Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: SIlverBudda on <05-13-16/1209:51>
-
So I was reading about armor the other day in 5th edition and it mention how you get a penalty for every 2 point above your body I believe. My confusion is.. is this only when you layer armor? I ask because if I get a armored coat with 12 armor being 6 above my max body I would get a -3 penalty. Which seems strange but if I had an armored vest and a armored coat I would take the highest clothing armor rating and then get the penalty because of the extra bulk. Which seems more reasonable.
-
Which edition are you talking about?
Because in 5 you aren't encumbered by any one piece armor, no matter how high its armor value.
Encumbrance comes from adding armor pieces (those armor types with a "+" in front of the value) for every two points above your Strength value
-
Example. My Strength 6 character wears a Full Body Armor with an Armor Value of 15. He gets no penalty, since there is no + in the rating. Later, however, he grabs a Full Helmet and a Ballistic Shield (+3 and +6, respectively). Together, their bonuses exceed his Strength by 3, meaning he gets a -1 penalty to both Agility and Reaction.
-
5th edition. So only armor with a + adds the pentaly? I was thinking that after discussing it with a friend or two. But wanted to make sure. Thanks for the help. I will have a lot of questions as I read the core rule book so bear with me :-)
-
In the playtest, there was a rule for all armor, which was that you could wear armor equal to your Strength * 3 without penalty, and for every 3, or fraction thereof, more, you'd take the -1 penalty. Didn't matter if it was stacked or not, just "You can wear this much without being bogged down, more that that, you get all Staypuff wobbly."
It wasn't in the final publishing. I don't know if it was a playtest thing or intended from above or just removed at the last moment, but, I still use it for my home games.
Part of the "Make Strength actually matter" philosophy.
-
In the playtest, there was a rule for all armor, which was that you could wear armor equal to your Strength * 3 without penalty, and for every 3, or fraction thereof, more, you'd take the -1 penalty. Didn't matter if it was stacked or not, just "You can wear this much without being bogged down, more that that, you get all Staypuff wobbly."
It wasn't in the final publishing. I don't know if it was a playtest thing or intended from above or just removed at the last moment, but, I still use it for my home games.
Part of the "Make Strength actually matter" philosophy.
Not a bad houserule to keep Strength from being a dump stat AND curbing armor stacking...
-
In the playtest, there was a rule for all armor, which was that you could wear armor equal to your Strength * 3 without penalty, and for every 3, or fraction thereof, more, you'd take the -1 penalty. Didn't matter if it was stacked or not, just "You can wear this much without being bogged down, more that that, you get all Staypuff wobbly."
It wasn't in the final publishing. I don't know if it was a playtest thing or intended from above or just removed at the last moment, but, I still use it for my home games.
Part of the "Make Strength actually matter" philosophy.
Not a bad houserule to keep Strength from being a dump stat AND curbing armor stacking...
I like it, may give it a try at the table and see how it shakes out.
-
We use (Body + Strength) times 2 as our golden measure. Incidentally, it was Body x 2 in SR4, and Wakshaani mentiones Strength x 3 for SR5, so I'm pretty happy with our houserule. Even a Body 1, Strength 1 character should be able to wear a piece of armored clothing (AV6) without too steep penalties in our opinion :)
-
Part of the "Make Strength actually matter" philosophy.
There are enough + Armor options out there that Str does matter. The Monowhip Elf Sami with 2 Str vs. the Str 10 Vibrosword Dwarf build has up to 8 points in Armor differences. Full Helm, PPP stuffs, Gel Packs, Invisible Underwear (insert hilarious image of a hairy Dwarf in a Rutheium Fiber Speedo), and the assorted high fashion custom stacking options within Armor lines that are terribly defined and are either useless or Awesome depending on the GM call.
You do need to go through some lengths to get there though, and IMO, I don't know that Str matters enough in the current rule set. In the basic book there are essentially three armors that matter Armored Jacket for most Armor, Chameleon Suit for Sneaking, and Lined Coat for Concealability. No mechanical reason to ever take any of the other armors. You'd see a lot more lined coats and armored vests if some kind of Str rule for armor was used.
-
No mechanical reason to ever take any of the other armors.
No mechanical reason, true, but there are plenty of setting reasons to have a more expansive (and probably expensive, at that) wardrobe.
-
You do need to go through some lengths to get there though, and IMO, I don't know that Str matters enough in the current rule set. In the basic book there are essentially three armors that matter Armored Jacket for most Armor, Chameleon Suit for Sneaking, and Lined Coat for Concealability. No mechanical reason to ever take any of the other armors. You'd see a lot more lined coats and armored vests if some kind of Str rule for armor was used.
Yup, Armor Diversity was a big selling point, and if you ever wonder why there were so many Armored Vests, this is why: Str 3 archetypes were all over, and 9 armor was the most that they could wear without a penalty, so, vests.
For my home game, I went ahead and expanded things a bit in regards to armor, to give everyone more options. The hard data's on my other computer, but, here's a roughcut off the top of my noggin:
Armored Clothing (AV 3, cost 100$, Availability -)
While most people in the world wear ordinary clothing, some prefer a minor bit of armor for protection. These additions, such as a shoulder pad, metal kneepads, and so on, are more cosmetic than functional, but can make a difference when falling off of a scooter or getting shoved against a wall by a passer-by. Armored clothing is obvious.
Emergency Vest (AV 6, cost 500$, Availability 4)
Custom-tailored and form-fitting, the Emergency Vest is thin enough to be hidden under typical daily wear and can stop ordinary handgun fire once or twice. It's generally a last-ditch option, or a conservative one chosen to not disrupt a more fashionable appearance. Note that while it's generally hidden from view, a pat-down will always find it. (An Emergency Vest has a Concealability of 3)
Armored Coat (AV 6, cot 500$, Avilability 4)
A classic, the armored long coat is, well, a long coat, but with armored plates sewn into the lining. It's not terribly hard to detect (the weighted plates make the coat hang in a way that's easy to recognize if you're looking for it), but the big advantage is that it conceals everything else you carry. (An armored Long Coat has a Concelability of 2, but adds 2 to the concealability of whatever else you carry while wearing it.)
Armored Vest (AV 9, cost 1000$, Availability 4)
Called by many a "bulletproof vest", the armored vest is worn openly, settling over the wearer's normal clothing, and is designed to be friendly with any number of holsters, equipment hooks, and so on, spreading the mass of an equipment load out over the body. It remains the most common choice in body armor for light security guards, patrol officers, and most Shadowrunners.
Armored Jacket (AV 12, cost 2000$, Availability 8R)
Found in heavier security forces, fast-response police forces, and the military, the Armored Jacket is a heavy-duty combination of torso and arm protection.
Armored Uniform (AV 15, Cost 4000$, Availability 12R)
A heavier version of the armored jacket, complete with leg armor. Too heavy for most to use easily so rarely seen outside of riot situations, corporate heavy response teams, or military deployment.
Heavy Armor (AV 18, cost 10,000$, Availability 12F)
The ultimate in personal protection, thick pieces of modern ceramic blends, a sure sign that the wearer means business. Illegal for civilian use and found only in the most militarized police forces, it's almost exclusively found on modern battlefields.
(Helmets are +3 Armor across the board and cost a grand.)
This gave everyone some armor options, regardless of their Strength, and included a couple of sneaky options versus all of the more obvious stuff. The general person on the street doesn't wear ANY armor, and even gangers are mostly wearing armored clothes (Such as in 1st ed, where they just wore leather jackets) rather than armor jackets. It helps build the world a bit and makes people step back a bit from the heavier guns as they know few targets will need them.
But, you know, home game, YMMV, and all that.
-
No mechanical reason to ever take any of the other armors.
No mechanical reason, true, but there are plenty of setting reasons to have a more expansive (and probably expensive, at that) wardrobe.
I'm just looking at the core rulebook armors. Since the removal of concealability on Armor and the lifting of the Str limitations mechanically there isn't a difference between wearing a t-shirt and an Armored Jacket. May as well save word count and let players/GMs fluff the rest since there isn't a mechanical reason for them.
I'd rather see mechanically useful options, including things like socially upscale (or down scale) armors. Better than a 6,8,9, and 12 point variation on Armored (whatever) with no reason ever to take the lower values.
-
Agree to disagree, then, Hobbes. Mechanics aren't all, in my opinion.
-
Right but the reason the Armored Vests and the like are in the rules are because of other rules that were removed.
Think of it this way, if you had a Foci that costs the same nuyen and karma but only gave 3/4 of the dice nobody would take it. If you had a gun that did 6P and another that did 9P and they were otherwise identical you'd never take the 6P version.
If you're going to spend a paragraph of word count on a piece of gear, there should be a reason for players to take it.
Previous editions had mechanical reasons for the other armors, either concealability for legal/social reasons or a max armor you can wear based on attributes. All for houseruling such things back in btw. Max Social Limit = 15 - Armor rating for example. Slap around some Rs and Fs on the assorted armors. Whatever. Because pretty much what you see on characters is Armored Jacket, Mortimer's something or other, occasional Sleeping Tiger, rarely something else. Then a bunch of +1s and +2s from the bitz bin. Given the page count spent on Armors it seems a waste.
Your (Body + Strength) times 2 house rule tells me you don't disagree. Because you've given a mechanical reason for lower rating armors. I'm saying, that shouldn't be a house rule.
The fact is RAW Pixies and Trolls can wear the same armor. That ain't right, IMO.
-
You're misunderstanding my house rule, then, Hobbes. That's there to place limits on how much armor a character can wear before they start being encumbered, not to give a reason for an AV6 suit to exist. That's a byproduct, not the intent.
And what we disagree on is that everything has to have a singular mechanical purpose. A GM can give a character dice pool penalties to social tests for wearing an armored jacked to a fancy dinner party, or dice pool bonuses to the same character if he wore an armored executive suit instead. The Armor Value rating of the clothing in this case is not what affects the social modifiers, but rather the situation. Thus, both an armored jacket, the more concealed armored vest, and the even more concealable armored suit all have their place in the game.
These types of things are setting related, however, and cannot easily be quantified by game mechanics. There are mechanical results (dice pool modifiers) but they have little or no relation to the combat game mechanics.
So, as I said, agree to disagree; I fully believe the gear in the core rule book have plenty of reasons to exist, and at my table those social modifiers are used for precisely these kinds of situations.
-
Just to add another point some people want a specific armor regardless of AV. I have a PC who wants the Long coat no matter what. Number wise is doesn't make sense but it is what they do myself included.