Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Csjarrat on <10-16-12/0840:17>
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how do gents, looking at laser weaponry at the moment and trying to figure out whether its actually worth it.
so far i've come up with:
PRO
powerful: does plenty of damage
penetrating: half impact armour only to absorb damage is good!
steady: no recoil
CON
pricey: high cost, offset a bit by not needing any RC mods.
forbidden: dont get caught with one!
hungry: use a stack of 'ammo'
vulnerable: thermal smoke is gonna ruin your day
misc: have to use restricted gear for guns and ammo packs + exotic skills to use them @ chargen.
so it looks like something you have to build a char around really, have i missed anything?
anyone using laser weaps regularly? what do you think?
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I've never really been a fan of lasers for those reasons. realistically, the classics are far more reliable and less of a signature. switch APDS or the like if you need to down something heavy. Also, lasers can't be switched to non-lethal by simply changing the clip.
Personally, I'd only consider using them for a high-end Knight-Errant team, or mounted on a vehicle and using gunnery. As a runner there are better options available cheaper.
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And doesn't their damage go down on long ranges...?
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I tend to avoid exotic weapons of all stripes for two reasons.
1) Since they're exotic, they make you stand out a helluvalot more than if you're another guy with a Predator.
2) If you use a Predator and are disarmed, you can pick up any pistol and be good. If you lose your expensive exotic weapon, you can't just pick up another one.
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lasers are pretty awesome vs spirits (WHO YOU 'GONNA CALL?)) due to the half armor. I wouldn't consider them for starting gear, but in the long run the investment in the weapon and the skill (karma or skillsoft) seem a good addition to round up a weapons expert.
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Actually, instead of using the exotic skill, I'd probably mount them on a drone or vehicle, since that would tie into the gunnery skill, or be used with a targeting autosoft.
Heh. Actually, a Reaper with a laser, a machine gun, and two bombs would be a nasty foe. I like it...
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Would an articulated weapon arm take gunnery? I'm thinking of Mr. Ork with heavy milspec armor. That kinda reminds me of Predator.
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What you do is give it a pilot rating for the smartgun and let it fire itself at targets like an autonomous drone. ;D
Or, in extremely nasty cases, wear yourself a tricked out Iron Will suit. I remember seeing a build a long time ago for one of those that had a mounted Vindicator and Grenade Launcher on that fired on their own.
If you plan it out right a Drone with Pilot 6, Smartgun (+2), Targetting 4, and a Rating 4 Tacnet running will be throwing 16 dice to shoot itself/it's weapons. It's pretty easy to get enough channels for the drone to be a member of a tactical net too.
I agree with most of the users though. Lasers are best when mounted and in campaigns with a nice funding budget.
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An Underbarrel Laser would make a darn Good Back Up Weapon (especially to an Enfield AS 7 or any other Shotgun)
with a Back Up Dance
Medicineman
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Lasers suck. They have one niche, which is that the laser pistol is the best concealable weapon you can get for taking out very heavily armored vehicles - but they have to be very heavily armored (-half AP is only better than just taking a Super Warhawk and putting in APDS if the target has 13 or more armor (6P/-5 versus 5P/-half means both need 3 net hits at that point). The heavier lasers are worse than a Gauss Rifle in every way except for your ability to shout PEW PEW while using them.
I don't think one niche of usefulness justifies taking an entire skill. Also, you can't specialize, so you're down 2 dice right there. The only time I would bother with a laser is on a Skillwires user with enough money to make blowing the nuyen for the skillsoft and a laser pistol worth the niche.
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great stuff, glad i didnt miss anything. ta!
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Hmm. A Technomancer with the biowire echo could get a hacked version of the skillsoft (or 'rent' it from Singularity), and then emulate it as a complex form...
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The only laser I want is a targeting beacon for a Thor station. 8)
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Except you would only get one shot with that before the whole Corporate Court decides to hunt your ass down, Red. They do NOT take kindly to people playing with orbital bombardment weapons. Unless they're the ones playing around.
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Yeah, I know that. One can dream though.
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Why use that THOR station? Make your own THOR shot, by summoning a powerful Air spirit, and handing him that tungsten rod to hurl with all his might from as high as he can. You could give him a hand by assigning a Guidance spirit as a partner, to ensure accuracy.
Who said high-tech is better than magic?
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Actually, instead of using the exotic skill, I'd probably mount them on a drone or vehicle, since that would tie into the gunnery skill, or be used with a targeting autosoft.
Heh. Actually, a Reaper with a laser, a machine gun, and two bombs would be a nasty foe. I like it...
And I believe that in a vehicle or drone, you can tie the laser into the power supply for the vehicle/drone instead of having to buy the expensive (and ridiculously high availability) power packs.
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I think the easiest way to make lasers much more useful is to simply switch them to use the pistols, long arms, and heavy weapons skills respectively, as there's no real need or logical reason to give them their own skill.
I'd also consider improving (possibly doubling) the bonus that they get from using laser sights and smartgun systems, since there's no longer a need to calculate lead or bullet drop; where you're pointing is where you're hitting.
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I think the easiest way to make lasers much more useful is to simply switch them to use the pistols, long arms, and heavy weapons skills respectively, as there's no real need or logical reason to give them their own skill.
I'd also consider improving (possibly doubling) the bonus that they get from using laser sights and smartgun systems, since there's no longer a need to calculate lead or bullet drop; where you're pointing is where you're hitting.
I don't think there's any reason to double smartgun bonuses, bullet drop, windage, and the like are already computed by the smartgun system
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I think the easiest way to make lasers much more useful is to simply switch them to use the pistols, long arms, and heavy weapons skills respectively, as there's no real need or logical reason to give them their own skill.
I'd also consider improving (possibly doubling) the bonus that they get from using laser sights and smartgun systems, since there's no longer a need to calculate lead or bullet drop; where you're pointing is where you're hitting.
I don't think there's any reason to double smartgun bonuses, bullet drop, windage, and the like are already computed by the smartgun system
True, but that just reinforces the argument for doubling Red-Dot and Laser Sights from +1 to +2. After all, for a laser "here's a straight line, point it in the right direction" is pretty much everything a Smartgun would do for you anyway.
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True, but that just reinforces the argument for doubling Red-Dot and Laser Sights from +1 to +2. After all, for a laser "here's a straight line, point it in the right direction" is pretty much everything a Smartgun would do for you anyway.
Pretty much. Aside from controlling the gun with the Smartlink. Or that camera. Or calculating the point of impact based on environmental conditions.
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True, but that just reinforces the argument for doubling Red-Dot and Laser Sights from +1 to +2. After all, for a laser "here's a straight line, point it in the right direction" is pretty much everything a Smartgun would do for you anyway.
Pretty much. Aside from controlling the gun with the Smartlink. Or that camera. Or calculating the point of impact based on environmental conditions.
I mean that, for a laser weapon the point of impact is going to change a miniscule amount from "a straight line." Yeah, you don't get other cool Smartgun bonuses, but aiming a maser at someone should be pretty darn straight-forward.
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I mean that, for a laser weapon the point of impact is going to change a miniscule amount from "a straight line.
Plus, however it's path does change, the laser sight would deflect in exactly the same manner. :3
And I'd say double the smartgun because even for the computer, there's a fair amount of estimation and 'guessing' when accounting for windage travel time, trying to properly lead a moving target, etc. With a laser weapon, whatever's dead-center in the little camera's view is what you're hitting.
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The major advantage of lasers is the lack of ammunition needed for them. Especially at installations that have a geothermal tap for electricity. ;D
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The major advantage of lasers is the lack of ammunition needed for them. Especially at installations that have a geothermal tap for electricity. ;D
Lol, lets see you get that into the back of your jackrabbit then :-)
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The major advantage of lasers is the lack of ammunition needed for them. Especially at installations that have a geothermal tap for electricity. ;D
Lol, lets see you get that into the back of your jackrabbit then :-)
It took a lot of effort, and to be honest I'm not sure the result can still be called a jackrabbit, but I did manage that.
Well, technically it was a fusion cell and not a geothermal tap, but still...
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If you have a jackrabbit, you already have a power source to tap from.
-k
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Hmm. A vehicle or ground drone with Gridlink (and the overide, natch) would basically have unlimited ammo for a laser weapon as long as it is in gridlink supported areas...
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Great, laser-weapon supported road rage.
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You say that like its a bad thing.
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And I'd say double the smartgun because even for the computer, there's a fair amount of estimation and 'guessing' when accounting for windage travel time, trying to properly lead a moving target, etc. With a laser weapon, whatever's dead-center in the little camera's view is what you're hitting.
I agree the laser sight/red dot sight should be doubled, but a lot of modern targeting systems take care of most of those issues by using an impact box rather than actual crosshairs. You shot will land somewhere in the box rather than precisely on point X and hitting a target is a matter of making sure the whole box is contained within target. Windage and travel time arn't really guess work, they are just a matter of physics. Something that a processor in the smartgun is going to have no issue with. The only true guesswork would be target movement (hence the targeting box).
The point I'm trying to get at is that knowing exactly where the laser is going to hit (from the laser sight/Red Dot Sight) shouldn't be any different than knowing exactly where the laser is going to hit (from a smartgun). It's the exact same information in this case. Since you don't have to lead the target, movement isn't really an factor the smartgun would help with at all. So both modifiers should be the same.
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The biggest difference is the interface. Smartgun systems are a lot more user friendly first of all. You don't have to hold it in a certain possession to aim, giving you a whole range of flexibility while aiming that a normal sight just couldn't offer. As far as the laser sight goes, and I believe someone mentioned this, but laser sights can be hard to see, especially when you're in a whirling combat, or it's really bright out. The laser sight is best used as a way to augment use of a sight already there.
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There is guesswork in estimating windage since unless you've got a lovely field of grass to shoot over you're not gonna get the wind pattern all the way to the target. In an urban environment you've got windage at your location, maybe windage at your targets' location since you're looking that way and if you're super good at multitasking you can guesstimate what the wind is like to the target.
This all assumes that the area has flags and loose clothing to help you out. A computer is just gonna have windage at the shooters' locale.
On topic, lasguns are great tools for GMs to show the PCs that they've hit the big leagues in a bad (read: awesome) way. They're also good for messy, brutal takedowns if your GM prefers the physics interpretation of pulse laser fire versus the movie version.
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On topic, lasguns are great tools for GMs to show the PCs that they've hit the big leagues in a bad (read: awesome) way. They're also good for messy, brutal takedowns if your GM prefers the physics interpretation of pulse laser fire versus the movie version.
I'd say it's also fun if they're causing a big ruckus with some gangers, (or some other relatively weak group) and one of their prime runners shows up with a laser. Then the PC's are going- "WTF!? Where did he get that from?" You can also bet he's going to geek that caster mighty fast, especially if his tradition is Psionics and his name is Tetsuo. Then he's just asking to get shot with a laser.
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On topic, lasguns are great tools for GMs to show the PCs that they've hit the big leagues in a bad (read: awesome) way. They're also good for messy, brutal takedowns if your GM prefers the physics interpretation of pulse laser fire versus the movie version.
I'd say it's also fun if they're causing a big ruckus with some gangers, (or some other relatively weak group) and one of their prime runners shows up with a laser. Then the PC's are going- "WTF!? Where did he get that from?" You can also bet he's going to geek that caster mighty fast, especially if his tradition is Psionics and his name is Tetsuo. Then he's just asking to get shot with a laser.
Lol, I'm gonna guess half the readers here miss that reference :P
Great movie though
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On topic, lasguns are great tools for GMs to show the PCs that they've hit the big leagues in a bad (read: awesome) way. They're also good for messy, brutal takedowns if your GM prefers the physics interpretation of pulse laser fire versus the movie version.
I'd say it's also fun if they're causing a big ruckus with some gangers, (or some other relatively weak group) and one of their prime runners shows up with a laser. Then the PC's are going- "WTF!? Where did he get that from?" You can also bet he's going to geek that caster mighty fast, especially if his tradition is Psionics and his name is Tetsuo. Then he's just asking to get shot with a laser.
Lol, I'm gonna guess half the readers here miss that reference :P
Great movie though
And books. ;)
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Is it Akira?
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There is guesswork in estimating windage since unless you've got a lovely field of grass to shoot over you're not gonna get the wind pattern all the way to the target. In an urban environment you've got windage at your location, maybe windage at your targets' location since you're looking that way and if you're super good at multitasking you can guesstimate what the wind is like to the target.
This all assumes that the area has flags and loose clothing to help you out. A computer is just gonna have windage at the shooters' locale.
They've got programs now for tracking severe weather effects that track windage patterns from point A (the sensor) to point Z (limit of the sensor's range) and calculate the current conditions based off of results. They take in everything from reading surrounding movement (to which there is almost always something to gauge by from flags to power lines) to taking temperature readings from external surfaces to determine the affect of the wind on that surace). The military is already looking into applications for these programs, so I can't see them not being part of the ballistic processor of the smartgun.
Even without computer aid, basic windage has been taught to military snipers for a very long time and is more about math and quickly being able to react to changes than guesswork. A perceptive person can nearly always find something to gauge wind by.
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They've got programs now for tracking severe weather effects that track windage patterns from point A (the sensor) to point Z (limit of the sensor's range) and calculate the current conditions based off of results. They take in everything from reading surrounding movement (to which there is almost always something to gauge by from flags to power lines) to taking temperature readings from external surfaces to determine the affect of the wind on that surace). The military is already looking into applications for these programs, so I can't see them not being part of the ballistic processor of the smartgun.
Even without computer aid, basic windage has been taught to military snipers for a very long time and is more about math and quickly being able to react to changes than guesswork. A perceptive person can nearly always find something to gauge wind by.
Are you thinking of doppler weather radar? Cause that uses radar to pick up the movement of water droplets in clouds and the like. SR4A says a smartgun has a small camera and a laser rangefinder.
Also, long range shooting is definitely about guesswork, knowing your rifle, and knowledge of your sights wind values. Breaking out the calculator and carrying the 2 doesn't really have a place in the mountains of Afghanistan. Craig Harrison, current holder for longest sniper shot, took 7 rounds to range in a target in an environment with "no wind, mild weather, clear visibility", it was basically the perfect situation. FOR A LASER RIFLE
Edit: Trying to stay on topic here.
I may start adding negative dice mods for wind in long-ranged shootouts, maybe less if the weapon wouldn't reasonably be affected by wind.
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I may start adding negative dice mods for wind in long-ranged shootouts, maybe less if the weapon wouldn't reasonably be affected by wind.
IMO, a pointless additional penalty which is already accommodated in the normal penalties for range.
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I may start adding negative dice mods for wind in long-ranged shootouts, maybe less if the weapon wouldn't reasonably be affected by wind.
IMO, a pointless additional penalty which is already accommodated in the normal penalties for range.
Agreed; Extreme Range is already at a -6 for a reason.
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A range penalty that is completely negated by aiming, taking up a simple action and doable with either sights with zoom functionality OR zoom eyeballs.
The range penalty is purely based on the distance to target NOT environmental conditions.
SR4A: pg.150
I think I'll give it a shot since one of my players built Bob Lee Swagger.
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Are you thinking of doppler weather radar? Cause that uses radar to pick up the movement of water droplets in clouds and the like. SR4A says a smartgun has a small camera and a laser rangefinder.
No, if I were I would have said radar. It is in fact a program that takes in visual data (and thermal data) and monitors changes to make calculations on sight. It is of more use to engineers really than weather personnel as it is more telling of weather patterns that are going to cause stress on buildings, signs, hanging lines, etc. Doubly so in cities where the wind travels through alleys between the large buildings.
Also, long range shooting is definitely about guesswork, knowing your rifle, and knowledge of your sights wind values. Breaking out the calculator and carrying the 2 doesn't really have a place in the mountains of Afghanistan. Craig Harrison, current holder for longest sniper shot, took 7 rounds to range in a target in an environment with "no wind, mild weather, clear visibility", it was basically the perfect situation. FOR A LASER RIFLE
Knowing your rifle. Check. Knowing your sights. Check. Knowing the ballistics of the ammunition you are using. Check. No you don't use a calculator, that takes too much time. Most military snipers have a paper taped to their stock with drop rates per dot (on the mildot scope) and windage calculations to quickly adjust how far to adjust for wind. Every one is trained to be able to do this on the fly, because it is extremely important. In addition, the spotter is the one that normally does the calculations so that the shooter can keep concentration on maintaining visual on the target. It is all physics and perception. The smartlink doesn't need 7 shots to range in the target, because it's feeding off of data from thousands of shots under that profile and taking in data (through the camera) to calculate windage. It's got the bullet weight, range to target (range finder), camera footage for windage, temperature of the barrel, everything it needs to use simple physics and calculate the exact impact box for the round.
Now, a human might not be able to notice a change in conditions in some circumstances, but a computer can notice changes faster than the human and can calculate multiple data feeds at the same time much quicker. Even knowing temp differences between walls not in the wind path and walls against the wind helps determine wind speed and direction. Computers are better at this than a human, and will only get more and more so. The smartlink should be able to do this with no issue whatsoever. In fact, it has to in order to maintain it's credibility.
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The only laser I want is a targeting beacon for a Thor station. 8)
"I hacked the Thor station, once...."
-Last Will and Testament of a WizKid