[Otakusensei]

Still seems like releasing DLC the day a game comes out.  It's a really nasty looking practice that the public puts up with only because there's no way to get access to the things they love without supporting the companies that hold the IP and maintain business practices that carry the appearance of corruption.  It's nice to have you here to answer directly for the actions of CGL, but even with your clarification it's hard to figure out if this action is corruption or simply poor planning.

How is it poor planning? Having a e-book with more military gear released near a book named War! sounds like good planning to me.

To each their own, but the situation as it stands means that all that military equipment was in rough format in CGLs possession at nearly the same time at some point.  Why not just include it all in War!?  Either it's because they just couldn't bare to lose a few pages from the 110 that Bogota got, or because they wanted to hit the fans that are buying War! for the gear for another $7 bucks.  That's pretty raw to me, because as much as I love to buy every book that says Shadowrun on it (save the recent crop) I know a lot more that just buy for the crunch.  And military crunch is, well, that much more crunchy.

[ssjevot]

I don't have a problem with these extra releases.  Digital Grimoire was great, and this could be too.  War! had some problems, largely due to editing and a lack of proofreading.  I'd love to see these addressed, and errata for that and other products, and I'm being cautiously optimistic about future products.  That said there is absolutely nothing CGL could do to win over many of the people in this topic.  If they release MilTechSpec and it has all kinds of problems, then go ahead and complain about it, but it's not DLC for War!.  If it was you'd need to buy War! first, but as far as I know you don't have to, it's just an extra supplement.  I hope it's a great release and is something my group will want to use.  Only time will tell. 

I'm not going to judge MilTechSpec until the product is out and the reviews are in, and I doubt accusing CGL of being corrupt is going to improve the product in anyway.

[Starglyte]

To each their own, but the situation as it stands means that all that military equipment was in rough format in CGLs possession at nearly the same time at some point.  Why not just include it all in War!?  Either it's because they just couldn't bare to lose a few pages from the 110 that Bogota got, or because they wanted to hit the fans that are buying War! for the gear for another $7 bucks.  That's pretty raw to me, because as much as I love to buy every book that says Shadowrun on it (save the recent crop) I know a lot more that just buy for the crunch.  And military crunch is, well, that much more crunchy.

I get where you are coming from. But I view E-books as extra stuff that for what ever reason was not put into a physical book. I prefer fluff to crunch, but I won't make a call of whether more gear in WAR! would of been better at the expanse of fluff because I haven't read the book yet. Waiting for the paper version to come out before I make that judgement call.[

[Otakusensei]

Fair enough.  Put keep in mind that everything that goes in to these books comes in piecemeal from freelancers and it's ultimately on the developer what's in one book or the other.  While you don't need to buy War! to use the crunch in Milspec, you still need to buy both books to the get gear that was turned in during this time frame.  I'm just saying that can, and to me has, been taken the wrong way and reflect poorly on a company that already has a pretty sullied reputation for both release schedule and business practices.

[ssjevot]

What do you think they should do, in terms of constructive criticism.  As a company how can they improve their product to the point that would make you want to buy it?

[Otakusensei]

What do you think they should do, in terms of constructive criticism.  As a company how can they improve their product to the point that would make you want to buy it?

It's as easy as maintaining the same standards of quality and creativity that brought us SR4A.

[Dread Moores]

Still seems like releasing DLC the day a game comes out.

Well, there's a bit of a difference there. I won't presume that this would be the cause for it, but there may also be printing concerns. The extra pages found in Milspec, if included in WAR!, may have pushed the price point for WAR! beyond an acceptable amount, due to increased printing costs. So, that's a little different than the DLC example.

In regards to the initial point, I don't have problems with the Milspec release, so long as some of the same editing/proofing issues don't crop up. It wasn't material that would have been in WAR!, so I don't tend to view it as something cut and charged extra for, but something extra provided if I want it. That's just my opinion though, and not meant to reflect on other folks opinions.

[Otakusensei]

Still seems like releasing DLC the day a game comes out.

Well, there's a bit of a difference there. I won't presume that this would be the cause for it, but there may also be printing concerns. The extra pages found in Milspec, if included in WAR!, may have pushed the price point for WAR! beyond an acceptable amount, due to increased printing costs. So, that's a little different than the DLC example.

In regards to the initial point, I don't have problems with the Milspec release, so long as some of the same editing/proofing issues don't crop up. It wasn't material that would have been in WAR!, so I don't tend to view it as something cut and charged extra for, but something extra provided if I want it. That's just my opinion though, and not meant to reflect on other folks opinions.

I know that from a mechanical standpoint War! and Milspec are not required for each other.  It's more specifically like content packs for a game like The Sims.  How much of that content was ready to go at launch?  Who made the call, and was it made for a reason that wasn't a cash grab?

I'm sure there wasn't space in War! as it appears in the PDF for another 20 pages of gear.  It's just that there's so much Bogota in there, and so little general info about war I have to question the wisdom of focusing so much on the one and the motivation of leaving the other for a quickly released follow up product.

To be honest I wouldn't make such a big deal about this if there were more than 30 pages of gear that mostly covers stuff like nukes and aircraft carriers.

[ssjevot]

What do you think they should do, in terms of constructive criticism.  As a company how can they improve their product to the point that would make you want to buy it?

It's as easy as maintaining the same standards of quality and creativity that brought us SR4A.

I strongly agree with that sentiment, but even at that time we had digital releases.  You could argue 10 Gangs should be in Vice, Digital Grimoire in Street Magic and so on.  I will judge MilTechSpec as its own product, and I too strongly hope to see a return to the quality we've become accustomed to.  I honestly think it just requires some more editing and proofreading.  War! isn't as horribly flawed as some would make it seem.  In fact Sixth World Almanac was up there with Seattle 2072 and SR4A, it just was marred by errors that brought it down a little (I still desperately want sidebar errata!).  CGL writers have said they're listening, so let's wait and see what the next releases look like before we give up all hope.

[Bull]

Otaku:  I believe that the bulk of (if not all of) MilTech Spec was created by Peter Michelanka.  Peter's a big fan of riggers and toys like this, and he's also head of the eBooks line.  The stuff he's doing was always intended to be an eBook.

Bull

[Otakusensei]

What do you think they should do, in terms of constructive criticism.  As a company how can they improve their product to the point that would make you want to buy it?

It's as easy as maintaining the same standards of quality and creativity that brought us SR4A.

I strongly agree with that sentiment, but even at that time we had digital releases.  You could argue 10 Gangs should be in Vice, Digital Grimoire in Street Magic and so on.  I will judge MilTechSpec as its own product, and I too strongly hope to see a return to the quality we've become accustomed to.  I honestly think it just requires some more editing and proofreading.  War! isn't as horribly flawed as some would make it seem.  In fact Sixth World Almanac was up there with Seattle 2072 and SR4A, it just was marred by errors that brought it down a little (I still desperately want sidebar errata!).  CGL writers have said they're listening, so let's wait and see what the next releases look like before we give up all hope.

I never got a good look at SWA.  I'm really only familiar with War! because it's on Scribd.  I've heard some of the complaints, like a pretty but flawed map and poor research, but I can't personally speak to any of it.

Digital Grimoire was quite good for a digital suppliment, and did contain stuff that was conceptually around when Street Magic was released.  But no one would accuse them of holding the content back for a digital release.  That's what I'd like to see to be honest, especially with the drastically delayed release schedule CGL holds.  Something down the line to refresh the rules and liven things up.  But even if someone else was working on the material in Milspec, as Bull has said, I still question the wisdom of double dipping the crunch fans like this.

However I'll recognize I've said my peace on this and go to bed before they lock this thread to.  Night all.

[Critias]

And, for what it's worth, ebook material goes up a whole different chain of command, under different contracts, through different channels, to different emails, etc, etc, than other SR material.  For a little while I was juggling a Missions project, a "normal" SR piece, and an e-book all at once, and it required checking several different fileshares, Google groups, and that sort of thing.

It's not like MilTech Spec was material submitted for War! that was then nefariously plucked from the bosom of its pages and set aside to be a separate product.  It was a separate product from the get-go, written by different people as part of a different title.

I'm really only familiar with War! because it's on Scribd.

Oh, nice.  Leaked documents, private conversations, and project specs aren't enough, now that same person's got to host whole products for people to download without paying for.  Perfect.

[Dread Moores]

I never got a good look at SWA.  I'm really only familiar with War! because it's on Scribd.  I've heard some of the complaints, like a pretty but flawed map and poor research, but I can't personally speak to any of it.

So all of this vitriol and complaints comes about a book that you haven't read? I'm confused there, or did I misunderstand what you said?

[ssjevot]

I never got a good look at SWA.  I'm really only familiar with War! because it's on Scribd.  I've heard some of the complaints, like a pretty but flawed map and poor research, but I can't personally speak to any of it.

So all of this vitriol and complaints comes about a book that you haven't read? I'm confused there, or did I misunderstand what you said?

I think he's complaining about War! which he read without purchasing, and not Sixth World Almanac which he hasn't read at all and therefore he isn't complaining about SWA.  SWA does have a lot of errors in it, but I heard rumors of an updated paper copy that fixed some, but I haven't seen it myself, nor has any errata been released.  My book unfortunately has the side bar errors in it (basically missing two sidebars as they've had duplicate information put in them).  It's a good product overall though, just marred by some errors that could (and may have been) fixed with errata.

[Dread Moores]

I think he's complaining about War! which he read without purchasing

If that's the case, that's even more sad in my eyes.