[Critias]

We're discussing War! in the German Forums too and most of the Poster/SR-Players don't like
the Idea of sending their Runners on a "Auschwitz Dungeon Crawl " and shooting the Ghosts/Spirits of the Concentration Camps Victims.
That was not a good Idea of CGL (spoken politely) !

Hough!
Medicineman

So, honestly, did any of you have the same reaction when Shadows of Europe came out?  Then it wasn't a dungeon crawl, sure, but the ghosts of the Auschwitz victims were first presented as monstrous undead beasts that were terrorizing the countryside there, not in this section of War!.  

I'm genuinely curious, here, because I know that I, at least, never noticed that section of SoE before the current uproar over this section of War!, and I'm wondering if I'm the only one, or what other reason there is for this current indignation (when no such indignation seemed to exist when the concentration camp victims were first turned into monsters six years ago).

Is the big deal that it's a "dungeon crawl" this time around?

And just to clarify (again), if people just don't like it, that's cool, they just don't like it.  I can get that, honestly.  I guess I'm just confused why this is all of a sudden so offensive, but SoE wasn't.

[blorgh]

Is the big deal that it's a "dungeon crawl" this time around?

Probably, as that removes the modicum of respect such things should be treated. (And somewhat were in SoE, the magic books, etc.)

Those small inconsistencies to the setting that accumulate are most likely not helping either.

[Medicineman]

So, honestly, did any of you have the same reaction when Shadows of Europe came out?
I don't think so.
All I remember from it  was that Ausschwitz is a High Background Area and the Spirits (ImO a different thing than a Ghost) are roaming in the KZs ,being held in Check by a Church Order and a Mana Barrier.
I personally never played there.
And No ,as far as I remember this was never an Issue....but it is now

Is the big deal that it's a "dungeon crawl" this time around?
No ,I think its the "Kill the Victims one more Time" Idea
And this is true for me personally too.
I don't mind a Dungeoncrawl (hey I played D&D for 25 Years and I've grown into RPG by Dungeoncrawling)
  but for Me as a German...I really would'nt want to "kill" the Victims of our Past a second Time
A disgusting (or is revolting the better Word ?) Thought

one personal thing though 
contrary to Hermit from DS Forum I don't Intend to insult anybody
I'm open for Discussion

with an open Dance
Medicineman

[Grinder]

Can't you and hermit just stop insulting each other? That's annyoing as fuck.

[Mäx]

but for Me as a German...I really would'nt want to "kill" the Victims of our Past a second Time
A disgusting (or is revolting the better Word ?) Thought

Well luckily ghost in SR aren't actually people from the past, at least not according to Running Wild.

[Ultra Violet]

@Critias
Maybe a more american example as translation of what Medicinman said.

Imagining the victims of the 9/11 would become all ghost and to help the world you have to kill this "monsters" again.

Sorry for my choice of words and it isn't my intention to disrespect the victims or their Memory, but I hope that this example clear that point of discussion.

[Kot]

I agree with you on that, Medicineman. Auschwitz-Birkenau KL area is good as a danger zone around which runs can be organized: hunt the loose spirits, help maintaining the barrier, find weak spots, protect the barrier from external threats(possessed mages, BBG's, Shedim, and such) and so on. But not as a place where you run. It's just too much. Besides that's a controversial idea at best, there are two basic outcomes:
A) The whole idea behind Auschwitz-Birkenau KL will be trivialized and turned into a pointless killzone. And that's bad. Really bad. Just imagine someone doing that to any of the sites on which Native American people were murdered/herded into a reserve, where they died of sickness, starvation, and such. As a reminder - i'm living in Poland, i was born and raised here, and was reminded of the nazi's and communist russians atrocities on every step of my life. I visited Auschitz once. It's something you can't forget. Ever.
B) The game will be realistic enough to show how it was/is/will be in the Auschwitz zone. I've been there, done that, and i will tell you - that is a terribly bad idea. Emotional scars aside, it feels plain wrong afterwards. I know people who were playing rpg's on graves. That's as much wrong. I don't really know how to express myself now, as i even can't do that in polish. But it would not be a good game that people enjoyed, that i know for sure.

I know there is still the possibility to have a shadowrun game taking place in the Auschwitz zone that will take the middle road successfully, and wont trivialize the place, nor emotionally hurt anyone. But i doubt that.
So if you can, run outside. There can be enough War! just beyond the barrier.

P.S. I know i went all weepy here. But i can't really stay cool when it comes to that place.

UV: 9/11 isn't that close to what happened in Auschwitz. But yes, the emotional load US has because of it is a good way to get the picture.

[blorgh]

Well luckily ghost in SR aren't actually people from the past, at least not according to Running Wild.

They are at least assumed to be "imprints" and "echos" of the dead. So it still feels a lot like grave-dancing.

As an aside, there indeed will be "necromantic artifacts" to hunt and sell around there – all those ghost's Chains. Those are objects imbued with the Hidden Life power of the ghost tied to it and allow you to summon and enslave those ghosts of the prisoners like any Free Spirit. Combined with the heading, it adds a whole new level of wrong.

[Nomad Zophiel]

A) The whole idea behind Auschwitz-Birkenau KL will be trivialized and turned into a pointless killzone. And that's bad. Really bad. Just imagine someone doing that to any of the sites on which Native American people were murdered/herded into a reserve, where they died of sickness, starvation, and such. As a reminder - i'm living in Poland, i was born and raised here, and was reminded of the nazi's and communist russians atrocities on every step of my life. I visited Auschitz once. It's something you can't forget. Ever.

Or playing drug addiction as something that turns the victims into "monsters" controlled by an evil free plant spirit. . .oops, done that. Or treating the cartels who have currently turned Mexico into a RL war zone as. . .oh, right. Oh, or how about bunraku parlors just in case you like your human trafficking with less grey area. Exploiting children (see Children thread) seems to be about the only place the source material doesn't go. I'm not saying that the Shoa should be a setting for an adventure, far from it. On the other hand, I can see how it could be very emotionally powerful, even therapeutic to have characters do some good in and for a place so wretched. SR does offer up some very mature themes, some with a little symbolic distance and some straight up. If they're trivialized by the GM's using them, there's nothing you or I or anyone else can really do about that.

[FastJack]

Of course, you could also play it as finding alternative methods to lay the ghosts to rest. For instance, the item they discuss as an "unholy artifact". Maybe if you destroy something like that, some or all of the ghosts will find peace and disperse.

[Kot]

Nomad, nothing, besides preaching like i just did. Or you, for the matter. You've got the point better than i did, though.
So, yeah. If you want to do a Auschwitz run that would do some good, then yes, i'd say 'okay'. Just don't make any research, and let your team get through all those crazed, malicious spirits and plant the cleansing device/spirit trap, then bolt before it starts to work(or not), and get out of there in time, and without casualties. That would be a good game if done right. Heh. Seems like i overdid it again. It's good to get an outside-of-your-head perspective once in a while.

[Longshot23]

Of course, you could also play it as finding alternative methods to lay the ghosts to rest. For instance, the item they discuss as an "unholy artifact". Maybe if you destroy something like that, some or all of the ghosts will find peace and disperse.

Which has just given me an idea . . . a series of runs/missions to do with finding and using such an "unholy artifact", in competition/opposition with a group who wishes to glorify/emulate the tragedy and atrocity of Auschwitz.  It would probably get nasty.  

Alamos 20K has been off the radar for too long, or maybe Nationale Aktion are the bad guys.  And if some enterprising GM could figure a way to tie in Genom Corp in Swtizerland . . .

Pardon the choice of words, I'm really not intending any offence to anybody.

[machineiv]

So, honestly, did any of you have the same reaction when Shadows of Europe came out?  Then it wasn't a dungeon crawl, sure, but the ghosts of the Auschwitz victims were first presented as monstrous undead beasts that were terrorizing the countryside there, not in this section of War!.  

I'm genuinely curious, here, because I know that I, at least, never noticed that section of SoE before the current uproar over this section of War!, and I'm wondering if I'm the only one, or what other reason there is for this current indignation (when no such indignation seemed to exist when the concentration camp victims were first turned into monsters six years ago).

Is the big deal that it's a "dungeon crawl" this time around?

And just to clarify (again), if people just don't like it, that's cool, they just don't like it.  I can get that, honestly.  I guess I'm just confused why this is all of a sudden so offensive, but SoE wasn't.

SoE is actually where I got the idea for the section in question. I spent a good deal of time reading SoE again when I wrote what I did for War. Maybe the direction was off, but I wanted to take that, and turn it a little in another direction.

[machineiv]

A) The whole idea behind Auschwitz-Birkenau KL will be trivialized and turned into a pointless killzone. And that's bad. Really bad. Just imagine someone doing that to any of the sites on which Native American people were murdered/herded into a reserve, where they died of sickness, starvation, and such. As a reminder - i'm living in Poland, i was born and raised here, and was reminded of the nazi's and communist russians atrocities on every step of my life. I visited Auschitz once. It's something you can't forget. Ever.

My great-grandfather died at Auschwitz. I sympathize. Silly point maybe, but I had my (late) grandfather read the section in question, to see if there were any glaring problems. He said it was strange, but he knew it was not only clearly a work of fiction, but had sufficient pathos that it'd make the people playing think about what they were doing.

That said, Native Americans, in my opinion, have often received rather poor treatment in Shadowrun supplements, often bordering on offensive if not just crossing the line. So, to each their own.

[machineiv]

Of course, you could also play it as finding alternative methods to lay the ghosts to rest. For instance, the item they discuss as an "unholy artifact". Maybe if you destroy something like that, some or all of the ghosts will find peace and disperse.

I even considered specifically mentioning that. I was hoping the implication would come through. When doing SR writing, I try to avoid too obviously 'good guy' solutions. I try to err on the side of just presenting it as it is, and letting the table decide where they want to take it. That's not only a viable solution, that's absolutely how my regular table would handle it.