NEWS

Can mundanes see Sustained Spells?

  • 149 Replies
  • 35109 Views

Senko

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2485
« Reply #105 on: <04-28-18/1753:24> »
@Stainlesssteeldevilrat
The issue with all your examples is thay your making assumptions about how things work and going from there there isn't as far as I recall (don't have access to my books) even a "Noticing magic uses normal perception rules" in the books themselves. That said if you were gming a game I was playing in I wouldn't have a problem with most of your interpretations even aside from the usual someone's table their rules basis of a game.

Again I'm not arguing how the rules should be read just pointing out (as evidenced by this thread) there's a huge open area for agreement because as you said they're vague. That may be by design but if so I don't think it should be. Rules should be clear so you can go this is the rule and then decide if you want to houserule differently. As opposed to this might be the rule does anyone have a problem with how I choose to apply it in this campaign? Personally I actually agree as written people get a check for all magic (if you want hyperbole every spell can be potentially felt by everyone connected by the gaiaspehre) which is why I houserule it otherwise clearly.

Marcus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2802
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #106 on: <04-28-18/2326:52> »
The solution I would use for resolving this disparity is that a person only gets to "Perceive Magic" when they are in some way interacting with it. This would include: Witnessing a spell being cast (being in the vicinity of the casting), passing through an astral form (even if you are mundane; see Astral Forms), being the target of a spell, etc.

By my understanding, this doesn't violate any of the principles set forth in the rules outlined for Perceiving Magic. In fact, I think my list matches up with the examples that they give pretty well. It solves the problem of being able to "see the magic" of spells that are designed to not draw attention (such as Invisibility). Although in some cases I might be willing to let a character be able to notice something by spending the Observe in Detail Simple Action if they have some reason to suspect magic is in play. (essentially, they are looking for the "signs of magic")


I will add one more thing: The argument against the idea that the rules specify performing magic when referencing how to determine the threshold, which means that it no longer applies when you aren't actively performing magic... The idea that this means that you just use the 6-F formula instead is inherently flawed. First, that part of the rule is very explicit when it says that it applies when no skill is involved, (which spells very clearly involve a skill). Second, applying that part of the rule post-facto would mean that spells would become easier or harder to spot after the fact. For example, a low-skill magician (Rating 2) essentially can't cast spells that aren't blatantly obvious (minimum 1 threshold), they just aren't skilled enough to keep their "tells" in check, but if we applied that 6-F threshold, their spells suddenly become difficult to spot? Or inversely, an extremely skilled magician (Rating 10) casting at Force 6, their spells are extremely difficult to notice, but then suddenly are obvious? that really wouldn't make sense...

This does fit my understanding of RAI.
*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

Overbyte

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 517
« Reply #107 on: <05-01-18/1604:48> »
Gone for the weekend and back to see another 2-3 pages of this. Not saying that's a bad thing. Just interesting.

I am in agreement with a number of the posters that point out the following:

1) The book has two examples, seeing a spell cast (which we all agree you get a chance to perceive) and passing through a barrier (in which case you are directly interacting with the magic).
2) I think most everyone agrees that the ward case is an example that shows if the spell is already cast skill no longer comes into play with regards to perception.
3) The only case the book gives about noticing already existing magic is at 0 range. Not trying to get too much into the heads of the writers but otherwise they could have written that you roll when you come across (see) an existing ward. Not when you pass through it.

Anything after that IMO becomes very tricky, my first question would be what KIND of perception roll do you actually use?

"Spirits sometimes cause the air to shimmer, even from astral space. People have reported feeling chills, dread, or other unnatural sensations they can’t quite put their finger on when magic is in the area."  SR5 p280

Sight clearly would work but what about blind characters? But more commonly what about characters that have different bonuses to different types of perception. Touch to feel the chill? Or whatever sense you use for "unnatural sensations"? Or always use their best? And then clearly they would get the modifications appropriate to sense used. So you would have to compute all possibilities and then take the best.
Note: This is a rhetorical question since I don't think there is any good answer here.

So for me it comes back to what @Jack_Spade said about how it should be played.

Quote
As GM I have discretion to let players and NPCs notice magic (=/=see) if it's furthering the plot. Otherwise I'll keep strict to the rules with the given examples.

If you see it (Skill - F) or pass through it (6 - F) you will get a roll, I'll just have to figure out what sense (and mods) you will get.
Nothing is foolproof. Fools are so ingenious.

KoD

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 7
« Reply #108 on: <05-28-18/0420:42> »
I'd like to comment on this, because it is an interesting topic of discussion, I would like to stress before I begin that I will be approaching this academically and do not intend to make personal attack on anyone. If you believe that I fail at this and that I do make a personal attack please let me know so I can apologise and alter how I behave in future. Also feel free to disagree, conversations are boring when people don’t.

I'd also like to clarify the following, I also came from older editions where the intent was a far more subtle magic and was written clearly as such, however this is 5th edition and I will be focusing on it as its own entity, so any input from older editions will be superseded by 5th. In fact I wasn’t even aware it may have changed until I read this thread, so I will be having to actively ignore my own previous assumptions on this matter.

To begin, lets examine the first paragraph in perceiving magic. It starts with the statements that 'magic is rarely subtle' and 'any form of magic (examples) changes the world around it', both imply that magic is noticeable but do not implicitly state as such. It then goes on to state 'sometimes its obvious through a magicians gestures or incantations', followed by a fluff bit saying magicians are sometimes called twitchy fingers. This sentence annoys me, it feels like it ends to soon, like someone was about to follow up with some kind of sometimes it not example but got distracted by the twitchy fingers example and forgot to finish their sentence. Regardless of how poor I feel the sentence is, it once again implies that magic is in one way or another, noticeable, I could write a few paragraphs on how much I hate the idea of spotting 'twitchy fingers' but its not needed for this discussion.

The next sentence is 'spirits sometimes cause the air to shimmer, even from astral space', and here we have the first instance of an otherwise invisible effect being noticed, also worth noting is that the spirit is making itself noticed by altering the equivalent material space it would be in and it doesn’t make mention of in requiring effect on the observer to be observed. This is probably the first really usable sentence going forward, it give some solid information without being too vague, not enough to go on by itself, but useful none the less. The final sentence, 'people have reported feeling chills, dread, or other unnatural sensations they can’t quite put their finger on when magic is in the area', is another useful one, it lets us know that perception of magic goes beyond the normal 5 senses, dread can be felt in response to and as an indicator of magic that would be otherwise imperceptible. The second half is also invaluable to us, 'when magic is in the area', this lets us know that effect on observer is not necessarily needed, its not perfect since the term area is about a vague as it gets but its still a solid step towards an answer.

To sum up the first paragraph on its own, the intent feels very clear that magic is potentially noticeable even when it isn’t obvious, it isn’t automatically noticed and details beyond the presence of a magical effect do not exist, but it does make the distinct impression that all magic can be noticed. However, it seems an easy inference that magic that is noticed might not even be noticed as magic, you could feel a chill from magic and adjust the AC in response, see a shimmer in the air and clean your glasses to make it go away, noticing magic and recognising that you have seem to be two different things.

On the the second paragraph and the fun part, rules. Lets focus on magic with a skill involved first, 'Noticing magic is a simple Perception + Intuition [Mental] Test with a threshold equal to the Skill Rating of the being performing it minus the Force of the magic' now this is straightforward, and easy, to notice magic you just make a perception test against a threshold, the one hiccup is the term 'performing', but we'll get back to that later. Now for when a skill isn’t involved 'or 6 – Force if there’s no skill involved (minimum 1 in either case).' again, straightforward and easy, and give us the clarifier that there is a minimum in both cases, solidifying that while magic can be noticed it is not automatic.

The paragraph goes on to give some examples and state that a magical skill can give the observer bonuses, and honestly I feel that these examples are terrible. The first example gives us no new information to use as it is just an implementation of the math, it gives us no indication of what was seen or felt or heard or what, just that it was spotted on that roll. The second one does give us some more though, it states that a test is made when you walk through the ward, and it says that two things that could be used as an identifier is either a tingle or seeing some markings. Annoyingly those markings are not explained, if they are just real markings carved in to something then they shouldn’t be detected with a perceiving magic test, that’s just a straight up normal perception test that even a drone could do, and the test would happen before going through the ward. I really don’t like these examples. The part where having a magical skill is interesting though, and complicates the earlier idea that you might not know you're noticing magic, does it mean that you're 'magically attuned' or whatever and as such more sensitive to this kind of thing or does it mean that you are better at separating false alarms from the real deal? The latter definitely debunks the idea that you can notice magic without realizing it.

After that paragraph it seems an easy thing, if skill is involved use x formula, if skill is not involved use y, for x roll perception vs (skill rating of being performing the skill-force), for y roll perception vs (6-force). This however, is not the case, otherwise we wouldn’t all be here, so lets throw an oft used example in to that equation.

Improved invisibility on a mage walking trough a security checkpoint, it is a magical effect that involves a skill, so we use x formula. Here in is the rub as presented by others so far, in that the calculation for the threshold requires the skill of the magician performing the spell, that the mage is no longer 'performing' the spell, and therefore the magic cannot be detected due to the formula not being completed.

Now, a critical problem here is that this is a formula to perceive magic, and there is nothing so far in the perceiving magic section to suggest that there is any magic that can not possibly be perceived, so there must be a solution here somewhere.

The solution as proposed by some other posters, is that it simply uses y formula instead. I do not like this for a few reasons, number one is that the rules clearly state that formula y is for when no skill is involved and in this case there very much so is, a skill was used to cast the spell. Number two is that it allows for no way for a magic user to increase their ability to go undetected outside lower force, which kinda sucks.

So now we are left with the problem, we are feeding this use case in to the rules and not getting a proper result, we are in effect getting an error as up until the calculation of the threshold it is rather straight forward, then we end up expecting a number where there isn’t one. This outcome should not, as the rules are presented to us, result in the magic not being possibly detectable, but to simply throw it in to the other option despite it being the wrong option is also not what the outcome of this rule should be.

If I had to pinpoint where the wording of this rule is wrong, it would be the word 'performing'. I just  did a word search of the SR5 CRB and there was not a definition of what constitutes performing magic entails. Some have assumed that it is the act of casting, which is a fair assumption that I too may have come to had I not been reading the rule with a critical eye, however with this rule in mind I feel that that is not the case. I think that performing magic begins when a spell is cast and ends when the spells effect ends for the purpose of this rule, to my knowledge of the English language this is an appropriate use of the word performing, this use make the above example of improved invisibility flow through the rule properly, and there is nothing in the perceiving magic section that contradicts this interpretation.

Now, you may be thinking, how is the mage 'performing magic' in the case of improved invisibility, its effectually a fire and forget spell, but its not, it is sustained and therefore the mage is still having input on it even if it is passive. Just look at other illusion spells as an example, such as trid phantasm, you create a bunch of illusions that you continue to control past the casting of the spell, in that case I feel it is painfully clear that you are still 'performing magic' with active input. Now admittedly this brings up questions of what happens when you put it in a sustaining focus, since its sustaining it instead of you and whether it still uses the skill formula or the non skill formula, but I'd  rather not get in to that yet as it isn’t really directly relevant to the discussion at hand.

The final paragraph is fairly unnecessary for us, just pointing out the obvious that things like an exploding fireball need not be rolled for in this way.

To conclude my reading of the perceiving magic section, I would say that the rules for detecting magic can most definitely be applied to things such as sustained or quickened spells, and that they use the first formula as opposed to the second. They can be detected without the need for the observer to be affected by the thing to be detected, and that even when they are detected they aren’t necessarily understood as the detection of magic, let alone pinpointed in their detection. That said, the rule remains vague on things such as range and what modifiers would apply to the test.

I hope you found my ramblings useful, and invite any critique or comment you may have, especially on the point of how this approach will interact with sustaining foci and any houserules you would apply, I for example would probably let a spec in magic reduce the chances of magic being detected for that type, though I am unsure as to how much it would change it. Also sorry for the length, believe it or not this is the cut down version.

Redwulfe

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 770
« Reply #109 on: <05-28-18/1015:49> »
I would have to agree on KoD's interpretations and conclusion. RAW it is obvious, to me at least, that magic is not ever Undetectable. When RAW does not work we have no choice but to try and deduce RAI until a point that RAI are clarified with an FAQ.  RAI however will vary based on the GM and that is fine though in Missions it can be problematic as players expect consistent rulings. I do feel that a consensus is necessary in that regard but not in home games as long as the GM is constant in his rulings. The one thing that bothers me is the vagueness of the use of area for detection with no definition of what the area entails. Currently I am using the force of the spell in meters which makes the use of regents very important with spell casting as you can reduce the force without reducing its effect but does make it harder to detect because the threshold for detection is much higher now.
There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't

Red

*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

Xenon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6468
« Reply #110 on: <05-28-18/1127:33> »
then they shouldn’t be detected with a perceiving magic test, that’s just a straight up normal perception test
Noticing magic is a regular perception test. Perception (no matter if it is "regular" perception or "noticing magic") is resolved as a Simple Perception + Intuition [Mental] Test with a threshold.

Specializations for perception are: Hearing, Scent, Searching, Taste, Touch, Visual and Numinous.

The visual specialization apply when there is something visual for you to notice; such as "twitchy fingers" when a magician cast a manabolt or "markings of a ward" as you walk through a ward.

Numinous apply when there is something "6th sense"-ish you can sense; such as "the feeling of slightly breathless" and/or "chill or tingling sensation" when an astral form pass through your aura but also "feeling chills, dread, or other unnatural sensations" that you might feel as you for example walk through a ward or if you are being the subject of a mental manipulation spell.

As for the threshold....

You don't need to take the test at all to notice things that are obvious. For example you don't need to pick up dice to notice the electricity sparkling from the fingertips of a magician casting an indirect lightning bolt spell or if you are the conscious victim of a control actions mental manipulation spell.

The threshold is 1 for noticing something obvious/large/loud such as a neon sign, running crowd, yelling or gunfire... or noticing "twitchy fingers" when a magician with magic 6 cast a force 5 (or stronger) manabolt or feel the "tingling sensation" when you walk through a force 5 (or stronger) ward.

2 for noticing something normal such as a street sign, pedestrian, conversation or silenced gunfire... or getting a "feeling of dread" when a magician with magic 6 successfully cast a force 4 Influence spell on you or to feel the "chills" as you walk through a force 4 ward.


3 for noticing something obscured/small/muffled such as item dropped under table, contact lenses or whispering... or a feeling of "magic in the air" when a magician with magic 8 successfully cast a force 5 Mob Mind spell on you and your team or to spot the magic markings when you walk through a force 3 ward.

4 for noticing something hidden/micro/silent such as a secret door, needle in a haystack or subvocal speech... or to notice "twichy fingers" when a magician with magic 5 cast a force 1 increase reflexes spell or to notice "slight breathless" when an astral entity pass through your aura.



a skill was used to cast the spell
A skill was used to cast the ward (and the act of casting the ward can be noticed), but when a subject step through it they still use 6-F to notice it.
« Last Edit: <05-28-18/1213:05> by Xenon »

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4572
« Reply #111 on: <05-28-18/1131:29> »
Thanks for your contribution to the thread, KoD.  Your kind of analysis is exactly what I was hoping to see from other people's perspectives as opposed to opinion/emotion-fueled responses that I sometimes got.

My position should be well established by this point upthread, so there's no point in repeating it.  I would like to provide the solicited feedback to your argument, however.

Using Force to define the undefined "area" concept:  An ingenious and elegant idea.  Easy to administer, and incentivizes the use of reagents (for sustained magic).  I think I'm adopting it for my own use :)

Assigning a definition of "performing" to extend from beginning to end of magical effect:  Interesting, but I don't think it stands up to scrutiny.  First of all, if that were the case then the Ward example would be confused as if it were cast via Ritual Magic as opposed to naturally occurring encountering that ward would require the Skill formula and in the case of the example it doesn't.  Secondly, the definition gets complicated by quickened/anchored spells.  Your skill really has nothing to do any more with the ongoing effect of a spell sustained by karma or alchemy.  And if you use a bound spirit to sustain a spell, if anyone's qualities at all should be in play it'd be the spirit's.  Thirdly, the idea really doesn't translate at all beyond spells.  The first paragraph used the example of a spirit lurking passively in astral space being potentially detectable.. so should your Conjuring skill really still be making it less detectable some hours later after you conjured it? So at risk of going back to harp on my arguments... I'm not seeing the idea of exending "performance" to the point the magic ends as being a viable alternative to saying "Use Y when encountering the magic at any point after the initial creation of the magical effect".
« Last Edit: <05-28-18/1135:21> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Xenon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6468
« Reply #112 on: <05-28-18/1146:26> »
It is clear that you don't need to take a perception test to spot obvious magic (like the flames from an indirect combat spell originating from the magician).

It is clear that you don't need to take a perception test to sense that you are the victim of an obvious mental manipulation spell (such as control actions).

It is clear that you may take a perception test to spot a magician as he is casting a spell.

It is clear that you may take a perception test to sense that you are under magic effects from a subtle manipulation spell.

It is clear that you may take a perception test to either sense or spot a ward as you pass through it (plausible that it also apply to magical lodges etc).

It is clear that you may take a perception test to sense an astral form passing through your aura.


I'd say that without clarification anything beyond the above point is speculation and open for debate.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4572
« Reply #113 on: <05-28-18/1215:11> »
It is clear that you don't need to take a perception test to spot obvious magic (like the flames from an indirect combat spell originating from the magician).

It is clear that you don't need to take a perception test to sense that you are the victim of an obvious mental manipulation spell (such as control actions).

It is clear that you may take a perception test to spot a magician as he is casting a spell.

It is clear that you may take a perception test to sense that you are under magic effects from a subtle manipulation spell.

It is clear that you may take a perception test to either sense or spot a ward as you pass through it (plausible that it also apply to magical lodges etc).

It is clear that you may take a perception test to sense an astral form passing through your aura.


I'd say that without clarification anything beyond the above point is speculation and open for debate.

I'd quibble to say that there are a handful of other "knowns" that are beyond debate:

The list of phenomenae in the 1st paragraph (conjuring, spellcasting, enchanting, magical lodges, and the astral presence of spirits) are all perceptible.  Either automatically so without a perception roll (third paragraph), or perceptible via a test (second paragraph).

We know that if the observer has an Active or Knowledge Magic-related skill, s/he gets +2 dice for this perception test (second paragraph).
« Last Edit: <05-28-18/1216:48> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Xenon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6468
« Reply #114 on: <05-28-18/1258:55> »
...and from p. 314 that you can specialize in Perception Numinous, that Numinous apply both for "bad vibes" from noticing magic and astral forms passing through your aura, that the threshold for noticing an astral form passing through your aura is fixed at 4 and that if you are awakened you get a positive dice pool modifier of 2 dice to sense it.

First paragraph on p. 280 Noticing Magic is fluff. There is no rule in this paragraph. Rules to explain the fluff will (must) follow (but sometimes it is scattered over the book).

"Skill Rating of the being performing it" is not limited to the act of casting a spell. It is plausible that it also include summoning, banishing, binding, disenchanting, artificing, making an alchemical preparation, performing ritual spellcasting, casting a spell as a complex action, recklessly casting a spell as a simple action and maybe even counterspelling.

And it is plausible that you may also take a test to notice magic or spot markings as you pass through a magical lodge (and not just wards).

It is clear that you may take a test to notice a spirit in astral when an astral form passes through their aura (according to p. 314 it have a fixed threshold of 4), but can you also spot a spirit that is not passing through you aura... and if so does it mean that a force 5+ spirit will be as obvious to spot by a mundane subject as a neon sign or a running crowd (threshold of 6-F)?? (I don't think this is clear at all)

It is clear that you may take a test to notice magic in the area if you are the victim of the effects from a subtle mental AoE manipulation spell (according to p. 292), but can you also sense an improved invisibility spell in the area... and if so how big is this area?? (I don't think this is clear at all)
« Last Edit: <05-28-18/1306:35> by Xenon »

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4572
« Reply #115 on: <05-28-18/1336:19> »
Indeed, the knots are "just how big is 'the area' in which you can perceive magic?" and apparently "are ongoing magical effects encountered post-skill use perceptible?".
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

easl

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 52
« Reply #116 on: <05-28-18/1520:56> »
I have no idea what the intent of the authors was, but it seems to me that an automatic perception test for sustained spells really hurts most illusion and detection spells.  All invisibility spells sets people's thumbs pricking (illustrative example of a 'sixth sense' response)?  And sustaining a 'detect enemies' spell now probably alerts those enemies that you're coming?   What's even the point of the Stealth spell now? Casting it a high level is supposed to make it *harder* for the person to be detected, but according to the auto-roll interpretation, it actually makes it *easier* to detect them!  And this is not just bad for PC mages, it's bad for the GMs npcs too; now a mage monitoring an area for thieves or what have you gives away his/her presence merely by doing the monitoring.

IOW whatever the intent, some consequences of the auto-roll interpretation seem problematic.


Rosa

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 395
« Reply #117 on: <05-28-18/1823:34> »
Example: I'm a mage, I'm in a hallway and around the corner is a security guard, so I cast my improved invisibility spell to sneak past him, now I don't want to be seen so I cast it at force 6 and gets my 6 hits I then turn the corner and try to sneak past him.

At this point the guard can.....
Potentially smell me
Potentially hear me
Potentially resist my illusion with a Intuition + logic

And you want to give the guard what is essentially another way to detect me with yet another easily made perception roll to detect magic? I honestly don't care what RAW or RAI exactly is here, because that's just plain wrong.

And please don't use the "just cast at force 1 and use reagents " argument. Don't get me wrong I really like the idea of reagents but that specific use of them is potentially the worst mechanic introduced in 5th edition. It has essentially made magic a pay-to-win and how-many-can-you-carry game, which is just stupid and almost totally makes the force concept useless.

Now this discussion has gone back and forth but there is one question that still has not been answered by the proponents of the "you always get to try and sense magic".

Why? Do they feel the need to actually point out that victims of mental manipulation spells gets to roll to notice magic ( SR5 pg 292 ) ?
No other spell category gets this mention.
This rule is actually new to 5th edition, it does not exist in 4th edition.

To me this seems a clear indication of the specific rules trumps general rules. Meaning that the inclusion of this rule indicates that you would not get to notice any other sustained spells,  but you do actually get to notice it if you're the target of a mental manipulation spell even if you didn't perceive the spell being cast in the first place.

If they really intended for that rule to count with every type of sustained spell, then the whole passage about specifically mental manipulation spells is meaningless repetition that oddly enough is only mentioned in one place and in one specific sub category of spells.

Lastly I think that these rules are unfortunately a classic example of 5th edition sloppy writing and lack of proper editing.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4572
« Reply #118 on: <05-28-18/1848:48> »
Example: I'm a mage, I'm in a hallway and around the corner is a security guard, so I cast my improved invisibility spell to sneak past him, now I don't want to be seen so I cast it at force 6 and gets my 6 hits I then turn the corner and try to sneak past him.

At this point the guard can.....
Potentially smell me
Potentially hear me
Potentially resist my illusion with a Intuition + logic

And you want to give the guard what is essentially another way to detect me with yet another easily made perception roll to detect magic? I honestly don't care what RAW or RAI exactly is here, because that's just plain wrong.

The bolded part is what I want to respond to.

No, that is not at all what I've been saying.  Nor is it what the rulebook says happens should a spell be "perceived".

If a sustained spell (as opposed to a spell in the moment of being cast) is indeed perceptible, it doesn't mean the spell stops working.  It doesn't mean the spell is located.  It doesn't mean the successfully perceived magic is even identified as a spell at all.

There's even room to say that if the particular perceptible thing the observer notices is that he feels an unexplained sudden chill, he might not even realize it's magic-related and look instead to the environmental control settings to see if the AC suddenly got a surge. 

If your invisible shadowrunner makes the security guard call environmental services to inquire about the air handlers, that's hardly rendering your invisibility spell useless.  If the guard assumes the heebie jeebies he just felt was the security spirit making its rounds past his post again, that's hardly rendering your invisibility spell useless.  Taking the spirit of the game and the fluff of the 1st paragraph of the rule in mind, the probable worst case scenario/fallout for your invisibility spell being "perceived" is nothing more than the guard radioing that he suspects something magic is afoot.*   There's nothing at all for a reasonable person to presume that perceiving the presence of a high force invisibility spell means the effect of the invisibility is countered by being perceived.  Let's not make what a sadistic GM might do with "perceiving a sustained invisibility spell" the default assumption for what a normal GM would do.

*= if your infiltration plan consists of nothing more than "I cast invisibility" your plan sucks.  If you're not able to cover the contingency of jamming a guard's radio communications, I don't know what to tell you other than maybe you should have some mundanes around like Deckers  (Or in this particular case, spend some nuyen on a Jammer).  Spells not being able to (reliably) replace/render moot entire archetypes like Face and Covert Ops Specialists is something I unapologetically consider to be a Good Thing for game balance.
« Last Edit: <05-28-18/1852:25> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

easl

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 52
« Reply #119 on: <05-28-18/2050:35> »
There's even room to say that if the particular perceptible thing the observer notices is that he feels an unexplained sudden chill, he might not even realize it's magic-related and look instead to the environmental control settings to see if the AC suddenly got a surge. 

While the 'dumb henchman' is a staple of adventure/fantasy/sci-fi stories, I would never play them *that* dumb.  You're saying a security guard, in a world of common magic where magical 'runners' regularly attack secure facilities, isn't going to pay attention to sensory triggers he/she associates with magic????  That seems to me to be a worse solution than the no-roll solution. I bet your *players* will never mistake that 'cold feeling' for anything other than what it is, will they?  If it's hard to interpret for the npcs, how are you going to make it equally hard to interpret for the pcs?

Another problem with the 'always roll' is that corporate defense/security mages are now in a really bad spot; if they summon a guardian spirit or sustain a detection spell, it messes with their own security guards' perception of magic.  And, again, you're basically giving the players an easy way to tell if there's a mage on the defensive side.

Quote
Let's not make what a sadistic GM might do with "perceiving a sustained invisibility spell" the default assumption for what a normal GM would do.

IMO there's nothing sadistic or even abnormal in having npcs respond to their perception rolls with the same intelligence as the pcs do. 

Quote
Spells not being able to (reliably) replace/render moot entire archetypes like Face and Covert Ops Specialists is something I unapologetically consider to be a Good Thing for game balance.

That doesn't sound to me like a 'this is RAW, we should accept it' argument. That sounds more like 'I don't personally like powerful magic and want a way to limit the ability of mages to be stealthy' argument.