[Lormyr]

The value of a high edge attribute varies wildly based upon defenses in play on both sides, attacks in play on both sides, combat situation (surprise, ect.), number of allies vs. number of opposition, and skill of allies vs. skill of opposition.

The value of a 9 body for soak or 8 charisma for drain are pretty much always high.

[Finstersang]

Is the issue here only about picking metatype priority A to get human(9)? Because traditionally, prio A has been to pick troll or ork, whereas humans tended to take prio E. The special attribute points have created a reason to pick a higher metatype prio yet still play a human, but I agree that 9 points are pretty hard to make efficient use of. So if prio A doesn't work for you, don't take it. Traditionally the advantage of playing a human is that you can take metatype priority E.

(Disclaimer: I haven't read the 6th edition rules, but from what I read in this thread, this particular aspect sounds very similar to how it works in 5th.)

(By 'traditionally' I mean editions 2 and 3, which didn't have Edge or special attribute points. Special attribute points were introduced in 5th ad far as I know.)

That part about human(9) is just a side note, because it further devaluates the (already quite questionable) benefit of the higher Edge maximum.  Humans have only that one benefit, and nothing else.

Here´s how 6th Edition works (in difference to 5th Edition)

• Everyone Metatype is ready and available right from Priority E (TBH, not a problem for me)
• Everyone starts with every Attribute at 1. Strength 1 Ork geeks are a thing now (TBH, not a problem for me)
• Standard Attribute Range goes from 1-6. Some Metas do actually still have lowered racial maximums (Gasp! How problematic!), but these are quite tame compared to 5th Edition (TBH, not a problem for me as well. Troll Deckers for the win!)
• Metas have a higher Maximum on different physical and mental attributes PLUS the option to raise said attributes with their Special Attribute points PLUS additional positive qualities (Low-light Vision, Dermal Deposits, that stuff)
• Humans have  an Edge maximum of 7 instead of 6, which is supposed to be their only mechanical benefit
• "Wait", you might say now: "Don´t humans get more Special Attribute Points on each row, like in 5th Edition?". Nope, not anymore. The special Attribute points are the same for every Metatype on each row. The "Metatype" columns is mostly a "Special Attribute points" column now, because the only priorities without all Metatypes available are A and B (And it´s Humans that are missing there, probably because they would have a hard time to distribute the Special Attributes)

And that higher limit is worth drek compared to the benefits of Metas. Why?

• It´s worth nothing unless you actually want to play a 7-Edge character
  
• You still have to pay the same price in Special Attribute Points/Karma to get there as anyone else
• To get there just with Special Attribute Points, you´d have to Pick Human (9), which means that you have to combine it with  Magic/Resonance to not lose the excess
• While 6th Edition is all about Edge now, actually having an Edge Attribute of 6 or 7 is not nearly as powerfull as it was in 5th Edition. Some would even consider it a trap. It mostly serves as a limit on how much of you accumulated Edge you can transition between scenes. Since you can only accumulate a maximum of 7 Edge at any time and lose all the excess anyways, you´d have to be quite lucky to end a fight or a scene on an Edge count of precisely 7 so that you actually benefit from you your Edge Attribute of 7. And since you often get Edge on a test before having the opportunity to spend it, that small benefit from theoretically being able to start a fight with 7 Edge instead of 6 is also likely to evaporate.

Max Edge 7 instead of 6 only matters if you actually go for a 7-Edge character, which I feel has a diminished value due to the absolute cap of 7 at any time. Also, no other benefits at all. So I'd probably give them a small boost in return. Doesn't have to be near Dwarf/Troll levels, since those face increased costs, but maybe something simple like 5 extra karma.

Precisely my thought as well. It doesn´t even need to be totally on par with Karma Costs of the other Meta´s special abilities, since it offers more freedom for costumization. I also like the idea of letting Humans spend their Special Attribute Points on any Attribute they like.

[Xenon]

It´s worth nothing unless you actually want to play a 7-Edge character

Elf is only worth the free low light vision quality if you don't have agility or charisma above 6. And if you plan on getting cybereyes then you don't even get this benefit. The mechanical difference is not really that huge to be honest.

Not like in 5th edition where metatypes where troll was 'worth' 8 extra attribute points, ork and dwarf 5 extra attribute points, and elf 3 extra attribute points. That was pretty huge.

In 6th edition some metatypes have higher racial maximums and humans have higher racial edge attribute. Same same. But since edge gain during play is capped at 7 that last point might in some cases go to waste. If humans seem weak compared to the others I guess one could rule that humans should have an edge cap of 8 instead of 7. But without actually play testing to see how the new edge mechanic plays out in practice it is very hard to theorycraft around this.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

C'mon, people.  This shouldn't be hard, even for those who have never actually delved into 6we chargen:


For every SAP point a meta puts into a special racial attribute (the ones you used to get bonus points in, in previous edtions...) that's not a point in Edge.

Ergo: Metas can either be "meta-like" and suffer a deficiency in Edge compared to the exact same character had it been a human, or they can basically just be a funny looking human.


Isn't there a thread around here somewhere that complains about there being no point to playing a meta in 6we? Participants in each thread ought to get the others' perspectives

[Finstersang]

C'mon, people.  This shouldn't be hard, even for those who have never actually delved into 6we chargen:


For every SAP point a meta puts into a special racial attribute (the ones you used to get bonus points in, in previous edtions...) that's not a point in Edge.

Ergo: Metas can either be "meta-like" and suffer a deficiency in Edge compared to the exact same character had it been a human, or they can basically just be a funny looking human.


Isn't there a thread around here somewhere that complains about there being no point to playing a meta in 6we? Participants in each thread ought to get the others' perspectives

In other words: Metas can choose to put their SAP into 2 additional, mechanically better Attributes that also have raised maximums. And they would still be better than humans if they don´t because of their additional qualities.

This also doesn´t adress the problem that Edge 7 can´t even be reached at chargen without going Human (9) and, most importantly, the fact that Edge 7 is a mechanical trap that yields almost no benefit in the new system. If Edge would still work like it did in 5th Edition, it would be worthwhile, but not in 6th Edition.

And that "What´s the point of being a Meta in 6th Edition?"-discussion was largely build on rumors. It´s definetely over since the full priority chart came out.

[Hephaestus]

For those who are bagging on 6WE edge use, I will say it is designed to be gained and spent far more frequently and consistently than in 5th. So having a higher edge attribute means you can charge up more and use more edge actions more frequently (assuming you can gain edge during your activation via actions, and outside your activation via reactions).

Side Tangent...
My issue is that a lot of the edge actions you can do aren't fun to use. Manipulating dice pools one die at a time to achieve the desired result, or to stop your opponent's desired result, isn't fun. Someone telling you your 1s and 2s now both count for glitches isn't fun. Being able to fundamentally break the game world for 5 edge isn't a fun concept (and one that used to require burning edge to pull off). And the actions you can take while burning edge are way too close to standard 4- and 5-edge actions that you can use multiple times.

Back on track...
This edition pushes humans to be edgelords from chargen, starting at 5-7 edge in addition to possibly being magical/awakened. But that doesn't really offer any variety. Humans are expected to make that up with their gear/augs/spells, which can feel cheap.

A simple fix would be to let human players pick one normal attribute to be their special attribute, so they get a native +1 cap and can split their special points on it.

[Finstersang]

A simple fix would be to let human players pick one normal attribute to be their special attribute, so they get a native +1 cap and can split their special points on it.

Pretty much this. Alternatively, a reasonable Karma Bonus (about 5-10 should be enough). 

Nothing too broken, and the flexibility compensates for the fact that Metas will propably still have a small advantage from a purely mathematical POV because of their qualities and the raised maximum values.

Edit: Ouh, another idea that might fit better with the human=average notion: Humans can invest their SAP into any Physical or Mental Attribute, but only 1 Point each. Fits strangely well with Human (9): A mundane human could get +1 to every mental and physical Attribute + Edge.

[Shinobi Killfist]

It´s worth nothing unless you actually want to play a 7-Edge character

Elf is only worth the free low light vision quality if you don't have agility or charisma above 6. And if you plan on getting cybereyes then you don't even get this benefit. The mechanical difference is not really that huge to be honest.

Not like in 5th edition where metatypes where troll was 'worth' 8 extra attribute points, ork and dwarf 5 extra attribute points, and elf 3 extra attribute points. That was pretty huge.

In 6th edition some metatypes have higher racial maximums and humans have higher racial edge attribute. Same same. But since edge gain during play is capped at 7 that last point might in some cases go to waste. If humans seem weak compared to the others I guess one could rule that humans should have an edge cap of 8 instead of 7. But without actually play testing to see how the new edge mechanic plays out in practice it is very hard to theorycraft around this.

The benefit is there even if you don’t go to 7 agility or 7-8 charisma. Then benefit is you save points you might have used from your attributes column. Humans don’t have that fairly large advantage.

Unlike a higher charisma 7 edge doesn’t actually help much past a 5 or 6.

Let’s look at the chart e and d you aren’t really penalized much for being human assuming your build needs the edge. Small hits no low light etc. c and above you are. C is also the only time a human can get his supposed advantage of 7 edge. But that leaves 4 points in the trash if you are mundane. I guess suck it street sams.

But hey if you are a elf you can put 5 points into edge for a 6 edge which is basically just as good as a 7. And now you have 5 points to put into agility and charisma. Even if you stop at 6 that’s 5 points from your a attributes you don’t have to put in agility. 24 spread among 7 stats is better than 8.
And on top of that low light etc.

Very specific high edge magically active builds may work out to be roughly the same. But still technically weaker since they lose out on freebies and higher caps. 8 dice in your drain stat is better than 6.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

So, for curiosity's sake: how many of the people saying that humans need some house rule lovin' have actually made characters?  Because I imagine that this perspective is coming from a place born solely of theorycrafting with no practical experience... probably built more on groupthink than actually employing the priority chart oneself.

Too many people are confusing the racial cap of 7 edge for the real advantage that humans get in 6we.

And no I'm not going to say again what the real advantage I'm referring to is.  A) I've already said it and near as I can tell it's going over most people's heads and B) if you just actually make some characters, it becomes obvious.

[penllawen]

So, for curiosity's sake: how many of the people saying that humans need some house rule lovin' have actually made characters?

Well, I (for one) don't have the book, so I can't. I'm probably not the only one.

And no I'm not going to say again what the real advantage I'm referring to is.  A) I've already said it and near as I can tell it's going over most people's heads and B) if you just actually make some characters, it becomes obvious.

[Michael Chandra]

Humans have no special racial attributes or racial qualities, only attribute that caps above 6 is Edge. Dwarfs and Trolls pay extra for Gear, Orks face a lower cap on Charisma but for the rest Orks and Elves face no mechanical downsides. If there's some form of hidden mechanical advantage, I can't find it. So yes, as far as I can tell Humans are inferior even with equal builds, because they don't have any racial qualities. And sure, maybe those can be replicated through other means, but I still don't see why you'd ever go Human if you can get an extra freebie as Elf even with an identical build, unless you want to look Human (because Human-Looking is more expensive than Low-Light Vision).

If we had a weapon that had identical cost to an Ares Predator and identical stats, but inferior in 1 aspect, nobody would buy it unless they want to avoid the Ares Predator specifically. The same seems to apply here: "It cost too much, staying human" - Bruce Sterling

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Alright, one more time... coming at it in a new way:

It's the same advantage mundanes have over magicians.

Yes, mundanes give up sorcery, summoning, the entire astral plane, and more.  It's a huge penalty to play a mundane, right?

Yes, but the upside is mundanes get to ignore the entire E row on the priority chart, as that's where magic goes. 

Same thing for humans.  They don't stress over what to put in E, but now also D. Human mundanes only worry about how to spend A-C on Attributes, Skills, Resources.  There's no "hard" choice on the priority chart for a mundane human.  THAT is the big racial advantage.  (admittedly, this main human advantage would get marginalized in a point buy chargen system.  So I'm not sad there is no point buy chargen yet.)

Human magicians/technomancers have less of a racial advantage than mundane humans in having only 1 potential dump priority rather than a guaranteed 2, but Awakened/Emerged humans still have their dump priority advantage vs Awakened/Emerged metahumans who have no dump choices whatsoever.

[Michael Chandra]

Any non-7-Edge Human Build I can make with Elf and get Low-Light Vision as bonus. Any non-7-Edge non-6-Charisma Human Build I can make with Ork and get both Low-Light Vision and 1 extra physical CM box. So if you go D metatype, there's no reason to touch Human. The only possible downsides are in the roleplay, mechanically there are none. So how is 'I have less choices to worry about' an advantage when they're still inferior compared to other metatypes making the same choices?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Any non-7-Edge Human Build I can make with Elf and get Low-Light Vision as bonus. Any non-7-Edge non-6-Charisma Human Build I can make with Ork and get both Low-Light Vision and 1 extra physical CM box. So if you go D metatype, there's no reason to touch Human. The only possible downsides are in the roleplay, mechanically there are none. So how is 'I have less choices to worry about' an advantage when they're still inferior compared to other metatypes making the same choices?

If you're putting all the SAPs for a meta into Edge and none into special racial attributes, one might just was well ask "why are you playing a meta" as "why are you playing a human".

Racial Qualities are cheaply replicated. Sure, a human might have to shell out a couple hundred nuyen to get contacts that duplicate the elf's natural low light vision. That's a couple hundred nuyen as a cost (such as it is) against the roleplay advantages of being a human. Sure, there's also some roleplay downsides to being a human (e.g. the run takes you into the Ork underground) but all in all it's a world built by humans for humans.

As Hobbes mentioned, there's less difference between the races from a mechanical POV.  The "advantage" that metas have in chargen is they can pick to be a human with a few free racial abilities, or they can pick to be super-human at cost of not having human-like edge. Or they can have both, at a steep cost of a priority pick.  Humans "have" to take the edge for negligible opportunity cost, but that's a hell of a rather valuable "downside" to have given the importance and impact of edge in 6we.

[Lormyr]

the real advantage that humans get in 6we.

There is nothing wrong with your perspective, but what you see as a real advantage I see as nothing more than pigeonholed choices.