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Question about Owners/Personas

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UnLimiTeD

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« on: <12-26-15/1913:30> »
Quick question as I'm away from some books (Din't save all the pdfs I thought):

What exactly constitutes a person in the matrix?
Aka, if I have multiple SINs and multiple comlinks, can I be online multiple times through different devices, or no device at all, as the case may be?
Or is there a limit to that for probably good reasons?
Thanks in advance.
Still waiting on a Vector-Thrust Liminal Body.

Marcus Gideon

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« Reply #1 on: <12-26-15/1926:45> »
The concept of a Persona seems to have been left purposely nebulous and vague. Kinda like how they left the idea of Hosts undefined, until Data Trails came along and made them even more intangible.

Your Persona belongs to "you". It's not tied to any of your SINs, which means no matter how many fake SINs you have, you'll always use the same Persona. And b/c it's always the same Persona, you cannot log in on multiple devices at the same time.

And yet, if you are always the same you when you get online, it should be pretty easy for GOD to pin you down for illegal activites time after time. Yet for some reason, simply logging out and back in again is enough to reset your innocence.

It may have made more sense to tie Persona to a SIN, and make Overwatch Score a lingering rating. If you get Converged, it burns the SIN when it gets flagged for illegal activites, and you have to get another.
The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work…when you go to church…when you pay your taxes.

UnLimiTeD

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« Reply #2 on: <12-26-15/1940:01> »
Hmm, if I'm always "me", then what happens to identical twins?
And is there even any sense in using a burner comlink for risky calls then?
Still waiting on a Vector-Thrust Liminal Body.

Marcus Gideon

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« Reply #3 on: <12-26-15/1946:17> »
Well, the logical sense in why things work the way they work is...

Identical twins aren't 100% clones of each other. Even 100% clones aren't 100% after conception. If nothing else, their brain waves will be different, which may be all it takes since Personas are mostly applicable to VR when you're using DNI to interact.

The Persona is the profile you're using to log in. But you're still logging in with a certain device, which will have certain things associated with it as well. MAC address and the like. When you reboot and clear your OS, you're probably resetting the fake MAC and IP you used to get online. And apparently GOD doesn't really pay attention / isn't able to keep track of the Personas that do bad things, they're tracking the MAC address you were coming from. When you reset, they lose track. Even though it's the same Cyborg-Ninja Persona standing there a few minutes later.

So using a burner Comm is good for a few reasons. They are cheap, so you can physically throw them away when you're done. And you're not using your very expensive Cyberdeck if they happen to get in a few pot shots before you log out. Matrix damage is a bummer, and repairing your Deck would be time consuming. Plus, the Comm-code associated with each device doesn't change, so tracing the phone call to a Commlink in the trash can means they won't be tracing the call to your Cyberdeck in your backpack.

The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work…when you go to church…when you pay your taxes.

Novocrane

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« Reply #4 on: <12-27-15/0128:41> »
Your Persona belongs to "you". It's not tied to any of your SINs, which means no matter how many fake SINs you have, you'll always use the same Persona. And b/c it's always the same Persona, you cannot log in on multiple devices at the same time.

Yeah ... I don't buy it. Each Persona is a specific person in the matrix. To be a person in the sixth world is intimately tied to being a SINner. A high quality device like the PULSE Wave will create your base "personal icon from data" and a theme that corresponds to the "user’s home space". Lesser devices will have various themes, until you reach the simple Meta Link, which creates a base persona that looks like a "plain metahuman", ie; your SIN data, unadorned. Probably with your GSR trid mugshot pasted on, too.

Marcus Gideon

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« Reply #5 on: <12-27-15/0215:35> »
I'm not saying it's a good system, or that I endorse it at all. I'm just saying that this is how the system behaves, given what we know from the rules.

There is nothing in the book tying a Persona to a SIN. There is nothing tying a Persona to a device. Yes, there are thematic appearances based on the item you're using, but that just means the default avatar looks like a pirate or whatever. You can use Change Icon to alter that whenever you want. But the appearance of your Persona is irrelevant.

What we do know, is that Ownership (capital O) of devices is associated with your Persona. If someone steals your car, with your Commlink in the passenger seat, you can go into your office or the nearest public library, and log into the Matrix. You will log in with YOUR Persona, which will automatically be able to claim 4 Marks on both the car and the Commlink since you are the Owner of those devices. Then you will be able to Trace Icon on both, giving the authorities the location of your stolen property. Or you could simply Control Device on the car, forcing it to pull over and shut off. Heck, if you don't mind the mess, you could drive it into a brick wall and rapidly vacate the driver's seat.

So like I said, the idea of what a Persona really "is" and how it really works, seems to have been left purposely vague and nebulous. Kinda like how Hosts were some ominous, unknown "thing" that defied normal Matrix definition. And now that we've heard about the cloud computing and the underlying Foundation dreamscape... I kinda wish they would have just done some sensible stuff instead.

Go ahead and tie the Persona to the SIN. That way if you get Converged, you have to burn the SIN and get another. That identity is gone, reported for being a hacker.

Go ahead and call a Host a server. Give it a mainframe in a basement somewhere, with an antenna powerful enough to reach anywhere (thereby justifying the no-distance rules) but let it be a device instead of bogus cloud nonsense. Then hackers can hack it just like a device should, and Technomancers won't be completely useless since it's mystically impervious to Resonance (even though the Foundation sounds exactly like Resonance and TMs should be Gods in there).
The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work…when you go to church…when you pay your taxes.

CitizenJoe

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« Reply #6 on: <12-27-15/0603:07> »
The hacker archetype in the CRB doesn't have any SINs, real or fake.  How do you justify tying persona to SINs when the most relevant character doesn't have one?

UnLimiTeD

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« Reply #7 on: <12-27-15/0712:03> »
The archetypes are often horrible and unreasonable.
That in itself doesn't make much of a difference.
The question I wonder about is: Can I reasonably be online with two Personas, over two comlinks, in AR,using different Input devices like contacts+ gloves for one and DNI for the other?
Still waiting on a Vector-Thrust Liminal Body.

CitizenJoe

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« Reply #8 on: <12-27-15/0845:33> »
I could say the same thing about the rest of the rules and be equally valid.  We're trying to find an explanation that is consistent with all the data.


You can't simultaneously access the matrix under two persona with the same device.  The persona absorbs all the devices it is using into itself.  You can have multiple persona though.  And a device can access other persona through as yet undefined magic of digital persona knowing who the flesh and blood owner is.

Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #9 on: <12-27-15/0946:11> »
I feel like the Persona is supposed to be as unique and, in some ways, as much a part of you and unique as your aura pattern in the astral, or your DNA.

Not that this makes much sense when translated into your internet avatar.
Playability > verisimilitude.

Jack_Spade

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« Reply #10 on: <12-27-15/0951:18> »
It's imaginable that having trodes or a datajack will transmit your unique brain setup to form a unique persona.
But yeah, if you are only using gloves and image link, you should theoretically be able to form an alternate persona.
talk think matrix

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Novocrane

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« Reply #11 on: <12-27-15/1022:52> »
The hacker archetype in the CRB doesn't have any SINs, real or fake.  How do you justify tying persona to SINs when the most relevant character doesn't have one?
I don't attempt to justify or support using the CRB archetypes. The best thing you can say about them is that they help new players learn how the rules don't work.

@MG
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A persona is more or less what it sounds like: a person in the Matrix.
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In 2075, you’re just a number. A SIN (or its international equivalents) is what makes a mere metahuman into a real person.
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No aspect of modern or legal life can function without a SIN. Those who don’t have one can’t get a job, can’t buy food, can’t even walk down the street. To the system, these people don’t exist.
As yet, I don't think I've seen anything suggesting the various physical methods of sixth world authentication (keypad, swipe card, proximity card, memory string, biometric, or any
combination thereof) aren't in use for proving your identity. That said, in most cities you could likely perform a (partial) authentication through a dozen corporate or government owned cameras and other sensors from any street corner. That it works is as concrete as the minutiae of logging in / loading your persona need be.

Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #12 on: <12-27-15/1127:21> »
It's imaginable that having trodes or a datajack will transmit your unique brain setup to form a unique persona.
That would be cool, though it would be nice if the book included any level of clarity on the subject, even a throw-away one-liner.
Playability > verisimilitude.

Marcus Gideon

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« Reply #13 on: <12-27-15/1224:18> »
I feel like the Persona is supposed to be as unique and, in some ways, as much a part of you and unique as your aura pattern in the astral, or your DNA.

Not that this makes much sense when translated into your internet avatar.
I think this is the RAI... Your Persona is your very unique and one-of-a-kind Matrix aura / astral signature. You can't have more than one at a time, b/c you are still you regardless of what device you use to get online.

If you want another Persona to act with you online, run an Agent. Or play a TM and compile Sprites.
The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work…when you go to church…when you pay your taxes.

Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #14 on: <12-27-15/1247:18> »
Yeah, I feel the writers screwed up with the whole Device vs Persona thing. What happened to good old commcodes being tied to the device? Why is your Persona unique, but GOD can't use information about it to find you if you log in with a different device? The Matrix really just doesn't make too much sense.