[Decade Rider]

If you read any of the fluff/flavor stories in your rules books youll learn that yes transhumanity is all over 2072 but that dosent mean some everyone on the planet is obligated to have wares. Somtimes its very rewarding to have a character who didnt spent 50 BP on gear wich can handle or even thrive on situtation because of good thinking/rp..giving your character weak area in there build due to background makes them feel more alive to me and less then a  big pile of numbers.

Now I aint saying you cant have fun if you dont have weak area im just saying that this runner from the middle east who "technically" dont have as easy an access to Biowares shouldnt be deemed a weak character that dosent take advantage of the rules in his favor. I was looking at some suggestions people made to some character iv put out and it appear these people dont understand that i dont judge that some teen college girl with some suped up comlink would feel "weird" to have stuff like tons of armor and a high agility. Again when im making my characters i see them as person asn ask myself if they would or not make some decision about there progression. Not some big pile of number that "needs" to be improved cause the rules "allow" it It makes em more 3 dimensional

[foolofsound]

Decade, I agree with basically everything you said; never argued against it. What I am saying is that a character should be more than competent at their core role, else you are going to either going to have players stepping on each others toes (Mage nukes everything with stunballs before the supposed combat character takes down one, since he can't hit anything with his burst fire/called shots). Basically, I feel that games run best if each character has at least one field that they are noticeably better at than every other character in the group, and more than the other can easily get (if most of your party as 7-9 shooting dice, your street sam better have 12-14, minimum). If the other characters fight as well or nearly as well as the supposed street sam, then what is the point of the street sam?

Of course characters can and should have weaknesses that come up in gameplay; the weakness should never by what is supposedly your main skill set, however. A Street Sam should never be weak at combat, or else he isn't a street sam.

Yes, not everyone has wares in 2072, but most people do (>50%, with most of the people lacking wares being the truly destitute), and I can only imagine that virtually everyone in a high-stakes corpsec job (ie policing) has at least some. Probably not Wired Reflexes, at least on beat cops, but instead things like Attention Coprocessors, Ultrasound Sensors, Biomonitors, Cybereyes/Ears, or maybe some low rating Muscle Replacement.

Yes, some people create piles of numbers rather than characters, but this is not the same process as optimizing a character (well, depending on the level of optimization). It is absolutely possible to create a skilled, even an expert character that still has RP potential, personality, and some degree of realism. Under the BP system this isn't perfect, since you can't give characters all of the skills that they should logically have. This is unfortunate mechanics-wise, but hardly cripples RP.

All of that said, I do believe that unaugmented mundanes were not really meant to be played as Shadowrunners, and I feel that this fits the core themes of the game perfectly. Even if you have a character from the middle east and don't want to give him high end wares, you can still give him things like crappy, illegal, secondhand cyberlimbs (which are a few generations old, and very common virtually anywhere). You have to make sacrifices to run the shadows; your body may be part of that.

[grindoctor]

Hoi! Iam new to this forum, so don't rip me apart 
I am sure this has been asked before, but my Search-Fu is not SOTA :

Is there an official statement from Cataclyst about electrical damage?

More specific: Do netto hits increase Taser or Stick-n-Shock damage? Or do they not? Is there something specific in the rule books which I might have missed (in this case, please post page references)?

I don't want to start a debate  , just want to know, if RAW aplies to this topic (either way)? Or -if not - a correcting/informing post/errata from Cataclyst somewhere?

This has caused some heated discussions among SR-players, so an official clarification would be nice.

Thanks in advance!

[foolofsound]

Net hits on electrical melee attacks increase damage. On ranged attacks they do not, though the player may call shots, use burst fire, ect.

[Decade Rider]

How about electric spells?

[grindoctor]

@foolofsound: Thanks for a fast reply! This is just what I thought. But: Where is this explicitely stated -> no damage increase due to netto hits in ranged combat. I need something official here (reference to book w/page, pdf w/page, errata, official post) for my querulent player 

@Decade rider: Electrics  spells do increase as the netto hits represent the energy in the spell. And: I read nothing else.

[foolofsound]

How about electric spells?

Yes, base damage is always (net hits+force) on combat spells.

Where is this explicitely stated -> no damage increase due to netto hits in ranged combat.

It isn't, however melee attacks explicitly state that there is a damage increase due to net hits, while ranged attacks do not. Considering that ranged attacks have other ways of increasing their damage (burst fire, called shots) this is almost certainly intentional.

[acolyte99]

I don't think, that is correct. Net hits do add to damage in all combat (except if explicitly mentioned that it doesn't).

Take a look a page 149 "Resolving Combat". In the first paragraph it says that all combat is resolved in essentially the same manner and it even tells us the several forms of combat and on which page they are further described.
It then goes on to describe how combat is resolved in general and in step 4 "compare armor" it tells us to add net hits to base damage.

After that descriptions of the specifics of ranged (page 150) and melee (page 156) are described and they both do not tell us anything about not to use the general rules of combat in regard to net hits.
I couldn't find a place where in the description of melee it is explicitly mentioned to add net hits. It is mentioned in the general resolving of all combat.

[grindoctor]

I am aware of that netto hits increase damage also for ranged attacks, but is electrical damage an exception here? And if so, is there some official clarification on that somewhere?

[WellsIDidIt]

Unless specifically state otherwise, net hits always add to damage. To my knowledge, nothing states that tasers/stick-n-shocks/lightning guns of doom don't get to add net hits to damage, so they do.

If it were intentional for them not to, it would be intentionally stated that they do not.

"Cybernetic modification is commonplace in 2072. Bodyshops offering minor procedures can  be found in every strip mall, and recent advances in cybernetics have brought down the price of once-costly procedures, making cyberware even more readily available to the masses. Even the poor might have cybernetic vision, hearing enhancements, or a datajack." -SR4A p338.

What are minor  procedures? Hearing/vision enhancements? Datajacks?

"Augmentation is now par for the course in many job markets, from office execs and media snoops to military types and construction workers. Skilled labor can now be bought for the price of a set of skillwires and some software." -Augmentation p17

Yes, skillwires are commonplace. Max cost of 10k.

"Except for the Fast Response Teams, the officers are generally lightly augmented,  proficient with firearms, and have passed a six-month training course. More and more of their officers have skillwires, to allow for broader deployment opportunities, and their six-month training period has been augmented with the liberal use of knowsofts and linguasofts for their street patrols." -Vice p179, on Lone Star

Lightly Augmented and skillwires. Check.

Again, Lone Star has not been known for waring out their officers. Sure, a light mod for thermal vision, maybe some professional grade skillwires (6k). Minor tweaks. All a far cry away from anything resembling combat implants. There combat units are another story FRTs should be equivalent to the FBI units from Ghost Cartels, but players have gone and slotted the job if they're having to deal with FRTs.

Wolverine is a different case entirely from Lone Star. Wolverine patrols in Full Body Armor at a minimum and tends to use shock and awe tactics for controlling gangs and other criminal elements. They do everything they can to get people to take on augmentations, then they basically own the officer for five years (takes that long for the loan forgiveness to kick in from the augmentations).

Light augmentations are everywhere in 2072, but heavy duty augmentation like what runner use, even staples like wired reflexes, muscle toner, and muscle aug are not common enough to be considered a given for standard police officers. After all, the Lonestar officer's job in case of coming into a firefight against people with combat augmentations is to call in backup take cover, and maintain visual if possible.

Bottom line for most corps is that most augmentations can be easily replaced by using other tech that is able to be transferred between employees much easier (and cleaner) than ware. Instead of eye mods, glasses and/or contacts, or even a helmet HUD. Instead of an internal biomonitor, one attached to the commlink that is integral to their patrol vest. Instead of wired reflexes, an auto-injector loaded with Jazz. Instead of a datajack, trodes.

Skillwires are, admittedly, one of the elements that cannot be easily replaced with other tech, and that's why they are found in abundance with corp employees. Between their cheap cost and the cheap investment (the company really only needs one program coded that it can then copy across all it's employees), it's a perfect deal, but it doesn't really help in combat application much

Yes, some people create piles of numbers rather than characters, but this is not the same process as optimizing a character (well, depending on the level of optimization). It is absolutely possible to create a skilled, even an expert character that still has RP potential, personality, and some degree of realism. Under the BP system this isn't perfect, since you can't give characters all of the skills that they should logically have. This is unfortunate mechanics-wise, but hardly cripples RP.

The point that gets often overlooked that was being made is that making a character with intentionally not-optimized characteristics due to RP is just as valid a way to make characters, and just as common. Some people design characters by the numbers and other people design characters by what the numbers mean. If your character has barely professional training with firearm then there really isn't any reason for you to have a Firearms over 3 RP wise, mechanically sure, it's a good deal to take it to four, it's not that many BP out of your allotted 4, it's easy to change the concept to fit with a higher level of training, but if you stick with the RP description of just professional, then leaving it at 3 is just as valid of a decision. A character throwing 10 dice at shooting is still better than an average human with elite skills and on par with an average human with legendary skills.

[Medicineman]

I am aware of that netto hits increase damage also for ranged attacks, but is electrical damage an exception here? And if so, is there some official clarification on that somewhere?

No its not.
by RAW Net Hits always add to the Base Damage of Weapons (even if its Fire, Electricity or whatnot) no matter if its Melee or Firearms
But a lot of german Groups I know think that S&S Ammo is imbalanced and some of these use a houserule that Net Hits DON'T add to the Damage of S&S Ammo.
Even 2 of my 3 own Groups use them

with a Housedance
Medicineman

[foolofsound]

I don't think, that is correct. Net hits do add to damage in all combat (except if explicitly mentioned that it doesn't).

Looks like you're correct, though that makes melee combat even less useful compared to ranged.

Wells:

Yes, not everyone has wares in 2072, but most people do (>50%, with most of the people lacking wares being the truly destitute), and I can only imagine that virtually everyone in a high-stakes corpsec job (ie policing) has at least some. Probably not Wired Reflexes, at least on beat cops, but instead things like Attention Coprocessors, Ultrasound Sensors, Biomonitors, Cybereyes/Ears, or maybe some low rating Muscle Replacement.

Yes, beat cops use Jazz to gain extra Init Passes; never said they didn't. Beat cops (and corp security) should not be decked out for war; thats what they have SWAT/Paramilitary units for. However, beat cops are (according to the fluff) better equipped than the SR4A books makes them out to be. They should be tough enough to engage dangerous criminals long enough to bring in backup.

The point that gets often overlooked that was being made is that making a character with intentionally not-optimized characteristics due to RP is just as valid a way to make characters, and just as common. Some people design characters by the numbers and other people design characters by what the numbers mean. If your character has barely professional training with firearm then there really isn't any reason for you to have a Firearms over 3 RP wise, mechanically sure, it's a good deal to take it to four, it's not that many BP out of your allotted 4, it's easy to change the concept to fit with a higher level of training, but if you stick with the RP description of just professional, then leaving it at 3 is just as valid of a decision. A character throwing 10 dice at shooting is still better than an average human with elite skills and on par with an average human with legendary skills.

All I'm really trying to say is, if your character cannot mechanically do his job well, you invite several problems. First, you risk becoming redundant as other characters have to pick up your mechanical slack. Second, this opens the question of "RP-wise, why are these characters continuing to split their pay with a redundant (or incompetent) teammate?". Third, it means that the GM has to tailor down challenges in order to accommodate the party (if your B&E guy only has 10ish dice to hardware and infiltration, he's going to have a hard time getting past the RAW security systems), which I, having GMed several different systems, find is harder than tailoring up challenges. If your group and GM is happy with this, that's wonderful, but I find that, as both a player and GM, most groups expect characters to be at least fairly capable at their primary function (No INT 12 wizards, please). In my experience, both players and GMs resent dead weight, and most GMs expect characters to be mechanically skilled by the standards of the system used.
Like I said, some groups/GMs run their games differently, but when I try to give advice, I give advice based on my "standard" group experience.

[Noble Drake]

All I'm really trying to say is, if your character cannot mechanically do his job well, you invite several problems.

And all I am really trying to say is that your definition of "mechanically do his job well," is higher than my definition of the same phrase.

You believe that a character whose job is to shoot people needs to have more than 8 dice to do that job "well", and I firmly disagree. 8 dice gets damn near everything a runner would normally be shooting at shot, unless negative factors like cover and range are involved - then we end up with a genre appropriate shoot-out rather than a 1 combat pass 1-shot-1-kill fest.

[grindoctor]

I am aware of that netto hits increase damage also for ranged attacks, but is electrical damage an exception here? And if so, is there some official clarification on that somewhere?

No its not.
by RAW Net Hits always add to the Base Damage of Weapons (even if its Fire, Electricity or whatnot) no matter if its Melee or Firearms
But a lot of german Groups I know think that S&S Ammo is imbalanced and some of these use a houserule that Net Hits DON'T add to the Damage of S&S Ammo.
Even 2 of my 3 own Groups use them

Medicineman

Thanks Medizinmann , now I know where I got this from, the SR-Nexus allright!

[Medicineman]

most probably

with a short Dance
Medicineman