[KraakenDazs]

I'll concede the point, true, buuut at the same time, nuyen are not an inexhaustible infinite ressource as well, it can be very well controlled by the GM to a fair extent. It's an illusory, infinite resource because in the point of view of a game, nuyen can be found anywhere and not limited , system wise.

The limited amount of role, that, granted, is also downfall. But they make fair riggers, so it's not all hopeless...just..type-casted.

Sacrificing a point of resonance can also become a good idea, like a mage sometimes ends ups having to sacrifice some essence. And with one pt. of ware, you can easily occupy different roles.
Use all that nuyen you dont need for an high level skillwire system and chipjack, and you can be a decent backup face if your charisma is pretty high. Add some high quality Pheromones, you can roll 18 dices for zero karma investment (for an elven technomancers, for example).

You can even be decker AND technomancer and simply pick and choose what style is best suited to the task everytime. (A bit redundant, i'll agree, but once your technopowers outclass your decking, sell all that overpriced drek, get yourself some cyberlimbs with high attributes and armor  and go to town as a secondary samurai. It's a bit of a rule abuse, but 2 bulky cyberhands, and 2 cyberfeet can get you 12 extra armor, and a weapon use roll of 9-10 (agi)+ weapon skills (skillwires come back as a useful tool, or even hardwires for cheaper investment). AND fit into a single point of essence if you're using alphaware and biocompatibility. Regular cyber too if you simply dont take skillwires.

[Whiskeyjack]

Eh the point where a TM outclasses a decker is really hard to pin down especially given how programs work and for decker upgrades karma to nuyen is also a thing. In a game where a TM can outstrip a decker you do have to assume reasonable money rewards as well for the archetypes that advance with gear. Else your premise is inherently lopsided and flawed.

[KraakenDazs]

I wouldn't go as far as lopsided and flawed, but i don't also assume there aren't any "kinks" in the defense's proverbial armor, which this whole discussion is about. (And i've stated only surface knowledge of technos, so i might entirely be wrong, but some digging is showing me some potentially advantageous sides to the TMs)

In Missions for example, where there is the houserule of working for the people is in effect, i do see some correlations that benefit the TMs.

A rigger-technomancer, for example, will spend 3 submersions to get a control rig 3. Whereas a rigger will spend 208 000 and 3 points of essence ( actually, from 156 000 and 3.75 essence to 520 000 nuyen and 1.5 essence) for that capacity.

At basic level, it's a 104 karma equivalency, 56 more than needed if those are his first 3 submersion grades  (And still competitive up until submersion grade 7-8-9).
 
At delta levels, that's 260 karma worth of nuyen and that can mean a fair amount of submersion grades and Resonance improvement. Worth the 5 initial submesion grades AND a nearly 5 points increase in the Resonance attribute, making him or her a better hacker at the same time, AND better at Fade resistance.

Again, however, it's a single, narrow example not meant to represent technomancers as a whole. But we're already providing examples as to how they can compete with other roles and not just be a sprite compiler. And true, riggers might never invest in a rig 5 as there are some incredible amounts of "better things" to get essence wise and nuyen wise. But even Rig 1 and 2 are competitive, karma-to-nuyen wise, with no essence cost.

[Herr Brackhaus]

While that might be true in an isolated sandbox, KraakenDazs, don't forget that Technomancers with an Echo-based Control Rig cannot use RCCs to control his drones and jump into them with his Living Persona. All the Karma efficiency in the world doesn't make up for the lack of such a crucial piece of tech, unless you're purely focusing on driving or piloting a single vehicle, in which case, you're probably an NPC and not a PC.

[Mirikon]

And let's not forget that, even with three levels of Submersion to get Control Rig 3, the TM will STILL have no way to secure his drones other than jumping in or putting sprites in each one, because he won't be able to form a PAN. Meaning your drones are basically wide open for the other side to use against you.

Karma efficiency only matters when you don't completely fail at your job.

[FST_Gemstar]

KraakenDazs:

Getting nice 'ware without the essence cost is definitely a perk.

It's also not an awful deal getting the equivalent of a Pain Editor for 0 Essence at 30ish karma.

I agree that while technomancers start off slower, they can have a fun progression down submersion lane seeing their power increase at a nice rate during game time. You do have to plan builds pretty far out to make this happen.


However,

You can build a very functional rigger out of character generation that is a skilled, capable, geared up rigger that could also take on a secondary role.

Out of character generation, you can build a technomancer that is a functional wheelman but can't do much else in the meat. They have to find ways to be useful enough get the karma to even submerge a few times to get to the rigging capacity of a starting rigger. Even if they get a control rig 3, you'd need a fourth submersion to get skinlink to get direct connect to your device. Then a 5th submerions for a Pain Editor. That's pushing about 100 karma after character generation. It's pretty cool, and you can probably buy some cool 'ware/gear along the way and sure the technomancer can probably get a fair sprite dice pool bump to driving/gunnery along the way too to help.

But a starting mundane rigger who is already geared up and skilled also has a 100 karma and lots of nuyen to spend. They can be buying some nice 'ware/gear and diversifying their skills while the submersion 5 technomancer is still dog food out of their van.  Also, as Whiskeyjack said, not of a lot of characters/campaigns make it even this far.

I'm not saying which is better or more fun. I definitely champion technomancers as they are. I think they are fun to build and play. i also like Techno-riggers a lot. There is just a lot of prejudice for technomancers playing outside hacker roles, even as riggers. There is also a lot of prejudice against sprite dependency (which I think just goes with the territory for TMs). The fact that they don't seem on par to more typical mundane riggers until much into a game makes it harder to change these prejudices. An adept rigger with improved gunnery/driving does not get crap for increased dice pools, nor does a high edge rigger to get big dice pools at important times, but throw a diagnostics power onto your van and it's often eye roll city (even though with less investment at chargen you can make that adept/edge character and no one bats an eye). There is a notion that if you can't keep up without sprites, you are no good, and if you use sprites to keep up (which is how technomancers are mechanically built to play IMO), it's considered cheap.

[living]

in addition a rigger/hacker can use programs to, which a technomancer can only due submersion. the karma spend in submersion can the rigger/hacker spend in skills and race his core matrix/rigger skills to 7-8. in addition he got 6 essenz to spend, where the techno doesnt. even if he busy the rig III used, he spend 3,7 essenz and pays around 150k nuyen. he still got 1,2 essenz left to spend. and in the time the techno need to aquire the karma for subermsion (depending on GM / Playstyle) the hacker/rigger would nearly have aquired enough money for the rig III.

[KraakenDazs]

What's to stop the Technomancer from getting a RCC?

Or what i mean by that: How will that be less-efficient?

Neither of my calculations were including the RCC, only the rig. And while i'm not the type to go as far out as to argue that a submersion-rig will make a free technomancer-datajack and cables sprout from the mancer's temple, i don't see the issue with using a Submersion rig while also owning a RCC. Unless the jump from one-drone-to-next as a free action is what you mean by crucial tech.

And Submersion/Resonance makes a techno all-around better through his Resonance Library spells (Resist fade, cast higher Level powers, etc, which is actually an advantage magicians DONT have when it comes to drain resistance (but they do have foci and metas) , which is the big difference than a rigger or decker spending their nuyen and karma across numerous resources.

[living]

it's not clear. but imho you cant. the rcc generates your persona, you cant access it with an already existing persona. like you cant creat a persona with a commlink and then jump with that in the rcc. you can only have one persona at a time.

otherwise you could "jump" with your living persona in a cyberdeck and use the stats and programms of the deck...

[living]

And Submersion/Resonance makes a techno all-around better through his Resonance Library spells (Resist fade, cast higher Level powers, etc, which is actually an advantage magicians DONT have when it comes to drain resistance (but they do have foci and metas)

ja mages just take a fetish... sure if you get over resonanz 10 this may get an argument (not really because dram/centering are still way more powerfull, not talking about the lower basic drain). but till then you have to spend how much karma?

[Marcus Gideon]

it's not clear. but imho you cant. the rcc generates your persona, you cant access it with an already existing persona. like you cant creat a persona with a commlink and then jump with that in the rcc. you can only have one persona at a time.

otherwise you could "jump" with your living persona in a cyberdeck and use the stats and programms of the deck...

Correct... to an extent.

The TM cannot use their Living Persona in conjunction with the RCC in order to command or Jump in to the drones. They could however get a Control Rig implant (or the Echo to mimic a Rig) and actually plug into the RCC just like a Rigger would, thereby using the RCC generated Persona instead of their Living Persona. The downside being that they would have lost Essence with the Control Rig implant (unless they took the Echo), and they won't be able to use any of their Resonance abilities. If they're using the RCC to generate the Persona, it's going to be "mundane". They only get Resonance if they're using their Living Persona.

[FST_Gemstar]

Mirikon/Brackhaus: I still disagree with the PAN thing. You don't form a PAN with a persona, living or otherwise. You form it as an owner of the master device. I think you can still make an PAN with a commlink or RCC as a technomancer, just like anyone else. Could a technomancer with skinlink and a control rig echo control multiple drones or jump between them? I am not understanding why it is important to use your living persona when jumping around. Technomancers can "power down" their living persona and use device generated one (just no using resonance powers while doing so I guess. It wouldn't change machine sprites already running diagnostics. I don't know how much more resonance powers are going to do you when you are already jumped into a drone. )

[living]

yeah, but you would need the skinlink echo to if you use mind over machine. so that would be 4 submersions and you cant use any technomancer stuff (living persona, threadening, sprits). i dont see any reason someone would like to play that kind of build...

[living]

I think you can still make an PAN with a commlink or RCC as a technomancer, just like anyone else.

yeah, you could run a PAN on your commlink, but your living persona can not be part of it.

You are not a device, so you cannot be a slave or master, nor can you be part of a PAN or WAN.  p. 251 crb

[KraakenDazs]

At the same time Living, Resonance is to them paramount to everything else. More than a mage's magic attribute. Because it resists drain, defines level, adds bonuses to the rolls, etc.

Monofocus, and putting everything in Resonance and Submersion will create techno beasts (Which , for short term campaigns like Whiskeyjack mentioned, is an illusionnary possibility at times, but i also believe it doesn't take a 10 year campaign, a few steady months can also work). And through that, they can, as a complete byproduct, benefit from a secondary rigger role for free (or a few thousand nuyens for RCC if they want to be as much a rigger as a full rigger.). (Okay, piloting skill and gunnery might be a useful investment, but deckers would have the same issues.

By taking an early 30ish karma point "hit" and sacrificing a point of essence (and thus the r6 , 30karma worth Resonance point), that can all be covered with a decent skillwire as well, if karma-to-nuyen isn't allowed. Without having to spend for the Rig, it means better drones, better RCC, etc...

I will not argue they come into play gimped. I don't feel they remain that way *exceptionally* long, or are unviable. They could use some love in the form of mage-emulating mechanics though. Maybe some Resonance Library spells that could affect the meatspace tech faster for combat technomancy, or cyber-foci, or stuff like that though.