>
True story, chummer! ;D

That's why most of the time I preface with "I think" or "In my games..." Every GM and play group has its own style and expectations. It's one of the things I enjoy when I play at cons, or when I get to play with other GM's (since I run it with our group). Even if there's differences, it's always fun and interesting seeing what comes out of any given run.

Crunch~
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <06-23-18/0426:55>
Huh? Why would we not be talking about hacking guns with wireless bonuses? We were talking about toys that have wireless bonuses after all. Of course your gun isn't hackable if it's not employing a wireless thing and is offline.

As for Gremlins: if the gun isn't complicated enough to become temporarily (until you do a free repair) unusable when its electronics are fried, why would it be complicated enough to malfunction?
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Xenon on <06-23-18/0532:47>
I just find it hard to presume that *all* firearms are somehow subject to hacking, is all.
I can't find anything in the rules as written suggesting that you can only brick a wireless enabled firearm if it have an internal smartgun system.


Rather, the general consensus for SR5 seem to be that:
- If it is wireless enabled it can be bricked.
- If it is not wireless enabled then it cannot be bricked.


According to the book any wireless enabled device (such as a wireless enabled firearm with or without internal or external smartgun) have a matrix condition monitor:

SR5 p. Matrix Damage
Each device in the Matrix has a Matrix Condition Monitor. This represents the device’s ability to handle damaging code designed to make the device do things it’s not supposed to do. As a device gets damaged, it overheats, suffers power spikes and dips, shorts out as components start failing, and eventually becomes damaged beyond functionality.


According to the book the act of bricking a wireless enabled device (such as a wireless enabled firearm with or without internal or external smartgun) is supposedly always quite spectacular:

SR5 p. 228 Bricking
Devices that are bricked never fail non-spectacularly. Smoke, sparks, pops, bangs, sizzles, nasty smells, and occasionally even small fires are common features of a device in the process of becoming a brick.


According to the book this is what actually happen when you brick a wireless enabled device (such as a wireless enabled firearm with or without internal or external smartgun):

SR5 p. 228 Bricking
If a device is bricked, it stops working: ... mechanical parts are fused or gummed up with melted internals...The firing pin on an assault rifle might not work, but its bayonet works just fine for stabbing smug hackers.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Rymdkejsaren on <06-23-18/0628:08>
I think it's my mistake for putting this in the rules section of the forums instead of somewhere more appropriate, like general chat. I didn't intend to question the rules on the subject, which I find are quite clear. I wanted a believable answer to the question I know my players will ask if I play it by the rules: "How is it possible to burn out a revolver with an electronic attack?"
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Xenon on <06-23-18/0846:46>
"How is it possible to burn out a revolver with an electronic attack?"
Just like a modern car contain a shitload of electronics and doesn't even have an ignition that is triggered by a mechanical key, 50+ years from now all revolvers will also contain a shit load of electronics (electronic trigger mechanism, electronic triggered caseless ammo, electronic sensors for checking ammo types and levels, small on-board computer, wireless transmitters etc etc). Because authors of SR5 wanted to make deckers and TMs useful in combat they gave them the option to send harmful instructions (SR5 p. 239 Data Spike) to your wireless firearm which will cause them internals to overheat and melt which will fuse or gum up the mechanical parts of the firearm which will prevent you from firing it.

As your firearm receives matrix damage it will suffer power spikes and dips and the AROs displaying ammo levels and ammo types etc will start to flicker and short out as components start failing. To prevent further damage you may spend a free action to turn wireless off. The firearm will work flawless as long as it have at least one box left in its matrix condition monitor. If it gets fully bricked it generally take 4-8 minutes or so to repair it well enough to restore full functionality.

If you are paranoid you also have the option to rip out all the electronics and convert your revolver into a fully mechanical device. This is resolved with a Hardware + Logic [Mental] (8, 10 minutes) Extended Test (SR5 p. 421 Throwbacks). A throwback revolver is immune to bricking attempts.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <06-23-18/0852:52>
"How is it possible to burn out a revolver with an electronic attack?"
The same way a revolver can provide your smart link with info about barrel temperature and ammo count, can let you fire it or pop it open for recharging with a thought and can connect to the Cloud for some cloud computing to provide you with extra dice: electronic technobabble. And when those electronics short out, you need to grab a toolkit and go in there to fix the short. If that's not enough for you, then just remove all wireless bonuses and make them wired.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Mirikon on <06-23-18/0947:08>
Bricking guns was one of those stupid things the devs put in this edition because they deliberately killed the hacker in the van running overwatch, editing cameras on the fly, and so on. Part of running the nostalgia train full speed with the new matrix. It isn't as bad as what they did to TMs though.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Streetsam_Crunch on <06-23-18/1607:00>
Huh? Why would we not be talking about hacking guns with wireless bonuses? We were talking about toys that have wireless bonuses after all. Of course your gun isn't hackable if it's not employing a wireless thing and is offline.

I was just clarifying, for myself if nothing else. Some of the posts gave me the impression that all guns were somehow hackable. That may have been on me, and that it was 3 am when I was reading this ;)

Quote
As for Gremlins: if the gun isn't complicated enough to become temporarily (until you do a free repair) unusable when its electronics are fried, why would it be complicated enough to malfunction?

Because gremlins specifically states electronic OR mechanical devices (to me, mechanical would include things like throwback triggers, leading to jams or misfires). It also uses the term 'inexplicably' breaks down, meaning there's not necessarily a logical reason why it should, just that it does. Then again, maybe I take a harder line on it than most in my mind. Still, it never came up on my character (mostly due to roleplay and my character's reticence to use any tech, I imagine) or the player I had that picked it up. it is just less 1's to require a glitch, and I had the level 2 quality, and they only had a level 1. Granted, none of my Missions GM's at con had me roll to use my comlink...

I pity the fool that picks up the full level 4 quality, though. That's just asking for a GM to mess with you. :P

Crunch~
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Hobbes on <06-23-18/1741:07>
I was just clarifying, for myself if nothing else. Some of the posts gave me the impression that all guns were somehow hackable. That may have been on me, and that it was 3 am when I was reading this ;)


Warning, needless pedantic post incoming.

Everything in 5th Edition is Hackable except Throwback devices or something that is wireless off.  Your shoes, your coffee cup, your sandwich, your toothpaste.... all of it.  Hackable.  All of it providing a constant stream of information to you and your corporate overlords.  Mind you what you can accomplish by hacking someone's toothpaste isn't meaningful in game terms.  Edit File so they only brush their teeth for 110 seconds instead of the full two minutes so the chance of tooth decay over the years is increased by .00001% maybe.  Or if they've got the fancy Smartpaste by Evo!  (Sales really tanked during the CFD scare but it's coming back around...) block the tartar build up notification?  *shrug*

Anyway.  Everything.  Hackable.  All the time.  Most of it useless in game terms. 

Shadowrunners, and the folks we interact with in a meaningful way, will have taken some basic precautions.  Like turning off Wireless on devices that don't provide a Wireless bonus, slaving the useful ones to a PAN, hiring a Decker or Agent to watch over our Matrix vulnerabilities and all that.

It's safe to presume that a professional will have deactivated wireless on a gun that doesn't have any wireless bonus.  And Slaved a smartgun (or whatever) to a Commlink if they have a decent one available and set it to run Silent.  It is also safe to presume that gangers, rent-a-cops, inexperienced criminals, and other non-Shadowrunners will likely have left the Wireless on even if it's not smartlinked.  The real amateurs won't even be running silent.   
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on <06-25-18/1215:14>
Everything in 5th Edition is Hackable except Throwback devices or something that is wireless off.

Small correction needed here.

Everything in 5th Edition is Hackable.  Full.  Stop.

The only thing that Throwback's and Wireless Off enjoy is that they are not Wirelessly Hackable.

Yes, even if you have an 1880's antique firearm, for some reason in SR5 it has electronics added, and can therefor be bricked.

For reference:
Quote from: SR5 Core, 2nd Printing, page 421
THROWBACKS
Some devices are throwbacks, devices that do not have wireless capability. While they still exist, they are becoming more and more rare in the 2070s. Throwbacks cannot be accessed by wireless connection, and so can neither be controlled remotely nor gain a wireless bonus.

If you consider a device’s wireless link to be a nuisance, you can turn it into a throwback with a Hardware + Logic [Mental] (8, 10 minutes) Extended Test—or simply purchase the device as a throwback in the first place (always an option, though it may get you some funny looks).

While throwbacks are immune to hacking via the wireless Matrix, all devices have a universal access port.  Devices can be connected with a data cable with little problem. If you’ve got a datajack, you can use its included spooled data filament to connect to a throwback directly, which means nothing is completely safe from a hacker with a datajack. Of course, if a hacker is able to sneak up to you and plug into your gun, you might have bigger problems than hacking attacks from the Matrix.

One of the many things that customers are still waiting for sensible errata for....
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Mirikon on <06-26-18/0320:12>
And this is what happens when you go full steam on the nostalgia train without thinking how it fucks everything else up.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Marcus on <06-26-18/0502:42>
Being able to brick things is hardly some terrible reality of the system. Further it's relationship to nostalgia is a best tenuous. It was possible to hack gear in 3rd, but it was never done, at any table i was at. The action economy on was terrible, the most common decking builds from third i was used  was a datajack bearing mage, who also was a great decker. Bring back Deckers after the complete destruction of the archetype in 4th is perfectly reasonable thing to do. In a very real sense, Deckers were at the heart of Shadowrun sense first. Essentially all supplements have been written with perspective of a group of wise cracking deckers. It get hard to justify that when there are no more deckers. So I would call the restoration of the Archetype more along the lines of Common sense, then some sort of twisted Nostalgia based emotional silliness. Giving decker the ability to disable basically any unprotected tech also fits within their bailiwick. I don't think it makes them overly strong, and how many times have you seen stuff bricked in 5th? It's still just not the en vogue method of hacking.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Mirikon on <06-27-18/1250:55>
Being able to brick things is hardly some terrible reality of the system. Further it's relationship to nostalgia is a best tenuous. It was possible to hack gear in 3rd, but it was never done, at any table i was at. The action economy on was terrible, the most common decking builds from third i was used  was a datajack bearing mage, who also was a great decker. Bring back Deckers after the complete destruction of the archetype in 4th is perfectly reasonable thing to do. In a very real sense, Deckers were at the heart of Shadowrun sense first. Essentially all supplements have been written with perspective of a group of wise cracking deckers. It get hard to justify that when there are no more deckers. So I would call the restoration of the Archetype more along the lines of Common sense, then some sort of twisted Nostalgia based emotional silliness. Giving decker the ability to disable basically any unprotected tech also fits within their bailiwick. I don't think it makes them overly strong, and how many times have you seen stuff bricked in 5th? It's still just not the en vogue method of hacking.
Let me break down my thoughts on it.

First, the nostalgia train of going back to something like the old Matrix (because its only crashed twice, causing untold devastation each time, so what could possibly go wrong with going back to that model?) had ripple effects throughout all the matrix-users. The de facto class separation of riggers and deckers, making it impossible for anyone to make a hybrid style or do both was intentional, and a seriously craptacular idea at the same time. When the average group is 4-5 people, with only one of them being a Matrix type, that leaves gaping holes in your squad if someone can't at least sing a few bars on the other side of that duality. And because of the resources required for decks/RCCs and the return of the godawful Priority system, it is essentially impossible for anyone else to sideline as a decker/rigger to cover those roles.

Second, the fact that you're basically getting locked in to one of a few play styles bugs the everloving fuck out of me. In 4e, you could still be the 'old style' combat hacker, going in with the group and getting the intel off a standalone system and then helping with the gun battles as you got out of dodge. You could also be the man in the van, running overwatch, editing cameras on the fly, opening doors, suppressing alarms, and generally making life as easy as possible for the rest of the group. Or you could do a hybrid of these, kicking back in the van while you have a drone presence going with the group, either as an additional gun, or to tap into standalone systems for you, and so on.

Third, the reason that no one hacked gear in 3rd was because most gear worth hacking was secured unless you got a direct connection. Hell, in 4th it was pretty much the same, unless you managed to hack into someone's PAN. But even then, it was still a situation where if you'd gotten to that point there were probably better things you could be doing to the enemy than bricking their guns. But when they fucked matrix players over and took away the option for hackers to be anything but deckers or technomancers (and the absolute assraping TMs got is another topic entirely), they decided to fuck everyone else over as well by making ALL gear hackable unless you deliberately removed functionality, and made it nigh impossible for someone who wasn't a decker to properly secure their gear (while TMs can't secure their own CLOTHES), so that everyone got that trickle down fucking.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Redwulfe on <06-27-18/1427:09>
Maybe I am running this wrong but I don't think so. To me bricking someone is not an easy task. This will be long and feel free to snip if you decide to reply.

Situation a Street sam is on a run with his team and dreck hits the fan. The opposing teams decker was already in VR for this random encounter but we will give it to him since we want to brick stuff. the Street Sam being a smart man has his gear running silent, not wirelessly off, since who cares if they take a -2 to matrix tests.

Deckers action: He automatically sees that the Sam has no Icons visible and knows that that means he is running silent. So he decides to focus on the Sams eyes to muck up his day. Complex action Matrix perception to spot little Sammies silent running eyes because you can't hack an icon that you can't see. Now since Sammy did not use a device mod to add sleaze 6 to his eyes and let the decker set up his defense he has on rely on his logic only to defend himself from the icon being seen. We will say the decker gets the one success needed to see the eyes.

At this point it would matter if the GM rules that the camera, eyes and datastorage, that is in all devices of the sixth world, in the eyes each have a unique icon in the overall eyes package. If they do then the decker has spotted one icon out of three and it is random which it is. We will say that it is all just one icon to make it easier on the decker. We will also say that the Sam is not wearing a ballistics mask, another icon or grouping of icons. You know what hacking the gun would probably be easier as it is just one icon, unless the smart gun is an icon separate from the gun, not to mention the clip having data storage as well or that he might have wiring in his arm like wired reflexes or a cyber arm.

This would make it way to hard to brick something so lets just say its just the eyes and the eyes alone. Decker is done with his turn and he has spotted the eyes, now for the Sammy to go, whoops their went one of the security guards, man Down!!

Sammies deckers turn: He decided to play miracle shooter instead of helping the team by finding the decker and engaging in cybercombat. We already know he didn't set up the teams wireless defenses when they meet or Sammy wouldn't be using his own logic to defend his eyes.

Rest of Sammies team: Hope they brought a bunch of guards to the random encounter.

Decker: Complex action data spike attack, This will be the hackers cybercombat + logic, we will say he is amazing at this and give him 16 dice, against the the sam's intuition, because once again the decker didn't set the device up and the firewall and we will assume the the sam didn't buy a link that had a good firewall. So 3 dice? if we buy hits the decker gets 3 net. And we will say he was set up for attack in the random encounter so this is 9 damage. Then the eyes get to resist the damage with rating, not alpha,  2, + firewall, shyte link 1 so that means 8 damage gets through. Since the eyes are device rating 2 it has 8 boxes and is bricked.

Sammies turn: Switch interface mode or device mode or what not, simple or free action depending on GM to DNI to the Guns smart gun camera continue to kill but remembers to have a word with the teams decker for being a tool.

In this situation we took many of the ways a sam or anyone can use to keep a hacker from bricking their stuff away from him we could have even took running silent away but that would be too much I think.

1. Let the hacker set up your preferences, you will use his will, logic, and intuition to defend yourself in matrix stuff.
2. Run Silent. If they are running silent then they will take a -2 which makes you harder to brick.
3. have two grid subscriptions so you can be on a grid that is not likely to be used by the corp you are hitting. this means they are crossing girds to hack you, another -2. this puts their 16 dice down to a 12, more than likely or they have to run hot and your decker can spot them easier.
4. Layer hidden icons puts the perceiver on a random chance to get the right one. The more the better.
5. slave to a blue defender, it has a 7 firewall, this means with the above you are looking at a 12+ defense versus their 12 attack. I like those odds.
6. Make sure your decker actually cares about defending you instead of trying to brick stuff, as it is way to slow and they could be engaging in combat, suppressive firing down a group of guards, keeping other guards from knowing that you are here by setting off a jammer to cut communications, give teamwork bonuses through their leadership skill, throwing a flash bag, or anything that is much more effective when helping the team.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <06-27-18/1557:36>
The way RAW is on spotting matrix icons, spending only 1 action to identify the device you intend to hack is pretty improbably low.

Per RAW, you pick at random which hidden icon you're identifying.  All someone has to do is carry around a roll of a couple dozen (or hundred!) stealth tags and he's functionally unhackable.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Marcus on <06-27-18/1612:05>
I certainly agree they made it impossible to be a Decker rigger at least out of starting resources, I still don't see that as a bad thing. Rigger is a separate archetype just as decker is; creating role protection is good game design. While I understand the frustration of going to the Priority over the BP, it is classic component of the game, and it has it's uses.  I disagree with the statement that you can't make a combat decker. It's certainly possible, sure odds are you won't be as fast the as a full on street sam, but my last combat decker had decent initiative, 20 dice soak, decent dodge,  21 dice for heavy pistols, and melee'd with 18 all while decking with solid pools. So you can certainly achieve decent combat results.

I agree with your assessment concerning gear hacking in past editions in general certainly concerning the direct fact I agree that how it was. I still don't feel like everyone is screwed over by it. When i completed my CIS degree I made a course on computer consturtion, and we quickly released was, eventually we will have computer in everything. Computer in your shoes to tell you how slipper the ground is, or how many steps you took, or where you dropped your left shoe. Computers in your coat to control how warm it is, so it can turn on the heating or cooling system. Computers in chopsticks so they can play logos while you use them. There nothing wrong or unrealistic about the reality all of that should exist and further that it should be hackable. So I just don't see how that upsets the apple cart. The places we are concerned about are Combat as it's always a question of action economy, and can decker fulfill their role on runs, I think they can. Are you better or worse off if the decker starts bricking guns? Trying to create perfect invulnerable character isn't very interesting' playing superman isn't fun for very long. Adding a brick proof alternative isn't hard or expensive, should you run afoul of situation that requires it. But the path least resistance say it's not that huge a problem generally.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Reaver on <06-27-18/1702:09>
Being able to brick things is hardly some terrible reality of the system. Further it's relationship to nostalgia is a best tenuous. It was possible to hack gear in 3rd, but it was never done, at any table i was at. The action economy on was terrible, the most common decking builds from third i was used  was a datajack bearing mage, who also was a great decker. Bring back Deckers after the complete destruction of the archetype in 4th is perfectly reasonable thing to do. In a very real sense, Deckers were at the heart of Shadowrun sense first. Essentially all supplements have been written with perspective of a group of wise cracking deckers. It get hard to justify that when there are no more deckers. So I would call the restoration of the Archetype more along the lines of Common sense, then some sort of twisted Nostalgia based emotional silliness. Giving decker the ability to disable basically any unprotected tech also fits within their bailiwick. I don't think it makes them overly strong, and how many times have you seen stuff bricked in 5th? It's still just not the en vogue method of hacking.
Let me break down my thoughts on it.

First, the nostalgia train of going back to something like the old Matrix (because its only crashed twice, causing untold devastation each time, so what could possibly go wrong with going back to that model?) had ripple effects throughout all the matrix-users. The de facto class separation of riggers and deckers, making it impossible for anyone to make a hybrid style or do both was intentional, and a seriously craptacular idea at the same time. When the average group is 4-5 people, with only one of them being a Matrix type, that leaves gaping holes in your squad if someone can't at least sing a few bars on the other side of that duality. And because of the resources required for decks/RCCs and the return of the godawful Priority system, it is essentially impossible for anyone else to sideline as a decker/rigger to cover those roles.

Second, the fact that you're basically getting locked in to one of a few play styles bugs the everloving fuck out of me. In 4e, you could still be the 'old style' combat hacker, going in with the group and getting the intel off a standalone system and then helping with the gun battles as you got out of dodge. You could also be the man in the van, running overwatch, editing cameras on the fly, opening doors, suppressing alarms, and generally making life as easy as possible for the rest of the group. Or you could do a hybrid of these, kicking back in the van while you have a drone presence going with the group, either as an additional gun, or to tap into standalone systems for you, and so on.

Third, the reason that no one hacked gear in 3rd was because most gear worth hacking was secured unless you got a direct connection. Hell, in 4th it was pretty much the same, unless you managed to hack into someone's PAN. But even then, it was still a situation where if you'd gotten to that point there were probably better things you could be doing to the enemy than bricking their guns. But when they fucked matrix players over and took away the option for hackers to be anything but deckers or technomancers (and the absolute assraping TMs got is another topic entirely), they decided to fuck everyone else over as well by making ALL gear hackable unless you deliberately removed functionality, and made it nigh impossible for someone who wasn't a decker to properly secure their gear (while TMs can't secure their own CLOTHES), so that everyone got that trickle down fucking.
[/size]

That's one perspective. But my experience with 4e is very different, as well as that old "nostalgia train" as you put it.
But first, some perspective of where I am coming from. I have played SR since 1e, and have played it alot; averaging a least on game a week since forever. While I was overseas working, It was more like 3 or 4 games a week. (Simply because your entertainment options are limited when leaving the building is deadly, you don't speak the language or share the culture)  My player base was around 30 players and about 6 different GMs at the high end of playing, so not just a limited couple of players playing all the time. (although I do have the same group of friends, that I still play with, playing some of our most original characters in to this day; basically a continuous 30 year campaign..)

Editions 1 through 3 where steady improvements in the "floating target number" system of SR, with totally different mechanics and attributes than what we are used to in 4e/5e. They are much more complex, and came with their own hosts of problems for game play.

Some of the problems, in a general sense I will lay out here.

1: Initiative System was a "Top Down" mechanic. Which meant you were forced to build EVERY character for the highest initiative posssible - no exceptions, or you never did a single thing. Ever.
2: Combat system system and mechanics favored front loading of attacks along with dual wielding for the most effective damage output possible, which enabled combat to be finished by the as little as the 2nd character, negating the actions of the other 2-3 players entirely.
3: Vehicle movement. So no real change there :P
4: Rigging, Rigging combat. These were just bonkers! going from "why would anyone ever rig?" to "why would any ever NOT rig?!?" and back again through the editions.
5: Magic. I loved it. I hated it. I stilled played a mage while hitting myself in the face repeatedly with the rulebook...

So yea, Editions come and go, some of these problems got better as the mechanics got changed, some problems got worse. But 2 problems remained the same almost universally.
1: team disconnect.
2: The mini games.

The Team disconnect came from Riggers. At their hayday, a Rigger's only limitation was the range of the drone. People talk about "the Rigger in the van" Well, Fuck that! Why take an expensive vehicle to a run, that you know the shit is going to hit the fan, when you can safely send your drones in from the barrens. Let those neck-beard, lead farting, bullet sponges walk or bring their own transport!

Generally speaking what happened was the Rigger would set up at one spot, then the team would go in with a dummy vehicle, or if the Rigger was nice a remote droned vehicle (as the Rigger didn't need to be in the car to rig it!). The Rigger would then operate his drones from his original spot, thus never placing himself in direct danger.

This also created a time sink, as by the mechanics of the day, every drone on "AI" still required operator rolls every round, for each drone. This would lead to the Rigger spending large amounts of time rolling multiple dice for multiple drones, and generally slowed down game play to a crawl if the Rigger used more then 2 or 3 drones.

Given the mechanics of the game, and the way various elements came together, this made many players very resentful of Riggers... (and the arguments that would erupt over, "compensation" that would go on...)

2: The "Mini games", Or as put by the rules,  Decking, was a cluster-fuck. No two ways about it. While the idea was pretty cool, and more closely followed the engineering principles of an actual circuit, the actual practice of hacking is where it broke down. From the Decking side, to open the door to get the team into the facility sounds like a simple task. You jack in, you browse to the correct door file, edit file, jack out. Simple and done right? NOPE. To jack in required up to 4 tests. Then you had to scan the node (test), then you had to navigate to the next node (up to 4 tests), Scan the node (test), then move to the next node.... And so on and so until you got to the correct node, which could  be 3 to 30 node jumps away!!
And, while you were doing that, the Matrix was looking for you! (which required tests by the GM, and invoked counter tests by the Decker!). All said, on an easy designed system, that simple job of just opening the first door to start the run could take upwards of 20 table minutes to complete. 20 minutes that the rest of the team is standing there. Forget hacking the network to get the paydata, the GM and the Decker will do that an other time, as that could take up to 4 hours!

Something had to change.

With 4e, we saw a total revamp of the mechanics and foundation of SR. Other than the name, nothing stayed the same.
Target numbers were static, but the dice now changed. Dice pools of the first 3 editions where totally gone, replaced by Edge. (which was also a mechanic in 1 to 3e known as Good Karma - just more costly to use) Attributes were expanded with the inclusion of an additional mental stat, on top of Edge. The mechanics behind how everything worked was rewritten and reworked. Mostly for the better.

The 2 biggest changes however were to Rigging and Decking. So much so, Decking wasn't even a thing anymore. It was Hacking. And they introduced Technomancers......(Which was just slang for a Decker, before Decker got picked up! Don't get me started.) The elements that had made Rigging and Decking separate specializations had been reworked with the rules and formed into what was essentially one element. For better or worse.

However, by far, the most damaging change that I saw introduced was "Agents". From what I have seen and experienced, Agents killed BOTH archtypes in 4e. Thanks to the way they had designed the matrix for 4e, and then later introduced other elements, they allowed for the Agent to come in, and through exploits in the rules, subvert both archtypes. Very shortly after the introduction of Agent programs, Actual "Rigger" characters, and even "Hacker" Character became a thing of the past, as a simple Agent program could do the same job without the investment of karma into skills that a Rigger or Decker would need.

For fuck sakes, there posts on this very forum about Agent "Gun Drones" - NOT drones with guns.... but GUNs with Agent software in them and why they should be able to target and shoot people without an operator!

With the inclusion the of a buy for cash ready made hacker/rigger, they broke the matrix :( And don't get me started on the Technomancer problem. Because it really was a problem in 4e. And I really think that by the end, the writters realized they had opened Pandora's box....


And here we are now in 5e, with everything getting a reboot again. Some things got a huge change, some things got a minor change. And, of course, some things are still broken, and some people are still not happy.

But at least we have Samurai, Mages, adepts, deckers, technomancers and Riggers instead of Samurai, Mages, Adepts, technomancers and Agent programs.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Hobbes on <06-27-18/1738:07>
I certainly agree they made it impossible to be a Decker rigger at least out of starting resources,

You can build a Decker with a VCR, an RCC and an Army of Killer Robots.  Easy-Peasy.  Your stat array is a sad joke, and you're even more Matrix dependent than a Technomancer, but it's not hard.  A resources, B skills, C Stats, D Human, E Magic.  Level 1 VCR, Vulcan Liege-lord modded to add Sleaze, max logic, soft cap Intuition and Reaction, dump the rest, 5 Edge, whatever your favorite Logic boosts are.  (I go Cerebral boost 2 and Narco / Psyche to get Logic 10, YMMV).  If you can squeeze in Reaction Enhancers that's cool.  (Data Jacks, Antenna, Smartlink...yada,yada,yada).  Leaves you around 200K for your squad of killer Robots, and your Drone carrier. 

Anyway, you're a Rigger and your best skills are Computer, Hacking, and Electronic Warfare.  Because as it turns out you don't need other skills to be a Rigger, true story.  Toss some points into Pilot ground vehicle, automatics, sneak, hardware, software, Pilot Aircraft, maybe a single point in Pilot Walker.  Done. 
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Xenon on <06-27-18/1802:51>
Good example and even better tips at the end.

I love posts like this. Hope you don't mind if I pick it apart...?


At this point it would matter if the GM rules ...
The eyes, with all the vision enhancements such as camera, smartlink, low-light vision, etc..., is one single icon.


We will also say that the Sam is not wearing a ballistics mask, another icon or grouping of icons.
If you are looking specifically for the icon of eyes you will not randomly have to choose between a ballistic mask and the eyes. If your matrix perception test is successful you will spot the device icon of the eyes.


...unless the smart gun is an icon separate from the gun...
The firearm, with smartgun, ammo, camera, etc..., is one single icon.


Sammies deckers turn: He decided to play miracle shooter instead of helping the team by finding the decker and engaging in cybercombat...
Unless the enemy deckers cyberdeck is within 100 meters of sammies deckers cyberdeck and the enemy decker is not running silent - sammies decker will not automatically spot the persona icon of the enemy decker.


...against the the sam's intuition, because once again the decker didn't set the device up and the firewall and we will assume the the sam didn't buy a link that had a good firewall. So 3 dice?
The sam will oppose the test with Intuition + firewall of the device
(Maybe this is what you meant)


Then the eyes get to resist the damage with rating, not alpha
Was this clarified by someone somewhere...?

SR5 p. 421 Wireless Functionality
Unless otherwise specified in an item’s description, the general Device Rating can be found on the Device Ratings table.

Gear like data lock, RFID-tags, smart firing platform and various electronic accessories etc explicitly state that it "has a Device Rating equal to its Rating" or have a device rating listed in a table.

Cybereyes, does not.

According to the table on SR5 p. 421 alphaware have device rating of 3.


Sammies turn: Switch interface mode or device mode or what not
Switch Interface Mode is the Simple Action that you use to change between AR and VR.

A direct neural interface, or DNI, connects your brain to electronic devices (such as your camera on your smartgun). The sam doesn't need to take a special action to fire at his targets via the on-board camera of his smartgun as long as the smartgun is wireless enabled and working in concert with his DNI (or wireless disabled but connected directly via a cable to his cyberjack). Rather than taking the Blind Fire modifier of -6 dice a shooter with bricked eyes can fire their smartgun equipped weapon by looking through the on-board camera to see where it’s aimed by taking a -3 modifier (also useful if you for example want to fire at your targets from behind a corner).

If you want to broadcast the live video feed from the on-board camera of your smartgun to someone else you use the Send Message Simple Action.

It is a free action to turn off wireless in one single device. The action is called Linked device change mode Free Action and can be found on SR5 p. 163. According to SR5 p. 421 Turning It Off you may also spend a free action to turn off wireless in all your devices. One, All or Nothing. There does not seem to be a middle ground where you can choose a number of devices you want to turn off while keeping others on-line.

There is also a Complex Action called Reboot Device which could be useful if you want to clear your Persona from Marks or get rid of Garbage In/Garbage Out software changes from one device, such as your firearm.


2. Run Silent. If they are running silent then they will take a -2 which makes you harder to brick.
Running silent can in some situations actually appear suspicious and inspire an enemy decker (or a police patrol..... or patrol IC if you are a decker hacking into a host) to come looking for you (but yes, normally when you are actually on a job it is better to run silent or maybe even better to turn wireless off completely).

Unlike popular belief, running silent does not make you invisible or anything. Game mechanic wise silent running icons are actually not hard to see at all (if you set your filters looking for silent running icons it just take a single hit on a simple Matrix Perception test to see every single silent running icon in the vicinity - to see all of them at once is basically as obvious as noticing a neon sign or running crowd). No, the tricky part is to get a single silent running (or distant) device icon into "focus" so you can interact with it (or "spot" it as the book describe it). And even this is not very tricky as you normally only need one or two (or maybe three) hits to spot it anyway (when running silent your device normally only roll your Logic when opposing to be found). And two hits on a perception test is basically as obvious as a street sign....


3. have two grid subscriptions so you can...
An enemy decker can jump between grids without much trouble and technomancers can exist on all grids at once... Unless you are a Rigger or Decker it is almost always better to always always just use the Public Grid. This will almost always impose a negative dice pool modifier of [at least] 2 dice to an enemy decker. Deckers will often not be on the public grid due to the bad connection which mean they take 2 dice penalty for working across grids or they jump to the public grid but then they take 2 dice penalty for using the poor connection of the public grid.


4. Layer hidden icons puts the perceiver on a random chance to get the right one. The more the better.
This only really work if the observer doesn't have any idea at all of what he is looking for. If the observer knows what he is looking for then he will spot it directly with a single successful matrix perception test (even if the icon is running silent on the other side of the world behind layers and layers of hidden icons).


5. slave to a blue defender, it has a 7 firewall, this means with the above you are looking at a 12+ defense versus their 12 attack. I like those odds.
This is a really good advice (just note that due to the rather low device rating you can only slave a total of 9 devices to it and due to the super low data processing rating you basically cannot remote control your vehicle in any semi-dangerous situation at all). This commlink is also chargen legal even if you mod it for hot-sim.

Unless you start with a very tight economy another option would be the Transys Avalon which can be the master for up to 18 slaved devices, is chargen legal (unless you want it modded for hot-sim) and let you remote control your stuff just fine - but it cost 2k more and have one less firewall.


6. Make sure your decker actually cares about defending you instead of trying to brick stuff, as it is way to slow and they could be engaging in combat, suppressive firing down a group of guards, keeping other guards from knowing that you are here by setting off a jammer to cut communications, give teamwork bonuses through their leadership skill, throwing a flash bag, or anything that is much more effective when helping the team.
Agreed.

Bricking stuff is not very efficient at all.

There are better things for your decker to spend his actions on.


The way RAW is on spotting matrix icons...
If you have no idea what you are looking for (not even a single feature of the icon you are looking for) then you may for example still take a matrix perception test to see all silent running icons in the vicinity and then identify then one by one at random. However, this is probably not a very common scenario to be honest.

In most cases you know exactly which icon you are looking for. In the above case, for example, the enemy decker would just take an opposed test to spot "the cybereyes of the street sam".

You can also take an opposed test to directly spot a specific icon no matter how far away it is located.


SR5 p. 235 Matrix Perception Red Box
Here’s a list of some of the things Matrix Perception can tell you.
• If you know at least one feature of an icon running silent, you can spot the icon (Running Silent, below).


SR5 p. 234 Matrix Perception Spotting Table
Target is Outside 100 meters and is Running Silent: Opposed Computer + Intuition [Data Processing] v. Logic + Sleaze Test
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Redwulfe on <06-27-18/1914:45>
Good example and even better tips at the end.

I love posts like this. Hope you don't mind if I pick it apart...?

Anytime. :)

At this point it would matter if the GM rules ...
The eyes, with all the vision enhancements such as camera, smartlink, low-light vision, etc..., is one single icon.


We will also say that the Sam is not wearing a ballistics mask, another icon or grouping of icons.
If you are looking specifically for the icon of eyes you will not randomly have to choose between a ballistic mask and the eyes. If your matrix perception test is successful you will spot the device icon of the eyes.

It was my understanding you had to know a feature of the icon you wished to spot? I guess eyes would cover that but we always ruled it as if you look at the eyes area, basically narrowing the scoop of your icon search you would get all icons of devices in that area. So mask and eyes, or sunglasses and eyes and such.

...unless the smart gun is an icon separate from the gun...
The firearm, with smartgun, ammo, camera, etc..., is one single icon.
The eyes I could see, one control board one device icon but a gun with external smartgun or guncam or laser sight would seem to me to be multiple icons, correct?

Sammies deckers turn: He decided to play miracle shooter instead of helping the team by finding the decker and engaging in cybercombat...
Unless the enemy deckers cyberdeck is within 100 meters of sammies deckers cyberdeck and the enemy decker is not running silent - sammies decker will not automatically spot the persona icon of the enemy decker.
Correct. thanks for the clarification.

...against the the sam's intuition, because once again the decker didn't set the device up and the firewall and we will assume the the sam didn't buy a link that had a good firewall. So 3 dice?
The sam will oppose the test with Intuition + firewall of the device
(Maybe this is what you meant)
It was.

Then the eyes get to resist the damage with rating, not alpha
Was this clarified by someone somewhere...?

SR5 p. 421 Wireless Functionality
Unless otherwise specified in an item’s description, the general Device Rating can be found on the Device Ratings table.

Gear like data lock, RFID-tags, smart firing platform and various electronic accessories etc explicitly state that it "has a Device Rating equal to its Rating" or have a device rating listed in a table.

Cybereyes, does not.

According to the table on SR5 p. 421 alphaware have device rating of 3.

Yes, I was meaning the eyes where not alpha, so they would have a device rating 2 and the commlink was crap so it had a firewall 1 for a total of three dice. It slipped my mind you buy the rating when you buy cyber eyes rather than the basic cyberware rating of 2 by referring to the table. but now I am questioning that. :)

Sammies turn: Switch interface mode or device mode or what not
Switch Interface Mode is the Simple Action that you use to change between AR and VR.

A direct neural interface, or DNI, connects your brain to electronic devices (such as your camera on your smartgun). The sam doesn't need to take a special action to fire at his targets via the on-board camera of his smartgun as long as the smartgun is wireless enabled and working in concert with his DNI (or wireless disabled but connected directly via a cable to his cyberjack). Rather than taking the Blind Fire modifier of -6 dice a shooter with bricked eyes can fire their smartgun equipped weapon by looking through the on-board camera to see where it’s aimed by taking a -3 modifier (also useful if you for example want to fire at your targets from behind a corner).

If you want to broadcast the live video feed from the on-board camera of your smartgun to someone else you use the Send Message Simple Action.

It is a free action to turn off wireless in one single device. The action is called Linked device change mode Free Action and can be found on SR5 p. 163. According to SR5 p. 421 Turning It Off you may also spend a free action to turn off wireless in all your devices. One, All or Nothing. There does not seem to be a middle ground where you can choose a number of devices you want to turn off while keeping others on-line.

There is also a Complex Action called Reboot Device which could be useful if you want to clear your Persona from Marks or get rid of Garbage In/Garbage Out software changes from one device, such as your firearm.

Thank you for this I was not sure what action would be appropriate but I knew it would be less than a simple and was possible to do.

2. Run Silent. If they are running silent then they will take a -2 which makes you harder to brick.
Running silent can in some situations actually appear suspicious and inspire an enemy decker (or a police patrol..... or patrol IC if you are a decker hacking into a host) to come looking for you (but yes, normally when you are actually on a job it is better to run silent or maybe even better to turn wireless off completely).

Unlike popular belief, running silent does not make you invisible or anything. Game mechanic wise silent running icons are actually not hard to see at all (if you set your filters looking for silent running icons it just take a single hit on a simple Matrix Perception test to see every single silent running icon in the vicinity - to see all of them at once is basically as obvious as noticing a neon sign or running crowd). No, the tricky part is to get a single silent running (or distant) device icon into "focus" so you can interact with it (or "spot" it as the book describe it). And even this is not very tricky as you normally only need one or two (or maybe three) hits to spot it anyway (when running silent your device normally only roll your Logic when opposing to be found). And two hits on a perception test is basically as obvious as a street sign....

We always looked at it as if your commlink was running silent you could get into some trouble, but you could run other icons silent without problems.

We always looked at this similarly we just used the invisible analogy. Much like not broadcasting your SSID. An icon running silent was invisible, not listed in a wifi list, but you could ask on a perception test if there are any in a vicinity, basically turning your network adaptor to promiscuous mode. Then if you narrow the search, i.e. know a feature of a running icon like its location you could spot it and actually therefore see it. Curious if there was a bit of fluff or what not that supports either case. You seem to know the book better than myself, care to expound upon this for my knowledge?


3. have two grid subscriptions so you can...
An enemy decker can jump between grids without much trouble and technomancers can exist on all grids at once... Unless you are a Rigger or Decker it is almost always better to always always just use the Public Grid. This will almost always impose a negative dice pool modifier of [at least] 2 dice to an enemy decker. Deckers will often not be on the public grid due to the bad connection which mean they take 2 dice penalty for working across grids or they jump to the public grid but then they take 2 dice penalty for using the poor connection of the public grid.

Yes you are correct, I was looking at the fact that hopping grids will take them time and another perception test if that are not randomly on the same one as you or just take the -2. Any negative when trying to save a piece of gear from being bricked to me is a good thing. It doesn't make you full proof but it does delay them which gives your teams decker more time as well as you more time to geek their team or them.

4. Layer hidden icons puts the perceiver on a random chance to get the right one. The more the better.
This only really work if the observer doesn't have any idea at all of what he is looking for. If the observer knows what he is looking for then he will spot it directly with a single successful matrix perception test (even if the icon is running silent on the other side of the world behind layers and layers of hidden icons).


5. slave to a blue defender, it has a 7 firewall, this means with the above you are looking at a 12+ defense versus their 12 attack. I like those odds.
This is a really good advice (just note that due to the rather low device rating you can only slave a total of 9 devices to it and due to the super low data processing rating you basically cannot remote control your vehicle in any semi-dangerous situation at all). This commlink is also chargen legal even if you mod it for hot-sim.

Unless you start with a very tight economy another option would be the Transys Avalon which can be the master for up to 18 slaved devices, is chargen legal (unless you want it modded for hot-sim) and let you remote control your stuff just fine - but it cost 2k more and have one less firewall.


6. Make sure your decker actually cares about defending you instead of trying to brick stuff, as it is way to slow and they could be engaging in combat, suppressive firing down a group of guards, keeping other guards from knowing that you are here by setting off a jammer to cut communications, give teamwork bonuses through their leadership skill, throwing a flash bag, or anything that is much more effective when helping the team.
Agreed.

Bricking stuff is not very efficient at all.

There are better things for your decker to spend his actions on.


The way RAW is on spotting matrix icons...
If you have no idea what you are looking for (not even a single feature of the icon you are looking for) then you may for example still take a matrix perception test to see all silent running icons in the vicinity and then identify then one by one at random. However, this is probably not a very common scenario to be honest.

In most cases you know exactly which icon you are looking for. In the above case, for example, the enemy decker would just take an opposed test to spot "the cybereyes of the street sam".

You can also take an opposed test to directly spot a specific icon no matter how far away it is located.


SR5 p. 235 Matrix Perception Red Box
Here’s a list of some of the things Matrix Perception can tell you.
• If you know at least one feature of an icon running silent, you can spot the icon (Running Silent, below).


SR5 p. 234 Matrix Perception Spotting Table
Target is Outside 100 meters and is Running Silent: Opposed Computer + Intuition [Data Processing] v. Logic + Sleaze Test

I think this boils down to what you and your GM think is a feature. The more I think about it feature could be cybereyes as form dictates function and cyber eyes could be different than a pair of sunglasses.

The icon being invisible to me was just the way it seemed to read to me, but the example on page 254 seems to imply that you notice the icon running silent, like it wasn't invisible. Any more solid evidence of this?

This would also depend on whether these icons are invisable and you
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on <06-28-18/2021:15>
I certainly agree they made it impossible to be a Decker rigger at least out of starting resources,

I'm not sure what you mean.  It is very easy to make a Decker / Rigger in 5e.

All you have to do is take your Decker...
And you're done.

"Wha-wha-wha-WHHAAAAATTT?!??!???"

That is all you need.

5e took the red-haired stepchild, the Rigger, and pissed all over it.  The only thing a Rigger can do that a Decker can't is Jump In to a vehicle/drone.


Once you got a Datajack, you are as good as any Rigger* - minus Jumping In, and the benefits that go with that.

*Obviously there will be some discrepancies depending on Attribute and Skill selection, but no additional gear is required to fill the Rigger role.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <06-28-18/2023:16>
Valid point, for the most part. 

A VCR is kind of a big deal to making Drones relevant though.  You'll blow way more money in autosofts than a VCR to make your drones be worth a damn while not being jumped in, plus you get the VCR bonuses...
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Marcus on <06-28-18/2054:38>
You guys may have variants of decker/rigger that you think work for 5th, but I haven't seen I'd be willing to play thus far.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Hobbes on <06-29-18/1918:47>
You guys may have variants of decker/rigger that you think work for 5th, but I haven't seen I'd be willing to play thus far.

Well, yeah.  Because "Rigger" should be a bad ass wheelman.  As it turns out, you can't do that in 5th edition.  You need Agility, Reaction, Intuition, and Logic.  17 Stat points right there.  May want to have more than 1's in Str, Char, Body, Will.... So, that's an A or B in Attributes.  And then you need two totally different sets of skills.  Gunnery and then a Gun Skill.  Standard Runner Skills.  Driving and some Build/Repair stuff.  Oh, and if you aren't a decent hacker you'll be pwn'd the second the GM brings any kind of Matrix security.  Skills B is barely adequate.  Resources, again, at least a B to get the RCC, VCR, and a Vehicle and all the trimmings. 

Once you've convinced your GM to let you use Sumto10.  You then need to convince your GM to let you do something with your Bad Ass ride more than just driving the team around, Pink Mohawk style please.

Or you just make a Decker with a Drone Swarm.  Easy and done. 
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Marcus on <06-29-18/2103:53>
Well, yeah.  Because "Rigger" should be a bad ass wheelman. 
^^^^ This.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: kainite311 on <06-29-18/2347:17>
So I see a lot of comments going back and forth on how easy/hard it is to spot the correct gun/cyberware/whatever icon that is running silent (and how random/not random with 'filters'). So I am going to propose a direct question about locating hidden icons.

If you are looking at someone in AR, and clearly see they have cybereyes and a gun in hand, but no matrix icons representing them (which leads you to conclude they are running silent), can't you simply do your matrix perception check to specifically look for the silent running items (either gun or eyes) based on where the icon should be in physical AR space and not worry about other 'random' running silent objects? Take it further using image link from the team street sammy while your hiding around the corner, since you know the actual physical location of the item your looking for via the image link... or a better variation of what I am trying to get at (knowing where to look, as with meat vision perception check, which I believe gives a bonus to boot)
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <06-30-18/0025:34>
Spotting hidden icons is unplayable as pure RAW.  The GM simply has to throw hackers a bone, perhaps in the way you're asking about.

See also the I.C.U. quality in Data Trails.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: kainite311 on <06-30-18/0044:08>
I guess I always read that  quality to mean you just got a +2 bonus, you still have the basic ability to spot the hidden icons. Or am I missing something here on RAW when making a matrix perception check knowing exactly where to look, and exactly what to look for?

And I guess barring that, then maybe just apply some common sense, otherwise the bag of tags running silent anti-hack trick shenanigans becomes the standard operating mode for any team...
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Redwulfe on <06-30-18/0152:39>
Yes, to go strait to the spot icon test you only need, "is have some idea that a hidden icon is out there." one way to do this is to do a matrix perception to see if any icons are running silent in your vicinity, but this is when you get into the other problems, i.e. random and features.

In the book every device has a Icon. for eyes all of the devices are built into the eye so it makes since that it is one icon but not the glasses and the eyes. Same with a gun the internal smartgun and gun would have the same icon as they are built into each other but I don't think the laser sight and gun would or the external smartgun link and gun would.

These icons can run silent which makes them hidden to being automatically spotted within 100 meters of you. You can view this as they are invisible or that they are overlooked or whatnot. The fact of the matter is they aren't readily spotted. And since it requires a hit on a matrix test or clue that they are in the vicinity you can not see/notice them for some reason. I choose invisible because that is easy for players to understand. In the game they are said to be hidden.

The book says if you know a feature of an icon you can try and spot it, otherwise you must try to spot a random Icon amongst the multiple icons that may be running silent in the vicinity. This is where I don't agree with just being able to say "I am hacking his eyes." One, I don't think saying I want to hack his eyes is "knowing a feature of the icon", you know a feature of the device though. I do think that term "feature of an icon" could be interpreted in several ways. I do not think other people are wrong for interpreting it another way I just don't agree with that myself.

To me a feature  of the icon could be its location or a feature of its form as per the form dictates function concept in matrix architecture. I usually allow players to give me the general category but they still won't know its exact features unless they have done something to gain that knowledge in their legwork or such. To me both cybereyes and glasses could have the same form in the matrix their features would be where they are generally located on the body. I allow the vicinity on question to be narrowed to a smaller area than 100 meters to help in searching, this is why the icons location can be used but since both glass and cyber eyes would still be int he same vicinity the decker trying to spot the hidden Icon could be put on a random allocation to which icon they actually spot. This is what I call layering icons. it is used to fool a narrowed search vicinity. Remember narrowing the search vicinity is something I do and not in the book. Your vicinity is 100 meters always according to RAW.

You can also use an actual feature of their icon like that it is literally an eye or pair of glasses. Maybe your persona has a monocle and that is what his cyber eyes look like, so a feature would be the chain or something that can help the decker tune into noticing or spotting the icon like it should be his eyes. I honestly believe this is up to your GM to defines since I don't think it has been clarified.

And I know this sounds hard on the decker but I have deckers listen to my verbal cues all the time and guess features of icons they never saw. Just the other day I was describing an old farmstead as the sculpting of a host with a fence and a gate that lead into the main area in front of the farm house and the decker said "I need to find the cameras are their any birds on the fence?" Well that just happened to be the exact sculpting of the camera, so he knew a feature and I gave him the spot roll for them. but I would not have let him say I am looking for the cameras and get the roll as that is the device he is looking for not the icon. he also took the cue of the gate and realized that this correlated tot he guard sack and new to look for the lock on the gate to find the hidden maglock on the gatehouse. Deckers in my games have also named features that belonged to the wrong hidden icons but that was part of the fun.

If eyes or cameras were features of the icon then their wouldn't be any reason to have a random assignment for the spot test when it came to icons that where close together since you would always know a feature to focus in on, that being the name of the device. But Icons don't always look like the device so why would the physical device other than knowing where it was at, help you spot the icon? This makes since to me, so this is what I use. it also keeps one of the things that I loved about the matrix alive and that was the creativity of designing your iconography and the iconography of the host. Just naming the device means that the iconography is not even needed anymore and I say bully to that.

In any case spotting take a complex action and then starting the hack, unless you go strait for the brick takes a complex action and all off these complex action being used is why bricking is not as efficient as one might think. More than likely it will take multiple attempts to successfully brick a device if it is properly defended and by that time a free action shuts your decker down.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Xenon on <06-30-18/0543:02>
You need Agility, Reaction, Intuition, and Logic.
Why do you need to max out Agility and Intuition?


Oh, and if you aren't a decent hacker you'll be pwn'd the second the GM brings any kind of Matrix security. 
A Wheelman without a drone swarm is a lot less vulnerable to matrix attacks.


to get the RCC
A Wheelman without a drone swarm have little to no use for a RCC.

Just go for a commlink with a decent Data Processing and Firewall rating.

That way you can also get a sim-module modded for hot-sim so you can use hot-sim VR and hot-sim Jump In (as-written the control Rig only come with a sim-module that is not modded for hot-sim and the RCC doesn't come with a sim-module at all).


If you are looking at someone in AR, and clearly see they have cybereyes and a gun in hand, but no matrix icons representing them (which leads you to conclude they are running silent), can't you simply do your matrix perception check to specifically look for the silent running items
"the first thing you need to do is have some idea that a hidden icon is out there". The scenario you describe is more than enough to qualify for this.

If you have an idea of what icon you are looking for then you just take the test to locate it. This is also not limited to just 100 meter range. You can spot hidden icons anywhere in the matrix as long as you know at least one feature of the icons you are looking for.

Randomly searching for icons in your vicinity is just one thing you may do when you have no idea at all if there might or might not be any silent running icons in the vicinity.


Spotting hidden icons is unplayable as pure RAW. 
I think you are too hung up on the scenario the book describe when you have no idea if there are any hidden icons out there and you have no idea of what icons you are looking for.

"the first thing you need to do is have some idea that a hidden icon is out there." = If you already have some idea that a hidden icon is out there then you can stop there.

"You can do this with a hit from a Matrix Perception Test; asking if there are icons running silent in the vicinity" = If you have no idea that any hidden icons is out there then ONE way you can find out (there might or might not be OTHER ways you can also do it) is by looking for all silent running icons in the vicinity (to see all of them you only need a single hit which basically make them as obvious as spotting a neon sign or a running crowd with normal perception).

If you have no idea what you are looking for then you need to pick randomly by all the silent running icons around you. If you know at least one feature of the icon you no longer need to pick the icons at random. The more explicit information you have of the icon you are looking for the easier it will be to pin point.

It is like googling. If you don't know even a single feature of what you are looking for then you would get every single internet page and you get to pick them at random (but if you don't know anything about the icon you are looking for in the matrix you may want to at least narrow down the search to just icons that are in your vicinity). But normally you know at least one feature of what you are looking for and can use that to narrow down the search criteria. The more explicit information you have the easier it is to find the correct page you are looking for.

"Lucky for you, the Matrix is very helpful in finding things for you."


...otherwise the bag of tags running silent anti-hack trick shenanigans becomes the standard operating mode for any team...
Don't worry. It doesn't work that way.
Also, Data Trails even explicitly clarified that this doesn't work.


In the book every device has a Icon. for eyes all of the devices are built into the eye so it makes since that it is one icon but not the glasses and the eyes.
If you are explicitly looking for the device icon of the "eyes" then you would not randomly pick between the device icon of his trodes, glasses, ballistic mask and eyes.....

You would just take a perception test to notice the eyes.
No need to over-complicate things for no reason.


Same with a gun the internal smartgun and gun would have the same icon as they are built into each other but I don't think the laser sight and gun would or the external smartgun link and gun would.
Pretty sure that the smartgun (no matter if it have an external smartgun system or internal smartgun system) is just one icon. If you get 3 marks on the smartgun icon then you can use Garbage In/Garbage Out to reprogram it so that when the trigger is pulled (either mechanically or via DNI) you can make the magazine eject instead.

Same as I am pretty sure that a vehicle (no matter if it have sensors, a steering wheel, gear box, engine, window elevators etc etc) also count as one single icon. Or that if you get a mark on a drone you can also control its weapon mount.

Again, keep it simple and don't over complicate things for no reason.


These icons can run silent which makes them hidden to being automatically spotted within 100 meters of you.
Same as any icon beyond 100 meters of you (silent or not) is also not being automatically spotted.

You need to spend an observe in detail action to "focus" on a device icon before you can interact with it. Once you done this you can interact with it at any time without another observe in detail action. Even if the device is moved to the other side of the world or start to run silent. Doesn't matter. Once you have the icon in "focus" it will remain there until you log out or the device is rebooted (or its owner successfully bend the rules of the matrix to hide the icon from you).



I choose invisible because that is easy for players to understand. In the game they are said to be hidden.
I would be careful about using the word Invisible. Remember that it only take a single hit on a matrix perception test to see every single silent running icon in the vicinity. It take 1 single hit on a matrix perception test to "spot" an icon no matter where in the world it is located (they are very obvious). To "spot" a silent running icon you might need 2 hits (maybe 3), they are slightly harder to interact with due to the limited communication to the matrix, but they are hardly "Invisible".


The book says if you know a feature of an icon you can try and spot it, otherwise you must try to spot a random Icon amongst the multiple icons that may be running silent in the vicinity. This is where I don't agree with just being able to say "I am hacking his eyes." One, I don't think saying I want to hack his eyes is "knowing a feature of the icon", you know a feature of the device though. I do think that term "feature of an icon" could be interpreted in several ways. I do not think other people are wrong for interpreting it another way I just don't agree with that myself.
There is an example on p. 271 where Spike know that the Riggers RCC and and the rotordrone are running silent within 100 meters. This information alone is enough to take a matrix perception test to spot them directly without randomly looking through every single silent running icon in the vicinity. Just keep it simple and don't try to over complicate things.


To me both cybereyes and glasses could have the same form in the matrix...
Cybereyes is a cybernetic augmentation while glasses is an imaging device. Why would you assume they have identical icons and features within the matrix...?


This is what I call layering icons.
I don't think laying icons is a "thing" to be honest.


But Icons don't always look like the device so why would the physical device other than knowing where it was at, help you spot the icon?
Because: "Lucky for you, the Matrix is very helpful in finding things for you."]

Device icons still have to follow matrix protocol (unless the owner is running the restricted wrapper cyberprogram). As long as it is following matrix protocol you always instinctively know what type of device the icon represent. And wrapper doesn't fool matrix perception, so if you are specifically looking for the icon you will still spot it even if it have a representation that goes against the matrix protocol and if you are successfully looking at a wrapped icon you may also see what it really is.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: kainite311 on <06-30-18/1129:37>

Quote
...otherwise the bag of tags running silent anti-hack trick shenanigans becomes the standard operating mode for any team...
Don't worry. It doesn't work that way.


Could you point me to the page or section? I seem to be unable to locate it last few times I re-read that book :( Thank you
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on <06-30-18/1214:53>
You'll blow way more money in autosofts than a VCR to make your drones be worth a damn while not being jumped in, plus you get the VCR bonuses...

You post that as if you feel the Rigger doesn't have to blow a whole ton of Nuyen on the same thing.  Here is a little hint for you; "Jumping In to a drone in any truly relevant way should be a rare occurrence.  If it isn't, the the GM is taking pity on the poor player who chose a Rigger."  Why?  The painful Noise rules.  (A drones Device Rating is equal to it's Pilot rating.  Most drones can't be piloted remotely in a Metroplex Downtown area.)  Sure, an RCC can help with that, but the more you have to use the Noise Reduction of the RCC, the less Autosofts you can share.  Combine that with 99.9% of all Autosofts being Model Specific, and a Rigger is screwed just as hard with trying to keep a drone relevant.

Well, yeah.  Because "Rigger" should be a bad ass wheelman. 
^^^^ This.

Was that possible in 4th?  Because in 1-3, a Wired Street Sam with a driving skill was just as good a wheelman as a Rigger, and the Sam was much more useful in combat.

In fact, the whole idea of a Drone Swarm was introduced late in 3rd to give Riggers something no one else could do.  And then 5e gave that to the Decker as well.

You need Agility, Reaction, Intuition, and Logic.
Why do you need to max out Agility and Intuition?

Easy.  Combat relevance.  Remember, Hobbes is referring to a non-swarm Rigger who has to pray the GM will throw a driving bone to once in a while and will be spending the vast majority of their time acting as a poor man's Sammie.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Hobbes on <06-30-18/1219:38>
You need Agility, Reaction, Intuition, and Logic.
Why do you need to max out Agility and Intuition?


Oh, and if you aren't a decent hacker you'll be pwn'd the second the GM brings any kind of Matrix security. 
A Wheelman without a drone swarm is a lot less vulnerable to matrix attacks.


to get the RCC
A Wheelman without a drone swarm have little to no use for a RCC.

Just go for a commlink with a decent Data Processing and Firewall rating.

That way you can also get a sim-module modded for hot-sim so you can use hot-sim VR and hot-sim Jump In (as-written the control Rig only come with a sim-module that is not modded for hot-sim and the RCC doesn't come with a sim-module at all).


In Order:  Agility because sometimes you use Agility with your Gunnery, sometimes you use Logic.  Intuition; Perception, Matrix Perception, Initiative, Defense tests.  Riggers are frequently used as recon specialists, and then all the other normal reasons a Shadowrunner wants a high Intuition. 

Wheelman without a Drone Swarm?  Riggers without Drones is a silly thing.  You can't drive your Car/Van/whatever into a building most of the time, you're going to want a Drone or a Swarm of Drones so you can actually play Shadowrun instead of Uber Driver.  You've got a character that is heavily invested in VCR and RCCs and such, you'll want to use them.  Building a Samurai with a bad ass vehicle isn't a Rigger, and is easier said than done as you need Logic and Gunnery in addition to the basic Samurai all meat package.  I've found the comprises unsatisfactory, but YMMV and all. 

 
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Hobbes on <06-30-18/1222:34>
Was that possible in 4th?  Because in 1-3, a Wired Street Sam with a driving skill was just as good a wheelman as a Rigger, and the Sam was much more useful in combat.


Can't tell you about 4th, but earlier editions VCRs gave meat space initiative bonuses.  And used mostly meat space stats IIRC.  It was a simpler time.  We had wires and we liked it!
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Redwulfe on <06-30-18/1241:26>
I moved my responses to Xenon to another topic as I don't feel that it is on topic for here any more. you can find them here. https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=27648.0
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <06-30-18/1241:54>
You'll blow way more money in autosofts than a VCR to make your drones be worth a damn while not being jumped in, plus you get the VCR bonuses...

You post that as if you feel the Rigger doesn't have to blow a whole ton of Nuyen on the same thing.  Here is a little hint for you; "Jumping In to a drone in any truly relevant way should be a rare occurrence.  If it isn't, the the GM is taking pity on the poor player who chose a Rigger."  Why?  The painful Noise rules.  (A drones Device Rating is equal to it's Pilot rating.  Most drones can't be piloted remotely in a Metroplex Downtown area.)  Sure, an RCC can help with that, but the more you have to use the Noise Reduction of the RCC, the less Autosofts you can share.  Combine that with 99.9% of all Autosofts being Model Specific, and a Rigger is screwed just as hard with trying to keep a drone relevant.

A couple of things to unpack there.

First of all, you use the RCC for the noise reduction rather than sharing autosofts (Opinion rather than fact). Furthermore, Noise is funny in that you don't consider both ends of the communication; only the noise affecting the character's location matters*.  So, awkwardly, a drone isn't affected by local noise- only the noise and static the Rigger is in.  The only Noise that indirectly affects the Drone is distance based noise.

*=admittedly this isn't clear in SR5 and is a clarification made somewhere on the forums here.  I'll link it when I find it.

Second: Jumping in vs Dog Brain.  The biggest advantage to being a Rigger is the ability to throw more than one "pet" into the scenario.  But you can only be jumped in to one thing at a time.  If you want to put 3 Rotodrones overhead to lay down the Death from Above on your enemies, you can only be jumped into one of them.  The other two are literally useless without appropriate autosofts to use the onboard weapons, and you probably also want to shell out even more nuyen for autosofts that allow the drones to detect/track targets and to at least attempt to dodge incoming fire.    You probably want the autosofts running locally on the drones, just in case a hacker is able to jack your connection to your drones even if you're not using the inherent NR on your RCC. 

That adds up, and my earlier point was several (especially many autosofts cost more than a basic VCR does.  So if a Decker wants to control drones, a VCR not only gives mechanical bonuses it also potentially renders moot the need for expensive autosofts, so long as the Decker only needs to put one drone at a time into a scene.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on <06-30-18/1259:17>
Was that possible in 4th?  Because in 1-3, a Wired Street Sam with a driving skill was just as good a wheelman as a Rigger, and the Sam was much more useful in combat.


Can't tell you about 4th, but earlier editions VCRs gave meat space initiative bonuses.  And used mostly meat space stats IIRC.  It was a simpler time.  We had wires and we liked it!

Prior to 4th (which I don't know enough about to comment on), VCR gave Initiative bonuses ONLY while controlling a vehicle / device.  The exact same bonuses a Sam could get with Wired Reflexes, plus those were useful in combat.

The VCR also added a small dice pool modifier to driving tests, but given the Unicorn-esque call for driving tests it wasn't enough to make up for gimping your character by taking VCR and not Wired Reflexes.

So if a Decker wants to control drones, a VCR not only gives mechanical bonuses it also potentially renders moot the need for expensive autosofts, so long as the Decker only needs to put one drone at a time into a scene.

If you are only talking putting a single drone on a scene, then the Player is better served making another character that can do combat because the presence of a meat body will always be superior to a drone, and can be much less Nuyen intensive.
Single vehicle / drone play isn't worthwhile enough to have the Rigger even exist.  Vehicle rules are rarely used, if ever, and as mentioned in the previous paragraph meat body is more useful than drone.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Marcus on <06-30-18/1335:46>
Can't tell you about 4th, but earlier editions VCRs gave meat space initiative bonuses.  And used mostly meat space stats IIRC.  It was a simpler time.  We had wires and we liked it!
^^^^^^^ This!!

Your driving the d@mn car in Seattle not in the F&*^ Matrix. I don't care how easy the matrix init thing is, meat space init is better.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <06-30-18/1348:02>
Can't tell you about 4th, but earlier editions VCRs gave meat space initiative bonuses.  And used mostly meat space stats IIRC.  It was a simpler time.  We had wires and we liked it!
^^^^^^^ This!!

Your driving the d@mn car in Seattle not in the F&*^ Matrix. How don't care how easy the matrix init thing is, meat space init is better.

To be fair, if you're making use of Jumping In you're automatically in VR.  So I can see a reason why the VCR only gives bonuses in the Matrix.  I kind of prefer the lower costs (nuyen and essence) for VCRs in this edition relative to previous ones since they do nothing in meatspace... it gives more room for the Rigger to work with.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Marcus on <06-30-18/1356:46>
To be fair, if you're making use of Jumping In you're automatically in VR.
To me this is the heart of the problem.



So I can see a reason why the VCR only gives bonuses in the Matrix.  I kind of prefer the lower costs (nuyen and essence) for VCRs in this edition relative to previous ones since they do nothing in meatspace... it gives more room for the Rigger to work with.

I think making the VCR as an add on to wired reflexes could work, but I don't like the matrix thing.
To me making the VCR insignificant has seriously hindered the development of Riggers.

Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <06-30-18/1403:19>
To be fair, if you're making use of Jumping In you're automatically in VR.
To me this is the heart of the problem.

It does raise all sorts of troubling questions about how exactly does one ride and rig a motorcycle at the same time.  My headcanon is you have magnets sewn into your riding leathers and helmet and you just *stick* to the bike after you go slump.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Reaver on <06-30-18/1412:29>
To be fair, if you're making use of Jumping In you're automatically in VR.
To me this is the heart of the problem.

It does raise all sorts of troubling questions about how exactly does one ride and rig a motorcycle at the same time.  My headcanon is you have magnets sewn into your riding leathers and helmet and you just *stick* to the bike after you go slump.


The Webber field in the magnets to hold you to the bike, assuming you are of normal adult height and weight and not a Metatype, would be so strong that they could potentially mess with the electronics....


It would have to be something else...... what that is, I have no idea.

(I too have wondered how you rig a bike and stay on :D)
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Marcus on <06-30-18/1417:35>
To be fair, if you're making use of Jumping In you're automatically in VR.
To me this is the heart of the problem.

It does raise all sorts of troubling questions about how exactly does one ride and rig a motorcycle at the same time.  My headcanon is you have magnets sewn into your riding leathers and helmet and you just *stick* to the bike after you go slump.

Yeah the whole thing messes with my image of Riggers. I don't have anything against drone riggers, but to me Riggers are the BA Wheel-man. Able to leave knight errant in their dust, while blasting low-rider. See ever the Original gone in 60 seconds, Every episode of duke of hazard, and Transporter for more details. NPCs like Turbo Bunny etc.

Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on <06-30-18/1429:30>
To be fair, if you're making use of Jumping In you're automatically in VR.
To me this is the heart of the problem.

It does raise all sorts of troubling questions about how exactly does one ride and rig a motorcycle at the same time.  My headcanon is you have magnets sewn into your riding leathers and helmet and you just *stick* to the bike after you go slump.

As long as you are being fair, might as well admit this was a suspension of reality problem that was often hand-waived away ever since the invention of Riggers.  Even pre-VR, rigging left the meat body practically comatose.  It was always handled similarly to diving into the Matrix, or Astrally Projecting.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <06-30-18/2025:31>
To be fair, if you're making use of Jumping In you're automatically in VR.
To me this is the heart of the problem.

It does raise all sorts of troubling questions about how exactly does one ride and rig a motorcycle at the same time.  My headcanon is you have magnets sewn into your riding leathers and helmet and you just *stick* to the bike after you go slump.

As long as you are being fair, might as well admit this was a suspension of reality problem that was often hand-waived away ever since the invention of Riggers.  Even pre-VR, rigging left the meat body practically comatose.  It was always handled similarly to diving into the Matrix, or Astrally Projecting.

Eh, back in 1st edition you could be rigging a motorcycle while still participating in the physical demands of Urban Brawl and Combat Biker :)
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Marcus on <06-30-18/2140:54>
As I already said I think the easy solution is to just make VCR into an add on to wire reflexes. This gives you physical intiative, and lets the rigger function in normal space.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on <06-30-18/2240:10>
Eh, back in 1st edition you could be rigging a motorcycle while still participating in the physical demands of Urban Brawl and Combat Biker :)

You got me on an Edition I never played, so I had to dig up a copy and look for myself.
In 1st Edition the VCR was just Wired Reflexes that ONLY worked while cybernetically piloting a vehicle.  So...  A gimped Sammie.
You are right though, there was no mention that I could find of the body going limp.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Hobbes on <07-01-18/1057:50>


It does raise all sorts of troubling questions about how exactly does one ride and rig a motorcycle at the same time.  My headcanon is you have magnets sewn into your riding leathers and helmet and you just *stick* to the bike after you go slump.

Rigger Cocoon.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Rymdkejsaren on <07-02-18/0402:40>
Just out of curiosity: Is this kind of complete derailment of topics normal here?
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Xenon on <07-02-18/0605:30>
I think that your question was asked and answered pages ago, no...?
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Michael Chandra on <07-02-18/1004:31>
Just out of curiosity: Is this kind of complete derailment of topics normal here?
If the original subject has been answered but related subjects of debate came up, why not?
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Mirikon on <07-02-18/1213:26>
Just out of curiosity: Is this kind of complete derailment of topics normal here?
So long as the original question has been answered, and no one is getting disrespectful, then yes.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on <07-06-18/1740:05>
Furthermore, Noise is funny in that you don't consider both ends of the communication; only the noise affecting the character's location matters*.  So, awkwardly, a drone isn't affected by local noise- only the noise and static the Rigger is in.  The only Noise that indirectly affects the Drone is distance based noise.

*=admittedly this isn't clear in SR5 and is a clarification made somewhere on the forums here.  I'll link it when I find it.

Still waiting on this.

I want to know if it amounts to basically a house rule to take pity on the poor Rigger player, or if it is a B.S. Official Clarification that further proves that no one deserves to spend money on 5th and how much we really need 6th edition right now.

I mean really.  A Rigger can sit in a Noise 0 space and fly a drone into a Noise "over 9000!?!?!???" without any issue?  Or into a Matrix dead zone?

That would be almost as silly as all Noise is dropped when a Decker enters a Host.  At least there you could make the argument that the Host hardware takes over the Tx/Rx and that reduces (but eliminates?) the Noise...
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <07-06-18/1804:40>
Sorry been away from the forum for a bit.

With regards to does situational noise apply to both sides (https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=27038.msg495716#msg495716) turns out we don't have an official answer.  Best thing we do have is the nonofficial opinion of the errata lead in that it probably shouldn't.

With regards to a Rigger, I suppose one might reasonably infer the rules regarding noise and wireless functionality (SR5 pg 421) might be the way to allow one to use a Jammer to force a Rigger out of a drone.  If a Drone is in a high spam area, rather than imposing an incremental die pool penalty I'd say the way it probably works (or ought to work, depending on one's POV on the rules) is yes the drone's situational noise doesn't impart a die pool penalty on the rigger, but the binary "it works perfectly or it doesn't work at all" wireless function of a Drone could potentially be shut down by noise local to the drone.  But only spam/static/jamming and never distance.  There's no reasonable way you should be counting distance twice. (rigger to the drone is once, no reason to count drone to rigger on top of that)
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Sphinx on <07-06-18/1837:05>
Common sense rule: For any wireless connection between devices (e.g., a drone and an RCC), calculate the Noise level at each end and use whichever one is highest, plus modifiers for distance, minus Noise reduction.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Mirikon on <07-06-18/2011:48>
See, this is why I liked the Signal rules in 4th. It was nice and simple that way. Are you in Signal range of the device? Then you can send to it. Device is in signal range of you? It can send to you. Mutual signal range? You've got two-way comms! Bunch of AR spam? -X penalty on actions while in AR. Same in VR? -X penalty while in VR on that node. Jammer? Reduce the Signal of devices inside the area, then see above. Linking a whole bunch of devices to daisy-chain connectivity for low-signal devices? Great, but each node you pass through is an additional chance for someone to sniff out what you're doing. Hacking an Aztechnology company? Get a small hack in on a Renraku building first so your traffic goes through there, and that way if things go bad then if the Azzies don't splatter your brains with Black IC, they at least have to hack Renraku to find you, which will cause all kinds of problems and give you a little extra time to wake up and get out.

I'm really hoping 6E fixes all this shit.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on <07-06-18/2034:14>
Common sense rule: For any wireless connection between devices (e.g., a drone and an RCC), calculate the Noise level at each end and use whichever one is highest, plus modifiers for distance, minus Noise reduction.

Not bad for "Fast and Loose," although as Mirikon alluded to it doesn't work in some cases.

Such as Jammers.  If the controller is at Point A, and has 4 Noise there, and the target/drone/whatever is in a Noise 1 Point B - what happens when someone activates a Jammer and adds 2 Noise to the whatever at Point B?  Nothing, since it is only Noise 3?

I'll give you that it may very well be an edge, or corner case.  It still illustrates how bad the wireless rules mesh with the overall system.

Without scrapping the Wireless rules altogether (might not be the worst idea), the best I can come up with is to take a page out of D&D 3.5 / Pathfinder.  Each Noise modifier has a type.  Same type modifiers don't stack, you use the largest.  Spam, Distance, Static for Jammers and Dead Zones, etc.  Some special cases - such as the anti-wireless wall paper in the thread SSDR linked to - would be "Untyped," and those do stack.

Still not great.  Complicates it some more, maybe needlessly.  And it still doesn't resolve the issue of Distance playing any part of Matrix tasks, when Hosts (usually) don't have a physical location to judge Distance to.

It is messy.  I feel it is unnecessarily messy, and I don't have any real say over it.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <07-06-18/2107:15>
Well imo the problem is more with the Jamming rules than the Noise rules.  Granted they're closely related, but I feel the jamming rules not allowing the Electronics Warfare skill to increase the jamming power nor the ability to buy a Jammer with a rating higher than 6 pretty well puts a hard ceiling on what you can do with jamming anyway... a ceiling located below many pieces of gear (to include the humble DR6 Transys Avalon commlink that every shadowrunner should probably own after their first run, if not right out of chargen...)
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Bamce on <07-07-18/1911:13>
Quote

But I also like a modicum of believability, and if I can't sell it to myself, I know I won't sell it to my players.



But trolls, magic, megacorps, people taking assault cannon rounds, that all is fine right.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Reaver on <07-07-18/2028:17>
I'm seeong a lot of outliner cases here....

First off, lets talk about jammers,  their place, and their consequences.
Jammers jam. (No shit!!) And they do it to EVERY SINGLE signal in their range.
Every SINGLE signal from the print machine all the way up to traffic lights. From security cameras, all the way to pace makers.....

They are nasty, evil devices that in a wireless world can cause extreme havoc. As such there are going to be used with extreme descression and placement. Throwing out jammers left and right wouldn't be done by anyone as that jammer also messes with THEIR abilities as well.

You are more likely to find jammers used to define an area, such as a high security lab or building - in which case the security will have accounted for said jamming in their plans and deployment.

Second, noise is mostly there so you don't end up with 'split party' syndrome, which can get very toxic in games as lethal as SR. Heck, back in 2e most people refused to play with people who insisted on playing riggers due to the feeling thst the rigger could always cut and run if things got bad, stranding the other players...

Noise is an atrempt to fix this.... but yes it does need refining.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Xenon on <07-08-18/1035:36>
Noise = slight latency which make some time sensitive actions (such as remote controlling and hacking) much harder to perform. Playing a competitive FPS game with a 300ms ping would be terrible (but you could probably send text through Messenger without any issues at all).

SR5 p. 230 Noise
It may seem as if traffic in the Matrix is instantaneous, but ask anyone who has played an online game with someone a few continents away—there is a noticeable delay compared to playing someone next door. When decisions are being made in the blink of an eye, every speed difference matters. The farther you are away from an icon in real life, the harder it is to communicate with it, whether your intentions are harmful or benign.


A decker running signal scrub and a wireless data jack is walking around in the middle of a carnival while AR hacking a camera located in the city downtown, 5km away, would suffer a negative dice pool modifier of 4 dice to his hack on the fly attempt due to noise (3 points from distance and 3 points from spam zones minus 3 points from noise reduction).

A rigger and his RCC running 3 points of noise reduction + satellite link on the north pole (where you normally can't get a signal at all) remote controlling one of his drones located in the rural outskirts of Paris (4580km away) would suffer a negative dice pool modifier of 7 dice on his gunnery or piloting test due to noise (5 points from static zone plus 5 points due to distance while using low orbit satellite communication minus 3 points from noise reduction).

A street samurai with his wireless data jack standing outside in heavy rain trying to take a sensor test with a drone he sent into an office building running rating 3 wireless negating wallpaper 800m away would suffer a negative dice pool modifier of 6 dice due to noise (3 points of static zone plus 3 points from wallpaper plus 1 point from distance minus 1 points of noise reduction).
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Mirikon on <07-08-18/1123:19>
Reaver, Jammers are only a problem to people that rely on their devices. Gangers wouldn't have much to lose from them, and it would delay the cops coming. High end teams have the skills that they don't need the wireless bonus. Jammers only inconvenience the techies, the civies, and those runners who don't have the skill to compensate.

But you are correct that they jam everything in their radius, which means unless it is contained then you've sent up a signal flare that something's going down. Unless you're in the kinds of area where interference isn't uncommon.

As Xenon pointed out Noise... just doesn't do what you need with a jammer. Frankly, they should go back to the 4e Matrix. It wasn't perfect, but it was a shit ton better than this.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on <07-08-18/1509:24>
Jammers jam. (No shit!!) And they do it to EVERY SINGLE signal in their range.


Not the truth...

Quote from: Core Book, 2nd Printing, page 441
Jammer: This device floods the airwaves with electromagnetic jamming signals to block out wireless and radio communication. The jammer generates noise equal to its Device Rating. The area jammer affects a spherical area - its rating is reduced by 1 for every 5 meters from the center (similar to the blast rules for grenades). The directional jammer affects a conical area with a 30-degree spread - its rating is reduced by 1 for every 20 meters from the center. The jammer only affects devices (and personas on those devices) that are within the jamming area, but it affects all of them. Walls and other obstacles may  prevent the jamming signal from spreading or reduce its effect (gamemaster’s discretion).

Wireless: You can set your jammer to not interfere with devices and personas you designate.

So Jammers aren't a grenade.  That doesn't make them entirely surgical, but they aren't as chaotic as you are trying to make them out to be.

If a team wanted to drop a Jammer in a night club so their target couldn't call for back up, the team could "whitelist" the lights, the sound system, the payment system, and whatever else they wanted to in order to keep it from being IMMEDIATELY noticed.

Jammers should be in every teams arsenal, because sometimes they are the right tool for the job.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on <07-09-18/2224:15>
So Jammers aren't a grenade.  That doesn't make them entirely surgical, but they aren't as chaotic as you are trying to make them out to be.

Thinking on this further, it is very possible to make Jammers almost surgical.  It requires the GM to be fairly tech savvy, in that they need some experience in CLI scripting to understand how simple it would be to write a script (wouldn't even count as an App in SR5 terminology) that would allow you to select an Icon - or several - and send them to this script.
The script would compile all the icons in a 100 meter radius into a list, then delete the selected icons from that list.  Then it would upload the list to the Jammer and then activate the Jammer.

Instant (nearly) surgical Jamming of only a few selected devices.

The only reason it isn't completely surgical is that any device outside the 100 meter radius that then enters the range of the Jammer would not be "whitelisted."

As long as the GM can wrap their head around the methodology, nearly perfect selective Jamming.
Title: Re: So uh, bricking guns?
Post by: Spooky on <07-10-18/1506:24>
So Jammers aren't a grenade.  That doesn't make them entirely surgical, but they aren't as chaotic as you are trying to make them out to be.

Thinking on this further, it is very possible to make Jammers almost surgical.  It requires the GM to be fairly tech savvy, in that they need some experience in CLI scripting to understand how simple it would be to write a script (wouldn't even count as an App in SR5 terminology) that would allow you to select an Icon - or several - and send them to this script.
The script would compile all the icons in a 100 meter radius into a list, then delete the selected icons from that list.  Then it would upload the list to the Jammer and then activate the Jammer.

Instant (nearly) surgical Jamming of only a few selected devices.

The only reason it isn't completely surgical is that any device outside the 100 meter radius that then enters the range of the Jammer would not be "whitelisted."

As long as the GM can wrap their head around the methodology, nearly perfect selective Jamming.

This sounds like mil-spec jamming to me. Good way to apply rules. "yoink"